NRMP Releases 2020 Charting Outcomes Data for US DO Seniors

[AnatomyGrey12]

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This was the reason for the merger. Competitive specialties. we were sold out for these spots, moving forward only the super star DOs will get them. I’m seeing this in ortho, ent, derm, optho, etc.

Derm and ophtho yes, but the ortho and ENT data show otherwise.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

Derm and ophtho yes, but the ortho and ENT data show otherwise.

We are 1 year into this, there is and will continue to be a shift toward MD program directors and students. It is already happening in ent. look at NJ and the PD for ascension

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

We are 1 year into this, there is and will continue to be a shift toward MD program directors and students. It is already happening in ent. look at NJ and the PD for ascension

And yet NJ continues to take a good number of DOs....

Auditions will remain king in these specialties, and this data gives credence to that idea. If an MD is going to audition at PCOM for an ENT spot then they deserve a spot as much as the DOs auditioning.

The DOs matching aren’t all superstars, very good applicants yes, but there are far too many 500s COMLEX applicants matching to claim that only DO superstars will match these specialties from here on out. Being a superstar obviously helps.

I maintain this data is about as good as we could have possibly hoped for in the DO world. The merger could very well turn out to be the best thing to ever happen to DO education.

 

[Sardonix]

"Wow that's some nice data that's easy to analyze and use to predict encouraging trends. Sure would be a shame if... someone were to... completely **** it up..."
-- Step 1 and maybe Level 1 being P/F

"Yeah... a real shame."
-- Whatever the hell will happen with COVID-19

 

[Doctor_Strange]

What's the overall impression of DOs matching into Ortho? Better than expected or worse? I was surprised at the board scores associated.

 

[deleted898021]

What's the overall impression of DOs matching into Ortho? Better than expected or worse? I was surprised at the board scores associated.

All specialties across the board were better, I mean derm was at 70% and ortho at 65, but when you look at it closely the qualified applicants mostly all matched. Only neurosurgery and plastics which are always hard for DO’s were bad..

 

[Doctor_Strange]

All specialties across the board were better, I mean derm was at 70% and ortho at 65, but when you look at it closely the qualified applicants mostly all matched. Only neurosurgery and plastics which are always hard for DO’s were bad..

Yeah, I just looked it over again. I guess I ask because I considered Ortho for a hot second last year and I had what now seems to be a decent Step 1 of 243 (but COMLEX was terrible at a 538) for Ortho. I suppose if I kept at it I may have had a decent shot, but it is what it is. Still excited for EM though all things considered!

As for the future of DOs, I am just really happy to see progress being made. And with COMLEX Level 1 likely to go P/F, I think small steps are being made for the better of the degree. Now if only those a-holes at NBOME could give us fourth years a freaking waiver for PE....

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What's the overall impression of DOs matching into Ortho? Better than expected or worse? I was surprised at the board scores associated.

I think the board scores show just how vital the audition is for ortho. A program will take a 575 over a 675 if the 575 does better on their audition.

 

[HoneyBadger3]

Any ideas on what happened with the sudden decrease in match rate for anesthesia? I didn't believe it at first, but our school said a few people with above average board scores and no red flags failed to match this cycle for anesthesia.

 

[Kardio]

Any ideas on what happened with the sudden decrease in match rate for anesthesia? I didn't believe it at first, but our school said a few people with above average board scores and no red flags failed to match this cycle for anesthesia.

It is more competitive in general. 96% and 89.6% for MDs in 2018 and 2020, respectively.

 

[Spectreman]

Can we just shout out the DO who matched neurosurg with a Level 1 between 400-450? Take some massive stones to be in the bottom of the barrel scores-wise and shoot for the moon.

Program director’s son, no doubt.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Any ideas on what happened with the sudden decrease in match rate for anesthesia? I didn't believe it at first, but our school said a few people with above average board scores and no red flags failed to match this cycle for anesthesia.

From a few people I know, anesthesia was their back up. I think its a pretty popular back for different competitive specialties since it was always considered very uncompetitive.

 

[HoneyBadger3]

From a few people I know, anesthesia was their back up. I think its a pretty popular back for different competitive specialties since it was always considered very uncompetitive.

Yea it's always been the backup for competitive surgical residencies and even GS, so nothing new. In fact I spoke to some current PGY-3 and 4 who originally applied EM and SOAPed into anesthesia. Just concerned since 2018 data showed only 2 DOs with step 1 >220 went unmatched... not nearly the case this cycle and with ~300 more applicants....

 

[Spectreman]

From a few people I know, anesthesia was their back up. I think its a pretty popular back for different competitive specialties since it was always considered very uncompetitive.

Agreed with this I know people applying GS and GAS or even OBGYN and GAS.

 

[Spectreman]

If anesthesia was their 2nd choice speciality, they are not included in the anesthesia data

View attachment 314769

So what kind of reasons do you think are what kept the high scorers from matching? Over shot the programs like Stanford and crap? Plus weird personalities or whatever?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

So what kind of reasons do you think are what kept the high scorers from matching? Over shot the programs like Stanford and crap? Plus weird personalities or whatever?

I know someone with a 240s who applied to like 20 anesthesia programs, all of them university based. Ended up matching with 7 or so interviews, but I could easily see someone like that slipping off the end of their rank list.

 

[ritts]

I know someone with a 240s who applied to like 20 anesthesia programs, all of them university based. Ended up matching with 7 or so interviews, but I could easily see someone like that slipping off the end of their rank list.

I know of someone (not personally) who hit 250s and fell to 13th on their rank list. Maybe a poor interviewer but still

 

[Neopolymath]

Poor matching in anesthesiology recently is multifaceted. Objectively, more people are applying to the field as primary choice AND as backup. Anecdotally, poor advising, particularly for DO applicants, really ****ed people up the past two years. It's just one of those fields with different advice for MDs and DOs and the internet doesn't necessarily make the distinction for naive people reading SDN or reddit for the first time. It's also a field that was deceptively competitive due to the number of spots to applicants in the past and the number of ****ty programs giving it an illusion of being easy to match. I now know a decent chunk of people who applied to programs way above their actual competitiveness or did a lot of aways at unrealistic places and got courtesy interviews. You had people last year with like 10 university interviews but none of those programs had any intention of ranking the students to match apparently.

I feel like there was a theme there. It's also going to be more of an issue as more anesthesia programs become ****tier and ****tier training wise.

 

[trundlethegreat]

Any ideas on what happened with the sudden decrease in match rate for anesthesia? I didn't believe it at first, but our school said a few people with above average board scores and no red flags failed to match this cycle for anesthesia.

It is more competitive in general. 96% and 89.6% for MDs in 2018 and 2020, respectively.

If anesthesia was their 2nd choice speciality, they are not included in the anesthesia data

View attachment 314769

The last point is important to take into account. Despite there being 44 more anesthesia positions in 2020 than in 2018, there were 335 more applicants. So, that's why the applicant-per-position ratio was higher: 1.24 in 2020, 1.09 in 2018; with a higher ratio of primary DO applicants applying to anesthesia, with 16.1% of DOs accounting for the total applicant pool in 2020, whereas that number was 14.7% in 2018.

All of this is in the context of a nearly equally-competitive applicant pool as defined by USMLE performance, so while I think more people are applying more realistically than in years past, I do believe people on the higher end of quality for less-competitive specialties, and vice versa, have switched to what was traditionally thought of as "mid-competitive" specialties. This could certainly be driven by the phenomenon Neopolymath is describing. We don't know the minutiae of the data to that level, but its reasonable to assume a reversion to the mean in 2022, with other mid-competitive specialties like DR or IM/Peds being affected similarly.

 

[dj-Roomba]

What advice does anyone for a 3rd year interested in anesthesia considering the 2020 charting outcomes? I have 246/641 and one abstract. Working on getting involved in some projects

 

[Neopolymath]

What advice does anyone for a 3rd year interested in anesthesia considering the 2020 charting outcomes? I have 246/641 and one abstract. Working on getting involved in some projects

You are going to be fine. Do some aways. Secure good letters and make a broad and balanced program list!

 

[trundlethegreat]

What advice does anyone for a 3rd year interested in anesthesia considering the 2020 charting outcomes? I have 246/641 and one abstract. Working on getting involved in some projects

The match rate for DO students with a >=240 was 97.4% (76/78). Get another case report and present it at an anesthesia conference, don't bomb Step 2, apply to a healthy mix of programs, and crush a few aways and you'll basically be a shoo in.

 

[giguerex35]

Mostly agree. I’ll push back slightly with the obvious exception: if you’re qualified, know that’s what you want to do, and have made those connections then by all means go for it. What’s foolish is believing you’re guaranteed to match even if you do everything right and not applying with a backup plan. While >70% of these people aren’t matching into these fields every year, we don’t know how many of those were being smart in their application strategy and still matched somewhere, either to a TY or another specialty. I mean, one of the people who matched NSG this year ranked one program and I’d guess they were the one with a <220 step 1. This business is still a who knows you business, and if you have those connections, then go for it. I just think too many people put faith in their CV and don’t think critically about what the data shows year after year as you describe.

any idea how to make a connection so good that you match nsurg with a step 1 not anywhere near being close to 250 other than being a PDs kid becasue dam 220 is low for nsurg and a DO and only ranked one program (assuming it was all the same person of course)

 

[Spectreman]

any idea how to make a connection so good that you match nsurg with a step 1 not anywhere near being close to 250 other than being a PDs kid becasue dam 220 is low for nsurg and a DO and only ranked one program (assuming it was all the same person of course)

Again, only ranked 1 program because no doubt this is a PDs kid or something.

 

[slowthai]

Again, only ranked 1 program because no doubt this is a PDs kid or something.

I honestly find that so strange. The type of people that go for neurosurg are extreme type As...and they typically want to prove that they're the best. I could understand this happening in a field like derm or something.

 

[trundlethegreat]

any idea how to make a connection so good that you match nsurg with a step 1 not anywhere near being close to 250 other than being a PDs kid becasue dam 220 is low for nsurg and a DO and only ranked one program (assuming it was all the same person of course)

Again, only ranked 1 program because no doubt this is a PDs kid or something.

Yup. Have a different birth lol.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

221 D.O step 1 score aiming for anesthesia. This years match data is not having me feel good at all.

Use interactive charting outcomes for more data. DOs with 220-229 apply gas between 2016-2020 had a 92% match rate. Getting more competitive for sure based on this year but best to get more data and keep this years trend in mind when applying (ie apply broadly, multiple auditions etc)

Tableau Public

public.tableau.com

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Use interactive charting outcomes for more data. DOs with 220-229 apply gas between 2016-2020 had a 92% match rate. Getting more competitive for sure based on this year but best to get more data and keep this years trend in mind when applying (ie apply broadly, multiple auditions etc)

Tableau Public

public.tableau.com

This year is more important though because of school expansion and inclusion of former AOA programs.

 

[Billroth_III]

Loaded question and not sure if there is a definitive answer but how much different do DOs score on average compared to MDs?

 

[slowthai]

Loaded question and not sure if there is a definitive answer but how much different do DOs score on average compared to MDs?

Average step for DOs was 228. Average for MDs was 234. This is according to the latest Charting the Outcomes.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Loaded question and not sure if there is a definitive answer but how much different do DOs score on average compared to MDs?

Average step for DOs was 228. Average for MDs was 234. This is according to the latest Charting the Outcomes.

If every DO had to take Step I suspect the average would be 215-220. Do not underestimate the bottom of the DO student pool, I think they would be able to get to the point of passing, but it wouldn't be by much.

 

[slowthai]

If every DO had to take Step I suspects the average would be 215-220. Do not underestimate the bottom of the DO student pool, I think they would be able to get to the point of passing, but it wouldn't be by much.

Yeah, like someone said before, only ~60% take step currently, so it's definitely not very representative. For reference, there are about 19,300+ MD seniors and 6,500+ DO seniors.

 

[Throwaway2702]

.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I'm having a hard time interpreting the data for Peds, anyone have insight on that?

Do you like peds? Then congrats, you'll match.

 

[Giovanotto]

If every DO had to take Step I suspects the average would be 215-220. Do not underestimate the bottom of the DO student pool, I think they would be able to get to the point of passing, but it wouldn't be by much.

Honestly that's optimistic. There are DOs that don't pass COMLEX. I'd put the average closer to 205-215ish.

 

[DameJulie]

Does anyone have a list on the new MD/DO schools who will graduate their first class in the next few years?

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Does anyone have a list on the new MD/DO schools who will graduate their first class in the next few years?

List of medical schools in the United States - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

MD: Nova MD, Mayo (AZ), CUSM, Kaiser, U of IL Urbana-Champaign, U of NV Las Vegas, Hackensack Meridian, NYU-Long Island, TCU-UNTHSC, U of Houston, Washington state U.

DO: ARCOM, UIWSOM, RVU-SU, PCOM-SGA, CHSU, SHSU, ICOM, VCOM-LA, LECOM- Elimira.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Honestly that's optimistic. There are DOs that don't pass COMLEX. I'd put the average closer to 205-215ish.

For the weaker schools their averages would absolutely be in that 205-215 range, but I think the higher scorers would still keep the average flirting with 220ish.

Now this is assuming the status quo, but with the all the academically weak new schools entering the board taking pool then that will drag it all down.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

This year is more important though because of school expansion and inclusion of former AOA programs.

True but there were only like 10-12 AOA gas programs that made the merger. So it was a small addition (unlike EM where 60 AOA programs converted). But still this year should be the primary data source I’m just saying it’s important to not ignore the last 5 years of DO data in conjunction with this year when guiding residency decision.

 

[Cath Up]

Average step for DOs was 228. Average for MDs was 234. This is according to the latest Charting the Outcomes.

I think it's worth clarifying for the people that won't look at the actual data that this is for matched MD vs matched DO

 

[12jas]

List of medical schools in the United States - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

MD: Nova MD, Mayo (AZ), CUSM, Kaiser, U of IL Urbana-Champaign, U of NV Las Vegas, Hackensack Meridian, NYU-Long Island, TCU-UNTHSC, U of Houston, Washington state U.

DO: ARCOM, UIWSOM, RVU-SU, PCOM-SGA, CHSU, SHSU, ICOM, VCOM-LA, LECOM- Elimira.

ICOM's first class is 2022

 

[Coltuna]

List of medical schools in the United States - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

MD: Nova MD, Mayo (AZ), CUSM, Kaiser, U of IL Urbana-Champaign, U of NV Las Vegas, Hackensack Meridian, NYU-Long Island, TCU-UNTHSC, U of Houston, Washington state U.

DO: ARCOM, UIWSOM, RVU-SU, PCOM-SGA, CHSU, SHSU, ICOM, VCOM-LA, LECOM- Elimira.

For the sake of "completeness," KCU is adding about 150 new grads per year starting in 2021 with their Joplin campus graduating its first class.

 

[BlueBleck]

Not sure anyone mentioned it yet, but I was surprised to see how few FM applicants were taking step1. And furthermore how well they do despite that.

375 people took step1. 859 people did not. Match rates are comparable between the two.

 

[iforget2]

Not sure anyone mentioned it yet, but I was surprised to see how few FM applicants were taking step1. And furthermore how well they do despite that.

375 people took step1. 859 people did not. Match rates are comparable between the two.View attachment 315122

Does "score unknown" necessarily mean they didn't take it? Genuinely wondering.

 

[BlueBleck]

Does "score unknown" necessarily mean they didn't take it? Genuinely wondering.

That's what i've always assumed, but I've never seen it spelled out anywhere.

 

[ohmanwaddup]

Does it matter at all if my step score is potentially very different from my complex? I got a 231 on step, but only a 523 on comlex. As I go through charting outcomes, with some specialties there seems to be occasionally quite a bit of flux in match rate between these two scores. I’m leaning towards Med/Peds right now ( though tbh after starting rotations idk if I’m smart enough to do anything in medicine lol)

 

[deleted898021]

Does it matter at all if my step score is potentially very different from my complex? I got a 231 on step, but only a 523 on comlex. As I go through charting outcomes, with some specialties there seems to be occasionally quite a bit of flux in match rate between these two scores. I’m leaning towards Med/Peds right now ( though tbh after starting rotations idk if I’m smart enough to do anything in medicine lol)

Doesn’t matter step 1 always looked at first l, especially after the merger.. now if you barley passed and got like a 401 then it might raise some eyebrows but that’s not the case for you.

 

[ohmanwaddup]

Doesn’t matter step 1 always looked at first l, especially after the merger.. now if you barley passed and got like a 401 then it might raise some eyebrows but that’s not the case for you.

Good to hear, I was pretty disappointed when I got my comlex

 

[deleted898021]

Good to hear, I was pretty disappointed when I got my comlex

What’s a comlex? Every other prorgam director.... your good lol

 

[sdhere1234]

Does it matter at all if my step score is potentially very different from my complex? I got a 231 on step, but only a 523 on comlex. As I go through charting outcomes, with some specialties there seems to be occasionally quite a bit of flux in match rate between these two scores. I’m leaning towards Med/Peds right now ( though tbh after starting rotations idk if I’m smart enough to do anything in medicine lol)

Those are almost identical scores in terms of %tile