Nurse Practioners encroaching upon Physician territory?

[RogueUnicorn]

this is my own personal perspective.. but...

i took a bunch of classes with NP students my sophomore and junior years. the classes are very difficult. harder than cell bio, harder than quantum. and i took these as well so i have basis for comparison. more importantly, i would trust any of these folks over the myriad a-hole premeds/medstudents i've met over the years. are there dumb/unqualified nurses? certainly. but sure as hell there are idiots in medicine as well.

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[iMD]

maybe it's different from area to area but in my city, there are 3 nursing programs and watching my former significant other apply to them and looking at the requirements, i couldnt help but scoff (though not to her face, as i was trying to be supportive)

 

[RogueUnicorn]

maybe it's different from area to area but in my city, there are 3 nursing programs and watching my former significant other apply to them and looking at the requirements, i couldnt help but scoff (though not to her face, as i was trying to be supportive)

i don't think you'll find argument against the statement that the NP programs have less stringent pre-req and coursework vs. med school. but that's why NPs don't do surgery, for example...

 

[adeline]

bunch of nonsense

get the nursing board out yo butt, bb.

 

[Hoody]

get the nursing board out yo butt, bb.

Yes. Truth = nonsense.

Get yo head out yo butt.

 

[adeline]

Yes. Truth = nonsense.

Get yo head out yo butt.

bb, what you are talking has been proven nonsense.

 

[Hoody]

bb, what you are talking has been proven nonsense.

Yeah, you posted that once before....with no proof or links to sources. Oh, and I'd rather not sift through 583689371 threads full of posts made by posters who have roughly the same insight as yourself.


For the record, I'm not arguing that NPs = MDs. I myself wouldn't pre med if I truly thought I could be equally sufficient as an NP. What I am arguing is for narrow minded and ill informed posters, such as yourself, to do some research before you run your mouth. And I don't mean "research" on the SDN forum (but nice try).

 

[adeline]

Yeah, you posted that once before....with no proof or links to sources. Oh, and I'd rather not sift through 583689371 threads full of posts made by posters who have roughly the same insight as yourself.

LOL bb you don't even know who I am.

Or who they are. You know, the nurses, attendings, fellows, managers, techs, etc........ who agree with my position.

Thanks for playing.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

LOL bb you don't even know who I am.

Or who they are. You know, the nurses, attendings, fellows, managers, techs, etc........ who agree with my position.

Thanks for playing.

both of you add nothing.

 

[adeline]

both of you add nothing.

not adding anything to nothing doesn't really bug me, bb.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

not adding anything to nothing doesn't really bug me, bb.

which brings me to my other point - to you ever add anythign to anything?

 

[adeline]

which brings me to my other point - to you ever add anythign to anything?

lime + coconut*






*not really b/c i am allergic.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

lime + coconut*






*not really b/c i am allergic.

that's a shame.. it's delicious

 

[Hoody]

LOL bb you don't even know who I am.

I don't care who are. Or who you think you are.

Or who they are.

Again, don't care.

You know

No, I don't know. You = nonsense.

the nurses, attendings, fellows, managers, techs, etc........

Nor do I care, specifically about the people who are non nursing which is 4 out of the 5 categories you list. Again, I'll assume they have as much insight into the training and preparation of NPs and DNPs as you do.

who agree with my position.

Agreeing has nothing to do with it. But if you must, I agree that NPs shouldn't be on an equal status as MD. I don't agree with the opinions in which you spew as facts.

Thanks for playing.

You lose. For continuing the spread of misinformation. Good work, give yourself a big pat on the back.

 

[bakanoisha]

I think the education of nurse practitioners is too variable to be able to replace the skills of a physician.

It doesn't matter what you, or any informed person, thinks. It only matters what the a-holes in washington legislate, and as of right now you've got a President who actively bashes physicians and is going so far as to actually insure visits to naturopathic "physicians" (self-proclaimed) in his healthcare bill.

The reality is that it can, and if we remain complacent, will happen. Don't allow yourself, or anybody else, to be fooled into thinking that mid-levels area physician replacement and that it isnt' dangerous for them to acquire that position. There is a huge difference in training and education.

If you're going into this profession because (among other reasons) you truly want to be part of helping people, you've got to remember that your job doesn't stop at the office. You've got to be politically active or you'll be run over and taken advantage of.

 

[adeline]

You lose. For continuing the spread of misinformation. Good work, give yourself a big pat on the back.

Are you 12? The political body for nursing is pushing for NPs to be seen as equal to physicians. There is no doubt about this.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Are you 12? The political body for nursing is pushing for NPs to be seen as equal to physicians. There is no doubt about this.

this is true

 

[Hoody]

both of you add nothing.

Not sure how clarifying the truth or correcting misinformation is nothing. My statements can be verified easily. The lack of knowledge regarding the training and preparation of RNs, NPs and DNPs is ramped on this site. RNs, NPs and DNPs are not equal to MDs, and should not be treated as such. People who do not know what the true training and preparation of nurses consists of, should not comment.

I get that people around here are threatened by NPs, and maybe they should be. I get that people don't believe they have a place amongst MDs, I am one of those people. What I don't get, it why people are so against knowing and/or accepting the truth about the training of nurses. It is different than MD training, but that doesn't mean that it is pure fluff or that it can be completed in 6 months and without significant hands on clinical time. These statements are simply untrue and can be easily verified by any accredited institution of advance practice nursing. Spreading misinformation only fuels the fire, especially when a decent percentage of the population is too lazy to research the truth and instead believe the average joe poster on SDN (i.e adeline).

I have nothing to hide. Prove me wrong on any of my statements and I will have learned something new today. Prove that any of one adeline (and the likes) statements are true and I will be genuinely shocked, but nonetheless accepting of the truth (personal opinions/feelings aside).

 

[adeline]

Not sure how clarifying the truth or correcting misinformation is nothing. My statements can be verified easily. The lack of knowledge regarding the training and preparation of RNs, NPs and DNPs is ramped on this site. RNs, NPs and DNPs are not equal to MDs, and should not be treated as such. People who do not know what the true training and preparation of nurses consists of, should not comment.

I get that people around here are threatened by NPs, and maybe they should be. I get that people don't believe they have a place amongst MDs, I am one of those people. What I don't get, it why people are so against knowing and/or accepting the truth about the training of nurses. It is different than MD training, but that doesn't mean that it is pure fluff or that it can be completed in 6 months and without significant hands on clinical time. These statements are simply untrue and can be easily verified by any accredited institution of advance practice nursing. Spreading misinformation only fuels the fire, especially when a decent percentage of the population is too lazy to research the truth and instead believe the average joe poster on SDN (i.e adeline).

I have nothing to hide. Prove me wrong on any of my statements and I will have learned something new today. Prove that any of one adeline (and the likes) statements are true and I will be genuinely shocked, but nonetheless accepting of the truth (personal opinions/feelings aside).

Dude, exactly what you just said isn't true about nursing? Is exactly what is being pushed.

 

[bakanoisha]

Sure, getting your RN or BSN is not fluff, but it pales in comparison to MD/DO. And, the training for some of the advanced nursing degrees IS often fluffy. They're offered online... need I say more? Of course, to the person who has only done the online program it "seemed" hard, but to those of us who have a more well-rounded experience we know the hardest thing about online-classes is remembering to turn in your assignments on time--especially when the degrees are given by no-name institutions.

 

[Hoody]

Are you 12?

No. 26. Are you 5?

The political body for nursing is pushing for NPs to be seen as equal to physicians. There is no doubt about this.

I never doubted this statement (not sure I have seen you post this statement in this thread anyway, but I could have missed it and in fact be wrong, I did work all night and should be sleeping now - damnit SDN!). It was your other exaggerated statements. And your statement above is true, in certain settings, like primary care, but I would have to read to what extent the BON wants to equalize the two professions before I could make any more comments regarding that. I can, and will, admit that I don't now what the BONs intentions are (as I really don't care....my focus remains pre med).

My beef mainly lies with the misinformation regarding training and preparation of advance practice roles. Thought I was clear about this in my original post in which all I did was argue that the training is not what most think and with that but that I still agree with the majority here in that NP does not = MD. I guess not.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Sure, getting your RN or BSN is not fluff, but it pales in comparison to MD/DO. And, the training for some of the advanced nursing degrees IS often fluffy. They're offered online... need I say more? Of course, to the person who has only done the online program it "seemed" hard, but to those of us who have a more well-rounded experience we know the hardest thing about online-classes is remembering to turn in your assignments on time--especially when the degrees are given by no-name institutions.

i agree it's ridiculous. but at the same time, i don't find too much difference between this and the "classes" you take at Caribbean schools

 

[bakanoisha]

i agree it's ridiculous. but at the same time, i don't find too much difference between this and the "classes" you take at Caribbean schools

If your comparison, hypothetically, was correct, then I'd respond with that's why there is the USMLE and Residency. A huge percentage of carrib students don't pass the boards or make it to Residency.

However, the carrib schools follow a common medical school academic schedule. They are just willing to indescriminantly accept the money of students who can't cut it and those who can and are looking for a 2nd chance.

But, I see your point to some degree. I just think it's fairly extreme to compare on online NP/DNP with a physician who did his schooling outside of the country, but still passed the boards and completed a 15,000-50,000 hr residency (depending on specialty).

 

[Hoody]

i agree it's ridiculous.

How can it be so ridiculous when tests are proctored and clinical cannot be completed online? You can get several advance degrees online these days. The status of a program being offered online really has no correlation to its fluffiness level.

but at the same time, i don't find too much difference between this and the "classes" you take at Caribbean schools

I'm guessing the classes are pretty equal, but being I have no experience or first hand knowledge, I cannot accurately comment on this. I work with several Caribbean grads and they are excellent doctors. Doesn't mean all of them are excellent, or that all students graduating form Harvard will be excellent either.

 

[Hoody]

If your comparison, hypothetically, was correct, then I'd respond with that's why there is the USMLE and Residency. A huge percentage of carrib students don't pass the boards or make it to Residency.

How huge is huge?

But, I see your point to some degree. I just think it's fairly extreme to compare on online NP/DNP with a physician who did his schooling outside of the country, but still passed the boards and

Maybe your not addressing me, but I keep reiterating that NP training is not equal to MD/DO training, we all know that. What people seem to not know is what the training of NPs and DNPs really entails.

I don't even know why I am fighting so hard for this. I mean, I don't strive to be a NP so I'm not looking for acceptance. I just find it a bit ludacris that a so many posters around here have such deluded ideas of what training really does entail and how incredibly resistant they are to believe otherwise. Even more maddening is that SDN is a community full of brilliant people who you think would take the time to properly research something they feel so compassionate about or against.

completed a 15,000-50,000 hr residency (depending on specialty).

1st year FP Residents make 54k here at my hospital. Nurses with BSNs don't quite start at 54K here. 54k seems low on this forum, I know, but to the average person, 54k is significant. And for the resident, it only lasts 3 years. Then they make triple that...at least here (rural city).

 

[bakanoisha]

How huge is huge?

I don't remember precisely... but the number was pretty big if the forums are to be trusted.

Maybe your not addressing me, but I keep reiterating that NP training is not equal to MD/DO training, we all know that. What people seem to not know is what the training of NPs and DNPs really entails.

There are threads on this. Search the forums and you'll find the info.

I don't even know why I am fighting so hard for this. I mean, I don't strive to be a NP so I'm not looking for acceptance. I just find it a bit ludacris that a so many posters around here have such deluded ideas of what training really does entail and how incredibly resistant they are to believe otherwise. Even more maddening is that SDN is a community full of brilliant people who you think would take the time to properly research something they feel so compassionate about or against.

Well, the human brain is very complex. Even smart people can have broken parts of their brains

1st year FP Residents make 54k here at my hospital. Nurses with BSNs don't quite start at 54K here. 54k seems low on this forum, I know, but to the average person, 54k is significant. And for the resident, it only lasts 3 years. Then they make triple that...at least here (rural city).

EDIT: Okay, i see what happened You thought I was talking about money when I said 15,000-50,000, but I was actually talking about hours spent training. I left the below info anyway.

I got my numbers from a site somewhere (long ago), but if you figure a reasident works 16hrs/day for 6 days/wk they'll average 15,000hrs in 3 years. That number is probably a litlte high for fam practice... Maybe it was 12khrs???

But, the number of clinical hours for a PA was around 1000 and the number of clinical hours for a DNA was in the hundreds. Not to mention, many of their courses were pretty fluffy sounding. One guy on the forums here has tons of links in his sig about this stuff, including the training info, etc.

 

[Hoody]

One guy on the forums here has tons of links in his sig about this stuff, including the training info, etc.

Taurus.

I know him well.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

How can it be so ridiculous when tests are proctored and clinical cannot be completed online? You can get several advance degrees online these days. The status of a program being offered online really has no correlation to its fluffiness level.

no degree of higher learning should be completed online.

 

[Instatewaiter]

My statements can be verified easily. The lack of knowledge regarding the training and preparation of RNs, NPs and DNPs is ramped on this site.

I have nothing to hide. Prove me wrong on any of my statements and I will have learned something new today. Prove that any of one adeline (and the likes) statements are true and I will be genuinely shocked, but nonetheless accepting of the truth (personal opinions/feelings aside).

Let's see if I was overreacting. I googled "DNP curriculum," picked the first reputable university program I could find. It happened to be the University of Arizona (4th down on google).I picked the family nurse practice DNP which is a straight from BSN (college) to DNP (doctorate).


1) From a college degree it requires only 74 credits to get a doctorate. So 2.5 years gets you a doctorate... For those counting that is roughly 6 months more credit hours than you need to get a masters level NP. So there is your 6 months difference.

2) The doctrate (remember straight out of nursing school) requires only 1,000 clinical hours. Again, I did 3-4000 hours by the end of my third year. Multiply that by 4 and you will have what a family doc goes through ~12,000 clinical hours vs 1000 in the DNP. That doesnt even take into account the differences in foundation.

So let's look at that foundation.

3) COURSES

Let me list the worthless classes that make up that 74 credit hours at Arizona
- Statistics- 3 credits
- Advanced Statistics- 3 credits
- Health Policy and Economics- 3 credits
- Health Care Information Systems- 3 credits
- Theories of Leadership & Organizational Management- 3 credits
- Methods for Scholarly Inquiry- 3 credits
- The Science and Practice of Nursing- 1 credit
- Translational Research- 3 credits
- Philosophy of Nursing Science- 3 credits
- Evaluation Methodologies for Safety & Quality Improvement- 3 credits
- Theory Development and Evaluation- 3 credits

TOTAL: 31/74 credit hours are fluff courses that should be found in an MPH or graduate school focused on research not a clinical doctorate.

Clinically Useful courses:
- Molecular & Clinical Genetics / Genomics- 3 credits
- Emerging Diseases and Population Health- 3 credits
- NURS 501 Advanced Physiology & Pathophysiology- 4 credits
- Advanced Pharmacotherapeutics for Nursing- 3 credits
- Health Assessment (2 credits)
- Pediatrics in Advanced Practice 3 credits
- Primary Care of the Adult 3 credits
- Advanced Primary Care of the Adult 4 credits
- Women's Health in Advanced Practice Nursing 1 credit
- Issues in Geriatric Health- 1 credit
- Residency (6 credits)
- Practice Inquiry (9 credits)
- 1 credit of electives

Useful courses 43/74 credit hours


So to recap: You take almost the same amount of hours in statistics as you do in pathophysiology AND pharmacology combined!



42% of the coursework for the Arizona DNP has next to nothing to do with clinical practice and are just fluff courses. You cannot honestly say that the DNP was created to be focused on patient care when the courses are not focused on patient care but are rather focused on nursing theory and nursing advancement. Were it really focused on improving patient care you would see a stronger clinical hours requirment and a stronger foundation in the basic clinical sciences.


Here's the link so everyone can look for themselves:
http://www.nursing.arizona.edu/OSA/PDF/programs/Handouts_2008/BSN_DNP_FNP_Handout_2008.pdf

 

[Instatewaiter]

Oh and that is not just the case with arizona, it is found in essentially every program

1) Duke's BSN to DNP:
http://nursing.duke.edu/wysiwyg/downloads/Sample_Post_BSN_DNP_Adult_MAT_Plan.pdf

2) Loyolas MSN to DNP: http://www.luc.edu/nursing/dnp/curriculum.shtml
This is a scary one. If a DNP is supposed to have a better understanding of the basic sciences, where are the basic science classes. It is basically an MPH and has NO new basic science classes. They are all public health classes.

3) Here's a BSN to DNP at MGH (you know, Harvard's Hospital).

DNP in Adult medicine: 51% of the courses are fluff
35/72 credits are real clinical or foundational coures
37/72 are fluff coures.

DNP in FM
46/83 are real clinical or foundational courses
37/83 are fluff (45%)

http://www.mghihp.edu/nursing/postp...culum-overview/RN-to-DNP-Curriculum.html?cw=1

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Everything he said.

Hoody, I disagree with you that people on these forums don't know much about NP/DNP training. If you look at the physician and midlevels forums, there is a TON of information regarding the training (or lack thereof) of NPs and DNPs. So what myself and others have been saying is not some random spouting to make ourselves feel better; it is actually based on all the information there is regarding NP/DNP training. It is precisely due to what Instatewaiter has posted that many physicians feel insulted that DNPs are trying to equate themselves with physicians with such little training.

If people can argue that NPs and DNPs should be allowed to practice independently, why couldn't 4th year med students be allowed also? After all, they'd have had more basic science education plus more clinical hours that what the NP/DNP requires. But they're not allowed to practice independently until they go through a rigorous residency, so I can't see how one can argue that NPs and DNPs are equivalent to physicians and should be allowed to practice without physician supervision.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Let's compare DNP to medical school (not including residency) shall we?

How I did the math: A class that is "3 credit hours" meets for 1 hour 3x per week so during a semester they meet a total of 14 weeks of class or 42 total hours. Thus about 14 hours in the class room is the equivalent of 1 credit hour.

I will use my school (Medical College of Virginia aka VCU) as an example:
Classes 1st year: Biochemistry, Genetics, Population med (statistics), Anatomy, Physiology, Histology, Immunology, Behavioral sciences 1, Foundations of clinical medicine 1, ethics, neurosciences

Classes 2nd year: intro to Pathology, intro to microbiology, intro to pharmacology, Renal, respiratory, cardiology, heme/onc, neuro, psych, OB/GYN, musculoskeletal, GI, endocrine, carreers in medicine, ethics II, foundations of cliical medicine 2.

1st year med school: 778 total hours or the equivalent of 56 credit hours
2nd year med school: 838 hours or the equivalent of 60 credit hours.


Percent of fluff courses/not useful pre-clinical years: 113/1616 or 7% (includes population medicine, ethics I and II, careers in medicine and 1/2 of biochemistry, because let's be honest only half of it was useful for practice)

Clinical years
Roughly 60+ hours per week all in the hospital doing clinical work year round except 3 weeks total- totals 5,000-7,000 clinical hours.


Comparison going from a bachelors to a DNP vs to an MD:

DNP: 80 credits with ~ 50% fluff + 1000 clinical hours
MD: 116 credits with 7% fluff + 6000 clinical hours (plus the residency)

 

[iMD]

sweet, instatewaiter did all the work

 

[Duluth]

I say, give a backhand right across the face to the next b****-a** nurse who thinks she can come and treat a patient over you (a physician). That'd teach her (or him) to stay in her (or his) place.

It takes a big man to threaten violence against women.

 

[adeline]

It takes a big man to threaten violence against women.

dude.
chill....

embrace the facetiousness.

 

[bakanoisha]

It takes a big man to threaten violence against women.

Actually, it does... Women are scary creatures...

 

[Duluth]

You cannot honestly say that the DNP was created to be focused on patient care when the courses are not focused on patient care but are rather focused on nursing theory and nursing advancement.

Stating that theory classes are not focused on patient care is ridiculous.

Nursing theory is patient care.

With that said, Instate, you make some very good points. A DNP is not near the level of education as MD/DO. The DNP is not attempting to be the physician. I have met NPs that do not understand this and attempt to be the physician. They are wrong. They are not as versed in the underlying phsy/pathophsy/pharm to take this role, let alone with enough initial clinical experience. The DNP is focused on midlevel patient care. This is a needed, evidence based practice role in our health care system. Eliminate mid care providers and you would grind our system to a halt.

Many attack NPs based on the level of education they perceive that the programs involve. Online and graduate level programs are the main source of this. I am disappointing in online NP programs. To me these are denigrating to the position. The phasing out of graduate level NP programs is progress. A NP should be held to a higher level of education. To be honest I would love to see diploma/associates RN's phased out. Gaining the clinical skills as well as the theory in a BSN program is something I value. Being a nurse is more than a mastery of clinical skills. However this simply will never happen.

The bottom line for me is what is best for the patient. All members of health care, from the CNA to the surgeon are important. However the most important of all is the patient. It is best not to forget this.

 

[Hoody]

1) From a college degree it requires only 74 credits to get a doctorate. So 2.5 years gets you a doctorate... For those counting that is roughly 6 months more credit hours than you need to get a masters level NP. So there is your 6 months difference.

Getting the NP was 80 credits...so at least TWO years of clinicals and courses. Getting a BSN was 100+ credits, and another TWO years of clinicals plus two years of pre-reqs (like the ones I mentioned wayyyy earlier, ya know, the bio's, chems, maths, anats,phys, pathos, pharms). So another that really equals 6 years + 6 months, not just 6 months. Please don't forget to add these in your calculations. When you advance in nursing, you build off your undergrad and graduate courses, its not like you training for a DNP in 6 months with an entry level undergraduate degree in English.

2) The doctrate (remember straight out of nursing school) requires only 1,000 clinical hours. Again, I did 3-4000 hours by the end of my third year.

I also did nearly 2500 hrs in two years of undergrad. But again, you don't count this anywhere in your calculations. I guess that when you advance from BSN to NP and NP to DNP, your past clinical time counts for nil?


I though med students started clinical rotations in the 3rd year (sorry if I am wrong) If you had 3000 hours by your third year, then you were working 80+/week for 12 months. Residents don't even do that.

~12,000 clinical hours vs 1000 in the DNP.

1000 DNP hours, plus the two years of NP clinical + the two years of BSN clinical = way more than 1000hrs. Again, simple math.


See, its easy to skew the facts if you really want to. Call any DNP admissions department and ask them. You cant get a DNP in 6 months alone and over the sum of all the nursing education required to get a DNP, way more than 1000 clinical hours are amassed.

 

[adeline]

Stating that theory classes are not focused on patient care is ridiculous.

Nursing theory is patient care.

Dude, you really ought to go check with your own org about this. The DNP is an academic degree. It's not about patient care. "Theory" is the politics and procedures side. It has nothing to do with patients.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Getting the NP was 80 credits...so at least TWO years of clinicals and courses. Getting a BSN was 100+ credits, and another TWO years of clinicals plus two years of pre-reqs (like the ones I mentioned wayyyy earlier, ya know, the bio's, chems, maths, anats,phys, pathos, pharms). So another that really equals 6 years + 6 months, not just 6 months. Please don't forget to add these in your calculations. When you advance in nursing, you build off your undergrad and graduate courses, its not like you training for a DNP in 6 months with an entry level undergraduate degree in English.

I also did nearly 2500 hrs in two years of undergrad. But again, you don't count this anywhere in your calculations. I guess that when you advance from BSN to NP and NP to DNP, your past clinical time counts for nil?


I though med students started clinical rotations in the 3rd year (sorry if I am wrong) If you had 3000 hours by your third year, then you were working 80+/week for 12 months. Residents don't even do that.

1000 DNP hours, plus the two years of NP clinical + the two years of BSN clinical = way more than 1000hrs. Again, simple math.


See, its easy to skew the facts if you really want to. Call any DNP admissions department and ask them. You cant get a DNP in 6 months alone and over the sum of all the nursing education required to get a DNP, way more than 1000 clinical hours are amassed.

Hoody, why are you adding in the BSN years? You were not being taught to practice medicine during that time. And when you get clinical hours as a nurse, you are not practicing medicine/thinking like a doctor either. I mean, I've spent a lot of hours volunteering at the hospital and seeing a ton of patients during that time, but that doesn't mean I was thinking like a doctor does during that time. If you insist on adding your BSN courses to the number of years, then you have to add in 4 years for undergrad for med students too. You know, where they take bio, physics, chem, etc. and you have to add in the number of volunteer hours at the hospital and the time spent shadowing. That doesn't make sense right?

So according to your math, BSN + NP + DNP = 6 yrs and 6 months. Then, for physicians, undergrad + med school + residency = 11-13 years, not including subspecialty fellowships. Either way, physicians spend more than twice the amount of time in training as NPs and DNPs before they're allowed to practice independently.

When you go from practicing nursing to practicing medicine, you do have to start fresh again. Unless you're implying that you were practicing medicine as a nurse? That's illegal.

Edit: I realize that prior clincal experience would be helpful but I'm doubtful as to whether it's as helpful in practicing medicine as proponents of midlevels seem to suggest. So correct me if I'm completely wrong on that. It just seems to me that spending a number of years as a nurse doesn't really help in thinking the way a doctor does. I mean, you guys do take a lot of nursing theory courses, which I assume teach you how to think like a nurse and not like a doctor.

 

[TopSecret]

Are you 12? The political body for nursing is pushing for NPs to be seen as equal to physicians. There is no doubt about this.

I agree. It's a turf war with NP's like this leading the charge.

www.doctorkara.com

 

[Hoody]

no degree of higher learning should be completed online.

I so much agree. But eMBAs are a perfect of example of how they are. and how they are successful.

I think the extreme extreme of what we are talking about here is when people who already have a bachelors degree do an accelerated nursing program that takes roughly a year, then do an NP online (clinicals offline) and then complete the DNP. For these people, it is less clinical time and less program time - non traditional as we would say. They are looking at one year for BSN + 2 years for NP + 1 year min DNP. = 4 years. I don't agree with that and that is the extreme.

Nursing pales in comparison to MD/DO training. However, to think that a DNP can be obtained in 6 months and 1000 clinical hrs is asinine. Give credit where credit is due and people aren't crediting the undergrad clinical time and graduate clinical time spent. not fair.

And just for the record, at no time in nursing education, ever, are students paid for clinical work. In reality, most DNPs and advance practice nurses spend 3-4K+ hours in clinical training....paying to play.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I so much agree. But eMBAs are a perfect of example of how they are. and how they are successful.

I think the extreme extreme of what we are talking about here is when people who already have a bachelors degree do an accelerated nursing program that takes roughly a year, then do an NP online (clinicals offline) and then complete the DNP. For these people, it is less clinical time and less program time - non traditional as we would say. They are looking at one year for BSN + 2 years for NP + 1 year min DNP. = 4 years. I don't agree with that and that is the extreme.

Nursing pales in comparison to MD/DO training. However, to think that a DNP can be obtained in 6 months and 1000 clinical hrs is asinine. Give credit where credit is due and people aren't crediting the undergrad clinical time and graduate clinical time spent. not fair.

And just for the record, at no time in nursing education, ever, are students paid for clinical work. In reality, most DNPs and advance practice nurses spend 3-4K+ hours in clinical training....paying to play.

But like I asked previously, how much does clinical time as a nurse really help in the practice of medicine? You're taught to think like a nurse in nursing school (at least that's what I'm assuming based on nursing theory courses being required) while you are taught to think as a doctor in medical school. Sure, all those clinical hours might help a bit, but I feel like it's not as helpful as the nursing community seems to make it out to be.

Also, there are several direct-entry NP programs where you can become an NP in about 3 years with no prior healthcare experience. That's kinda scary if someone with no prior experience in a clinical setting is going to take classes that involve a significant amount of fluff, as Instatewaiter pointed out, and then are allowed to practice independently.

I don't think it's fair to say that clinical time spent as a nurse equals clinical time spent practicing medicine. They're not the same thing, so how can you count the number of years a person was a nurse prior to an NP/DNP as valid clinical hours practicing medicine? Just like I can't say that my volunteer hours count as time spent practicing nursing/medicine, I don't understand how you can say time spent being a nurse = time spent practicing medicine. Seriously, if I'm wrong about it, please provide evidence that years spent as a nurse is equivalent to what a med student does during M3/M4 and what a resident does during residency. But if you can't provide the evidence, you can't say they're equal either.

And can't you earn an NP/DNP part-time? So you can get paid during the time you're earning the degree. Where are you getting the 3000-4000 clinical hours from? I can't see in the NP/DNP curricula anything much more than about a 1000 hours. As for the prior years of nursing experience, please read the earlier bits in my post where I argue that they're not the same as practicing medicine.

 

[TexasFight]

I agree. It's a turf war with NP's like this leading the charge.

www.doctorkara.com

I think that is what SDN thinks of (or at least I do) when someone brings up NPs. They aren't good thoughts.

It's just a problem with perception.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I think that is what SDN thinks of (or at least I do) when someone brings up NPs. They aren't good thoughts.

It's just a problem with perception.

The problem is that the most vocal group of NPs and DNPs are pushing towards equivalency to physicians, equal reimbursement, etc; this group is led by Mary Mundinger. The rest of the NP community hasn't really spoken out against it other than a few posts in various forums saying they don't like what she's saying. In my opinion, watching someone else spread lies without doing anything about it is just as bad as spreading those lies yourself.

 

[Freezer]

hey if any of you cant think of any more bs talking points to sling at each other... please refer to some AMA reports from the early 1900s and replace "DO" with "NP"... should give you some more ammunition... for those of you radical fascists types out there... refer to a 1950s New York Times and replace "african american" with "NP" and "good ole boy country club" with... well i guess you can keep the "good ole boy country club" part in... should do nicely with what you are trying to say...

 

[TopSecret]

hey if any of you cant think of any more bs talking points to sling at each other... please refer to some AMA reports from the early 1900s and replace "DO" with "NP"... should give you some more ammunition... for those of you radical fascists types out there... refer to a 1950s New York Times and replace "african american" with "NP" and "good ole boy country club" with... well i guess you can keep the "good ole boy country club" part in... should do nicely with what you are trying to say...

If NP's want to be MD's, they should go to medical school. They have the opportunity.

 

[bakanoisha]

hey if any of you cant think of any more bs talking points to sling at each other... please refer to some AMA reports from the early 1900s and replace "DO" with "NP"... should give you some more ammunition... for those of you radical fascists types out there... refer to a 1950s New York Times and replace "african american" with "NP" and "good ole boy country club" with... well i guess you can keep the "good ole boy country club" part in... should do nicely with what you are trying to say...

You officially win the "off by a long shot" award. Your comparisons are not only way off, but completely inappropriate.

thumbdownthumbdownthumbdown

 

[Freezer]

If NP's want to be MD's, they should go to medical school. They have the opportunity.

"if they[Osteopaths] want to be recognized as physicians by our medical community, then they can attend the medical colleges put in place by our medical community." -Sen. Tasker Oddie 1930-

great stuff man... keep up the good work...

 

[TopSecret]

"if they[Osteopaths] want to be recognized as physicians by our medical community, then they can attend the medical colleges put in place by our medical community." -Sen. Tasker Oddie 1930-

great stuff man... keep up the good work...

Do you agree to lowering our standards and admitting everybody who wants to be a doctor?