Number of Programs???

[Eire]

So.....I am tryin to figure out how many programs to apply to. I am a US FMG (from the UK). Mostly honors(Pre and clinical) with a couple of awards thrown in top 5 % of my class but only 219/89 on Step one (Step 2 in 3 weeks) 3 excellent letters + one SLOR from a well known PD where I did an elective( I have not seen it but I was told it was top notch). No research, 6 years as a paramedic before med school. How many would you apply to, esp the PG1's out there.
I am not gepgraphically restricted but I would prefer a 1-3 setup as I am a little older than the avg applicant! ANY Ideas would be a big help! I have been told by some 20-25 but I dont know???? Do I have a chance to begin with???

Thanks

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[PimplePopperMD]

It's impossible to ever say... my feeling is, why limit yourself? This is a one-time expense, applications for residency, which will pay in the (very) long run.

If this is what you want to do, then why not apply to 40 programs? 45? There's no magic number, but I'd say that after you start getting interviews, you can limit yourself at that point (since there's quite a bit more cost involved, and the time involved as well is greater). Generally, people are comfortable with 10-12 interviews.

With numbers like yours, it may be difficult to get a 50% positive response for interviews. but then again, if you're applying to less competitive programs, it may be that you'll have a 100% response...

long way to say that it's hard to respond to the question. apply to a bunch, and turn down interviews after you reach a comfortable level. better that way than the other way (sweating because you only have five interviews, or whatever number)

best of luck!

 

[Captain Solo]

What are considered the less competitive and more competitive programs?

 

[FoughtFyr]

Originally posted by PimplePopperMD
With numbers like yours, it may be difficult to get a 50% positive response for interviews. but then again, if you're applying to less competitive programs, it may be that you'll have a 100% response...

Numbers like what? The OP looks to me to be in good shape. Granted the step 1 score is not astronomically high - but it is above the national published average (215). A few awards, top 5% of the class, previous work experience and good letters of rec., on what planet is he/she going to have a problem?

According to the SAEM article on selection criteria for EM residencies the OP should do fine...

- H

 

[tonem]

Originally posted by Captain Solo
What are considered the less competitive and more competitive programs?

That is a better question than the usual what are the best programs. In my opinion, the answer is based on reputation (mostly subjective) and location, location, location. The west coast, the southwest, east coast, and anywhere else that a majority of people consider to be desireable places to live. Which leaves the mid-west, deep south, michigan, texas. These places all have great programs but people seem to be less inclined to want to live there. Some exceptions to this rule (and I'm sure ther are more that are slipping my mind) are Pitt, Cinncinatti, and Christiana Care. Often listed as some of the top programs by reputation but in less than "hot" locations.


I do have to defend Pittsburgh after having spent four years there...it's no San Francisco or Boston but it does have it's charm.

 

[tonem]

Originally posted by FoughtFyr
According to the SAEM article on selection criteria for EM residencies the OP should do fine...

- H

I don't think the OP will have any problems either but (everyone has a big but*)...


I think the criteria cited in both that article and in a survey published in the Annals of Emergency Medicine a few years ago are highly biased. Despite what EM PD's will have you believe I don't think their selection criteria is much different from that of any other reasonably competitive specialty. Snagging candidates from highly regarded schools with high board scores makes the program look good.



* any PeeWee Herman fans out there?

 

[FoughtFyr]

Originally posted by tonem
Snagging candidates from highly regarded schools with high board scores makes the program look good.

True, but to suggest that a 50% response rate would be difficult because of a 219 step 1 is (hopefully) unrealistic. If it is not then FP here I come as I only have a 210!

"I know you are but what am I?"

- H

 

[tonem]

FoughtFyr,

I think PPMD was probably pretty much right on target in his post. I also think that this time next year you'll be an EM intern. Let me explain.

I have a background that is very similar to yours and I actually had a lower Step I score. My original plan for my ERAS application was to only apply to EM programs west of the Rockies. Based on my board score, my EM advisor diplomatically suggested that I throw a little wider net. So I did. I included Massachusetts, Virginia/DC and North Carolina (my wife was adamant about the deeper South and Midwest). In the end I wound up far short of the 50% response rate PPMD suggested (6 interviews out of 30 something applications -- if it helps you I interviewed at USC, Kern County, Stanford, Pittsburgh, BU, and UMass). I suspect (or hope) I would have had a higher response rate if I had also applied in the midwest, Michigan, and the Deep South, etc...). The bottom line is that in spite myself I did match. My advice is to throw a wider net than I did and you'll have a more comfortable safety margin than I did.



"I know you are...." I'll take that as a yes

 

[nibblenuts]

As far as getting interviews there is really no rhyme or reason as far as who gets interviews where. Some people with "lower end" credentials get interviews at really strong programs presumably because whoever is reading the application sees something that they like. Maybe the reviewer and the applicant are both from the same state or maybe both are Eagle Scouts or maybe the applicant has done a lot of volunteering.
So don't limit your applications too heavily against "competitive programs".

As far as the traditionally most difficult programs to get an interview, probably Denver, Cincinatti, Carolinas, and anywhere in California (especially if you don't have Cali ties). Also Univ. of Arizona is tough to score an interview because they only interview like 50 people.
Less competitive programs are probably anywhere that didn't fill last year (check scutwork.com). Everywhere else is somewhere in between. Best thing to do is to get a great advisor who is in touch with the residency admissions process.
Good luck.
-NN





P.S. There is only ONE true captain of the mellinium falcon.

 

[Eire]

Thanks for the help. I was/am a little nervous because as I stated, I am a FMG, although I am a US citizen, w/out visa worries and I am from a UK school, which I have been told is not as much as a hinderance as some other places, I have some gret letters ( several from surgery..including a trauma sub-i) but with the competitiveness of EM, I think that is still a worry.
Thanks for the help

 

[sgufmg]

I would apply to at least 60 programs. I am a US FMG and therefore, have first hand experience at the process. It is SIGNIFICANTLY different for a FMG vs. US graduate, I can assure that. You need to really stand out in some way. btw, I matched at my #1 choice. Good luck!

 

[EMIMG]

I had a very similar board score on step I and did considerably better on step II. Despite this, I applied to 47 programs, got only 4 interviews (2 wait lists) and am still waiting to hear from about a half dozen to a dozen programs despite the fact that I am now finishing my last year of residency. I too was a US resident who went to a foreign medical school. What upset me was I was on interviews where I was talking with US med students and telling them what I was told I needed on my step I and II to apply to a given program and they told me that they never could have applied if that was the requirements for US students. And, I easily had these requirements...yet, he applied to a similar number of programs and had about 20 interview offfers.

The bottom line is you only need 1 interview to match. Once you are granted an interview, some of the stereotypes will minimize; however, they will still be present. Remember, as an IMG, you will be judged not only against the applicant pool as a whole, but also against the other IMGs....you may be in the top 10 of applicants; however, if there are 3 other IMGs that rank higher than you, you will probably be bumped down significantly.

If you are not geographically restricted, there are plenty of options. Look on websites to see who tend to be the most foreign friendly. There are some schools that will not even look at IMGs. As a rule of thumb, many in NY tend to be accepting of IMGs as do the ones in Michigan. And, Michigan is a great place to train for emergency medicine......it is essentially where it has some of its strongest roots and is the home of SAEM and former home of ACEP.

Best of luci.

 

[DrQuinn]

Yeah, don't limit yourself in applying. I'm a DO, and have *some* prejudice, not nearly as much as IMG/FMGs, but am still not "on par" with the MD applicants. I ended up applying to 40+ programs. I don't really regret it, it gave me a real good chance to see lots of different EM programs, as wel as making me feel much better hwen I got more htan a handful of interviews.

Good luck.

Q, DO

 

[PimplePopperMD]

Originally posted by FoughtFyr
Numbers like what? The OP looks to me to be in good shape. Granted the step 1 score is not astronomically high - but it is above the national published average (215). A few awards, top 5% of the class, previous work experience and good letters of rec., on what planet is he/she going to have a problem?

According to the SAEM article on selection criteria for EM residencies the OP should do fine...

- H

On the planet earth.

If you would care to place wagers on this, go for it. the true point is that the percentage doesn't matter if the OP applies to enough programs to have a comfortable number of interviews. honestly, i don't even remember how many programs i applied to, i really don't... i just know that i stopped accepting interviews at a certain number, around 14...but who knows why a program will decide not to interview?

Further, as an FMG, the OP is at a distinct disadvantage. Above avg board scores will not cut it in many programs, who will want to see higher scores from fmgs; double standards... many other programs will be very pleased with the score, and send an invitation.

the intent of my post is to instruct the op to not assume a 50% return, and to cast a wide net, because if you want EM, then stack the odds in your favor!

best of luck!