nurse anethesists

[whynotme?]

Hi,
I am curious about the program for nurse anethesists. Is this a MA degree? In what capacity do these professionals function? Do they work with anesthesiologists? What is the average salary? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

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[Pebbles]

Whynotme,

I am cursious to where you are in your degree, are you currently attending nursing school? Usually Nurse anethesists obtain their RN/BSN(4yr) first. Then, they will apply to the Nurse Anethesist program(2yr). After completing the two program they will undergo a internship/residency (may be different per state). Then, you would need to take your license exam.

Nurse anethesists work with the anesthesiologists but are more independent than usually thought. The nurse anethesists typically will run the patient status during the surgury with the anesthesiologist occasionally popping in to check on the progress.

Now, salary. Nurse Anethesists are paid very well and you will be able to pay off your loans and live comfortable.

The future for nurse anethesists is very bright. Due to certain issue happening in capital hill it may be that nurse anethesists are completely independant. Meaning there is the potential Anesthesiologists may fade. Hopefully they don't but it may happen.

See my post Gov't involvement under the allopatric forum at: http://www.studentdoctor.net/bbs/Forum2/HTML/000379.html

 

[Sherry]

Pebbles again is very thorough in her post, but I would recommend a book that is a must read for any potential CRNA: "Watchful Care: A History of America's Nurse Anesthetists" by Marianne Bankert for a more general idea of the profession.

You must already have a BSN or equivalent and at least one year of nursing experience, preferably ICU or ER. The programs are all master's programs and they are very competitive (most classes only accept 10-12 candidates per year. You will be required to take either the GRE or GMAT depending on which program you are applying to.

Whynotme; it sounds like you are a little lost and are seeking "alternatives" to the "what if I don't get into med school scenario". There are no easy answers and I would suggest you take some time and research (which you are doing now) and make a few basic decisions first. Nurses and physicians do work together in the hospital environment, but the career paths are entirely different and being a good nurse (or a happy one)does not mean you will be a good doctor(or a happy one) and vise/versa. Once you evaluate your own goals (objectively) you will be better able to FOCUS on a particular career path and once you have focus you will succeed, whichever path you choose.
Good Luck!!!

 

[whynotme?]

Sherry,
A "little lost " is an understatement!

I started out my education in nursing and then left the program when my fiance' transferred to another school ( which did not have a nursing school)...I have some major decisions to make and am trying to decide what area I am most interested in.
Pebbles also,,,,,thanks for the great info..I will definitely check out the book... I appreciate the response from both of you...great info

 

[dthankins]

A great field.
Isn't CNA quite competitive?
Isn?t there a requirement that you work as a BSN for like 2-3 yrs?
As for the money:
I am a PT and a patient of mine who was a CNA told me he has been out for 3 yrs and makes 100K working 40 hrs/wk!!!

 

[dthankins]

After reading another post I realize I may have made an error in referring to Nurse Anesthesists as CNA's. Is that correct? What is the abrev.?

 

[nursejenny]

CRNA

------------------
Jenny Henderson, RN, BSN
SDN Communications, Inc.
The Student Nurse Network
e-mail [email protected]

 

[kundun]

I wholeheartedly agree that medicine is a true team effort. However, let's not forget who the quarterback, field general, captain of the ship, or any other analogy you come up with me...the physician is THE leader of the health care team. I have no problems consulting with other health care professionals regarding the care of a patient. However, when it comes to the ultimate decision...the buck STOPS here. That's just the way I will approach my future career. I apologize if this offends anyone.

 

[Sherry]

kundun,

Then I would suggest that you inform all your colleagues to get out into the rural and underserved areas AND LEAD!!! Right now in most rural/underserved communities IF they have health care at all, it is being provided by Family Nurse Practitioners and Physician's Assistants. Most are supervised by a "ghost" physicians hundreds of miles away if any at all, and all would appreciate the "guidance" and support of a true caring professional physician.

I am sure that all of these communities would love to have physicians in their flock. Please use your passion and potential leadership ability to assist these communities who are in dire need, and bring your friends. All will be welcome I'm sure.

Originally posted by kundun:
I wholeheartedly agree that medicine is a true team effort. However, let's not forget who the quarterback, field general, captain of the ship, or any other analogy you come up with me...the physician is THE leader of the health care team. I have no problems consulting with other health care professionals regarding the care of a patient. However, when it comes to the ultimate decision...the buck STOPS here. That's just the way I will approach my future career. I apologize if this offends anyone.

 

[dthankins]

kundun,

How white of you to "consult" with those other professionals before laying down the law the way a good doctor should!

Are you really so egotistical to think that as a doctor you will know more about all of the various health care professions than all the expert professionals in those fields?

Given the name of this thread, I'll start with anesthesia....unless you are an anesthesiologist, you will not know more than a CRNA knows about anesthesia!!!!!

Hmmm, maybe a physiatrist would know more about rehab than a physical therapist.

Only a psychiatrist MIGHT know more about psychology than a PhD psychologist.

Some pediatricians would know more than a speech language pathologist knows about language development.

I could go on and on, but the point is docs know a lot more about a lot of things, but NO ONE knows it all -- chill a little and realize that other healthcare professionals will HELP you do the right thing to best help the patient.

And remember, Dr. quarterback, that Dan Marino never won the super bowl because football, like healthcare, is a team sport!

 

[kundun]

I definitely want to apologize if my post made me sound like an egocentric prick. That is definitely what I am not. I also want to say that I KNOW that a physician does not know it all and that he/she MUST rely on the help from others in the health care team. However, I still believe that in anything in life...there must be a leader. I believe that the leader in the health care TEAM is the physician.

 

[RN2PHD]

If a leader is in place during a patient's care and a leader hat must be worn by one involved, I would hope that the leader designated would be the patient himself.

 

[rn29306]

Given the name of this thread, I'll start with anesthesia....unless you are an anesthesiologist, you will not know more than a CRNA knows about anesthesia!!!!!

Physicians only have to request that anesthesia be provided. Do surgeons dictate anesthesia, even if given by a CRNA - no. While the surgeon is indeed "captain of the ship" for the patient and can request or order antibiotics to be given, request more paralytics, blah blah, blah, anesthesia is still anestheisa, and that would be CRNAs or MDAs realm.
Are surgeons more liable to be implicated in lawsuit if anesthesia is provided by a CRNA vs an anesthesiologist? No. Infact, in a court of law, CRNAs are held to the same standards that anesthesiologists are held to.

 

[rn29306]

Hi,
I am curious about the program for nurse anethesists. Is this a MA degree? In what capacity do these professionals function? Do they work with anesthesiologists? What is the average salary? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

go to aana.com

all your questions will be answered. try to find the "michael pine study" and read what was studied, the findings, the ASA's response, and the rebuttal by dr pine to the A$A. i think you may be suprised at the findings.

 

[nitecap]

The Leader in the team is the person who is most knowledgable and highly trained for the situation at hand. If a pt is crumping and needs to be intubated, rescusitated and the only people there are a CRNA and Dermatologists then the CRNA is the leader here. It the pt needs Surgery then the Surgery is leader. If pt in acute renal failure the nephrology the leader. If pt needs acute intervention and the NP following the pt for that specific reason is on hand then they are the leader.

Assuming physicians are the overall leader for all situations is false and you who said that must have slim practiioner expereince at best. The leader is the person best qualified on hand to handle the present problem or situation, and has the balls to make a descision and live with that decision if it ends up with a poor outcome. A leader motivates people, runs things smoothly at hectic times. People bust assss to work for a real leader.

I have seen people with a million years of experience not lead a team effectively in intense situation. Leadership also encompases a persons interaction with others, and commnication style. Do you think you can be an effective leader if you are dick and no one respects you. No not at all.

 

[billydoc]

That's right...not just a hundred, a thousand percent agreed.
Amen

The Leader in the team is the person who is most knowledgable and highly trained for the situation at hand. If a pt is crumping and needs to be intubated, rescusitated and the only people there are a CRNA and Dermatologists then the CRNA is the leader here. It the pt needs Surgery then the Surgery is leader. If pt in acute renal failure the nephrology the leader. If pt needs acute intervention and the NP following the pt for that specific reason is on hand then they are the leader.

Assuming physicians are the overall leader for all situations is false and you who said that must have slim practiioner expereince at best. The leader is the person best qualified on hand to handle the present problem or situation, and has the balls to make a descision and live with that decision if it ends up with a poor outcome. A leader motivates people, runs things smoothly at hectic times. People bust assss to work for a real leader.

I have seen people with a million years of experience not lead a team effectively in intense situation. Leadership also encompases a persons interaction with others, and commnication style. Do you think you can be an effective leader if you are dick and no one respects you. No not at all.

 

[sunnyjohn]

The Leader in the team is the person who is most knowledgable and highly trained for the situation at hand. If a pt is crumping and needs to be intubated, rescusitated and the only people there are a CRNA and Dermatologists then the CRNA is the leader here. It the pt needs Surgery then the Surgery is leader. If pt in acute renal failure the nephrology the leader. If pt needs acute intervention and the NP following the pt for that specific reason is on hand then they are the leader.

Assuming physicians are the overall leader for all situations is false and you who said that must have slim practiioner expereince at best. The leader is the person best qualified on hand to handle the present problem or situation, and has the balls to make a descision and live with that decision if it ends up with a poor outcome. A leader motivates people, runs things smoothly at hectic times. People bust assss to work for a real leader.

I have seen people with a million years of experience not lead a team effectively in intense situation. Leadership also encompases a persons interaction with others, and commnication style. Do you think you can be an effective leader if you are dick and no one respects you. No not at all.

Wow, common sense in a potential MDA v CRNA thread. Good post.

 

[lizzied2003]

Realizing upfront this was a CRNA quesiton I must digress..

In our hospital we have a 'rapid response team'. When a patient is noted to have a change in condition (shock, hypotension, high fever, desaturation) the team in paged and respond. The members include...a respiratory therapist, a nurse from ICU, and a PA. We have at all times 2 full time intensivists...they do not respond. IF it is determined the patient needs the unit they are callled to get involved in the case. The team composition was determined by the Intensivists who have worked so closely with the midlevels all these years. In fact..our 'house officer' is a PA or NP. that's 24/7. They are able to intubate, place central lines, dialysis caths, run the code, and pronounce death...you get the idea. (I learned to intubate in the OR. I'm not sure if it was a anesteiologist or a CRNA who taught me. I still became successful in the technique and the process..) The very doctors who used to (and perhaps still do) think that mid levels are not a suitable replacement are the same guys who get to sleep most nites because the midlevel is keeping watch. This has happened because of motiviation and the fact that the physicians 'leaders' in our hospital recognize that being a doctor doesn't mean you are are most qualified. It's being the person who knows the most or has the most experience with any given situation. I work now with a brilliant ivy league doc. He is also the kindest person i've met and often uses the people around him to make the best decisions and is likely the most respected doc in our community and hospital. He has told me that some of the younger doctors will not be successful until they realize that medicine is a very humble profession. As an NP there have been days i've been consulted for renal failure and thought 'how could the doctor not have figured this out on his own'. The next day i've had my own patient and needed to call on a consultant and realized the answer was there all along i just didn't see it. We all need each other and the patient needs everyone...from the lady who keeps the room clean to the person who makes sure the doses of antibiotics are correct. I would also say that leader would be too strong a word and in fact would say the there is often someone who 'manages' the case. I've found that the manager is often the insurance company.

 

[sunnyjohn]

Realizing upfront this was a CRNA quesiton I must digress..

In our hospital we have a 'rapid response team'. When a patient is noted to have a change in condition (shock, hypotension, high fever, desaturation) the team in paged and respond. The members include...a respiratory therapist, a nurse from ICU, and a PA. We have at all times 2 full time intensivists...they do not respond. IF it is determined the patient needs the unit they are callled to get involved in the case. The team composition was determined by the Intensivists who have worked so closely with the midlevels all these years. In fact..our 'house officer' is a PA or NP. that's 24/7. They are able to intubate, place central lines, dialysis caths, run the code, and pronounce death...you get the idea. (I learned to intubate in the OR. I'm not sure if it was a anesteiologist or a CRNA who taught me. I still became successful in the technique and the process..) The very doctors who used to (and perhaps still do) think that mid levels are not a suitable replacement are the same guys who get to sleep most nites because the midlevel is keeping watch. This has happened because of motiviation and the fact that the physicians 'leaders' in our hospital recognize that being a doctor doesn't mean you are are most qualified. It's being the person who knows the most or has the most experience with any given situation. I work now with a brilliant ivy league doc. He is also the kindest person i've met and often uses the people around him to make the best decisions and is likely the most respected doc in our community and hospital. He has told me that some of the younger doctors will not be successful until they realize that medicine is a very humble profession. As an NP there have been days i've been consulted for renal failure and thought 'how could the doctor not have figured this out on his own'. The next day i've had my own patient and needed to call on a consultant and realized the answer was there all along i just didn't see it. We all need each other and the patient needs everyone...from the lady who keeps the room clean to the person who makes sure the doses of antibiotics are correct. I would also say that leader would be too strong a word and in fact would say the there is often someone who 'manages' the case. I've found that the manager is often the insurance company.

More common sense. I am in tears.

 

[Monika]

Excellent Lizzied!

What a breath of fresh air! Hearing the truth is such a refreshing experience isn't it? Especially around these parts.

Thanks for the reminder!

 

[zenman]

I definitely want to apologize if my post made me sound like an egocentric prick. That is definitely what I am not. I also want to say that I KNOW that a physician does not know it all and that he/she MUST rely on the help from others in the health care team. However, I still believe that in anything in life...there must be a leader. I believe that the leader in the health care TEAM is the physician.

No offense taken by me as I think you might have the law on your side if I'm not mistaken.

 

[jwk]

Kinda funny - y'all drug up a 5-yr old thread and ran with it.

 

[sunnyjohn]

Kinda funny - y'all drug up a 5-yr old thread and ran with it.

Drug up... hehe

 

[lizzied2003]

last post by OP...November 2001....
holy smokes.
it really is a five year old thread.

 

[sunnyjohn]

last post by OP...November 2001....
holy smokes.
it really is a five year old thread.

Your post was still excellent lizzied2003. Nitecap's was also.


Maybe those two posts should be referenced whenever someone starts teh MDA v CRNA debate.

 

[nebrfan]

Interesting side note: I recently reading in the American Journal of Nursing (Volume 105(5), May 2005, pp 28-29) that they are entertaining the idea of adding a semester of study to CRNA programs and granting a clinical doctorate. According to Frank Maziarski, MS, CLNC, CRNA, president of the American Association of Nurse Anesthetists, "The move from master’s degrees to doctorates may be less of a problem for nurse anesthetists than for other advanced practice specialties; many nurse anesthetist programs involve 30 months of course work and clinical experience. 'Some programs may just need to add on another semester in order to change to a doctoral program'"

 

[lizzied2003]

thanks .

 

[tupac_don]

I wholeheartedly agree that medicine is a true team effort. However, let's not forget who the quarterback, field general, captain of the ship, or any other analogy you come up with me...the physician is THE leader of the health care team. I have no problems consulting with other health care professionals regarding the care of a patient. However, when it comes to the ultimate decision...the buck STOPS here. That's just the way I will approach my future career. I apologize if this offends anyone.

Yes spoken like a true general!

 

[tupac_don]

I definitely want to apologize if my post made me sound like an egocentric prick. That is definitely what I am not. I also want to say that I KNOW that a physician does not know it all and that he/she MUST rely on the help from others in the health care team. However, I still believe that in anything in life...there must be a leader. I believe that the leader in the health care TEAM is the physician.

I think kundun is just trying to say, that somebody must lead, when a desicion has to be made. While it is true that many allied health professionals help, they are not ultimately responsible for the patient, the physician is. I think kundun is just trying to say, that physician is the leader and has the ability to delegate responsbility to other professionals for certain aspects of his/her care. Quite frankly I don't think that anyone else in the health care system has the training to conduct all aspects of patients care like a physican does. Moreover, I don't think that many allied health professionals would want the extent of responsiblity for the patient that physican has. However, many people get touchy when others say that a physician is a leader. Well he is, he does the most and is ultimately responsible for the patient. And keep in mind the psychologist might know more about psychology then a non-psychiatrist physician, but that's about it. They don't know much about medical or surgical management, or even basic anatomy or physiology. Doctor as the leader can delegate the responsibility and doctors do that, in certain aspects they are not as well versed. So there must be a leader like kundun said. I think confusion occurs when doctors look down upon other health professionals when indeed they help them alot and allow doctors do what they do best, which is diagnose, and come up with a treatment plan. But undisputedly the doctor is a leader when it comes to medically related issues. However, the ultimate leaders in a large hospital are CEO's, not doctors, however they deal with business, not medical management issues.

 

[Orchard]

Physician = Team leader, one responsible for any and all decisions, one who will be held liable for any and all things that go wrong.

Nurse= Follower of physician protocols/instructions, provider of care dictated by physicians.

Jeez.....why can't everyone just realize and accept this.

 

[nitecap]

Not exactly true in all situations when talking about anesthesia. CRNA's are the sole providers in 70 counties in Texas alone. There are no protocols, its you there at thats it. No one to call if you need anything, no Anesthesia MD's for maybe miles. Get your facts straight before you step up to the plate kid.

 

[Orchard]

Not exactly true in all situations when talking about anesthesia. CRNA's are the sole providers in 70 counties in Texas alone. There are no protocols, its you there at thats it. No one to call if you need anything, no Anesthesia MD's for maybe miles. Get your facts straight before you step up to the plate kid.

My facts are straight, kid. I feel sorry for those folks in those 70 counties, though.

 

[zenman]

My facts are straight, kid. I feel sorry for those folks in those 70 counties, though.

So what's the safety record of CRNA's? Are you feeling sorry because it's good or bad?

 

[rn29306]

My facts are straight, kid. I feel sorry for those folks in those 70 counties, though.

Google or Yahoo! the Michael Pine, MD study on outcomes of patients with regards to anesthesia providers. Also read the ASA's response and Dr. Pine's response back to the ASA.

 

[Orchard]

Google or Yahoo! the Michael Pine, MD study on outcomes of patients with regards to anesthesia providers. Also read the ASA's response and Dr. Pine's response back to the ASA.

Propaganda.

 

[zenman]

Propaganda.

Where does "evidence-based" end and "propaganda" begin?

 

[OzDDS]

Google or Yahoo! the Michael Pine, MD study on outcomes of patients with regards to anesthesia providers. Also read the ASA's response and Dr. Pine's response back to the ASA.

If someone did a study showing that PAs who were allowed to do coronary artery bypass surgery (alone/unassisted) had no less patients die on them then fellowship trained cardiothroacic surgeons... Would you then choose to have the PA do your surgery over the surgeon?

 

[Orchard]

Check it out; another victory for patients!

http://www.asahq.org/Washington/OBAdecision.pdf

 

[zenman]

If someone did a study showing that PAs who were allowed to do coronary artery bypass surgery (alone/unassisted) had no less patients die on them then fellowship trained cardiothroacic surgeons... Would you then choose to have the PA do your surgery over the surgeon?

Well, that's kinda a loaded question. Surgery is a mechanic skill; the difficult part in my opinion is the before and after skill that requires a heap of thinking ability.

 

[Ross434]

Physician = Team leader, one responsible for any and all decisions, one who will be held liable for any and all things that go wrong.

Nurse= Follower of physician protocols/instructions, provider of care dictated by physicians.

Jeez.....why can't everyone just realize and accept this.

Hey in many places an NP fuctions as *ultimately responsible* for their patients. There's no physician supervising them either.

 

[nebrfan]

Hey in many places an NP fuctions as *ultimately responsible* for their patients. There's no physician supervising them either.

Correct me if I'm wrong...but I think that NPs still must have a 'collaborating physician' that they must direct complicated cases which are outside of their limited scope of practice.

 

[zenman]

Correct me if I'm wrong...but I think that NPs still must have a 'collaborating physician' that they must direct complicated cases which are outside of their limited scope of practice.

Not in all states. However, when I finish NP school, I'd certainly refer out when appropriate.

 

[OzDDS]

Well, that's kinda a loaded question. Surgery is a mechanic skill; the difficult part in my opinion is the before and after skill that requires a heap of thinking ability.

(?) I'm not quite sure what you mean. Of course it is a loaded question.. How is surgery any different than anesthesia in that regard? It takes an incredible amount of thinking (and proper training) to manage and be responsible for a medically comprimised/unstable patient undergoing extensive surgery. One that can most appropriatly be attained through a formal education in medicine and years of specialty training.

Although a nurse can be trained to perform the "mechanics" of anesthesia delivery and can handle simple cases probably without much difficulty. Most patients if given the choice.. as I was pointing out would probably prefer a doctor with a more extensive training background in the area managing their life support systems... especially if med compromised or highly unstable having a cabg or the like.

 

[rn29306]

Although a nurse can be trained to perform the "mechanics" of anesthesia delivery and can handle simple cases probably without much difficulty....

Since you haven't had alot of experience with CRNAs and I don't know jack about dentistry other than my best friend just graduated......Here's an analogy for you:

Couldn't you train a damn monkey to scrape tarter off people's teeth or what ? Can't be that hard right, scrape here, shot there. WTF is the big deal?

That analogy has about as much truth behind it in regards to dentistry as your above statement to anesthesia / CRNAs so stick to your field and I'll stick to mine. We have over 100 years of proven track record indeed doing "simple cases" and much, much more and don't plan on quitting providing anesthesia anytime soon.

 

[OzDDS]

Couldn't you train a damn monkey to scrape tarter off people's teeth or what ? Can't be that hard right, scrape here, shot there. WTF is the big deal?

We DO!! They are called Hygenists.. and by the way.. most of them are quite easy on the eye to boot!


(Im only kidding)

 

[OzDDS]

We have over 100 years of proven track record indeed doing "simple cases" and much, much more and don't plan on quitting providing anesthesia anytime soon.

So explain to me the need for anesthesiologists?

Why don't we just eradicate all ACGME anesthesiology training programs and and just allow CRNAs to take their place if you think there is no difference whatsoever between the two..

 

[zenman]

So explain to me the need for anesthesiologists?

Why don't we just eradicate all ACGME anesthesiology training programs and and just allow CRNAs to take their place if you think there is no difference whatsoever between the two..

I don't think there is a not a need for anesthesiologists. However, one must focus on the "need." When there is a need, CRNAs, NPs, PAs, Acupuncturists, PT assistants, OT assistants, etc., etc., seem to appear to fill that need.

 

[///M5]

Whynotme,

I am cursious to where you are in your degree, are you currently attending nursing school? Usually Nurse anethesists obtain their RN/BSN(4yr) first. Then, they will apply to the Nurse Anethesist program(2yr). After completing the two program they will undergo a internship/residency (may be different per state). Then, you would need to take your license exam.

Nurse anethesists work with the anesthesiologists but are more independent than usually thought. The nurse anethesists typically will run the patient status during the surgury with the anesthesiologist occasionally popping in to check on the progress.

Now, salary. Nurse Anethesists are paid very well and you will be able to pay off your loans and live comfortable.

The future for nurse anethesists is very bright. Due to certain issue happening in capital hill it may be that nurse anethesists are completely independant. Meaning there is the potential Anesthesiologists may fade. Hopefully they don't but it may happen.

See my post Gov't involvement under the allopatric forum at: http://www.studentdoctor.net/bbs/Forum2/HTML/000379.html

can anyone explain to me the future of anethestits and the future of it. The link doesnt work btw.

 

[sunnyjohn]

My facts are straight, kid. I feel sorry for those folks in those 70 counties, though.

Why do you feel sorry for them?

I think the folks in those places are glad that those NP's and CRNA's are willing to stay in those communities and practice. Not all sick people live in NYC, L.A., Chicago, Philadelphia, Miami, Dallas and Houston.

I would rather they have the care of a trained CRNA or NP than no care at all.

 

[mx_599]

Physician = Team leader, one responsible for any and all decisions, one who will be held liable for any and all things that go wrong.

Nurse= Follower of physician protocols/instructions, provider of care dictated by physicians.

Jeez.....why can't everyone just realize and accept this.

I second that...

How are you doing Orchard??