Nurse Practitioners (DNP) the new DO?

[Carbocation1]

I have NEVER heard a physician, much less an anesthesiologist, refer to an anesthesiologist as an MDA before. But, of course, it's a random person on the internet with a blog so he/she MUST be a real doctor

Read his other posts... dude is a legit anesthesiologist. Everyone knows his blog.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Read his other posts... dude is a legit anesthesiologist. Everyone knows his blog.

Apparently not

 

[Stedari]

I've said it before and I will say it again:
The less knowledgeable the individual the more confident they are. Think about how cocky EMTs are when talking about medicine... They simply don't know what they don't know.

 

[image187]

I've said it before and I will say it again:
The less knowledgeable the individual the more confident they are. Think about how cocky EMTs are when talking about medicine... They simply don't know what they don't know.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

 

[TheTao]

Actually if you do one of the fast-track direct admit programs you can finish a lot quicker than the traditional DNP route. And even if you go the traditional DNP route, you get paid the entire time because you're working a real job while you're going to DNP school. Not to mention it's a lot easier to get into and far less stressful.

The shortest time frame I've seen is 6 years, from RN-BSN to DNP. And working and going to school is NO JOKE.

That's why if the choice is DNP versus MD and a person really wants the MD but is concerned about time to completion, I think they should just go for the MD. For me, getting paid while in school wouldn't be enough of an incentive to give on med school.

 

[W19]

The shortest time frame I've seen is 6 years, from RN-BSN to DNP. And working and going to school is NO JOKE.

That's why if the choice is DNP versus MD and a person really wants the MD but is concerned about time to completion, I think they should just go for the MD. For me, getting paid while in school wouldn't be enough of an incentive to give on med school.

You also have to take into account the opportunity cost too; however, the incentive is not that much IMO... Most of these people who go to NP school would not be able to get into MD/DO and even PA school IMO.

 

[chipwhitley]

The shortest time frame I've seen is 6 years, from RN-BSN to DNP. And working and going to school is NO JOKE.

My friend is in one of those DNP programs and she works and goes to classes about 2 nights per week. It's really not that bad at all.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

My friend is in one of those DNP programs and she works and goes to classes about 2 nights per week. It's really not that bad at all.

For real...what you mean you have to work your 3 12s a week AND go to class a few hours a day for 2 other days AND get two days off?? Sounds tough.

 

[DrMaccoman]

found a good comparision
"Would a lawyer be mad/threatened if there was a 12 month course to give a paralegal all the rights/privileges of a lawyer? Would a nurse be mad/threatened if there was a 6-month degree that allowed EMTs or MAs practice nursing? What if those "degrees" in many cases were offered online?

Of course they would be mad. Is that surprising? Why should physicians not be the same?"

 

[chipwhitley]

found a good comparision
"Would a lawyer be mad/threatened if there was a 12 month course to give a paralegal all the rights/privileges of a lawyer? Would a nurse be mad/threatened if there was a 6-month degree that allowed EMTs or MAs practice nursing? What if those "degrees" in many cases were offered online?

Of course they would be mad. Is that surprising? Why should physicians not be the same?"

The difference is both lawyers and nurses would actually do something about it. They'd either shut these programs down completely or keep their practice rights severely restricted. We on the other hand are doing nothing. In fact, some of us are embracing it.

 

[W19]

The difference is both lawyers and nurses would actually do something about it. They'd either shut these programs down completely or keep their practice rights severely restricted. We on the other hand are doing nothing. In fact, some of us are embracing it.

The 'older' physicians are making a lot of money using NP/PA, so I guess it's ok for them as long as they are profiting from it... For instance, my PCP has 2 offices and she staff them with NP/PA... I have been going to both clinics for 7 years and I saw her once. I guess she probably works <40 hrs/wk and have other people making money for her...

 

[chipwhitley]

The 'older' physicians are making a lot of money using NP/PA, so I guess it's ok for them as long as they are profiting from it... For instance, my PCP has 2 offices and she staff them with NP/PA... I have been going to both clinics for 7 years and I saw her once. I guess she probably works <40 hrs/wk and have other people making money for her...

And because of people like your PCP, the NPs can say - hey look, we are doing all the work on our own anyway with minimal to no supervision, we should be able to practice independently. It's really hard to argue against that.

 

[TheTao]

I think one end result of all this is that medical care will be divided into "tiers". If your willing to pay more money, you get to see a real Doc. Otherwise, off to the DNP you go.

Just like it was a Lawyer's kid's death that got the Residency hours "changed", something similar will need to happen with someone "important" under care of a midlevel/DNP/NP.

 

[moisne]

cocky EMT

One paramedic (or was it EMT?) said to me "I can't believe this OBYGN nurse yelled at me for delivering a baby. I mean, I know she's the 'expert' in baby delivering, but guess what? I'm an expert in delivering babies, cardiac, respiratory, trauma, endocrine, everything"
(Uh... no, you are an expert at keeping them alive enough with only the supplies in the ambulance in the transport).

We just all wanna be good at something :/

 

[DrDarce]

One paramedic (or was it EMT?) said to me "I can't believe this OBYGN nurse yelled at me for delivering a baby. I mean, I know she's the 'expert' in baby delivering, but guess what? I'm an expert in delivering babies, cardiac, respiratory, trauma, endocrine, everything"
(Uh... no, you are an expert at keeping them alive enough with only the supplies in the ambulance in the transport).

We just all wanna be good at something :/

LOL yeah, when I was an EMT I met quite a few paramedics with that same attitude.

 

[Psai]

One paramedic (or was it EMT?) said to me "I can't believe this OBYGN nurse yelled at me for delivering a baby. I mean, I know she's the 'expert' in baby delivering, but guess what? I'm an expert in delivering babies, cardiac, respiratory, trauma, endocrine, everything"
(Uh... no, you are an expert at keeping them alive enough with only the supplies in the ambulance in the transport).

We just all wanna be good at something :/

No they're only the expert at stomping down on the gas pedal. Not sure why everyone wants to think they are more than they are

 

[HopefulDoc16]

I am currently an NP and accepted to both MD and DO programs. I went back because I felt the education was definitely subpar and I would never be comfortable without supervision for anything more that basic conditions, which is what you learn. And I definitely don't want to do that for the rest of my career. So, coming from an NP, I am against independent practice.
I was also an EMT at one point and you know NOTHING. Its a 3 month course. Then 1 year for paramedic. You do know your ALS though, down pat.

 

[giantswing]

One paramedic (or was it EMT?) said to me "I can't believe this OBYGN nurse yelled at me for delivering a baby. I mean, I know she's the 'expert' in baby delivering, but guess what? I'm an expert in delivering babies, cardiac, respiratory, trauma, endocrine, everything"
(Uh... no, you are an expert at keeping them alive enough with only the supplies in the ambulance in the transport).

We just all wanna be good at something :/

And nurses aren't exactly experts in baby delivering either.

 

[moisne]

And nurses aren't exactly experts in baby delivering either.

if a paramedic is an expert in cardiac - then OBGYN for sure is an expert in delivering babies. I have to now figure out what I'm an expert in...

 

[xanybar]

A lizard can wish for a thousand years to be a dragon but will never be...

 

[xanybar]

Don't you hate how it's not PC to introduce yourself as Dr so and so to RN, MAs and such because "we're all on the same team, no one is more important." hahah and now they want to call themselves doctors.

 

[chipwhitley]

Don't you hate how it's not PC to introduce yourself as Dr so and so to RN, MAs and such because "we're all on the same team, no one is more important." hahah and now they want to call themselves doctors.

The whole thing is becoming a joke.

 

[Psai]

Don't you hate how it's not PC to introduce yourself as Dr so and so to RN, MAs and such because "we're all on the same team, no one is more important." hahah and now they want to call themselves doctors.

Since when is it not pc to introduce yourself as a doctor?

 

[W19]

The whole thing is becoming a joke.

My professionalism class is all about being part of a team in which everyone's input is equal and important... and other BS that physicians have to put up with...

 

[chipwhitley]

Since when is it not pc to introduce yourself as a doctor?

It's not PC because we're all equal members of the team. We shouldn't use a title that makes ourselves seem more important than anyone else, I suppose. Also it's not fair that we call ourselves doctor but DNPs can't despite possessing a doctorate degree, right?

 

[Drew2128]

I am currently an NP and accepted to both MD and DO programs. I went back because I felt the education was definitely subpar and I would never be comfortable without supervision for anything more that basic conditions, which is what you learn. And I definitely don't want to do that for the rest of my career. So, coming from an NP, I am against independent practice.
I was also an EMT at one point and you know NOTHING. Its a 3 month course. Then 1 year for paramedic. You do know your ALS though, down pat.

Nice to see a fellow nurse to MD . I agree with you. Most nurses dont know what they dont know. I know what I dont know because I love to read up on things. I was always the person asking why in nursing school. I remember my professors getting mad at me with their DPN's, but couldnt answer basic patho questions and tried to keep me quiet. I respect nurses for what they do, but to be an independent provider I dont agree with unless its something basic or specialized. There are a few NP's that are exceptional but many schools just push NP's out the door without the proper training. However, I feel like what NP's make is a fair salary. Doctor's just need to make more.

 

[FNP_Blix]

It's possible that ARNPs, in maybe in the next few decades, may radically change their trajectory and have a similar transformation like the DOs did long ago; maybe like a NP Flexner report equivalent; but I seriously doubt it. NPs will remain allied with the nursing profession, and if anything, the DNP will just become the nursing field's own brand of a physician, if you will.

Regardless, NPs are (and will remain) as adjuncts to healthcare services, typically in the setting where physicians need the extra help in their growing practices, and for patients who lack access to physicians.

Because of the data I've seen so far (showing safe and efficacious care) I personally believe all Advanced Practice Nurses (i.e., NPs, CRNAs, CNMs) should have independent practice authority in all the states. I don't see why not, so long as they remain within their scope of practice.

 

[clamsauce]

Sure let nps have ind practice. See how the lawsuits go since nurses are so much better than docs. I mean not only are they the best pcps but they care too!!!!!!!!! Medical school is just a waste of time where we drink beer and make fun of less intellectual minds. Nobody needs us. Hell. Let nurses do surgery too.
Proof of their superiority :
Misconceptions in NP/PA/MD education: experiential requirements, online, and for-profits | allnurses

 

[DPTinthemaking15]

Me then: *Leaves physical therapy school to pursue the greatness that is, medical school*
Me now: *clicks on this thread*

 

[FNP_Blix]

Sure let nps have ind practice. See how the lawsuits go since nurses are so much better than docs. I mean not only are they the best pcps but they care too!!!!!!!!! Medical school is just a waste of time where we drink beer and make fun of less intellectual minds. Nobody needs us. Hell. Let nurses do surgery too.
Proof of their superiority :
Misconceptions in NP/PA/MD education: experiential requirements, online, and for-profits | allnurses

Me then: *Leaves physical therapy school to pursue the greatness that is, medical school*
Me now: *clicks on this thread*

lol quite a response from you two. Okay, so I apologize. I stirred the pot a bit with my reply in this thread, admittedly to see how some of you would react. This is def. a hot button issue and I joined SDN to actually raise some awareness about NPs and try to have discussion with physicians and medical students. I think that if you have the opportunity to talk to an NP and truly say how you feel, we can actually begin to have a discussion about your concerns regarding my profession. I too have some concerns. So I am here to give you the opportunity to talk to a real, live NP where we can actually discuss and/or debate on this issue. That is, why APNs (in particular the NP) should or shouldn't practice independently.

So clamsauce, I will tee things off...
1.In response to you point on NPs getting sued a lot, the truth is that actually mid-levels in general reduce med mal suits for hospitals and practices (Article 14 in the attachment below). We are now getting sued as independent providers, so the argument by physicians no longer holds that we have been "hiding behind their malpractice insurance." Suffice it say, only 2% of NPs have ever been the primary defendant in a med mal suit.
2. Next, no one is claiming that NPs are better than doctors. NPs want more physicians just as physicians want more physicians. We need them. We are simply in existence because we serve as adjuncts in medicine to increase throughput, and increase access to health care services in both urban and rural areas (http://depts.washington.edu/uwrhrc/uploads/RHRC_FR137_Skillman.pdf).
3.It is only in certain outcomes of measures (though very important) where NPs (with lots of experience) have been proven to be equal to physicians (Primary Care Outcomes in Patients Treated by Nurse Practitioners or Physicians).

 

[NonTrad16]

lol quite a response from you two. Okay, so I apologize. I stirred the pot a bit with my reply in this thread, admittedly to see how some of you would react. This is def. a hot button issue and I joined SDN to actually raise some awareness about NPs and try to have discussion with physicians and medical students. I think that if you have the opportunity to talk to an NP and truly say how you feel, we can actually begin to have a discussion about your concerns regarding my profession. I too have some concerns. So I am here to give you the opportunity to talk to a real, live NP where we can actually discuss and/or debate on this issue. That is, why APNs (in particular the NP) should or shouldn't practice independently.

Why bump a 2 year old thread, when you already tried to debate in a thread that has since quieted.

My view: rather than explain why NPs should be independent here, you should approach NP leadership and work on the deficits that you (and many others) see.

 

[FNP_Blix]

Why bump a 2 year old thread, when you already tried to debate in a thread that has since quieted.

My view: rather than explain why NPs should be independent here, you should approach NP leadership and work on the deficits that you (and many others) see.

I realize this is an old thread, but I'm intentionally bumping multiple threads on SDN, related to this topic, to reach the widest audience and have this discussion. I just want to get a feel for how people stand now 2 years later. But you're actually right NonTrad16, I should approach NP leadership and maybe advocate for higher standards and to do away with some of these schools that are popping up. Nevertheless, I feel its necessary for me to have discussions here as well to advocate for the majority of NPs that are out there doing good too.

 

[dr zaius]

Why not make a thread in the family medicine subforum? The audience here is primarily made of medical students, bored residents on research blocks *ahem*, and the occasional stray attending. In short, mostly people that are not doctors yet.

 

[FNP_Blix]

Why not make a thread in the family medicine subforum? The audience here is primarily made of medical students, bored residents on research blocks *ahem*, and the occasional stray attending. In short, mostly people that are not doctors yet.

I will find that one. Good suggestion.

 

[Promethean]

You don't really need to raise our awareness. We are aware. We just aren't especially impressed.

I went to medical school because I examined the educational rigor of NP programs and came away pretty clear on how substandard they are. It would have been a lot faster and cheaper than going to medical school, but I would have been a lot less happy with my preparation for the kind of practice that I want to run.

Example from this week... A DNP student has just retained my services to teach her basic exam skills. She has several years of experience as a floor nurse, and yet... she doesn't know how to use an otoscope or an ophthalmoscope. Her DNP program is all online, except that now, nearing graduation, she is coming up on the one weekend where she has to travel to a "practicum" site to demonstrate proficiency in skills that she has only ever seen in videos. That. That kind of nonsense is why NPs aren't being treated on parity with physicians. Because it is possible to become a DNP with two years of post graduate fully online "education" which mostly seems to consist of "research papers" based upon literature review. That is, it is possible to read (and half-understand) actual research done by others, to write a 5 page paper and get credit toward a doctorate level degree. And because one can do two years of this make work nonsense and only be required to attend a 1.5 day workshop to demonstrate that one possesses adequate clinical skills to be turned loose as a newly minted Doctor Nurse who is sure that what one has just gone through is every bit as rigorous as medical school. After all, that stats course was really tough, what with all the math.

I'm not actually anti nurse. I am a nurse, and I always will be one, even after I've earned my medical degree and been granted a license to practice medicine. I'm not anti-NP. There is a role for nurse practitioners on a physician-lead health care team, and in such a setting, they bring a valuable perspective to patient care. However, they are not replacements for physicians... certainly not while their education is so inconsistent.

*AFTER* that Flexner-style reform of NP education, *THEN* you will be entitled to the status you so desperately wish to deserve. In the meantime, no amount of "raising awareness" or "stimulating conversations" is going to help your cause. Fix the faulty foundation and you won't need to talk up NPs. Genuine quality speaks for itself.

 

[Promethean]

Twin Cities jury awards $20M in malpractice case for woman who died after giving birth

NP in the ER sent a recent postpartum woman home to die of sepsis. Told her she probably had a UTI. 20 Million verdict is the largest wrongful death verdict in state history.

The historically low levels of lawsuits involving inadequately prepared NPs practicing above their true level of competence may be attributable to the fact that, for most of the existence of the NP role, it has been a supervised role. Nurses who have lobbied for greater autonomy are finding that this also means accepting greater liability. Hubris will prove to be expensive, though that may not declare itself until a few more years have passed. But be sure, the hit and miss nature of NP education is no secret to the lawyers who are going to bring those cases, and that is ultimately how you will get your Flexner reform. A few largest ever verdicts gets very pricey and embarrassing real fast. Enough to force the reform that y'all are otherwise happy to talk about as something that would be nice to get around to implementing, you know, someday.

 

[FNP_Blix]

You don't really need to raise our awareness. We are aware. We just aren't especially impressed.

I went to medical school because I examined the educational rigor of NP programs and came away pretty clear on how substandard they are. It would have been a lot faster and cheaper than going to medical school, but I would have been a lot less happy with my preparation for the kind of practice that I want to run.

Example from this week... A DNP student has just retained my services to teach her basic exam skills. She has several years of experience as a floor nurse, and yet... she doesn't know how to use an otoscope or an ophthalmoscope. Her DNP program is all online, except that now, nearing graduation, she is coming up on the one weekend where she has to travel to a "practicum" site to demonstrate proficiency in skills that she has only ever seen in videos. That. That kind of nonsense is why NPs aren't being treated on parity with physicians. Because it is possible to become a DNP with two years of post graduate fully online "education" which mostly seems to consist of "research papers" based upon literature review. That is, it is possible to read (and half-understand) actual research done by others, to write a 5 page paper and get credit toward a doctorate level degree. And because one can do two years of this make work nonsense and only be required to attend a 1.5 day workshop to demonstrate that one possesses adequate clinical skills to be turned loose as a newly minted Doctor Nurse who is sure that what one has just gone through is every bit as rigorous as medical school. After all, that stats course was really tough, what with all the math.

I'm not actually anti nurse. I am a nurse, and I always will be one, even after I've earned my medical degree and been granted a license to practice medicine. I'm not anti-NP. There is a role for nurse practitioners on a physician-lead health care team, and in such a setting, they bring a valuable perspective to patient care. However, they are not replacements for physicians... certainly not while their education is so inconsistent.

*AFTER* that Flexner-style reform of NP education, *THEN* you will be entitled to the status you so desperately wish to deserve. In the meantime, no amount of "raising awareness" or "stimulating conversations" is going to help your cause. Fix the faulty foundation and you won't need to talk up NPs. Genuine quality speaks for itself.

I agree that there is a lot of variability in our education. Wish I could change that, but I'm not really sure how..and regarding your student (which btw thank you for taking NP students), that's just crazy she didn't know how to use an otoscope or ophthalmoscope. I actually really have a hard time believing that...For the majority of NPs out there practicing, I'd say a vast majority of them are doing a good job and have been trained well. They already are practicing independently in many states and are doing just fine. Nor do they claim to be physicians. For me, I don't care to be called a doctor or strive to be one. I am content as an FNP and I demonstrate my own genuine quality...I come here to iron out the details and to really see why physicians are so opposed to NPs when most of the clinical practice data, malpractice data, etc. points to NPs being advantageous for society. In areas where physicians are simply not available (urban or rural), or in settings where physicians are drowning, or when there are unnecessary restrictions (e.g., NPs not being able to order diabetic shoes or consult physical therapy services) that decrease access to other services, why do you feel that NPs shouldn't practice independently? Almost half the country already is on board with this and agrees with my position. So why dont you? NPs are (or should be) practicing within their scope, which means it will basically be simple cases (simple-intermediate difficulty level cases)... "Supervision" seems more of a formality more than anything else. Most of the time, chart reviews by physicians are retrospective and they simply sign off without truly reviewing the work because they 9/10 will trust the mid-level they are working with.

 

[FNP_Blix]

Twin Cities jury awards $20M in malpractice case for woman who died after giving birth

NP in the ER sent a recent postpartum woman home to die of sepsis. Told her she probably had a UTI. 20 Million verdict is the largest wrongful death verdict in state history.

The historically low levels of lawsuits involving inadequately prepared NPs practicing above their true level of competence may be attributable to the fact that, for most of the existence of the NP role, it has been a supervised role. Nurses who have lobbied for greater autonomy are finding that this also means accepting greater liability. Hubris will prove to be expensive, though that may not declare itself until a few more years have passed. But be sure, the hit and miss nature of NP education is no secret to the lawyers who are going to bring those cases, and that is ultimately how you will get your Flexner reform. A few largest ever verdicts gets very pricey and embarrassing real fast. Enough to force the reform that y'all are otherwise happy to talk about as something that would be nice to get around to implementing, you know, someday.

The 2nd largest med mal case in history was from a supervised PA (falsifying his credentials and misdiagnosing a patient resulting in death)...Supervision doesn't protect from med mal suits on NPs. May mean that the physician gets sued too, but doesnt mean immunity for the extendor in that suit. Furthermore, Physicians usually are not "supervising" but merely signing charts. Maybe initially they will actually supervise but eventually they will let their mid-levels practice solo. The argument that you just made and that many physicians make is simply not accurate regarding malpractice cases on NPs.

 

[clamsauce]

When the wizards of nursing mention the higher rate of malpractice in physicians they always forget to leave out that it's usually the high risk specialties that get sued.

Just a bit harder to get sued when your managing grannies BP vs removing a brain tumor or really any type of surgery. Plus often the physicians are named in mid level disaster cases since ultimately it is their license and plaintiffs feel the dollars flowing from the docs belt buckle and take higher aim.

 

[clamsauce]

Hey now somebody has to write up all those studies done by the nursing demigods propagating NP care = MD care. Might as well have the DNP'ers do it in their Jammies paying out all that tuition money.
Bet if we look at DNP curriculum it says in the fine print "must conjure up one study showing NP= MD in less time, online, less science, and more FLAWNCE nightingale gale action

 

[FNP_Blix]

When the wizards of nursing mention the higher rate of malpractice in physicians they always forget to leave out that it's usually the high risk specialties that get sued.

Just a bit harder to get sued when your managing grannies BP vs removing a brain tumor or really any type of surgery. Plus often the physicians are named in mid level disaster cases since ultimately it is their license and plaintiffs feel the dollars flowing from the docs belt buckle and take higher aim.

lol Are you 15 years old or something? Why do you talk like that rather than professionally present your arguments? Anyway, the point is that mid levels actually bring down the rate of lawsuits for any practice in any specialty. And yes, you are right about physicians in riskier specialties, but I am actually comparing GPs to NPs.

 

[FNP_Blix]

Hey now somebody has to write up all those studies done by the nursing demigods propagating NP care = MD care. Might as well have the DNP'ers do it in their Jammies paying out all that tuition money.
Bet if we look at DNP curriculum it says in the fine print "must conjure up one study showing NP= MD in less time, online, less science, and more FLAWNCE nightingale gale action

Really? Lol

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Because of the data I've seen so far (showing safe and efficacious care) I personally believe all Advanced Practice Nurses (i.e., NPs, CRNAs, CNMs) should have independent practice authority in all the states.

when most of the clinical practice data, malpractice data, etc. points to NPs being advantageous for society

Because my one year old has crayon drawings that are worth about as much as those "studies." The so called data that you cite has serious design flaws. On top of all of that most NP curriculums are very lacking in depth on basic medical sciences like pathology, anatomy, or pharm.

Supervision" seems more of a formality more than anything else.

No, it's a safeguard. Mid-levels definitely have a role in healthcare and do very well when they stay in that role, but autonomous practice should not be that role. What always gets me is that very few of the NPs I used to work with would even agree with you on how NPs should all have autonomous practice rights, and they openly say they don't want that because they don't have the training for it. The best NPs, or PAs, that I've met all worked under a physician and were very good at what they did because they were an open book and picked up lots of skills from their physician and tried to mimic what they did.

 

[Psai]

You dont need to raise awareness about nps. I see their incompetence daily.

 

[FNP_Blix]

Because my one year old has crayon drawings that are worth about as much as those "studies." The so called data that you cite has serious design flaws. On top of all of that most NP curriculums are very lacking in depth on basic medical sciences like pathology, anatomy, or pharm.



No, it's a safeguard. Mid-levels definitely have a role in healthcare and do very well when they stay in that role, but autonomous practice should not be that role. What always gets me is that very few of the NPs I used to work with would even agree with you on how NPs should all have autonomous practice rights, and they openly say they don't want that because they don't have the training for it. The best NPs, or PAs, that I've met all worked under a physician and were very good at what they did because they were an open book and picked up lots of skills from their physician and tried to mimic what they did.

The data Out there is not perfect but far better than what you've provided to disprove NP safety and efficacy. I would also disagree about our training not being adequate. You didnt adress my question about NPs being autonomous in areas where its needed, nor did you speak to the NPs already practicing freely.

 

[clamsauce]

30 years from now everybody in the hospital will be a doctor, "hello sir, this is Dr. jay your janitor, dr Nancy, your nurse, dr rick your RT, Dr. Sarah our secretary. She is a new doctor though, just got her doctorate in secretarial science from kaplan last month. She's very special since she did research on the best time to call the operator by graphing the probability they were on their smoke break. She always gets thru first call. And here comes dr frank. He's the new food worker. Makes the meanest freezer fresh chicken tenders on this side the Mississippi.

 

[jw3600]

It's possible that ARNPs, in maybe in the next few decades, may radically change their trajectory and have a similar transformation like the DOs did long ago; maybe like a NP Flexner report equivalent; but I seriously doubt it. NPs will remain allied with the nursing profession, and if anything, the DNP will just become the nursing field's own brand of a physician, if you will.

Regardless, NPs are (and will remain) as adjuncts to healthcare services, typically in the setting where physicians need the extra help in their growing practices, and for patients who lack access to physicians.

Because of the data I've seen so far (showing safe and efficacious care) I personally believe all Advanced Practice Nurses (i.e., NPs, CRNAs, CNMs) should have independent practice authority in all the states. I don't see why not, so long as they remain within their scope of practice.

The data Out there is not perfect but far better than what you've provided to disprove NP safety and efficacy. I would also disagree about our training not being adequate. You didnt adress my question about NPs being autonomous in areas where its needed, nor did you speak to the NPs already practicing freely.

Aren't you like the 26 year old nurse?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

The data Out there is not perfect but far better than what you've provided to disprove NP safety and efficacy.

Not really, that's how bad your "data" is.

I would also disagree about our training not being adequate

Of course you would.

You didnt adress my question about NPs being autonomous in areas where its needed,

NPs are no more likely to practice in crappy locations than MDs.

nor did you speak to the NPs already practicing freely

Does this matter? We used to see stuff NPs missed all the time in the OR, surgery that could have been avoided by timely and appropriate care, or cases that became a lot worse than they needed to be. Let's not even bring up the NPs who will throw a Z pak at anything that sniffles.

 

[DPTinthemaking15]

The data Out there is not perfect but far better than what you've provided to disprove NP safety and efficacy. I would also disagree about our training not being adequate. You didnt adress my question about NPs being autonomous in areas where its needed, nor did you speak to the NPs already practicing freely.

Hmmm... I'll bite. If you don't mind, can you tickle my fancy as to why NP's pursue the DNP? After going through *some* physical therapy courses, I learned that the DPT degree was created to take back rights from chiropractors. What is the point of the DNP in your perspective (not what the website states)? Also, if some nurses are wanting the coveted "Dr." title, why not pursue medical school? I'm seriously not trying to be rude. I asked my fellow PT students the same thing.

 

[Mad Jack]

The NP argument again? I placed this person on ignore a few weeks back for a reason, I can't waste that many hours of my life. I'm just going to let NP practice happen, even hire some myself that are under supervision as part of their contract, then when we've got bad outcomes from independent NPs elsewhere I'll rake in the cash as an expert witness. Why fight it when you can profit from it?