Nurse practitioners want to end primayr care physicians

[DrMaccoman]

Enjoy. Looks like some mds joining in.

http://allnurses.com/nurse-practitioners-np/the-decline-of-1072216.html

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Dr. Janitor]

"Oregon equal pay for equal work law has been signed into law in an independent practice state with NP's and PA's getting paid FULL amount from private insurance. This means that a new grad NP's will be paid the same amount as an attending family physician and psychiatrist and also have the same rights and scope of practice as a family physician and psychiatrist."

I wonder if this law makes them just as legally responsible/liable as physicians or if they chose to ignore that in addition to evading the years of training docs go through (med school + residency)?

 

[mrjbb]

I read through some of it. It's comical how a majority of them try to down play physician training and the need for PCP's as a whole. Most PGY1 training exceeds that of an entire NP clinical exposure. Yet, they feel equals (education wise) or in some instances far superior to a physician?! I do not wish to minimize the need for them, or offend anyone.

We all can agree that PA's and NP's play an important role in our healthcare system. I see them more as a second line of defense, ancillary at best in very rural areas.

 

[Brorthopedic]

AAC.271, BSN, RN, EMT-B

On the job training like everyhting is the most important. Lengt of education doesnt matter. Studies shown np are supeiror if not equal providers compared to md. Np education is more efficient than md education which wastes a tremendous amount of time and money.

This is what we're up against, arrogance fueled by anger

 

[thxleave]

It doesn't help that we are constantly bickering against each other. MD vs DO vs Carib MD. ****ting on other specialties.

While NPs and PAs are systematically gathering power and diminishing the rigors of medical school/residency.

Why would anyone recommend medicine for 10x the work, when you can become a mid level for 1/10th the work and only half the pay. (Though I hear some nurses in the Bay Area making more then FM docs)

 

[deafdealer]

"Oregon equal pay for equal work law has been signed into law in an independent practice state with NP's and PA's getting paid FULL amount from private insurance. This means that a new grad NP's will be paid the same amount as an attending family physician and psychiatrist and also have the same rights and scope of practice as a family physician and psychiatrist."

I wonder if this law makes them just as legally responsible/liable as physicians or if they chose to ignore that in addition to evading the years of training docs go through (med school + residency)?

This law will set the precedent that will be their undoing. The only reason they exist is because they cost less.

 

[deafdealer]

I read through some of it. It's comical how a majority of them try to down play physician training and the need for PCP's as a whole. Most PGY1 training exceeds that of an entire NP clinical exposure. Yet, they feel equals (education wise) or in some instances far superior to a physician?! I do not wish to minimize the need for them, or offend anyone.

We all can agree that PA's and NP's play an important role in our healthcare system. I see them more as a second line of defense, ancillary at best in very rural areas.

No we can't. There is no such thing as 'Team-Based" medicine. This is a propaganda narrative used to surround physicians with people who cost less.

 

[Psai]

I'm pleasantly surprised at how reasonable many of the replies are

 

[mrjbb]

No we can't. There is no such thing as 'Team-Based" medicine. This is a propaganda narrative used to surround physicians with people who cost less.

I meant mostly in rural areas where some physicians aren't willing to practice in. Where the population is at a disadvantage when it comes to physician-based care.

 

[NickNaylor]

I would suggest avoiding AllNurses at all costs. It's easy bait here on SDN given the audience of this forum. However, like all online communities, they tend to be filled with the extremes of their target population (particularly the people that post), one way or another.

 

[Tenk]

"Oregon equal pay for equal work law has been signed into law in an independent practice state with NP's and PA's getting paid FULL amount from private insurance. This means that a new grad NP's will be paid the same amount as an attending family physician and psychiatrist and also have the same rights and scope of practice as a family physician and psychiatrist."

I wonder if this law makes them just as legally responsible/liable as physicians or if they chose to ignore that in addition to evading the years of training docs go through (med school + residency)?

PCPs rarely get sued. It's the perfect place if you're looking for little to no legal liability.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I feel my blood pressure rising reading more than 2 pages into that thread, so I'm going to stop. Especially the "My NP class took the same classes as medical school, therefore we're all the same hurr durr"

 

[deafdealer]

I meant mostly in rural areas where some physicians aren't willing to practice in. Where the population is at a disadvantage when it comes to physician-based care.

Nurses don't want to go work in the middle of Mississippi anymore than we do

 

[Redpancreas]

It doesn't help that we are constantly bickering against each other. MD vs DO vs Carib MD. ****ting on other specialties.

While NPs and PAs are systematically gathering power and diminishing the rigors of medical school/residency.

Why would anyone recommend medicine for 10x the work, when you can become a mid level for 1/10th the work and only half the pay. (Though I hear some nurses in the Bay Area making more then FM docs)

Not so fast with the Caribs lol


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Dr. Janitor]

PCPs rarely get sued. It's the perfect place if you're looking for little to no legal liability.

True, but someone still has to bare the brunt of legal responsibility. If they're getting the pay & autonomy then who covers their liability?

I'm asking because I don't know and I'm not from Oregon so I'm not familiar at all with this law.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

I feel my blood pressure rising reading more than 2 pages into that thread, so I'm going to stop. Especially the "My NP class took the same classes as medical school, therefore we're all the same hurr durr"

My favorite part was on page 3 when the BSNs started equating their A&P courses to Med School level anatomy lol

They were also parroting off stuff like "most med students never even see a patient until their first year of residency" or "Doctors create the illusion of a physician shortage to protect their own jobs from NPs"

My personal favorite was "I believe we should completely eliminate doctors from the primary care fields. Leave primary care and emergency to NPs and nurses, and let doctors Better utilize their education in specialties. Eventually I see physicians being eliminated entirely from healthcare in favor of NPs and PAs."

And this is how medicine dies. Crushed In the hands of the bitter, uneducated masses afflicted with an inferiority complex.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Dr. Janitor]

Here's a gem from that thread:

General family practice physicians will complete 4 yrs of medical school then a 2 yr residency program. They do not usually touch a patient until their 4th year of med school.
A fellowship is not necessary for the family physician as fellowships will lead to specialization. That being said, some GPs do go through fellowships. Most of the GPs I've worked with began right after residency. I am not disputing the difference between med school and NP education here, for the record. I am simply pointing out that family practice physicians may have the bare minimum in education, same as FNP, before entering the paid workforce. FNP clinical rotations focus on primary care, not every specialty like medical residency. The clinical hours vary depending on the program, but typically require 500-1000 hours (mine was 750) or minimum 12 weeks, max 25 weeks in family practice. - Queen of Hearts, DNP

Here's what I gathered from this poster...
1) They have no idea how med school & residency works
2) Using their words, since NP's only get exposure to primary care they have zero exposure to anything else involved in their patients treatment
3) 25 Total weeks of clinical exposure before being turned loose on patients...*Golf clap*

Apparently NP education must be better than MD/DO or they're a lot smarter than us to learn everything in such a small amount of time....Must be true since they're a "doctor"

 

[evilbooyaa]

That queen of hearts person on that forum is the most special brand of NP crazy, more so than most of the others.

 

[Stagg737]

I feel my blood pressure rising reading more than 2 pages into that thread, so I'm going to stop. Especially the "My NP class took the same classes as medical school, therefore we're all the same hurr durr"

Pleasantly surprised to see that guy getting shot down by other NPs for that statement. Keep in mind, that's what we're fighting though, and as a whole they're far more organized, represented, and organized than physicians are. It's one of many reasons I'm in favor of getting DO and MD schools under the same accreditation systems for both residency and med school. Of course, that might not matter if Hillary gets her way and implements a single payer system, but it would be nice if physicians as a whole could get their s*** together and do anything to slow this trend up before we have no power at all. That's probably just wishful thinking though.

 

[TaroBubbleTea]

Here's a gem from that thread:

General family practice physicians will complete 4 yrs of medical school then a 2 yr residency program. They do not usually touch a patient until their 4th year of med school.
A fellowship is not necessary for the family physician as fellowships will lead to specialization. That being said, some GPs do go through fellowships. Most of the GPs I've worked with began right after residency. I am not disputing the difference between med school and NP education here, for the record. I am simply pointing out that family practice physicians may have the bare minimum in education, same as FNP, before entering the paid workforce. FNP clinical rotations focus on primary care, not every specialty like medical residency. The clinical hours vary depending on the program, but typically require 500-1000 hours (mine was 750) or minimum 12 weeks, max 25 weeks in family practice. - Queen of Hearts, DNP

Here's what I gathered from this poster...
1) They have no idea how med school & residency works
2) Using their words, since NP's only get exposure to primary care they have zero exposure to anything else involved in their patients treatment
3) 25 Total weeks of clinical exposure before being turned loose on patients...*Golf clap*

Apparently NP education must be better than MD/DO or they're a lot smarter than us to learn everything in such a small amount of time....Must be true since they're a "doctor"

So you're telling me that a straight BSN to NP grad can be unleashed to the masses and start seeing patients after a minimum of 500 hours of clinical experience? How can ANYONE think this is a good idea?

 

[Azete]

Here's a gem from that thread:

General family practice physicians will complete 4 yrs of medical school then a 2 yr residency program. They do not usually touch a patient until their 4th year of med school.
A fellowship is not necessary for the family physician as fellowships will lead to specialization. That being said, some GPs do go through fellowships. Most of the GPs I've worked with began right after residency. I am not disputing the difference between med school and NP education here, for the record. I am simply pointing out that family practice physicians may have the bare minimum in education, same as FNP, before entering the paid workforce. FNP clinical rotations focus on primary care, not every specialty like medical residency. The clinical hours vary depending on the program, but typically require 500-1000 hours (mine was 750) or minimum 12 weeks, max 25 weeks in family practice. - Queen of Hearts, DNP

Here's what I gathered from this poster...
1) They have no idea how med school & residency works
2) Using their words, since NP's only get exposure to primary care they have zero exposure to anything else involved in their patients treatment
3) 25 Total weeks of clinical exposure before being turned loose on patients...*Golf clap*

Apparently NP education must be better than MD/DO or they're a lot smarter than us to learn everything in such a small amount of time....Must be true since they're a "doctor"

Astonishing ignorance, but I do somewhat agree on one point -- I think physicians would be better off if med school allowed earlier specialization. As it stands 4th year is a total waste, and pre-clinicals focus on a lot material that ends up being irrelevant to most specialties.

I think 1 year of basic medical science and 1 year of rotations followed by 2 years of specialized coursework/clinicals would be a better model, but this would also require more faculty/money and alas would never happen.

 

[Dr. Janitor]

So you're telling me that a straight BSN to NP grad can be unleashed to the masses and start seeing patients after a minimum of 500 hours of clinical experience? How can ANYONE think this is a good idea?

If it doesn't make sense, It makes money.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

Here's a gem from that thread:

General family practice physicians will complete 4 yrs of medical school then a 2 yr residency program. They do not usually touch a patient until their 4th year of med school.
A fellowship is not necessary for the family physician as fellowships will lead to specialization. That being said, some GPs do go through fellowships. Most of the GPs I've worked with began right after residency. I am not disputing the difference between med school and NP education here, for the record. I am simply pointing out that family practice physicians may have the bare minimum in education, same as FNP, before entering the paid workforce. FNP clinical rotations focus on primary care, not every specialty like medical residency. The clinical hours vary depending on the program, but typically require 500-1000 hours (mine was 750) or minimum 12 weeks, max 25 weeks in family practice. - Queen of Hearts, DNP

Here's what I gathered from this poster...
1) They have no idea how med school & residency works
2) Using their words, since NP's only get exposure to primary care they have zero exposure to anything else involved in their patients treatment
3) 25 Total weeks of clinical exposure before being turned loose on patients...*Golf clap*

Apparently NP education must be better than MD/DO or they're a lot smarter than us to learn everything in such a small amount of time....Must be true since they're a "doctor"

Lol did you get to the thread where the BSN equated med school anatomy to the required A&P courses in undergrad?

Serious question though, since I'm not a physician and will be starting the med school journey in the fall, how do you work with these people?

Like I get that we are supposed to respect their education and not berate them, but I feel like doctors got into so much trouble in the past for sh*tting on nurses that now they are in full apologetics mode. This has in turn appeared to make nurses into egotistical, ignorant equalists with an inferiority complex. Like to the point that they think they can say "my NP degree is equal to your MD/DO degree because I say so" and if you call them on it, then your are just an pompous ass of a doctor that berates nurses.

This logic is flawed and only works because doctors let it. I mean you can't do that in any other field. I can't walk into my PIs office and tell him my BS degree in biology is equal to his PhD and I'm more qualified to do his job because I was in classses more recently, all because I say so. He would laugh me out of his office or look at me like I'm crazy.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Dr. Janitor]

Lol did you get to the thread where the BSN equated med school anatomy to the required A&P courses in undergrad?

Serious question though, since I'm not a physician and will be starting the med school journey in the fall, how do you work with these people?

Like I get that we are supposed to respect their education and not berate them, but I feel like doctors got into so much trouble in the past for sh*tting on nurses that now they are in full apologetics mode. This has in turn appeared to make nurses into egotistical, ignorant equalists with an inferiority complex. Like to the point that they think they can say "my NP degree is equal to your MD/DO degree because I say so" and if you call them on it, then your are just an pompous ass of a doctor that berates nurses.

This logic is flawed and only works because doctors let it. I mean you can't do that in any other field. I can't walk into my PIs office and tell him my BS degree in biology is equal to his PhD and I'm more qualified to do his job because I was in classses more recently, all because I say so. He would laugh me out of his office or look at me like I'm crazy.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Yeah, every time a post started out like that I just skipped over it. Host-defense block has me in hypertensive crisis as it is without reading that nonsense.

Luckily, most of the NP/PA's I've worked with don't have this complex and chose their profession based off of career goals, family situation, or age. We have some NP's that teach at my med school, mainly clinical skills & standardized patient stuff and they're great people and very knowledgeable. However, I'm sure in the near future out on rotations I'll be graced with different experiences.

On a side note, first few weeks of med school I was critiqued during clinical skills practice for stating that I would report all findings to their physician instead of "clinician"...I guess they're prepping us for the day when the hierarchy finally changes.

 

[jl lin]

PCPs rarely get sued. It's the perfect place if you're looking for little to no legal liability.

Yes, you will see more yahoo nurse-types there. Again, I say it will all come down to politics and economic realities of trying to make a universal healthcare agenda work. Otherwise, seriously, most PAs and NPs just want to do their job and go home. They aren't the yahoos gunning for some kind of equivalency. If they wanted that, mostly, they would have bitten the bullet and gone to medical school and all the rigors thereafter. What some of these yahoos don't get is that if socialized medicine dominates as is the push and agenda, they will then be forced to take on more complex patients for whom they would not have been adequately prepared to handle or have physician back-up. When they do, the programs will just say, refer out to specialist physicians, and then the patient wait times will be even more obscene then mostly anyone here in the US has ever before seen. If you follow the money and politics, you can sadly see why a number of MSs are hedging their bets and opting to become specialists or stay out of primary care.

I will make a caveat re: some other type of midlevels--and I have seen this mostly w/ CRNAs (God they will beat me up now.). They tend to forget that even with their advanced education, they are still nurses, and they can tend to put off nurses, other staff, as well as physicians w/ their attitudes. Of course, thankfully, this is not all CRNAs, but they seem to have a worse reputation for it as compared with say NPs and PAs.

P.S. Only a total fool would compare undergrad A&P I&II w/ Gross Anatomy and such in MS. Everyone knows that pretty much.

 

[username456789]

On a side note, first few weeks of med school I was critiqued during clinical skills practice for stating that I would report all findings to their physician instead of "clinician"...I guess they're prepping us for the day when the hierarchy finally changes.

Never change.

 

[jl lin]

Yeah, every time a post started out like that I just skipped over it. Host-defense block has me in hypertensive crisis as it is without reading that nonsense.

Luckily, most of the NP/PA's I've worked with don't have this complex and chose their profession based off of career goals, family situation, or age. We have some NP's that teach at my med school, mainly clinical skills & standardized patient stuff and they're great people and very knowledgeable. However, I'm sure in the near future out on rotations I'll be graced with different experiences.

On a side note, first few weeks of med school I was critiqued during clinical skills practice for stating that I would report all findings to their physician instead of "clinician"...I guess they're prepping us for the day when the hierarchy finally changes.

Yea, it's either that term or "provider" that is the PC thing. Sigh

 

[Dr. Janitor]

Yea, it's either that term or "provider" that is the PC thing. Sigh

In a nutshell...

 

[W19]

Equal or better outcomes in favor of NP; that's all that matter

 

[mrjbb]

Nurses don't want to go work in the middle of Mississippi anymore than we do

Yea, I'm sure that's true. But it's not how NP and PA autonomy advocates are gift wrapping it to their respective states.

It's misleading. These states believe NP's are going to go into primary care within their rural areas, but I bet a majority of them don't. I'd like to see how much of the physician shortage in these state's rural areas has been addressed by giving all of these NP's further autonomy?

"Faced with shortages in rural and inner-city areas, states have been much more willing than doctors to allow NPs to practice without supervision. Both the National Governors Association[14] and the National Conference of State Legislatures[15] have issued reports recommending looser supervision requirements."

"Almost all of the 19 states that allow NP independent practice have large rural areas where physicians are scarce, but the addition of Connecticut to the list this year has implications for more urbanized states joining the trend."

Source: http://www.medscape.com/features/content/6006318

 

[ATPsynthase123]

Yeah, every time a post started out like that I just skipped over it. Host-defense block has me in hypertensive crisis as it is without reading that nonsense.

Luckily, most of the NP/PA's I've worked with don't have this complex and chose their profession based off of career goals, family situation, or age. We have some NP's that teach at my med school, mainly clinical skills & standardized patient stuff and they're great people and very knowledgeable. However, I'm sure in the near future out on rotations I'll be graced with different experiences.

On a side note, first few weeks of med school I was critiqued during clinical skills practice for stating that I would report all findings to their physician instead of "clinician"...I guess they're prepping us for the day when the hierarchy finally changes.

I mean what I have issues with is why is it seen as such a faux pa for a physician to claim he knows more than a mid-level or nurse? like if a physician tries to keep a mid-level in their lane, then he would be reported to HR faster than he could walk off the floor.

What I don't get is why is it that a physician has to be very conserved and meek when mentioning his education or expertise and is expected to just put up with it, but nurses/NPs are allowed to be petty and catty about any offense a physician does because "earned it and are equals".

What's so wrong with a doctor being the leader of healthcare and everyone else doing their part?

Why is the only solution to "put doctors in their place" and devalue our degree while elevating mid-levels and nurses to positions they haven't earned?

I just don't understand


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[wxman393]

This is what we're up against, arrogance fueled by anger

That EMT-B really sets her apart from everyone else.......


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[evilbooyaa]

Nearly all of the NPs/PAs I've met are not like this. However, if I ever met one that truly thought he/she was equal to me and disagreed with my opinion, I would put them in their place without second hesitation if I felt I was correct.

 

[cbrons]

I'm pleasantly surprised at how reasonable many of the replies are

Were there reasonable replies? Im afraid to open that thread.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

 

[cbrons]

Good quote:

Please cite your sources for these outcomes. Which medical school do you work with? I don't think they will be too please to see you posting on a public forum that an experienced NP can run circles around a PGY1. Let alone advocating for MD's to leave primary care. Further, what do you mean run circles? Sure NP's may have better time management skills and maybe they can handle the work flow better due to their bedside nursing experience. But sit down with those PGY1's and you will find that they are incredible intelligent, critically thinking minds. They may need some assistance at first with work flow/work demands but I've found that most PGY2 can run circles around an experienced NP. I have experience at one of the top teaching hospitals in the country so maybe my perspective varies.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

 

[cbrons]

Another good 1

"I have already read the research on it. I just wanted you to research it more thoroughly. I never said NP's are not intelligent people. I just don't see how NP's can fully practice independently with such limited education. Sure nurses take A&P and Biochem. At the 1000 college level. This is not the same as the rigorous upper level classes MD's take. This whole thread is about how MD's aren't even needed in primary care. Suggesting that NP's should function independently in primary care. I don't buy that. No the way these online schools churn out new grads like a factory. Honestly, I am appalled that nurses have such an ego that we would go online and proclaim that MD's aren't necessary in primary care. My pediatrician treated me from the time I was born until I moved away to college. He watched me grow up and treated me many times when I was very sick. To suggest that he is not needed in the profession that he dedicated his life to is incredibly disrespectful. 15 years of floor nursing experience, an online degree and some letters behind your name doesn't make you equivalent to a physician. Seriously, reign in that ego and take it down a notch because it doesn't look good for our profession."

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

 

[sliceofbread136]

Quote: Frankly, if we are talking about outcomes, NP education is indeed superior to MD education as the data indicates our outcomes are equal or superior to physician outcomes. This is the facts and really goes to show that NP education produces better providers than MD education.

HBRN, that's great that you like your pediatrician. However, 200 years ago, people loved their Blood letting. Please keep up with the times. Physicians are overtrained for Primary Care. They learn far too many diseases that affect only <1% of the population and that frankly they wouldn't even handle themselves. Medicine is no longer about how smart you are or who has the best memory. It's heavily algorithmic now where we use evidenced based medicine to produce the best results. That's probably why NP outcomes are so much better. We follow the best practices and dont experiment with dangerous drugs protocols unproven by medical evidence simply because we have some better understanding of the science behind it without any real clinical outcomes to back it up.

NP's are a cost effective solution to the primary care crisis. We are here to stay and we really no longer need physicians in the primary care role anymore.


So the lack of knowledge is actually the secret to these amazing nursing outcomes? I don't even...

 

[parttimebookworm]

So you're telling me that a straight BSN to NP grad can be unleashed to the masses and start seeing patients after a minimum of 500 hours of clinical experience? How can ANYONE think this is a good idea?

This is the part that always blows my mind. 500 clinical hours and then you can see patients. There are so many checks and balances in place with physicians (clerkships, intern year, residency) but they had 500 hours and suddenly they can see patients. In Canada, I know that to apply to an NP program you need at least 3600 hours of full-time experience and I don't even think that's enough but 500 hours as a student is nothing.

 

[Goro]

This is almost as psychotic as some of Donald Trump's rants.


"I believe we should completely eliminate doctors from the primary care fields. Leave primary care and emergency to NPs and nurses, and let doctors Better utilize their education in specialties. Eventually I see physicians being eliminated entirely from healthcare in favor of NPs and PAs."

 

[ATPsynthase123]

This is almost as psychotic as some of Donald Trump's rants.


"I believe we should completely eliminate doctors from the primary care fields. Leave primary care and emergency to NPs and nurses, and let doctors Better utilize their education in specialties. Eventually I see physicians being eliminated entirely from healthcare in favor of NPs and PAs."

How does a future physician combat this kind of ignorant egotism? I got about 3 pages in before I had to stop because they started equating the A&P course to med school anatomy...

When is it okay to say "no we are not equal and I'm more educated than you" without ending up reported to HR?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

Leave primary care and emergency to NPs and nurses, and let doctors Better utilize their education in specialties."

Can't wait for EVEN MORE bogus consults and trauma activations when I become a surgeon.

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

Physicians should start adding the initials for all their educational milestones behind their names. Maybe that will increase our hold over NP's.

OnePunchBiopsy, Pre-Med, BS, MSI, MSIII, MSIII, MSIV

 

[neusu]

The glut of administrative medicine is what is creating the need for midlevels in the first place.

I am afraid to say it, but we are soon to no longer be "professionals," but merely another technician in the machine that medicine has become.

 

[deleted731525]

"Oregon equal pay for equal work law has been signed into law in an independent practice state with NP's and PA's getting paid FULL amount from private insurance. This means that a new grad NP's will be paid the same amount as an attending family physician and psychiatrist and also have the same rights and scope of practice as a family physician and psychiatrist."

I wonder if this law makes them just as legally responsible/liable as physicians or if they chose to ignore that in addition to evading the years of training docs go through (med school + residency)?

If this question gets answered, it will probably be the only thing of value to come from this thread.

 

[jl lin]

The glut of administrative medicine is what is creating the need for midlevels in the first place.

I am afraid to say it, but we are soon to no longer be "professionals," but merely another technician in the machine that medicine has become.

And this is tragic.

 

[SansaStarkMD]

As far as I can tell, most nurses have autonomy in states with a low population or where most would not want to live. Can you require supervision if there are no physicians wanting to supervise? Just a thought. Equal billing for PAs is probably good for the physicians hiring them.

 

[Kaz]

As far as I can tell, most nurses have autonomy in states with a low population or where most would not want to live. Can you require supervision if there are no physicians wanting to supervise? Just a thought. Equal billing for PAs is probably good for the physicians hiring them.

I wonder how telemedicine would compare in this context ...

 

[Stagg737]

How does a future physician combat this kind of ignorant egotism? I got about 3 pages in before I had to stop because they started equating the A&P course to med school anatomy...

When is it okay to say "no we are not equal and I'm more educated than you" without ending up reported to HR?

As soon as they say they've got an equal education to you. Then you walk away. If HR doesn't understand that you've got more education than them then they're idiots and you just tell them how many years you've got. Last time I checked 11-16 years post-high school > 4-6.

 

[chipwhitley]

As soon as they say they've got an equal education to you. Then you walk away. If HR doesn't understand that you've got more education than them then they're idiots and you just tell them how many years you've got. Last time I checked 11-16 years post-high school > 4-6.

Many of them spread out their program over several years while they're working, so they claim they have the same number of years as us.

 

[mrjbb]

As far as I can tell, most nurses have autonomy in states with a low population or where most would not want to live. Can you require supervision if there are no physicians wanting to supervise? Just a thought. Equal billing for PAs is probably good for the physicians hiring them.

Exactly what my comments were about. Most states where they have the most autonomy are states that have large rural areas, which equates to a lesser amount of physicians wanting to practice there.