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A lot of times it's just because somebody is defying their authority. A lot (not all) police officers go into law enforcement because they like to be in control. If people don't obey them, then things like this occur. They can't handle somebody resisting them.

The courts have overwhelmingly sided with plaintiffs in cases against medical personnel who obtain specimens or perform body cavity searches. We are not agents of the court, and as such, we have no legal authority to comply.
 

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Very poor judgement on the part of the officer.

Basically, a man fleeing police caused a head on collision resulting in his death and causing injury to the other driver, the patient in this case.

An officer attempted to obtain blood from the victim of the police-chase related accident without the patients consent, and was denied.

There is no reason why police should be drawing blood from this patient and the nurse was correct in denying the officers request.

Most of us have probably been in this position before (usually involving a detective in a homicide/narcotics case and an intubated trauma patient) but I have never had anyone persist in drawing blood after telling them that it's against policy without a warrent/consent.
 

evilbooyaa

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What is the officer going for by drawing blood? Why is an officer drawing blood at all? Is that in their job description? Can I now slap handcuffs on people and arrest them?
 
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Yeah, they have some sort of cop phlebotomy program in Utah I guess. Maybe that helps the chain of custody? Here the nurse draws the blood and the cop seals it in some evidence thingy.


What is the officer going for by drawing blood? Why is an officer drawing blood at all? Is that in their job description? Can I now slap handcuffs on people and arrest them?
 

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I think many of us would refuse to draw the sample or authorize someone else to draw the sample. Who would actually try to stop the police from drawing a sample on their own though?
 
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I think many of us would refuse to draw the sample or authorize someone else to draw the sample. Who would actually try to stop the police from drawing a sample on their own though?
The patient is intubated and sedated. If healthcare personnel do not protect the patient from assault (and make no mistake, a warrant-less blood draw is assault) then what good are we to a patient? To put it another way, if the patient were my family member I would say that the healthcare facility has a duty to protect the patient. I think I would do the same, in the nurse's position.
 

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My first impression here, and what infuriates me the most about this, is that why the nurse who is standing there, trying to do the right thing by the patient, has some !%@$#-ing ADMINISTRATOR on the phone, essentially throwing her into harms way, when she's face to face with a guy with a gun. Although he's a cop, and in uniform and by that we expect him to behave responsibly, he's still a guy with a gun, and what does the administrator do?

He's pushing the defenseless nurse to defy the cop based on some pointy-headed policy created by suits in a boardroom, a cop who's armed to the teeth and already ticked off. How outrageous and spineless.

I can almost guarantee you that the nurse is thinking as the time, "I know damn well I'll lose my job, if I don't follow administrative policy to a tee. I know damn well they'll throw me under the bus in a second and I'll lose my job, if I deviate AT ALL. So I'm going to get them on the phone and get them involved, because they'll NEVER back me up if I don't." So, I sympathize with her on this front, because she was trying to enforce an insane policy that demands a nurse block law enforcement. What fresh hell is that?

It's absolute administrative madness, that what it is.

Now I myself, personally, would have taken the occasion to disappear to the doctors lounge for a tall drink of caffeine and a pop tart, and a camp-out on the crapper, long enough to let the situation "take car of itself," if you know what I mean. But my passive aggressive a$s-covering approach may not be right for everyone. And my impression here is the nurse was trying to do the right thing, and that the cop was too, until he took it too far. It's my guess that if he simply walked in the room and took the blood, no one would have stopped him, the nurse included, but you never know. It's a shame the nurse was put in this situation and that hospital administrators create cultures that make this all too likely to happen, when crossed with a cop with a temper problem.

As far as the cop goes, I think he handled it poorly. Whether his handling of it was technically "legal" I don't know. It may well have been. BUT, he'd be in a much stronger position to have simply walked in the room and taken the blood he will certainly claim he was entitled to draw. If a nurse or hospital security then tries to physically stop the cop, then you have an entirely different situation, where the officer looks much more favorably and the hospital personnel much less so.

Where the chips will fall on this legally, and who will lose their job and who will keep theirs, I don't know. But it takes me back to residency, when I specifically remember having this discussion with one of my attendings. Her advice was, "If a cop ever comes in and wants to draw blood, let them. If it turns out it was drawn illegally or is admissible in court, that will fall on them, not you."

After all, there's very little to be gained by refusing to complying with an angry guy with a gun, whether a cop, or otherwise.

Words to live by.
 
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doctalaughs

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The patient is intubated and sedated. If healthcare personnel do not protect the patient from assault (and make no mistake, a warrant-less blood draw is assault) then what good are we to a patient? To put it another way, if the patient were my family member I would say that the healthcare facility has a duty to protect the patient. I think I would do the same, in the nurse's position.
Sure, technically it's assault but no way it's going to end up as admissible evidence or cause grave bodily harm to the patient. Just tell the cop calmly it's illegal and then report it as your duty to the patient. No sense in possibly getting shot/roughed up over it. Your job protecting patients does not involve fighting cops.


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Just yesterday, I was talking to a neighbor about local political dust ups from 20 and 30 years ago with police pulling over ambulances going code 2 ("red", "hot", whatever you call with lights and sirens) for violations of the NY V&T (Vehicle and Traffic laws).

Again, "fish stinks from the head on down". In my hospital, this isn't even an issue. When the State Police bring in a suspected DUI, they go right to the lab. If this guy did this, it's on him, and his captain and the chief of police.
 

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My first impression here, and what infuriates me the most about this, is that why the nurse who is standing there, trying to do the right thing by the patient, has some !%@$#-ing ADMINISTRATOR on the phone, essentially throwing her into harms way, when she's face to face with a guy with a gun. Although he's a cop, and in uniform and by that we expect him to behave responsibly, he's still a guy with a gun, and what does the administrator do?

He's pushing the defenseless nurse to defy the cop based on some pointy-headed policy created by suits in a boardroom, a cop who's armed to the teeth and already ticked off. How outrageous and spineless.

I can almost guarantee you that the nurse is thinking as the time, "I know damn well I'll lose my job, if I don't follow administrative policy to a tee. I know damn well they'll throw me under the bus in a second and I'll lose my job, if I deviate AT ALL. So I'm going to get them on the phone and get them involved, because they'll NEVER back me up if I don't." So, I sympathize with her on this front, because she was trying to enforce an insane policy that demands a nurse block law enforcement. What fresh hell is that?

It's absolute administrative madness, that what it is.
That's a good point. You're absolutely right that a good administrator would be in the ED, helping defuse the situation without making the poor nurse do it. She's just reading back hospital policy - she's just the messenger at this point. I'd like to think that the administrator who was on the phone with her ran down to the ED to help with the situation, but I'm also sure that that's probably not what happened.
 

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The plot thickens. Another officer, talking to the nurse on this second video, says (paraphrasing) "You tried to prevent us from doing our jobs. You told me 'No, no, no, I'm not letting you go over there.'" [around 14:00; need to turn volume way up and put up to your ear, still hard to hear]. He seems to be alleging she went out of bounds (before either video started recording, possibly?) in trying to actually prevent them from collecting evidence, as opposed to merely standing there, talking on the phone.

If the nurse did in fact, try to prevent the officers from going to get evidence, and if they had probable cause in some way, that could change things in a big way. Actual law is going to trump any hospital policy, regardless of how strongly the nurse felt, and regardless of what hospital lawyer thought proactively.

If there's nothing more to the story than you see in the videos, it's pretty damning against the officers. If however, there is more to the story, or perhaps she tried to actually intimidate or prevent the officers from collecting legally obtainable evidence, that would speak more against the nurse's actions. I suspect this may get more complicated. In the era of cell phone and body cam videos of these incidents, often times what happens before, or after, the video starts and stops can be as important as what's captured on the video.

www.liveleak.com/view?i=9e7_1504237270
 

Birdstrike

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At 15:30 or so of the second video, the more calm headed officer seems to indicate (paraphrasing) "You guys [the hospital] seem to always us your policy, to protect yourself from liability, to prevent us from collecting evidence that's required by law."

Is there perhaps, a hospital policy in place, constructed by lawyers for the hospital, designed to protect the hospital from liability, that prevents law enforcement from legally obtaining evidence they're required to obtain?

Were the officers "trying to do their jobs" as much as the nurse?

Was the nurse "obstructing justice" as the second officer alleges, and trying to prevent lawful evidence collection, by saying "No, no, no!" and physically or otherwise trying to prevent officers from following the law?

I don't know, but the officer in the second video here, seems very convinced of that. He also alleges there's a pattern of the hospital's legal team interfering with law enforcement.

Was the nurse an innocent bystander, abused by overzealous officers?
Or was she overzealous in applying a hospital policy that prevents law enforcement from legally collecting evidence?

I don't know. Stay tuned.

Www.liveleak.com/view?i=9e7_1504237270
 
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Siggy

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A very brave and principled nurse. Hats off to her.

That cop should absolutely be fired. What a *******.

Well, he should be in jail. Assaulting a health care provider is a crime, and a tin badge shouldn't be legal immunity.
 
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Siggy

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If the nurse did in fact, try to prevent the officers from going to get evidence, and if they had probable cause in some way, that could change things in a big way. Actual law is going to trump any hospital policy, regardless of how strongly the nurse felt, and regardless of what hospital lawyer thought proactively.
Well, considering that the event happened in late July and pretty much everyone at the agency and the citizens review board agree that the demand for blood and the subsequent arrest was unlawful, I wouldn't be holding my breath if I was you.
 

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That's a good point. You're absolutely right that a good administrator would be in the ED, helping defuse the situation without making the poor nurse do it. She's just reading back hospital policy - she's just the messenger at this point. I'd like to think that the administrator who was on the phone with her ran down to the ED to help with the situation, but I'm also sure that that's probably not what happened.
Exactly. Administration's more and more looking like the bad guy here, or at least one of them.

The more I watch this second video, the more I question my first impression of this situation and the more it reminds me of the culture of fear hospital administrations often times inflict upon staff, particularly nurses, with a constant fear of termination from arbitrary deviation from arbitrary policies. It also wouldn't surprise me if a hospital legal team, jaded from bogus lawsuits by patients falsely accusing them of "false imprisonment," "illegal search and seizure" and the like to attempt to milk the system, could have created a policy that placed their own monetary interests above the legitimate needs and duties of law enforcement. If so, then it's possible that administration could have created a culture of fear among staff to "enforce policy at all costs" or face immediate termination.

I'm not sure, but between the nurse, the police and the hospital administration, I wonder if there was a policy created that was so rigid, it was impossible for staff to enforce without having to choose between termination, or getting arrested.

With hospital administrations, nothing is too cut-throat for me to believe is possible.
 
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Birdstrike

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Well, he should be in jail. Assaulting a health care provider is a crime, and a tin badge shouldn't be legal immunity.
You may be right, but watch the second video, and listen very closely to what the non-arresting officer says as he attempts to fill in details of the story that may not have been caught on video. He's alleging the nurse attempted to prevent a completely legal search and seizure. If they had probable cause, and if she did during the time not caught on video, it completely turns this on its head. This is going to get very interesting.

Would be nice if someone with first hand knowledge could anonymously post some details.
 
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No, the nurse stopped an assault on the patient and was thus assaulted herself. Utah law is clear that the police could not take blood from this patient. The detective should be facing at the minimum misdemeanor assault charges.

I have seen the advice on Facebook, forums, etc to call the police station to ask if XYZ is against the law for things like having a marshmallow roast in the backyard, shooting a BB gun in the backyard, etc. Bad advice. Most police don't know the law much more than any other person. They just do what their department tells them they should do.
 
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Siggy

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You may be right, but watch the second video, and listen very closely to what the non-arresting officer says as he attempts to fill in details of the story that may not have been caught on video. He's alleging the nurse attempted to prevent a completely legal search and seizure. If they had probably cause, and if she did during the time not caught on video, it completely turns this on its head. This is going to get very interesting.

Would be nice if someone with first hand knowledge could anonymously post some details.
Strange, because again, the police chief and the citizen review board are saying it was a completely unlawful search and that the use of force was not justified.

 

el_duderino

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I was initially at least mildly skeptical that the cops were totally overstepping their bounds.

Not so much now.
 

BobBarker

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Strange, because again, the police chief and the citizen review board are saying it was a completely unlawful search and that the use of force was not justified.

Neither cop knew the law.
 

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Strange, because again, the police chief and the citizen review board are saying it was a completely unlawful search and that the use of force was not justified.

Okay, thanks for bringing me up to speed. I didn't have this information and hadn't seen this statement yet. There's no need to speculate further as the Police Department has admitted they screwed up, are taking responsibility and have apologized, along with fully exonerating the nurse. As a result they will end up paying out a nice settlement, but it sounds like they did the right thing by fessing up. Cased closed.
 
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filhodeinferno

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You may be right, but watch the second video, and listen very closely to what the non-arresting officer says as he attempts to fill in details of the story that may not have been caught on video. He's alleging the nurse attempted to prevent a completely legal search and seizure. If they had probable cause, and if she did during the time not caught on video, it completely turns this on its head. This is going to get very interesting.

Would be nice if someone with first hand knowledge could anonymously post some details.
But earlier the second officer suggests that they get a warrant, and the assailant officer says that that isn't possible because they don't have PC. PC=probable cause. The officers admitted that they didn't have that in the videos.
 

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But earlier the second officer suggests that they get a warrant, and the assailant officer says that that isn't possible because they don't have PC. PC=probable cause. The officers admitted that they didn't have that in the videos.
I didn't have all the information when posting that. The cops screwed up, admitted it, and apologized. End of story.
 

el_duderino

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I didn't have all the information when posting that. The cops screwed up, admitted it, and apologized. End of story.
It's not really the "end" of the story. The cop wrongfully harassed and then arrested a woman for no reason. The story will "end" when the officer receives appropriate punishment and the department is appropriately trained.
 

Siggy

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I didn't have all the information when posting that. The cops screwed up, admitted it, and apologized. End of story.
Because over a month after the incident it finally became public and the department has a PR disaster on it's hands. Apparently the public doesn't like it when a police officer assaults a nurse and the only punishment is that he gets kicked off the sweet blood draw team.
 
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The patient is intubated and sedated. If healthcare personnel do not protect the patient from assault (and make no mistake, a warrant-less blood draw is assault) then what good are we to a patient? To put it another way, if the patient were my family member I would say that the healthcare facility has a duty to protect the patient. I think I would do the same, in the nurse's position.
Conjuring the emotional response of the colloquial use of assault in association with a legal definition is disingenuous. Refusing to grant permission, not facilitating it, documenting it, and reporting it is one thing. Moving to physically stop an officer is crossing into a whole other arena that I don't feel falls into the jurisdiction of healthcare professional.
 
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Birdstrike

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Then why did you post all that?
I had never heard anything of it until a few hours ago and was responding to is as if it was a breaking story, knowing virtually nothing about it, while other people on here had the advantage of having a month head start. In other words, posting before I knew all the facts.
 
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sb247

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Conjuring the emotional response of the colloquial use of assault in association with a legal definition is disingenuous. Refusing to grant permission, not facilitating it, documenting it, and reporting it is one thing. Moving to physically stop an officer is crossing into a whole other arena that I don't feel falls into the jurisdiction of healthcare professional.
It falls into the jurisdiction of a human. Taking blood, actually stabbing someone, that you have no right to be doing so to is a big deal. So is the theft of their actual body fluids and the violation of rights. It's all a real big deal.

I'm perfectly comfortable supporting someone physically standing between the officer and the patient in that case. The only reason they shouldn't is fear of losing their job, or fear of the irrational officer harming them......both are also serious but I can support the decision to weigh out the options and decide the principle of the matter is more important than your job or safety
 

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Siggy

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Detective Payne has now been fully suspended and the DA is doing a criminal investigation....good things.

Unfortunately it took a month, and the video released and going viral, before the SLCPD fully suspended him. Also, they have suspended a second officer, but the SLCPD spokesperson wouldn't say if it was LT Tracey who (apparently) ordered Detective Payne to arrest Nurse Wubbles.
SLC mayor, police chief apologize for officer who arrested nurse; criminal investigation to follow
Good things? It took almost everyone in the US yelling "Shame! Shame!" for them to do the right thing. The right thing would have been to do this in the first place. This "sorry" means about as much as a kid whose hand just got caught in the cookie jar.
 

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It's not really the "end" of the story. The cop wrongfully harassed and then arrested a woman for no reason. The story will "end" when the officer receives appropriate punishment and the department is appropriately trained.
Don't forget the lawsuit from the nurse
 

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I had never heard anything of it until a few hours ago and was responding to is as if it was a breaking story, knowing virtually nothing about it, while other people on here had the advantage of having a month head start. In other words, posting before I knew all the facts.
Lol
 
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Boatswain2PA

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Good things? It took almost everyone in the US yelling "Shame! Shame!" for them to do the right thing. The right thing would have been to do this in the first place. This "sorry" means about as much as a kid whose hand just got caught in the cookie jar.
Yes, the full suspension and criminal investigation is a good thing.

And it's obvious I agree with you about the delays.
 

e30ftw

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Just to add to the above post; I've had nothing but great working relationships with the police who provide security for our ED.

Being an officer is a difficult, dangerous job that doesn't pay too much and results in getting forced into a lot of sketchy situations for the public's good.

In the modern age all it takes is a lapse in judgement and a well-timed video to nullify a long career of good service.

Hopefully this is just something that is quietly resolved and future interactions between police and ED staff remain as pleasant and professional as they've always been..
 

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Just to add to the above post; I've had nothing but great working relationships with the police who provide security for our ED.

Being an officer is a difficult, dangerous job that doesn't pay too much and results in getting forced into a lot of sketchy situations for the public's good.

In the modern age all it takes is a lapse in judgement and a well-timed video to nullify a long career of good service.

Hopefully this is just something that is quietly resolved and future interactions between police and ED staff remain as pleasant and professional as they've always been..
"Lapse in judgement"?

Otherwise known as a crime when committed by non-police.
 

e30ftw

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"Lapse in judgement"?

Otherwise known as a crime when committed by non-police.
You've quoted an isolated phrase out of context.

Refer to post #4.

The sentance, "In the modern age all it takes is a lapse in judgement and a well-timed video to nullify a long career of good service." refers to the general underlying theme of social media over the past 5 years to encite mis-judgement of law officers without an investigation into the specifics of the incident.

My opinion on this specific case was already made clear in post #4; the officer mishandled the situation.
 
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jw3600

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I think another issue is that even if he was lawfully correct in taking blood and arresting her, the manner in which he did was it inappropriate and borderline illegal. She seemed like a very calm, reasonable person. He basically lunged at her while telling her she's arrested. Pretty pathetic.
 

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I think another issue is that even if he was lawfully correct in taking blood and arresting her, the manner in which he did was it inappropriate and borderline illegal. She seemed like a very calm, reasonable person. He basically lunged at her while telling her she's arrested. Pretty pathetic.
Unless he punched her or otherwise physically harmed her, I have no idea what would be illegal about rushing towards a person in order to arrest them.
 

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It seems as though some people want to highlight the idea that the nurse will bring a civil claim against the police officer. One quote is that she "will never have to work again," or she will get a "nice settlement," with the implication that her claim is somehow a scam or windfall. This attitude sucks, and is not based on facts. Trust me, you would sue the police for falsely and violently arresting you, same as anyone would. And you would be furious when your settlement tops out at $25,000 or so, like the nurse's will. But here people are, exasperated and practically saying she is lucky to have been falsely and violently arrested. Its kind of gross.
 

rabbott1971

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My first impression here, and what infuriates me the most about this, is that why the nurse who is standing there, trying to do the right thing by the patient, has some !%@$#-ing ADMINISTRATOR on the phone, essentially throwing her into harms way, when she's face to face with a guy with a gun. Although he's a cop, and in uniform and by that we expect him to behave responsibly, he's still a guy with a gun, and what does the administrator do?

He's pushing the defenseless nurse to defy the cop based on some pointy-headed policy created by suits in a boardroom, a cop who's armed to the teeth and already ticked off. How outrageous and spineless.

I can almost guarantee you that the nurse is thinking as the time, "I know damn well I'll lose my job, if I don't follow administrative policy to a tee. I know damn well they'll throw me under the bus in a second and I'll lose my job, if I deviate AT ALL. So I'm going to get them on the phone and get them involved, because they'll NEVER back me up if I don't." So, I sympathize with her on this front, because she was trying to enforce an insane policy that demands a nurse block law enforcement. What fresh hell is that?

It's absolute administrative madness, that what it is.

Now I myself, personally, would have taken the occasion to disappear to the doctors lounge for a tall drink of caffeine and a pop tart, and a camp-out on the crapper, long enough to let the situation "take car of itself," if you know what I mean. But my passive aggressive a$s-covering approach may not be right for everyone. And my impression here is the nurse was trying to do the right thing, and that the cop was too, until he took it too far. It's my guess that if he simply walked in the room and took the blood, no one would have stopped him, the nurse included, but you never know. It's a shame the nurse was put in this situation and that hospital administrators create cultures that make this all too likely to happen, when crossed with a cop with a temper problem.

As far as the cop goes, I think he handled it poorly. Whether his handling of it was technically "legal" I don't know. It may well have been. BUT, he'd be in a much stronger position to have simply walked in the room and taken the blood he will certainly claim he was entitled to draw. If a nurse or hospital security then tries to physically stop the cop, then you have an entirely different situation, where the officer looks much more favorably and the hospital personnel much less so.

Where the chips will fall on this legally, and who will lose their job and who will keep theirs, I don't know. But it takes me back to residency, when I specifically remember having this discussion with one of my attendings. Her advice was, "If a cop ever comes in and wants to draw blood, let them. If it turns out it was drawn illegally or is admissible in court, that will fall on them, not you."

After all, there's very little to be gained by refusing to complying with an angry guy with a gun, whether a cop, or otherwise.

Words to live by.
Seems like you could try to talk to the cop or do something instead of leave the nurse there to deal with it.
 
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