nurse arrested (but not booked) for trying to stop illegal blood draw

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Pick your battles. Is it really worth it to fight with the cops? As if talking with the administrators isn't painful enough, having to deal with potential months/years of legal garbage is even worse. I agree with Birdstrike. Tell the officer, "It's against our policy to authorize police to draw blood. Now I'm going to the Lounge for 10 minutes..."

In the grand scheme, is having a vial of blood "stolen" from you really that bad? Is having 1 extra butterfly need stick on top of the central lines, intubation, and several large bore IV's in a comatose patient really damaging? No, of course not.

Furthermore, if this guy is positive for meth and ETOH, I don't want him driving on the road. If he's negative, then great! -- he's an upstanding citizen.

Seriously, pick your battles!

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This is just sad to read. Really.

It isn't the administrator's fault. It isn't some "pointy-headed policy." It is rules about how to run a hospital so that patient rights are respected, and medical care is administered within the bounds of the law. The rules and policies are crafted by people much smarter than you, taking into account factors that you have never heard of. Your crass and uninformed speculation about these policies demonstrates total ignorance of the subject.

Yes you would run to the bathroom and hide, thank you for your honesty. And your advice is to just do what the officer says because else he might shoot you! Fortunately there are people in this country with courage, who stand up for their principles. Not you, but other people. What a total joke. "Just let them do whatever they want, because we don't care if its admissible or not," is that what you were taught by your attending? I bet your attending would soil herself if she knew you had this interpretation of what she said. Either way, your craven indifference to the prospect of your patient being stabbed and having her blood removed without consent or court order is straight out of 1984 or something.

Man, you need to get into your continuing medical education catalog and find some ethics classes. Like, right away. Your compass is pointing south. Sorry to hit you with both barrels, but I just found everything you wrote to be awful and wrong; see my earlier post as well. Have a nice day.

Please don't come to this forum with such insulting and inflammatory comments. You have no idea how "smart" Birdstrike is, his background, and you have no idea how smart the people who "crafted" these policies are.

In case you missed it, I'll spell it out for you. He's saying it's not worth it.

Yes -- stand up against Nazi Germany. Yes -- stand up against slavery. Yes -- stand up against England's oppressive regime. This is courageous.

Standing up against Policy 345.144a paragraph 4 in hospital bylaws. Not worth it.
 
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Obviously the cops were in the wrong, but why is it that in all of these videos the person being arrested is always struggling? Why is she resisting and screaming? How does this help?
 
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12 angry birds.
 
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Pick your battles. Is it really worth it to fight with the cops? As if talking with the administrators isn't painful enough, having to deal with potential months/years of legal garbage is even worse. I agree with Birdstrike. Tell the officer, "It's against our policy to authorize police to draw blood. Now I'm going to the Lounge for 10 minutes..."

In the grand scheme, is having a vial of blood "stolen" from you really that bad? Is having 1 extra butterfly need stick on top of the central lines, intubation, and several large bore IV's in a comatose patient really damaging? No, of course not.

Furthermore, if this guy is positive for meth and ETOH, I don't want him driving on the road. If he's negative, then great! -- he's an upstanding citizen.

Seriously, pick your battles!

I strongly disagree. This is the utmost importance. You, police, the public have no right to my blood, my property or my guns. You get a warrant or court order, then have at it. But no way in hell, would I stand for this BS in my ED. I fully support our PD and help them in any way I can, but this is too far.


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Unless he punched her or otherwise physically harmed her, I have no idea what would be illegal about rushing towards a person in order to arrest them.
Well, the officer needs probable cause that a crime occured in order to arrest her. "She didn't respect MY AUUTHHHOOORRRITTTIAAAH" isn't a crime.
 
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Please don't come to this forum with such insulting and inflammatory comments. You have no idea how "smart" Birdstrike is, his background, and you have no idea how smart the people who "crafted" these policies are.

In case you missed it, I'll spell it out for you. He's saying it's not worth it.

Yes -- stand up against Nazi Germany. Yes -- stand up against slavery. Yes -- stand up against England's oppressive regime. This is courageous.

Standing up against Policy 345.144a paragraph 4 in hospital bylaws. Not worth it.
Thanks
 
Unless he punched her or otherwise physically harmed her, I have no idea what would be illegal about rushing towards a person in order to arrest them.
Umm are you kidding?

edit: I understand tackling a violent or belligerent person while trying to arrest them. But someone you're arresting on some non violent obstruction charge? Try and use words like a human first.
 
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This is just sad to read. Really.... I just found everything you wrote to be awful and wrong

I strongly disagree. This is the utmost importance. You, police, the public have no right to my blood, my property or my guns. You get a warrant or court order, then have at it. But no way in hell, would I stand for this BS in my ED.

Then why did you post all that?

Thanks to all three of you, for your comments. I think we agree more than you think. Let me say again, that I agree, that the cop was wrong, the nurse was right. I agree with you. The cop was wrong, the nurse was right. Period. There is no "other side" to the story or other obfuscating information. You're right.

But I want to pose you with a hypothetical scenario:

You're halfway through you're next month's shifts, and buried in the middle of a 10 hour shift. You've ordered hundreds of blood tests and blood draws this month. So many, you can't count. You know you'll order hundreds more before the month is over. You'll order tens of thousands before you finish your career and you'll do so without an afterthought.

You have an unconscious trauma patient. There's no history, he was just found injured by the side of the road and is unconscious. No one knows what actually happened. Unbeknownst to you, the arresting officer seen in the first video, who's been fired, has moved to a different community and has gotten a new job with a new policy department: Your police department. You've got 15 patients waiting in the waiting room, you're way behind buried in CT scans, lab results, X-rays to check, lacerations to sew up, monitors are blaring and the ED is dancing with chaos. It's 3 in the morning. You're so tired you don't even notice it. As usual.

Right at the moment you really need a break, and a quick and easy case like a kid with an earache, in walks the unbalanced cop, bald on top with shaggy long hair on the sides and back, with an anger, impulse control and police brutality problem. You're in the doorway to your unconscious patient's room. The patient is behind you. The cop is in front of you. You smile at him. He doesn't smile back. You're between him and what he wants: Your patient's blood. He wants to add one more blood draw to your shift, month and the tens of thousands that will occur on your watch and during your career.

He looks at you and says, "I need to draw blood on your patient."

You calmly and confidently say, "You can't do that. Hospital policy says you need a warrant." You've already drawn blood on your unconscious patient and he didn't seem to notice or mind, but one more is unnecessary and it's clearly against the patient's rights. You're right and you know you're right.

The officer, looking more than a little perturbed, says very impatiently, "I don't care what 'hospital policy' says. I'm getting blood from your patient and I'm tired of you people in the ED getting in our way. Get out of the way or I'll arrest you. Or maybe you'll end up in a bed next to this guy fighting for your life to or worse. I've done it before and I'll do it again. My advice to you, is to step out of my way." Then he brings his right hand above, but not touching, the Glock 19 in the holster at his right side.

You're shocked. You're exasperated. You can't believe he's treating you this way. You're a doctor and all you're trying to do is the right thing, to follow the rules and do the right thing by your patient. You think for a split second. Your heart is now racing. You're respirations shallow and accelerate. You think to yourself, There's no way he'd really try to arrest me for this, or physically harm me. Then, in a flash, a montage of disturbing news reports, cell phone and police body cam videos you've recently seen, where police officers have assaulted or killed people in troubling scenarios flashes through your mind at light-speed. Wait. Would he?


What do you do?
 
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Thanks to all three of you, for your comments. I think we agree more than you think. Let me say again, that I agree, that the cop was wrong, the nurse was right. I agree with you. The cop was wrong, the nurse was right. Period. There is no "other side" to the story or other obfuscating information. You're right.

But I want to pose you with a hypothetical scenario:

You're halfway through you're next month's shifts, and buried in the middle of a 10 hour shift. You've ordered hundreds of blood tests and blood draws this month. So many, you can't count. You know you'll order hundreds more before the month is over. You'll order tens of thousands before you finish your career and you'll do so without an afterthought.

You have an unconscious trauma patient. There's no history, he was just found injured by the side of the road and is unconscious. No one knows what actually happened. Unbeknownst to you, the arresting officer seen in the first video, who's been fired, has moved to a different community and has gotten a new job with a new policy department: Your police department. You've got 15 patients waiting in the waiting room, you're way behind buried in CT scans, lab results, X-rays to check, lacerations to sew up, monitors are blaring and the ED is dancing with chaos. It's 3 in the morning. You're so tired you don't even notice it. As usual.

Right at the moment you really need a break, and a quick and easy case like a kid with an earache, in walks the unbalanced cop, bald on top with shaggy long hair on the sides and back, with an anger, impulse control and police brutality problem. You're in the doorway to your unconscious patient's room. The patient is behind you. The cop is in front of you. You smile at him. He doesn't smile back. You're between him and what he wants: Your patient's blood. He wants to add one more blood draw to your shift, month and the tens of thousands that will occur on your watch and during your career.

He looks at you and says, "I need to draw blood on your patient."

You calmly and confidently say, "You can't do that. Hospital policy says you need a warrant." You've already drawn blood on your unconscious patient and he didn't seem to notice or mind, but one more is unnecessary and it's clearly against the patient's rights. You're right and you know you're right.

The officer, looking more than a little perturbed, says very impatiently, "I don't care what 'hospital policy' says. I'm getting blood from your patient and I'm tired of you people in the ED getting in our way. Get out of the way or I'll arrest you. Or maybe you'll end up in a bed next to this guy fighting for your life to or worse. I've done it before and I'll do it again. My advice to you, is to step out of my way." Then he brings his right hand above, but not touching, the Glock 19 in the holster at his right side.

You're shocked. You're exasperated. You can't believe he's treating you this way. You're a doctor and all you're trying to do is the right thing, to follow the rules and do the right thing by your patient. You think for a split second. Your heart is now racing. You're respirations shallow and accelerate. You think to yourself, There's no way he'd really try to arrest me for this, or physically harm me. Then, in a flash, a montage of disturbing news reports, cell phone and police body cam videos you've recently seen, where police officers have assaulted or killed people in troubling scenarios flashes through your mind at light-speed. Wait. Would he?


What do you do?
As an attending? I'd tell him....with my hands clearly above my head......at a volume absurdly loud enough for the whole ED to hear me. "Officer it is against the law for you to draw blood without consent. I refuse to allow it and although i will not physically resist you I am not moving and you will need to arrest me to get to that patient. Someone call 911 and get a police supervisor down here now, and someone start recording"

I also plan on working in the middle of nowhere and would add in that case "It's not safe to arrest the only doctor in the emergency dept so please consider how much you want to do this"
 
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Umm are you kidding?

edit: I understand tackling a violent or belligerent person while trying to arrest them. But someone you're arresting on some non violent obstruction charge? Try and use words like a human first.

Again what is illegal about rushing or lunging towards someone when arresting them. That's my point is to get rid of the hyperbole of "omg illegal!" When all you mean is "there was no reason for him to be a dick about it."

Don't think anyone's disagreeing that the arrest itself was wrongful, and the officer didn't have to act that way, just not a fan of histrionic arguments.
 
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Thanks to all three of you, for your comments. I think we agree more than you think. Let me say again, that I agree, that the cop was wrong, the nurse was right. I agree with you. The cop was wrong, the nurse was right. Period. There is no "other side" to the story or other obfuscating information. You're right.

But I want to pose you with a hypothetical scenario:

You're halfway through you're next month's shifts, and buried in the middle of a 10 hour shift. You've ordered hundreds of blood tests and blood draws this month. So many, you can't count. You know you'll order hundreds more before the month is over. You'll order tens of thousands before you finish your career and you'll do so without an afterthought.

You have an unconscious trauma patient. There's no history, he was just found injured by the side of the road and is unconscious. No one knows what actually happened. Unbeknownst to you, the arresting officer seen in the first video, who's been fired, has moved to a different community and has gotten a new job with a new policy department: Your police department. You've got 15 patients waiting in the waiting room, you're way behind buried in CT scans, lab results, X-rays to check, lacerations to sew up, monitors are blaring and the ED is dancing with chaos. It's 3 in the morning. You're so tired you don't even notice it. As usual.

Right at the moment you really need a break, and a quick and easy case like a kid with an earache, in walks the unbalanced cop, bald on top with shaggy long hair on the sides and back, with an anger, impulse control and police brutality problem. You're in the doorway to your unconscious patient's room. The patient is behind you. The cop is in front of you. You smile at him. He doesn't smile back. You're between him and what he wants: Your patient's blood. He wants to add one more blood draw to your shift, month and the tens of thousands that will occur on your watch and during your career.

He looks at you and says, "I need to draw blood on your patient."

You calmly and confidently say, "You can't do that. Hospital policy says you need a warrant." You've already drawn blood on your unconscious patient and he didn't seem to notice or mind, but one more is unnecessary and it's clearly against the patient's rights. You're right and you know you're right.

The officer, looking more than a little perturbed, says very impatiently, "I don't care what 'hospital policy' says. I'm getting blood from your patient and I'm tired of you people in the ED getting in our way. Get out of the way or I'll arrest you. Or maybe you'll end up in a bed next to this guy fighting for your life to or worse. I've done it before and I'll do it again. My advice to you, is to step out of my way." Then he brings his right hand above, but not touching, the Glock 19 in the holster at his right side.

You're shocked. You're exasperated. You can't believe he's treating you this way. You're a doctor and all you're trying to do is the right thing, to follow the rules and do the right thing by your patient. You think for a split second. Your heart is now racing. You're respirations shallow and accelerate. You think to yourself, There's no way he'd really try to arrest me for this, or physically harm me. Then, in a flash, a montage of disturbing news reports, cell phone and police body cam videos you've recently seen, where police officers have assaulted or killed people in troubling scenarios flashes through your mind at light-speed. Wait. Would he?

What do you do?
The policy is there for a reason, to protect patient privacy. And I don't see the policeman actually shooting a doctor. You could try to reason with him.
 
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Thank you for your response. You and your friend keep acting like the "hospital policy" is some random bureaucratic obstacle that has no rational function. This is not a policy about tongue depressors storage, but instead describes the very limited circumstances in which you might permit an unconscious patient to be touched by a third party. The policy delineates the hospital's and the physician's legal and ethical duties to the patient. So rather than say "hospital policy says you can't do that" you should say "what you are trying to do is illegal, and amounts to criminal assault and a civil rights violation, so I cannot allow it, sorry please leave." This is what @sb247 was saying. Physicians should not disregard their legal and ethical obligations for personal convenience, much less for an unjustified fear that a cop will assassinate you in the middle of the ER. When has that ever happened? Never.

I still find your attitude to be one of fear and cowardice, only now you are mixing in some laziness (in your hypothetical, you're tired). Listen. Real ethical dilemmas tend not to exist in a total risk-free environment. If they did, the answers would be obvious. Consider these questions.

"With zero personal risk or inconvenience, would you protect your patient's rights?"
Well obviously you would. Every time, and so would the rest of the world.

"With slight personal risk, and some inconvenience, would you protect your patient's rights?"
Now here you are saying, No I would not, I would avoid any personal risk and surrender the patient to certain harm in order to extricate myself from the situation.

"You are tired and exasperated. Your ethical obligations in this situation are more lax. True or false?"
Care to take a guess?

Professionals must have the courage of their convictions, or at least follow the law. Instead you propose that doctors should cower and acquiesce in the face of tyranny and bullying. If everyone had your attitude, there would have been no civil rights movement, no American revolution, and I could go on and on. Might does not make right. Quite honestly, I would be disappointed in myself if I couldn't talk that guy down. He's a bully with a gun, and you're a smart ER doctor. Make an effort. Don't run and hide in the potty.

PS can you imagine the love and loyalty you would inspire on the part of your ER staff if you stepped in and took the arrest to protect your staff? Hero for life. Conversely, if you go hide in the potty while they haul off your nurse, you would be hated and mocked for life, and deservedly so.

You didn't answer what you would do in the hypothetical I provided, instead you're trying to move the goalpost by bringing up a bunch of other unrelated scenarios that are not the same.

Bottom line: Would you risk your life or great bodily harm to prevent a blood draw?

Yes, or no?
 
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Again what is illegal about rushing or lunging towards someone when arresting them. That's my point is to get rid of the hyperbole of "omg illegal!" When all you mean is "there was no reason for him to be a dick about it."

Don't think anyone's disagreeing that the arrest itself was wrongful, and the officer didn't have to act that way, just not a fan of histrionic arguments.
What is illegal about rushing or lunging is that that is assault (may be known as something else, depending on your jurisdiction). Assault is the act of creating apprehension that battery (unwanted contact) is going to occur. The arrest and detention is supposed to be calm, peaceful, and dispassionate. It is not legal to assault a person to effect an arrest, if that person is not resisting. Resisting arrest is the counter to the assault by the officer. If you even say, "wait a minute", that can easily lead to the officer charging you with resisting arrest, depending on your jurisdiction (in the US, most states have a higher bar to charge resisting). Fleeing or struggling is more clear cut resisting. Then, to overcome the flight or struggle, what may be construed as assault or battery may occur. Then, the doctrine of reasonable force comes into play (which is why, if you are fleeing without a weapon, police can't shoot you in the back to stop you, in most cases). If I have to subdue you, I can beat you until you are subdued, but I cannot kill you.
 
I gave my quote that I would say to the cop. "What you are trying to do is illegal, and amounts to criminal assault and a civil rights violation, so I cannot allow it, sorry please leave." I would probably also be telling someone to call the police chief, hospital attorney, etc., like @sb247 said.

Beyond that, I would never let my subordinate take the arrest on her own. I would be in handcuffs right along with her, or preferably, in her place.
 
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I gave my quote that I would say to the cop. "What you are trying to do is illegal, and amounts to criminal assault and a civil rights violation, so I cannot allow it, sorry please leave." I would probably also be telling someone to call the police chief, hospital attorney, etc., like @sb247 said.

Beyond that, I would never let my subordinate take the arrest on her own. I would be in handcuffs right along with her, or preferably, in her place.

Ok, honest answer. You'd risk your life or great bodily harm (while unarmed) to defy an armed cop prone to police brutality and poor impulse control to prevent an innocuous blood draw. That's easy to say on an Internet forum in a hypothetical scenario. And I'm sure sure how smart of a choice it would be, but it is at least, an honest answer.
 
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Ok, honest answer. You'd risk your life (while unarmed) to defy an armed cop prone to police brutality and poor impulse control to prevent an innocuous blood draw. That's easy to say on an Internet forum. And I'm sure sure how smart of a choice it would be, but it is at least, an honest answer.
Where are you getting this idea that this specific cop is known to be "prone to police brutality and poor impulse control," or is this just your belief about all police? Relatedly where are you getting the idea that stabbing your patient and stealing his blood is innocuous? It is not innocuous.

I think you are exaggerating the risk of refusal. I asked you when has an ER doc been gunned down by a cop in the middle of a crowded ER. My proposal is that it has never happened. All cops are armed; "armed cop" is redundant. And I'm not saying I would fight him. I would resist his unlawful commands. If he arrests me, I can handle that, I'm a big boy. He isn't going to shoot me. He isn't even going to unholster his gun. He might tase or pepper spray, although that would be incredibly extreme and totally improper. But you seem to have an extreme phobia of police, and a resultant inclination to abdicate your own responsibilities no matter how outrageous the police command.

How about this. The cop orders you to biopsy the unconscious patient's liver. Or he orders you to withhold pain medication, and delay setting a compound fracture, so he can interrogate the patient in the exam room? How about the cop orders you to produce a sample of spinal fluid? Please recall that in each of these cases, the patient is not under arrest or even accused of committing a crime. Now ask yourself why would your answer be different from the blood draw. Ethically there is really no difference.
 
Before I start. The police officer was wrong and the nurse was right.




Beyond that, I would never let my subordinate take the arrest on her own. I would be in handcuffs right along with her, or preferably, in her place.

Wait. Did you just say that nurses are your 'subordinates'?


Where are you getting this idea that this specific cop is known to be "prone to police brutality and poor impulse control,"

It was a hypothetical scenario, so I wasn't referring to the cop in the video. But in regards to the cop in the video, you tell me. Are you now defending his impulse control and professionalism, or was he acting out of bounds, assaulting a nurse and wanting to assault a patient, and needing a 'hero' (your word, post #62) such as yourself, to intervene? You can't have it both ways.

or is this just your belief about all police?
My personal belief, is that the vast majority of police, just like the vast majority of doctors, are professionals and do a great job, with rare exceptions.

I asked you when has an ER doc been gunned down by a cop in the middle of a crowded ER.

I've never seen a cop gun down an ER doctor in the ED, either. I've also never seen an emergency physician resists a cop in the ED, grandstand in the face of one, or show defiant attitude to a cop. If that was to ever happen, my guess is that such behavior might increase the chances of a violent cop/doc interaction, although it still would be unlikely to go that bad, that fast. I'm not about to test the theory to find out.

I've also never seen a cop physically arrest a nurse and haul her out of the ED, until seeing this video.

And I'm not saying I would fight him.

Oh. Wait. WAIT.

W A I T . . . .

What happened to the 'hero talk'? It's not much resistance if you're not going to put up any real resistance. If you'd step aside and let a cop draw blood, as long as you didn't have to put up a fight, I'm pretty sure that's the same as not putting up a fight.

He might tase or pepper spray, although that would be incredibly extreme and totally improper.

Make sure to put that on your med school/residency/job application. That the chances of you getting tased or pepper sprayed by a cop in the ED, are not zero.

But you seem to have an extreme phobia of police,

I have zero phobia of police whatsoever. I also don't mess with them, interfere with them, or give them any reason to mess with me. And I follow the law.

inclination to abdicate your own responsibilities no matter how outrageous the police command.

The greater the outrageousness the behavior of any armed individual I'm faced with, the less likely I am to defy them or taunt them. That's not called "abdication of responsibility," that's called "smart" and "alive."

How about this. The cop orders you to biopsy the unconscious patient's liver. Or he orders you to withhold pain medication, and delay setting a compound fracture, so he can interrogate the patient in the exam room? How about the cop orders you to produce a sample of spinal fluid? Please recall that in each of these cases, the patient is not under arrest or even accused of committing a crime. Now ask yourself why would your answer be different from the blood draw. Ethically there is really no difference.

There's a big difference between a cop who's a trained phlebotomist going in a patient's room to draw blood on a patient without demanding anyone do anything, versus a cop demanding an Emergency Physician performed some random liver biopsy on a patient.

But if you can't see that there's a difference between a blood draw and a liver biopsy, then we're not likely to ever find common ground.




.



PS: The police officer was wrong and the nurse was right.
 
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What is illegal about rushing or lunging is that that is assault (may be known as something else, depending on your jurisdiction). Assault is the act of creating apprehension that battery (unwanted contact) is going to occur. The arrest and detention is supposed to be calm, peaceful, and dispassionate. It is not legal to assault a person to effect an arrest, if that person is not resisting. Resisting arrest is the counter to the assault by the officer. If you even say, "wait a minute", that can easily lead to the officer charging you with resisting arrest, depending on your jurisdiction (in the US, most states have a higher bar to charge resisting). Fleeing or struggling is more clear cut resisting. Then, to overcome the flight or struggle, what may be construed as assault or battery may occur. Then, the doctrine of reasonable force comes into play (which is why, if you are fleeing without a weapon, police can't shoot you in the back to stop you, in most cases). If I have to subdue you, I can beat you until you are subdued, but I cannot kill you.


I have problems viewing action that does not cause physical harm during an arrest as assault as the very act of arresting someone requires unwanted physical contact which under otherwise situations I agree is battery. Now tackling someone not resisting is definitely wrong. See the case in NYC when that tennis star was both wrongfully arrested both in method (could've lead to career ending injury) and under wrong pretense (mistaken identity). That I agree was illegal. But lunging and acting like a dick is just lunging and acting like a dick in my mind unless there's no arrest involved. I think the offic r needs to be punished for the unnecessary and wrongful arrest only and any other overboard calls just dilutes the major issue at hand of police not knowing the law and overstepping his bounds.
 
The improper arrest seen on video which the mayor on police chief confirmed was improper. You're the one calling it an assault.
This seems like a hindsight analysis. Nobody gets to see the thing on video and hear what the police chief thinks when deciding what to do. To me, the cop was quite sedate and mellow until he decided to arrest the nurse. So she had no reason to think he was about to murder her as you suggest.

My personal belief, is that the vast majority of police, like the vast majority of doctors, are professional and do a great job.
But you are saying they might murder you over the slightest resistance, and therefore you must submit to their unlawful commands. So....it sounds like you actually consider them to be putative assassins.

I've never seen a cop gun down an ER doctor in the ED. I've also never seen an emergency physician resists a cop, grandstand in the face of one, or show defiant attitude. If it was to ever happen, my guess is that such behavior would increase the chances of it. I've also never seen a cop physically arrest a nurse and haul her out of the ED, until seeing this video.
Its pretty cynical to refer to the act of opposing tyranny and bullying as "grandstanding." You are definitely on record that you would cower and obey anything a police officer says, but for the other people who are brave enough to oppose illegal abuses of authority, maybe you could just say thank you instead of calling names.

Oh. Wait. What happened to the 'hero talk'? It's not much resistance if you're not going to put up any real resistance. If you'd step aside and let a cop draw blood, as long as you didn't have to put up a fight, I'm pretty sure that's the same as not putting up a fight.
So according to you it is either fight to the death or nothing? That's absurd. You should learn about civil disobedience, and passive resistance. Both have been used for social good throughout American history. And I'm sure someone was always there to mock them and call them grandstanders. Just for your information, most people viewing this video are thinking the nurse was quite heroic. The patient called her a hero, and the police department has even commended her bravery.

I have zero phobia of police whatsoever. Because I don't mess with them, or give them any reason to mess with me. And I follow the law.
You do not follow the law. The law says your patient is your responsibility, and you must not permit or subject her to assault by outside actors. That is not only the law, but also the ethical rule of your profession. Instead you would choose to follow a command issued by police that you know to be unlawful, due to your spurious, irrational fear that the police would murder you.

The more outrageous the behavior of any armed individual I'm faced with, the less likely I am to mess with them, or defy them. That's not called "abdication of responsibility," that's called "smart" and "alive."
Here you are going back to your idea that police are unstable, and could murder you at the drop of a hat, so you're smart to do what they say, even if it violates the law and your professional oath. Not buying it. I understand these things take courage, and I appreciate your candid admission that you would cravenly surrender all your principles at the first loud command by police. Some people have more grit, and its OK for you to admire them rather than lamely justify your own inclination toward cowardice.

There's a big difference between a cop who's a trained phlebotomist going in a patient's room to draw blood on a patient, versus a cop demanding an Emergency Physician performed some random liver biopsy on a patient. If you can't see that there's a big difference between sticking a needle into someone's superficial vein, versus into a person's vital organ, then I'd recommend you steer away from specialties that involve live patients.
Yes, it is perhaps the difference between stealing a candy bar, and stealing the whole cash register. That is why I asked you those questions, to try to get that point across. Obviously I did not succeed. But in reality it is not that I can't see the difference, but instead it is you who cannot see the commonality of these things, and why they are both unacceptable.

I'm sure you are probably a good person and many people like you. I regret some of the more forceful language I have used in this exchange, even in this very post. However, I honestly think your justification of surrender to bullying is antithetical to the idea of principled medical practice. Nobody promised you a risk-free environment for your medical practice, especially if you elected to work in the ED. Journalists go to jail to protect sources. Lawyers keep their mouth shut at all costs to protect client confidentiality. Surely you are better than a filthy lawyer. Tough ethical choices will present themselves, and I hope you will reflect on this discussion if you are ever facing a dilemma like this one. I feel you have a reservoir of courage that you have not attempted to tap, and I hope you will do so in the future.
 
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Welp, you edited the heck out of your post while I was responding. So we'll just have to stick to your original post.
 
This seems like a hindsight analysis. Nobody gets to see the thing on video and hear what the police chief thinks when deciding what to do. To me, the cop was quite sedate and mellow until he decided to arrest the nurse. So she had no reason to think he was about to murder her as you suggest.

But you are saying they might murder you over the slightest resistance, and therefore you must submit to their unlawful commands. So....it sounds like you actually consider them to be putative assassins.

Its pretty cynical to refer to the act of opposing tyranny and bullying as "grandstanding." You are definitely on record that you would cower and obey anything a police officer says, but for the other people who are brave enough to oppose illegal abuses of authority, maybe you could just say thank you instead of calling names.

So according to you it is either fight to the death or nothing? That's absurd. You should learn about civil disobedience, and passive resistance. Both have been used for social good throughout American history. And I'm sure someone was always there to mock them and call them grandstanders. Just for your information, most people viewing this video are thinking the nurse was quite heroic. The patient called her a hero, and the police department has even commended her bravery.

You do not follow the law. The law says your patient is your responsibility, and you must not permit or subject her to assault by outside actors. That is not only the law, but also the ethical rule of your profession. Instead you would choose to follow a command issued by police that you know to be unlawful, due to your spurious, irrational fear that the police would murder you.

Here you are going back to your idea that police are unstable, and could murder you at the drop of a hat, so you're smart to do what they say, even if it violates the law and your professional oath. Not buying it. I understand these things take courage, and I appreciate your candid admission that you would cravenly surrender all your principles at the first loud command by police. Some people have more grit, and its OK for you to admire them rather than lamely justify your own inclination toward cowardice.

Yes, it is perhaps the difference between stealing a candy bar, and stealing the whole cash register. That is why I asked you those questions, to try to get that point across. Obviously I did not succeed. But in reality it is not that I can't see the difference, but instead it is you who cannot see the commonality of these things, and why they are both unacceptable.

I'm sure you are probably a good person and many people like you. I regret some of the more forceful language I have used in this exchange, even in this very post. However, I honestly think your justification of surrender to bullying is antithetical to the idea of principled medical practice. Nobody promised you a risk-free environment for your medical practice, especially if you elected to work in the ED. Journalists go to jail to protect sources. Lawyers keep their mouth shut at all costs to protect client confidentiality. Surely you are better than a filthy lawyer. Tough ethical choices will present themselves, and I hope you will reflect on this discussion if you are ever facing a dilemma like this one. I feel you have a reservoir of courage that you have not attempted to tap, and I hope you will do so in the future.

You talk a lot about 'courage' in your post but as far as I can tell you've taken some pre-med classes, sent out some applications and talked tough on the internet. Maybe there's more. But as far as myself goes, I'm pretty secure in my actual results in the real world.
 
As an attending? I'd tell him....with my hands clearly above my head......at a volume absurdly loud enough for the whole ED to hear me. "Officer it is against the law for you to draw blood without consent. I refuse to allow it and although i will not physically resist you I am not moving and you will need to arrest me to get to that patient. Someone call 911 and get a police supervisor down here now, and someone start recording"

I also plan on working in the middle of nowhere and would add in that case "It's not safe to arrest the only doctor in the emergency dept so please consider how much you want to do this"

sb247, as a registered Green Party liberal/progressive, I usually can't stand anything you say on politics, but you've gained a little bit of respect from me. You're actually being a consistent libertarian here. Props, as they say.

As for Birdstrike, he is revealing himself as a hypocritical authoritarian.
 
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You talk a lot about 'courage' in your post but as far as I can tell you've taken some pre-med classes, sent out some applications and talked tough on the internet. Maybe there's more. But as far as myself goes, I'm pretty secure in my actual results in the real world.
You know you've lost the argument when you start trying to dig up personal stuff on the other guy.
 
sb247, as a registered Green Party liberal/progressive, I usually can't stand anything you say on politics, but you've gained a little bit of respect from me. You're actually being a consistent libertarian here. Props, as they say.

As for Birdstrike, he is revealing himself as a hypocritical authoritarian.
I apreciate the acknowledgement of consistency

That being said, I think some folks are being too hard on @Birdstrike , birdstrike is right that what I was proposing puts a doc at risk. I find that risk in that hypothetical to be acceptable, I totally get someone saying they aren't wading into those waters and will just turn the other cheek and let the lawyers sort it out. It's not the call I would make but I get it.
 
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And your advice is to just do what the officer says because else he might shoot you!
That's exactly the right thing to do. I mean, you can argue until you're blue in the face, but you cannot physically prevent him from doing his job.
The time to argue your case is in the courtroom. Not in an unwinnable fight out in public.
In this case, she wasn't doing anything physical. She was only telling him what to do, and he arrested and assaulted her for it.
 
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That's exactly the right thing to do. I mean, you can argue until you're blue in the face, but you cannot physically prevent him from doing his job.
The time to argue your case is in the courtroom. Not in an unwinnable fight out in public.
In this case, she wasn't doing anything physical. She was only telling him what to do, and he arrested and assaulted her for it.
We never really got into the mechanics, but I acknowledged that a physical "fight" is not what you should do. But just because he can force his way doesn't mean you should surrender to unlawful commands that hurt your patient. The nurse knew this, and used non-physical disobedience, which is what I and others have suggested as an alternative to capitulation or hiding.
 
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I'm not a law enforcement officer. I cannot stop a law enforcement officer from doing anything. If he shows up in my ER wanting to draw blood (he is personally drawing the blood), I'm not going to stop him. I will let the court decide if it gets thrown out because there wasn't a warrant. I personally wouldn't draw the blood, but I wouldn't stop an officer from drawing it either. No court would decide against a healthcare worker for not "standing up for their patient's rights" and stopping the officer. Nobody would expect you to physically restrain an officer to prevent a blood draw.
 
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I apreciate the acknowledgement of consistency

That being said, I think some folks are being too hard on @Birdstrike , birdstrike is right that what I was proposing puts a doc at risk. I find that risk in that hypothetical to be acceptable, I totally get someone saying they aren't wading into those waters and will just turn the other cheek and let the lawyers sort it out. It's not the call I would make but I get it.
Thanks I appreciate it. But please, I'm begging you, don't risk it all to defend me. One cannot win when challenging those guaranteed to always do the bravest and most ethical thing, the internet heroes and ethicists, who will risk their lives and will stand up for ethics and principle to prevent any transgression, no matter how great or small, when on the internet.

Plus, if past is prologue, there's at least a 50/50 chance one of them will at some point private message me asking for real world advice and tell me how much a fan they are of my posts.
 
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Thanks I appreciate it. But please, I'm begging you, don't risk it all to defend me. One cannot win when challenging those guaranteed to always do the bravest and most ethical thing, who will risk their lives and will stand up for their ethics and principles to prevent any transgression, no matter how great or small, when on the internet. Plus, if past is prologue, there's at least a 50/50 chance one of them will at some point private message me asking for real world advice and tell me how much a fan they are of my posts.
dangit....I'm a fan...you've already predicted my next move ;)
 
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You know you've lost the argument when you start trying to dig up personal stuff on the other guy.
No. No.

When you come to a forum of Emergency Physicians and start calling people cowards, that's when you've lost the argument.
 
I agree with birdstrike. I would treat the police the same as an aggressive psych patient who wants to leave. While I will verbally tell them to stop, I'm not putting myself at risk of any physical altercation.
 
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You do not follow the law. The law says your patient is your responsibility, and you must not permit or subject her to assault by outside actors. That is not only the law, but also the ethical rule of your profession. Instead you would choose to follow a command issued by police that you know to be unlawful, due to your spurious, irrational fear that the police would murder you.
Actually the law says no such thing. At all.
 
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Again what is illegal about rushing or lunging towards someone when arresting them. That's my point is to get rid of the hyperbole of "omg illegal!" When all you mean is "there was no reason for him to be a dick about it."

Don't think anyone's disagreeing that the arrest itself was wrongful, and the officer didn't have to act that way, just not a fan of histrionic arguments.
Arrests are most often an uneventful, peaceful process. This officer made no attempt to do so and looked entirely unprofessional.
 
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I think there is obfuscation going on here. There are two issues here:

1) I agree that I wouldn't myself risk arrest.

2) Just because I myself wouldn't take the risk doesn't mean that I wouldn't respect someone who did. This is going above and beyond, and should be applauded.
 
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I think there is obfuscation going on here. There are two issues here:

1) I agree that I wouldn't myself risk arrest.

2) Just because I myself wouldn't take the risk doesn't mean that I wouldn't respect someone who did. This is going above and beyond, and should be applauded.
You've gone from "Birdstrike is a hypocritical authoritarian" to "Well, if I really had to do something, I wouldn't risk my own butt, either."
Interesting.
 
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You've posted a link to a website run by lawyers who sue doctors. You can do better, @Angry Birds.
The supreme court actually said even cops don't have to physically defend people...docs are certainly not legally required to physically defend patients from a bad cop
 
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No. No.
When you come to a forum of Emergency Physicians and start calling people cowards, that's when you've lost the argument.
Ha, no sorry. You chose not to respond, but rather to dig through my history and make a personal comment. You lose. Its a pretty standard metric for gauging the outcome of a debate.
Actually the law says no such thing. At all.
Actually it does. Go ask your hospital attorney or legal department. But is it your argument that it merely violates your ethics?
You've posted a link to a website run by lawyers who sue doctors. You can do better, @Angry Birds.
Another attack on the source, not the substance. Not only that, but a hilariously inaccurate claim about the source.
 
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No. No.
When you come to a forum of Emergency Physicians and start calling people cowards, that's when you've lost the argument.
If the shoe fits....

"Now I myself, personally, would have taken the occasion to disappear to the doctors lounge for a tall drink of caffeine and a pop tart, and a camp-out on the crapper, long enough to let the situation 'take car of itself,' if you know what I mean."
-Birdstrike 9-1-17


But you know what? Maybe I have judged too harshly. I'm not in the situation. I don't necessarily think I'm wrong but I am saying here, fine, you guys are there in the ED and I'll accept your statements since I don't have that experience. I don't want to keep bashing heads over this.
 
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If the shoe fits....

"Now I myself, personally, would have taken the occasion to disappear to the doctors lounge for a tall drink of caffeine and a pop tart, and a camp-out on the crapper, long enough to let the situation 'take car of itself,' if you know what I mean."
-Birdstrike 9-1-17

You have very strange concepts of courage and cowardice.

You think someone who's dedicated his life to being a physician, having spent many years being a physician saving actual lives where possible and treating the ill and suffering (not just talking about it) the majority of it spent in EDs, having gone through all the trials and tribulations of medical training and practice, dealing with some of the most stressful life and death situations one can encounter, with poise and control, is a coward.

But you think coming onto an internet forum, and saying you'd physically block an armed police officer from drawing blood (not even doing it in real life, just talking about it online) which most if not all of the experience EM attendings on this forum (and I imagine most in real life, if you know any) say they wouldn't do, is "courageous."

It's an interesting take, to say the least.

Regardless, good luck with your training.
 
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You've posted a link to a website run by lawyers who sue doctors. You can do better, @Angry Birds.

You've gone from "Birdstrike is a hypocritical authoritarian" to "Well, if I really had to do something, I wouldn't risk my own butt, either."
Interesting.

Birdstrike, seriously, do you take tips from Kellyanne Conway? Had you simply said, "I wouldn't have had the guts to risk going against a cop, but I respect the nurse for doing so," then I wouldn't have taken any issue with you. Instead, however, you started spinning stories trying desperately to defend the cop, even before you had any real information (something you then amazingly use as a defense instead of feeling bad for talking out of your ass to diminish the protagonist of this story).

You can't tell the difference?

The supreme court actually said even cops don't have to physically defend people...docs are certainly not legally required to physically defend patients from a bad cop

I don't think anyone here ever said anything about physically fighting a cop. As someone has mentioned numerous times above, there is a middle ground between (1) cowardly acquiescence and (2) physical resistance. In fact, the nurse seemed to be taking exactly that middle ground, but the cop went to a 10 almost instantly.
 
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You have very strange concepts of courage and cowardice.

You think someone who's dedicated his life to being a physician, having spent many years being a physician saving actual lives where possible and treating the ill and suffering (not just talking about it) the majority of it spent in EDs, having gone through all the trials and tribulations of medical training and practice, dealing with some of the most stressful life and death situations one can encounter, with poise and control, is a coward.

But you think coming onto an internet forum, and saying you'd physically block and police officer from drawing blood (not even doing it in real life, just talking about it online) which most if not all of the experience EM attendings on this forum (and I imagine most in real life, if you know any) say they wouldn't do, is "courageous."

It's an interesting take, to say the least.

Regardless, good luck with your training.
I repeatedly said I would not physically fight the cop, that's misstating my position. I found the nurse to be courageous, and the plan to dodge the situation not so much. But you are right, you're in the situation, I am not. You may have surprised yourself and stood up for your nurse and patient more than you think. At any rate, I'm done. Hope you have a nice week.
 
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I repeatedly said I would not physically fight the cop, that's misstating my position. I found the nurse to be courageous, and the plan to dodge the situation not so much. But you are right, you're in the situation, I am not. You may have surprised yourself and stood up for your nurse and patient more than you think. At any rate, I'm done. Hope you have a nice week.

Exactly. It's a Kellyanne Conway move and a straw man argument against you.
 
Exactly. It's a Kellyanne Conway move and a straw man argument against you.
Ah, yes! The good old 'straw' man argument. Kind of like bringing up Kellyanne Conway on a medical forum. Lmao.

I don't think anyone here ever said anything about physically fighting a cop.

Yes! That's the whole point. No one has suggested physically fighting a cop to prevent a blood draw, and no one has suggested anything that would actually stop a cop, who threatened to arrest them for blocking a blood draw, from actually being able to do a blood draw. Several people suggested mere words. But the nurse and administrator in the video already tried that and it failed. The cop still arrested the nurse (without formally pressing charges), cuffed her and put her in the cop car. The cop could still have walked in the room and drawn blood, while the nurse sat in the cop car. One person suggested standing between the cop and the patient with hands raised. As if cops are foiled if asked to deviate from a straight line and can't just walk around somebody standing there passively with arms raised. Fail. The cop walks around you and goes in the room and gets the blood.

The whole scenario involves a cop who's willing to disregard policy and procedure, after being told the hospital policy with words, threatens to arrest the nurse anyways if he's not physically allowed to himself draw blood on a patient. If, after the words have failed, you're not going to actually take an action with teeth in it, to stop the blood draw from happening by an armed cop that's threatening to arrest you, then it's meaningless posturing. I have no idea how you'd stop the police officer, if not physically, after having already reminded him of the policy, especially after an administrator did the same. Unless you're willing to get arrested, then take it to the NEXT level while in handcuffs, whatever that would be, then your patient ends up with their blood drawn, just like everyone else's. Maybe you'd be able to claim you were more incensed about it than the next guy, or more ethically appalled or something like that, but the end result would be the same, without a willingness to action beyond mere words, which have already failed.

Bottom line: Unless you were willing to be arrested like the nurse in the video was, then escalate the situation BEYOND THAT somehow, I don't see how you'd actually be able to prevent your patient's blood being drawn in that scenario, or any other, for that matter. Because arguing with the cop, and getting arrested by him, would still not take away his ability to go draw blood on your patient no matter how unethical form him to do so, if he wanted to.
 
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As an unabashed and ethically flimsy pragmatist, I will tell you this-- "it depends".

I've had about 99.8% wonderful interactions with police in the ED. They have literally helped save us from armed/violent/psychopaths. Granted they've also brought me a ton of annoying drunks who had no reason to be in the ED, but so be it. Overall, I'm a huge fan and I love having police in my department. I absolutely try to give them any professional courtesy I can, and in return I know they do our best to help protect us while we work.

Twice I've had police attempt to direct me/my RN staff to do the wrong thing. Details changed a bit for public consumption.

Once they brought a patient in around 0430, forced him to register, and demand we draw blood vials and then handed them the vials so they could run labs on the patient for evidence. The patient was awake, alert, and when asked preferred not to have any blood draw. A detective was amongst the group, and tried to convince the RN that they had the lawful right to demand the RN drew labs against the patient's will (not true here, without a court order). The RN thought this smelled funny, and thus said "no thanks, let me get the doctor". When I said "this smells funny to me" the detective grew heated and a bit agitated. So I went into one of my typical routines-- double-down on the Southern accent, get really dumb and really friendly, and just explained I was calling the hospital lawyer and administrator-on-call because this legal stuff was awful complicated and I've gotten in trouble for it before and as soon as they give me the A-OK I'll get that blood drawn myself, ya'll. The entire crew decided to leave because they didn't want to wait around for these call-backs. Needless to say hospital legal was aghast once they woke up, had their brunch, and called back. But the situation was easily defused and not one needed to get arrested. That said, I don't think there is a snowballs chance in hell I would have stood between them and that patient if they had a butterfly and were going to draw the blood themselves.

The other one was many years ago-- significant MVC, unrestrained driver, appears heavily intoxicated with very significant facial trauma, combative and altered on arrival. Moved to immediately get access, intubate for control and to allow for trauma imaging, all the typical trauma center stuff. About 30s into this, a gentleman in plain clothes but a city police badge barges in, and orders us to stop touching the patient, and specifically not to draw blood. Everyone keeps doing their jobs, so he gets very heated and threatens arrest for anyone who continues to "unlawfully assault the officer who does NOT consent to treatment". Turns out our patient is an off-duty officer of the law. We'll I'd already called for the sux and etomidate, and asked the nurse to push it as I had the larygoscope in my hand. Officer looks at me and says if I touch the patient, he'll arrest me. In perhaps my greatest moment, I say "please do, but let me finish saving his life first" and start to intubate him. He started to move towards me, but the other officers with him and hospital security slowed him up, and then, with perfect timing, a state trooper showed up and declared that the accident had happened on a state highway, and it was his case, and everyone else could leave the room and let the nurses and doctors do their damned jobs.

From my later understanding, this particular officer might have actually been a friend of some type, and might have been trying to avoid a tox screen getting drawn to protect the patient, but was going about it... poorly.

Anyway, in the later case I was in a trauma bay with 12 other professionals and clearly in the right, and the potential harm to our patient-- he looked seriously injured-- was real. The potential harm to me-- some handcuffs and perhaps 15 minutes of internet fame by my instant calculations-- seemed minor in comparison. So my smart ass remarks came from a tenable position, and worked out fine.

But I can't pretend on a day-to-day basis I would be that confrontational and brave to stand up to someone like the nurse did in this real example. I wish I was that certain in my own courage and convictions.
 
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As an unabashed and ethically flimsy pragmatist, I will tell you this-- "it depends".

I've had about 99.8% wonderful interactions with police in the ED. They have literally helped save us from armed/violent/psychopaths. Granted they've also brought me a ton of annoying drunks who had no reason to be in the ED, but so be it. Overall, I'm a huge fan and I love having police in my department. I absolutely try to give them any professional courtesy I can, and in return I know they do our best to help protect us while we work.

Twice I've had police attempt to direct me/my RN staff to do the wrong thing. Details changed a bit for public consumption.

Once they brought a patient in around 0430, forced him to register, and demand we draw blood vials and then handed them the vials so they could run labs on the patient for evidence. The patient was awake, alert, and when asked preferred not to have any blood draw. A detective was amongst the group, and tried to convince the RN that they had the lawful right to demand the RN drew labs against the patient's will (not true here, without a court order). The RN thought this smelled funny, and thus said "no thanks, let me get the doctor". When I said "this smells funny to me" the detective grew heated and a bit agitated. So I went into one of my typical routines-- double-down on the Southern accent, get really dumb and really friendly, and just explained I was calling the hospital lawyer and administrator-on-call because this legal stuff was awful complicated and I've gotten in trouble for it before and as soon as they give me the A-OK I'll get that blood drawn myself, ya'll. The entire crew decided to leave because they didn't want to wait around for these call-backs. Needless to say hospital legal was aghast once they woke up, had their brunch, and called back. But the situation was easily defused and not one needed to get arrested. That said, I don't think there is a snowballs chance in hell I would have stood between them and that patient if they had a butterfly and were going to draw the blood themselves.

The other one was many years ago-- significant MVC, unrestrained driver, appears heavily intoxicated with very significant facial trauma, combative and altered on arrival. Moved to immediately get access, intubate for control and to allow for trauma imaging, all the typical trauma center stuff. About 30s into this, a gentleman in plain clothes but a city police badge barges in, and orders us to stop touching the patient, and specifically not to draw blood. Everyone keeps doing their jobs, so he gets very heated and threatens arrest for anyone who continues to "unlawfully assault the officer who does NOT consent to treatment". Turns out our patient is an off-duty officer of the law. We'll I'd already called for the sux and etomidate, and asked the nurse to push it as I had the larygoscope in my hand. Officer looks at me and says if I touch the patient, he'll arrest me. In perhaps my greatest moment, I say "please do, but let me finish saving his life first" and start to intubate him. He started to move towards me, but the other officers with him and hospital security slowed him up, and then, with perfect timing, a state trooper showed up and declared that the accident had happened on a state highway, and it was his case, and everyone else could leave the room and let the nurses and doctors do their damned jobs.

From my later understanding, this particular officer might have actually been a friend of some type, and might have been trying to avoid a tox screen getting drawn to protect the patient, but was going about it... poorly.

Anyway, in the later case I was in a trauma bay with 12 other professionals and clearly in the right, and the potential harm to our patient-- he looked seriously injured-- was real. The potential harm to me-- some handcuffs and perhaps 15 minutes of internet fame by my instant calculations-- seemed minor in comparison. So my smart ass remarks came from a tenable position, and worked out fine.

But I can't pretend on a day-to-day basis I would be that confrontational and brave to stand up to someone like the nurse did in this real example. I wish I was that certain in my own courage and convictions.

Thank you for posting how you handled these situations. Great job, with some very difficult situations, that apparently turned out as well as could be expected. In the situation involving the intubation, and the officer threatening to stop you from intubating, did you report this to his police supervisor? Since he told you to withhold life saving treatment (withholding intubation is a scenario in an entirely different universe than an officer wanting to draw blood) he essentially was ordering you to kill someone, and to let someone die. Did you report him to internal affairs so he would never be able to attempt to kill anyone again, by arresting and preventing doctors in the midst of life saving procedures?
 
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Birdstrike, you don't get it. What angered me and others was that you were justifying the cop's behavior and proudly so without having any facts.

And the Kellyanne Conway part is when you answer this by pivoting to something else.
 
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