Nurses can practice without physician supervision in many states

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calvinhobbes

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So who's going to switch to a career in nursing?


http://m.washingtonpost.com/nationa...b241cc-8745-11e2-999e-5f8e0410cb9d_story.html


For years, nurses have been subordinate to doctors — both in the exam room and the political arena.

But aided by new allies ranging from AARP to social workers to health-policy experts, nursing groups are pressing ahead in a controversial bid to persuade state lawmakers to shift the balance of power.

In 11 states, they are pushing legislation that would permit nurses with a master's degree or higher to order and interpret diagnostic tests, prescribe medications and administer treatments without physician oversight. Similar legislation is likely to be introduced soon in three other states.

If the proposals, which face vehement opposition from some physicians' groups, succeed, the number of states allowing nurses to practice without any type of physician supervision would increase to 30 from 16, in addition to the District.

Maryland is considered almost in this category as well because the state merely requires a nurse practitioner who wants to operate an independent practice to identify a physician to consult if necessary. By contrast, Virginia is among the most restrictive states, with physician oversight required.

The broader authority being proposed around the country could spur tens of thousands of nurses to set up primary-care practices that would be virtually indistinguishable from those run by doctors. Currently, about 6,000 nurses operate their own independent primary-care practices.

"We have a ready-made, no-added-cost workforce in place that could be providing care at a much higher level if we modernize our state laws," said Taynin Kopanos, director of health policy and state issues for the American Association of Nurse Practitioners. "So the question for states is, are you going to fully deploy this resource or not?"

The nurses' last big legislative push, a state-by-state effort that began in the late 1980s, sputtered by the early 1990s. This time, however, the campaign is being coordinated nationally by the AANP and other nursing groups and is getting a critical boost from consumer advocates and state officials concerned about the 2010 health-care law's looming impact on the availability of doctors.

Beginning in January, about 27*million uninsured Americans are expected to get coverage under the law, contributing to a projected shortage of about 45,000 primary-care physicians by 2020, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges.

Claudio Gualtieri of AARP's Connecticut branch said it makes sense to empower qualified
nurses to step into the breach.

"These are actually good ideas that we should have put into practice a long time ago," he said. "But now, with the timetable for the [health-care law] rolling out, there's an extra impetus to do so."

The nurses have won the support of faith-based organizations, social workers, patients' groups and the National Governors Association. Perhaps the most valuable endorsement came from experts convened by the National Academy of Sciences' prestigious Institute of Medicine. The IOM panel, in a report issued in 2010 after the adoption of the health-care law, found no evidence that nurse-run practices were unsafe and concluded that "now is the time" to allow nurses to practice to the full extent of their education and training without limitations by doctors.

The health-care law itself encourages the creation of nurse-run practices by requiring insurers to pay nurses the same rates they pay doctors for the same services, starting next year. (Medicare, however, will still reimburse nurses at 85 percent of the doctors' rate.)

But even some state lawmakers who are sympathetic to the nursing groups' proposals are reluctant to give up on the Normal Rockwell-esque model of a venerable M.D. serving as the steward of a family's health.

"We're all aging, and we realize that the way medical care has been done for our parents really isn't working for us," said Kentucky state Sen. John Schickel (R).

Schickel, chairman of a legislative committee that is considering a bill to expand nurses' authority, said he often seeks treatment for minor complaints at a clinic at his local drugstore — one that is staffed entirely by nurses. Yet he is hesitant to allow nurses to take on the full range of services involved in a primary practice.

"My worry is that we will be lowering the standard of care," Schickel said. He said that he is being lobbied heavily by all sides. He wants to delay a vote on the bill for more study in the next legislative session.

Physician groups have fueled lawmakers' concerns by emphasizing the differences in education between doctors and "advanced practice nurses," which include nurse practitioners specializing in primary care.

Such nurses get a bachelor's degree in nursing, then spend 21/2 to three years studying for a master's degree. One more year of study is needed to get a Ph.D, which will be required of all newly minted nurse practitioners beginning in 2015. No residency or further training is required.

Physicians must get a bachelor's degree that typically includes various science courses, then spend four years in medical school, followed by at least another three years in a residency program.

That extra training means family doctors are equipped to recognize unusual circumstances that nurse practitioners might miss, said Reid Blackwelder, president-elect of the American Academy of Family Physicians.

Whether confronted with a patient whose repeated respiratory infections are actually a symptom of HIV-infection or someone with multiple conditions such as hypertension, lung disease and diabetes who comes in with a cough that could indicate a vast range of complications, "the family physician simply has the ideal training to take a patient with vague symptoms, look for the big picture and know what's the best thing to do," he said.

Physicians' groups also complain that nurse-only practices will further splinter a health-care system that many experts say needs to be more coordinated.

"Team care, in which each member is doing what they have been trained to do best, is really what's going to produce greater efficiency and greater quality of care," said Ardis Dee Hoven, presi*dent-elect of the American Medical Association.

Nurse practitioners say that they are eager to work in teams with physicians but that this is impractical where doctors are in short supply, such as rural and low-income communities. And they contend their training, which emphasizes a holistic approach, makes them just as capable as doctors in catching problems.

"We've diagnosed breast cancer here, ovarian cancer, prostate cancer," said Erin Bagshaw, who runs Northwest Nurse Practitioner Associates in the District. "We've seen leukemia, severe heart disease, diabetes. We've handled emergencies where patients were having a pulmonary embolism and had to go straight to the ER. . . . There's this fallacy that nurse practitioners can only deal with simple, uncomplicated problems, and it's just not the case."

In Maryland, nurse practitioner Karen Millett has carved out a niche serving working-poor Latino immigrants from nearby low-income enclaves through a private practice she runs out of of her Chevy Chase home.

On a recent morning, Millett's tiny waiting room was filled with the sort of patients who flock to primary-care practices: A Glenmont woman struggling with obesity there to check the progress of her weight-loss program; an Adelphi woman in for her annual Pap smear and physical; an Elk Ridge woman seeking treatment for an ovarian cyst and uterine fibroids.

To accommodate patients who can't afford to take time off from their jobs, Millett offers extended Saturday hours. Unlike many private physicians, she accepts new Medicaid patients. And for the many who are uninsured, she charges a flat fee of $49 per visit, well below what most primary-care doctors charge.

Millett, 49, whose parents were Peruvian and who has a soft-spoken, motherly manner with her patients, said she considers treating low-income people a personal mission.

But to cover her expenses, she has had to make difficult choices. She supplements her income with work at a hospital every other week, and she has not hired any support staff.

"I do everything, she said, "the booking, the payments — I even clean the bathroom."

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Nothing surprising. Medicare loves this as they have to pay a lot less for medical care. Doctors are being ran out of their own profession so that people without proper training can take over for dimes and pennies.

Mark my words that they will creep into other specialties very soon. They will want to cash in on the big cow that is dermatology, take over psychiatry and then want to do "minor surgical procedures."
 
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If physicians would ever quit infighting and take a day a month off golfing to go have proper lobby in DC we would be able to tackle these encroachments and the residency funding issues in no time.
 
Before getting accepted, I was all RN's practicing and improving our healthcare (it would allow me other ways to practice medicine and be in the profession that I am passionate about). However, now that I am accepted, I am a little hesitant, but I think overall it could be beneficial for the patients!
 
Honestly from the nurses I have encountered in my life, I would trust many of them over a good chunk of my med school class in treating me, especially in simple bread and butter medicine.

It's time to get over this ego we have as physicians or med students.
 
Another thread about nurses taking over ? Isn't this as worn out as DO vs. MD

It's like raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaain on your wedding day, it's a free riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide when you've already paid..
 
From what I have seen nurses are very good at cookie cutter medicine... When this happens I do this.. Admittedly this is a large portion of medicine. However, if you throw in any complication or even stray off the beaten path they quickly become bug-eyed and confused.

Survivor DO
 
The reason this is disturbing isn't just for us. It hurts society in the long-term. Like many have mentioned, when you've got a nurse that you can call a doctor (DNP), and that can prescribe any meds and diagnose, what's the motivation for the hospital systems to pay more for a physician? What's even the point of becoming a physician?

On top of that, nursing was a good way to get into healthcare for people that either couldn't afford to go to medicine or simply couldn't sacrifice that much of their lives for it. What's going to happen when to be any "good nurse" you need to have a 3-yr MSN or a 4-yr DNP? You effectively remove a vital part of healthcare system.

If anything, those nurses that want to go through a 4yr doctorate, should have a way to enter medical school more easily.

This initiative closes doors for people, it doesn't open them. This is just a way to fill a short term gap, when the real ways to do that are by making more residencies, and making becoming a physician more attainable.

Honestly from the nurses I have encountered in my life, I would trust many of them over a good chunk of my med school class in treating me, especially in simple bread and butter medicine.

It's time to get over this ego we have as physicians or med students.

Yeah, right now. Those med students aren't doctors. They might have gotten their white coats, but they aren't trained yet. When they finish residency will you have the same opinion?

I've known a fair amount of incompetent nurses that I wouldn't trust with putting in an IV, let alone actually diagnosing me and prescribing me medication (beyond maybe antibiotics).

In all fairness, I know a lot of good nurses, but we're talking people who've been in the field for decades.
 
Before getting accepted, I was all RN's practicing and improving our healthcare (it would allow me other ways to practice medicine and be in the profession that I am passionate about). However, now that I am accepted, I am a little hesitant, but I think overall it could be beneficial for the patients!

For cases of the sniffles, I can see how it would be a cost benefit for the patient. Anything complex and I don't understand your reasoning.

If you want to be a doctor don't go to nursing school.
 
I think nurses are conspiring on a national level to concentrate all the power within their ranks. It's only a matter of time...
 
Honestly from the nurses I have encountered in my life, I would trust many of them over a good chunk of my med school class in treating me, especially in simple bread and butter medicine.

It's time to get over this ego we have as physicians or med students.
So what you're saying is that on average the education of a nurse is superior to that of MD/DO?
 
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It was only a matter of time. Are we not in the middle of a Nursing shortage as well?
 
It was only a matter of time. Are we not in the middle of a Nursing shortage as well?
Don't worry. The CNA folks will take over nursing. I'm sure the nurses will agree it's just as safe and cost effective for patients.
 
So what you're saying is that on average the education of a nurse is superior to that of MD/DO?

I highly doubt that's what he meant, or at least I hope not. Notice how he said fellow med students as opposed to actually trained physicians. I don't get the point of comparing students to professionals though.
 
I highly doubt that's what he meant, or at least I hope not. Notice how he said fellow med students as opposed to actually trained physicians. I don't get the point of comparing students to professionals though.
I know that's not what he meant, but if you follow the logic, that's where it goes. I'm trying to point out how senseless it is. It's saying that nurses have received a better education or recruit better people that can do better with less education.
 
Don't worry. The CNA folks will take over nursing. I'm sure the nurses will agree it's just as safe and cost effective for patients.

You'd be surprised at how much a CNA can't do.

Never really was sure what the purpose of a DNP/NP degree is since PA's can do everything an NP/DNP can do but now they believe they deserve autonomy just for 2 extra years.

While we're stuck here bickering about DO, MD and Island MDs, I think its these DNP/NPs encroaching on FM doc's rights thats the real issue. As said before, they won't stop at just autonomy and it will just snowball, all in the name of saving a few bucks.
 
You'd be surprised at how much a CNA can't do.

Never really was sure what the purpose of a DNP/NP degree is since PA's can do everything an NP/DNP can do but now they believe they deserve autonomy just for 2 extra years.

While we're stuck here bickering about DO, MD and Island MDs, I think its these DNP/NPs encroaching on FM doc's rights thats the real issue. As said before, they won't stop at just autonomy and it will just snowball, all in the name of saving a few bucks.

I still don't get why someone would choose a 4 yr DNP over med school if they want to diagnose and prescribe meds. If they want to be a physician, just become a physician. DO schools would especially appreciate their experience if they were working as a nurse before. What's the point in blurring the lines?
 
I still don't get why someone would choose a 4 yr DNP over med school if they want to diagnose and prescribe meds. If they want to be a physician, just become a physician. DO schools would especially appreciate their experience if they were working as a nurse before. What's the point in blurring the lines?

No residency.
 
I still don't get why someone would choose a 4 yr DNP over med school if they want to diagnose and prescribe meds. If they want to be a physician, just become a physician. DO schools would especially appreciate their experience if they were working as a nurse before. What's the point in blurring the lines?

Exactly. :)
 
Is it easier to get into?

DNP would be way easy to get into. You won't really learn much either...just writing papers. People who want to know how to take care of patients should go DO/MD. That is why I am applying to med school. And....I don't know too many nurses who I think could get through organic or the MCAT hurdle to be completely honest. Some nurses do have to take up to organic for nurse anesthesia programs, but this is the exception. And there are, of course, nurses who I have known to go on to med school but this is also rare.

I was in nurse-midwifery school for a brief while. There were students in there that couldn't contruct a sentence. We weren't even learning a whole lot to be responsible for catching babies in two years. No amount of nursing theory is going to help me in my practice, and that is what we were devoting a lot of our time to doing -fluff.

NP's are cheap...doctors should be afraid. Patients should be afraid.
 
DNP would be way easy to get into. You won't really learn much either...just writing papers. People who want to know how to take care of patients should go DO/MD. That is why I am applying to med school. And....I don't know too many nurses who I think could get through organic or the MCAT hurdle to be completely honest. Some nurses do have to take up to organic for nurse anesthesia programs, but this is the exception. And there are, of course, nurses who I have known to go on to med school but this is also rare.

I was in nurse-midwifery school for a brief while. There were students in there that couldn't contruct a sentence. We weren't even learning a whole lot to be responsible for catching babies in two years. No amount of nursing theory is going to help me in my practice, and that is what we were devoting a lot of our time to doing -fluff.

NP's are cheap...doctors should be afraid. Patients should be afraid.

What can be done?
 
I still don't get why someone would choose a 4 yr DNP over med school if they want to diagnose and prescribe meds. If they want to be a physician, just become a physician. DO schools would especially appreciate their experience if they were working as a nurse before. What's the point in blurring the lines?
Because the DNP is just a new made up degree for nurses to feel as if they are real doctors. Nurses were going the NP route because they were too lazy to do the prerequisites, didn't have the grades and didn't want to spend the time being a real doctor. They got a fancy "NP" from online classes. Now they want the title, so they can again go to online school that takes their MSN and lets them get a doctoral degree in just a few more months of school.
 
Because the DNP is just a new made up degree for nurses to feel as if they are real doctors. Nurses were going the NP route because they were too lazy to do the prerequisites, didn't have the grades and didn't want to spend the time being a real doctor. They got a fancy "NP" from online classes. Now they want the title, so they can again go to online school that takes their MSN and lets them get a doctoral degree in just a few more months of school.

Though I'm weary in letting NPs practice independently, there's a few problems with your post.

First of all, I don't think the majority of nurses are getting their MSNs or DNPs online. Second of all, what is the median age of people who go the NP route? If it's not early 20s, then how feasible is it for a garden variety nurse to say "I want to advance my career so I'm going to drop everything, and start a 10 year + long journey to do that (prereqs + med school + residency)" ?

I think we have to distinguish the lobbies that are pushing for unwarranted power from those individual NPs that are happy practicing in a scope of practice that suits their level of training without causing harm.

We also need an actual, unbiased (as possible) study done on patient outcomes from APN care controlling for those NPs in the most rudimentary of capacities (so no side can use the "most basic role" handicap in their perpetuation of a specific agenda). Only then can we determine if NPs are truly providing for a number of negative patient outcomes that would cause concern.

I generally see two arguments in regards to NPs - "they're pushing doctors out of their role and deserved salary" and "they're bad for patients." Yet other than anecdotal experiences on SDN and claims from competing lobbies that are obviously going to be biased, I haven't really seen much in the way of either. And I'm saying this not out of maliciousness for either side, but general curiosity. So don't start flaming me and claiming that I'm an NP-lover or turncoat or other types of idiotic vitriol.
 
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Though I'm weary in letting NPs practice independently, there's a few problems with your post.

First of all, I don't think the majority of nurses are getting their MSNs or DNPs online. Second of all, what is the median age of people who go the NP route? If it's not early 20s, then how feasible is it for a garden variety nurse to say "I want to advance my career so I'm going to drop everything, and start a 10 year + long journey to do that (prereqs + med school + residency)"?

I think we have to distinguish the lobbies that are pushing for unwarranted power from those individual NPs that are happy practicing in a scope of practice that suits their level of training without causing harm.

We also need an actual, unbiased (as possible) study done on patient outcomes from APN care controlling for those NPs in the most rudimentary of capacities (so no side can use the "most basic role" handicap in their perpetuation of a specific agenda). Only then can we determine if NPs are truly providing for a substantial number of negative patient outcomes.

I generally see two arguments in regards to NPs - "they're pushing doctors out of their role and deserved salary" and "they're bad for patients." Yet other than anecdotal experiences on SDN and claims from competing lobbies that are obviously going to be biased, I haven't really seen much in the way of either. And I'm saying this not out of maliciousness for either side, but general curiosity. So don't start flaming me and claiming that I'm an NP-lover or turncoat or other types of idiotic vitriol.

In terms of median ages for these degrees. A nurse is going to be in their early 20s, just like a college graduate. An MSN is usually a 3 yr degree, and a DNP is a 4 yr degree, so its just as long as medical school. If a nurse or anyone wants to diagnose and prescribe medicine, why wouldn't they then go to med school? Why would they go through an equally long course for less money? On here we like to say that med school is 10 years long, but in residency we are getting paid, more than nurses, and probably at least as much as nurse practitioners, so its not like they'd be losing salary/time-wise. Then after residency, physicians will be making more. LECOM even has a 3yr FP fast track, which would be ideal for many nurses.

I just don't get why we are blurring the lines. Short of being cheaper for hospitals, I really don't think it benefits either careers, physicians or nurses. Nurses are already in demand.
 
In terms of median ages for these degrees. A nurse is going to be in their early 20s, just like a college graduate. An MSN is usually a 3 yr degree, and a DNP is a 4 yr degree, so its just as long as medical school. If a nurse or anyone wants to diagnose and prescribe medicine, why wouldn't they then go to med school? Why would they go through an equally long course for less money? On here we like to say that med school is 10 years long, but in residency we are getting paid, more than nurses, and probably at least as much as nurse practitioners, so its not like they'd be losing salary/time-wise. Then after residency, physicians will be making more. LECOM even has a 3yr FP fast track, which would be ideal for many nurses.

I just don't get why we are blurring the lines. Short of being cheaper for hospitals, I really don't think it benefits either careers, physicians or nurses. Nurses are already in demand.


But you're implying that nurse practitioners are getting their degrees right after they finish nursing school. Many nurses who go the practitioner route are on the floor practicing as a nurse for years and years before they decide to go back to school to get the MSN or DNP. Not to mention that nursing is very popular as a second career, so many nurses aren't coming out of nursing school at 22. Does that give them the experience or knowledge base to be practitioners? Not necessarily. But because many are entering NP school later than their mid-20s, it doesn't really make med school viable for them.

Let alone the fact that Associate Degree nurses can't just jump into the NP fray. They need to receive their BSN too.

And the nursing shortage thing really doesn't exist. It might have for the first 6 months to a year, but not anymore. Reason being is that many nurses who were looking to retire before the recession decided not to. There was a CNN article that stated that the average new graduate nurse waits up to 18 months to get hired.

I really don't think we can paint the NP issue with a broad stroke. I personally think that NP is a good career for those who want it. Do I think that NPs should practice in utterly independent fashion given their lack of basic science understandin? No. But the notion that NPs are bad for patients and doctors hasn't really been backed up with any sort of viable data.
 
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Though I'm weary in letting NPs practice independently, there's a few problems with your post.

First of all, I don't think the majority of nurses are getting their MSNs or DNPs online. Second of all, what is the median age of people who go the NP route? If it's not early 20s, then how feasible is it for a garden variety nurse to say "I want to advance my career so I'm going to drop everything, and start a 10 year + long journey to do that (prereqs + med school + residency)" ?

Well considering schools like Duke and Johns Hopkins have their DNP programs online (at least partially at Johns Hopkins) I wouldn't be too sure about that.
 
Well considering schools like Duke and Johns Hopkins have their DNP programs online (at least partially at Johns Hopkins) I wouldn't be too sure about that.

If that's true, that still doesn't prove that the majority of people getting their DNPs or MSNs are doing it online.
 
But you're implying that nurse practitioners are getting their degrees right after they finish nursing school. Many nurses who go the practitioner route are on the floor practicing as a nurse for years and years before they decide to go back to school to get the MSN or DNP. Not to mention that nursing is very popular as a second career, so many nurses aren't coming out of nursing school at 22. Does that give them the experience or knowledge base to be practitioners? Not necessarily. But because many are going into NP school in their 30s and 40s, it doesn't make med school a very viable route for them...

Why is going to medical school in your 30s or 40s any less viable than doing a 4yr DNP at that age? DO schools are especially more welcoming of older individuals, and I think the oldest matriculant was in his/her 60s. I'm practically 30, and I saw many people at my DO interviews that were in their 30s and 40s.

The previous poster mentioned that nurses wouldn't do a DO or MD because they are working in their early 20s. I was explaining that the process for a graduate degree in nursing is much longer.

I don't have a problem with an NP. But the whole turning it into a 4yr DNP doesn't make sense to me. It also doesn't make sense to me that someone who wants to practice medicine would rather do a DNP than an MD/DO.
 
Why is going to medical school in your 30s or 40s any less viable than doing a 4yr DNP at that age? DO schools are especially more welcoming of older individuals, and I think the oldest matriculant was in his/her 60s. I'm practically 30, and I saw many people at my DO interviews that were in their 30s and 40s.

The previous poster mentioned that nurses wouldn't do a DO or MD because they are working in their early 20s. I was explaining that the process for a graduate degree in nursing is much longer.

I don't have a problem with an NP. But the whole turning it into a 4yr DNP doesn't make sense to me. It also doesn't make sense to me that someone who wants to practice medicine would rather do a DNP than an MD/DO.

I do agree that the DNP thing is simply a push for power.

But the viability about going to med school in your 30s and 40s is really relative. Sure, you've seen some people who can do it. But assuming most perspective NPs in their 30s or 40s have a spouse and children, going 110% head into the books for 2 years of postbacc and then 4 years of med school, AND then working 80-110 hours a week in residency for 3-7 years + hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and lost income may simply not be worth it.

As you said, the DNP is not a very hard degree to earn despite its 4 year length. Heck, many nurses work part time while earning said degree. And that is what makes it financially viable for them.

But like I said, from a practicality standpoint, it doesn't need to be a doctorate. That's really the main issue - the push for power. But I think the buck stops there unless someone can come up with statistics that solidify the claims people have been making in regards to negative patient outcomes and physicians losing salary and jobs.
 
I know that's not what he meant, but if you follow the logic, that's where it goes. I'm trying to point out how senseless it is. It's saying that nurses have received a better education or recruit better people that can do better with less education.

You are so ridiculous:laugh:
 
First of all, I don't think the majority of nurses are getting their MSNs or DNPs online. Second of all, what is the median age of people who go the NP route? If it's not early 20s, then how feasible is it for a garden variety nurse to say "I want to advance my career so I'm going to drop everything, and start a 10 year + long journey to do that (prereqs + med school + residency)" ?

Even if the majority are not, the online component is in a lot of schools and allows too many unqualified people to get an NP/DNP. Sure, everyone wants to advance their careers, but you shouldn't get to go into another career (physician) by short cutting your way with a fake degree and then paying off politicians to give you the rights you don't deserve. If they want to be physicians, they should put the work involved in being one. There's no reason to give them a break just because it doesn't seem feasible.

You are so ridiculous:laugh:
I'm glad you feel that way because that's the logical consequence of your ridiculousness.
 
Even if the majority are not, the online component is in a lot of schools and allows too many unqualified people to get an NP/DNP. Sure, everyone wants to advance their careers, but you shouldn't get to go into another career (physician) by short cutting your way with a fake degree and then paying off politicians to give you the rights you don't deserve. If they want to be physicians, they should put the work involved in being one. There's no reason to give them a break just because it doesn't seem feasible.

A. You're equating nurse practitioners' wishes with the desires of their lobby.

B. I offer this: if it's not causing a significant number of bad patient outcomes, and there isn't a measurable correlation between NPs doing what they do (a mid-level role) as opposed to doing what their lobby desires and most of us, including myself agree shouldn't occur (total independence at a level where their lack of knowledge would harm patients), and a drop in salary for physicians or a loss of jobs for physicians, then what is the problem with them doing the tasks within the job that you claim belong to another career?
 
Let the nurses serve the poor!

Anyone who can pay cash or has decent private insurance can see a physician.
Sounds like a good deal to me.
 
Let the nurses serve the poor!

Anyone who can pay cash or has decent private insurance can see a physician.
Sounds like a good deal to me.

What the hell...
 
Anyone who doesn't see the long term argument being more power for nursing is deluding themselves. I posted this same article in the allopathic student forums and received one, that's right one, response. There just isn't an interest from many future and practicing physicians, many of which specialize and see the effects of this being minimal.

I personally wonder if the long term result will be DNPs slowly, over a period of twenty or more years, fighting for full independent practice rights alongside allopathic and osteopathic physicians. Anyone who says it can't be done need only look at the history of how DOs fought for equal practice rights. The difference is that osteopathic medical schools acknowledged that the basic four year curriculum, complete with two years of preclinical science education and two years of hands-on rotations, was the foundation of medicine. Nurses are going to go a step further and try and argue that the "nursing model" is not only equal, but superior. Any of you who doubt this need only to read some of the comments from nurses on the WaPo article.

The problem with this is that nursing schools will most likely try to upend the current model. State Boards of Nursing will fight for an alternative pathway to being a "physician," most likely by completing direct entry BSN to DNP programs. They're already working on certification exams, that they of course are developing, to show "comparable" knowledge base to the USMLE/COMLEX Step 3. Some "residencies" are popping up. All it takes is a few state legislatures to say, "Yep, good enough. You're a "physician" and may practice with all the rights and privileges of a physician." Goodbye to the MCAT and undergraduate gauntlet of physical and biological sciences being the standard of entry into medical education.

http://www.nbme.org/pdf/nbme-development-of-dnp-cert-exam.pdf
 
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Excellent point. Each state has diff. education regulations and scope of practice for nurses but in time that may change (unlike physicians that have equal, strict standards in all 50 states). Plus, it's easier for a foreign nurse to become practicing nurse in the U.S. then a foreign physician.

Solutions? Automatic loan forgiveness for primary care docs; increase pay for primary care docs so there IS a difference between primary care docs and primary care nurses; and stop the competition and make it easier for docs to enter competitive ROAD or other hard-to-get-into specialities that nurses couldn't enter with their training.

U.S. docs MUST lobby harder to preserve their profession or else the whole system will become hogwash and collapse on itself.

Anyone who doesn't see the long term argument being more power for nursing is deluding themselves. I posted this same article in the allopathic student forums and received one, that's right one, response. There just isn't an interest from many future and practicing physicians, many of which specialize and see the effects of this being minimal.

I personally wonder if the long term result will be DNPs slowly, over a period of twenty or more years, fighting for full independent practice rights alongside allopathic and osteopathic physicians. Anyone who says it can't be done need only look at the history of how DOs fought for equal practice rights. The difference is that osteopathic medical schools acknowledged that the basic four year curriculum, complete with two years of preclinical science education and two years of hands-on rotations, was the foundation of medicine. Nurses are going to go a step further and try and argue that the "nursing model" is not only equal, but superior. Any of you who doubt this need only to read some of the comments from nurses on the WaPo article.

The problem with this is that nursing schools will most likely try to upend the current model. State Boards of Nursing will fight for an alternative pathway to being a "physician," most likely by completing direct entry BSN to DNP programs. They're already working on certification exams, that they of course are developing, to show "comparable" knowledge base to the USMLE/COMLEX Step 3. Some "residencies" are popping up. All it takes is a few state legislatures to say, "Yep, good enough. You're a "physician" and may practice with all the rights and privileges of a physician." Goodbye to the MCAT and undergraduate gauntlet of physical and biological sciences being the standard of entry into medical education.

http://www.nbme.org/pdf/nbme-development-of-dnp-cert-exam.pdf
 
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Anyone who doesn't see the long term argument being more power for nursing is deluding themselves. I posted this same article in the allopathic student forums and received one, that's right one, response. There just isn't an interest from many future and practicing physicians, many of which specialize and see the effects of this being minimal.

It's because there's already an 18 page running thread about DNPs in the Allo forum...we don't need a new one. Look at that thread and you'll see anything but a lack of interest.

Plus you're a premed.
 
U.S. docs MUST lobby harder to preserve their profession or else the whole system will become hogwash and collapse on itself.

Bingo bango! (in my terrible Kelso impression)

It's because there's already an 18 page running thread about DNPs in the Allo forum...we don't need a new one. Look at that thread and you'll see anything but a lack of interest.

Plus you're a premed.

WHAT! Two calvin and hobbes in one thread! My world has just come crashing down!
 
Sadly I dont think the AMA is the way to do it. Someone needs to found a new organization that actually represents the majority of physicians.
 
A. You're equating nurse practitioners' wishes with the desires of their lobby.

B. I offer this: if it's not causing a significant number of bad patient outcomes, and there isn't a measurable correlation between NPs doing what they do (a mid-level role) as opposed to doing what their lobby desires and most of us, including myself agree shouldn't occur (total independence at a level where their lack of knowledge would harm patients), and a drop in salary for physicians or a loss of jobs for physicians, then what is the problem with them doing the tasks within the job that you claim belong to another career?
We shouldn't measure the capacity of NPs to treat by bad patient outcomes. Tragedies are minimal. We should measure it by the standard of care that they give. I personally go to a nurse practitioner because it's what my county healthcare has assigned to me. The lady is super nice, has years of experience, is a graduate from UCSF's NP program, but she's still marginally qualified. I have lumbar back pain. Did she ever palpitate or consider what the origin of the problem was? No. She just gave me Tylenol and sent me about my way. I had a discoloration in my skin. She gave me some popular medication that's a "treat all" for these conditions. It didn't work for me. Guess what happened? She didn't know of any other medication that could help and had to go ask a physician for recommendations. What do you think one working independently in rural Iowa would do? Probably google "common medications for..." and give that. See, I didn't have a "bad outcome." I'm not in a wheel chair or dead, but did I receive substandard care? Yes. This is what America is in store for.

If you really think an NP can give equal care, there are two options: 1. medical school is a waste of time with bloated courses that are useless in practice, or 2. nursing model provides a better education for medicine.
 
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It was only a matter of time. Are we not in the middle of a Nursing shortage as well?
No actually the nation now has a nursing surplus.
Don't worry. The CNA folks will take over nursing. I'm sure the nurses will agree it's just as safe and cost effective for patients.
I am a CNA. I have been for two years. IMHO every doctor should start out as a CNA. It would put paranoid delusions like this out of their minds.
I know that's not what he meant, but if you follow the logic, that's where it goes. I'm trying to point out how senseless it is. It's saying that nurses have received a better education or recruit better people that can do better with less education.
No, this is your own fabrication. Any rational person wouldn't make such gross jumps in thier thinking.
DNP would be way easy to get into. You won't really learn much either...just writing papers. People who want to know how to take care of patients should go DO/MD. That is why I am applying to med school. And....I don't know too many nurses who I think could get through organic or the MCAT hurdle to be completely honest. Some nurses do have to take up to organic for nurse anesthesia programs, but this is the exception. And there are, of course, nurses who I have known to go on to med school but this is also rare.
I was in nurse-midwifery school for a brief while. There were students in there that couldn't contruct a sentence. We weren't even learning a whole lot to be responsible for catching babies in two years. No amount of nursing theory is going to help me in my practice, and that is what we were devoting a lot of our time to doing -fluff.

NP's are cheap...doctors should be afraid. Patients should be afraid.

This is where it just gets sad. Have any of you ever looked at the requirements to get into nursing school? (Midwifery school is very different than nursing school btw)
I am not talking about the courses required, obviously they are lower division than med prereqs, but the GPA requirements are often higher than medical schools. Thats just for your basic RN. To get into a BSN, MSN, or DNP program is VERY competitive. Remember there are crap premeds out there too who still get into med school. Just because you talked to one nursing student who hadnt figured things out yet doesnt mean they are all like that anymore than one subpar premed represents all of us.

Even if the majority are not, the online component is in a lot of schools and allows too many unqualified people to get an NP/DNP. Sure, everyone wants to advance their careers, but you shouldn't get to go into another career (physician) by short cutting your way with a fake degree and then paying off politicians to give you the rights you don't deserve. If they want to be physicians, they should put the work involved in being one. There's no reason to give them a break just because it doesn't seem feasible.
Why does everyone assume that online courses are easy? When you are talking about graduate, professional classes it is very different than your little undergraduate courses. I find it funny that no one seems to care that people skip out on lecture during med school all the time. Thats pretty much the same as taking an online class (little instructure involvement and directed study), heck no one seems to mind the self-paced option offered at a lot of medical schools these days. These are FTF courses in name only! It is exactly the same concept as taking an online class.
Anyone who doesn't see the long term argument being more power for nursing is deluding themselves. I posted this same article in the allopathic student forums and received one, that's right one, response. There just isn't an interest from many future and practicing physicians, many of which specialize and see the effects of this being minimal.

I personally wonder if the long term result will be DNPs slowly, over a period of twenty or more years, fighting for full independent practice rights alongside allopathic and osteopathic physicians. Anyone who says it can't be done need only look at the history of how DOs fought for equal practice rights. The difference is that osteopathic medical schools acknowledged that the basic four year curriculum, complete with two years of preclinical science education and two years of hands-on rotations, was the foundation of medicine. Nurses are going to go a step further and try and argue that the "nursing model" is not only equal, but superior. Any of you who doubt this need only to read some of the comments from nurses on the WaPo article.

The problem with this is that nursing schools will most likely try to upend the current model. State Boards of Nursing will fight for an alternative pathway to being a "physician," most likely by completing direct entry BSN to DNP programs. They're already working on certification exams, that they of course are developing, to show "comparable" knowledge base to the USMLE/COMLEX Step 3. Some "residencies" are popping up. All it takes is a few state legislatures to say, "Yep, good enough. You're a "physician" and may practice with all the rights and privileges of a physician." Goodbye to the MCAT and undergraduate gauntlet of physical and biological sciences being the standard of entry into medical education.

http://www.nbme.org/pdf/nbme-development-of-dnp-cert-exam.pdf

Great way to sum up all the problems with this thread.

I can assure you that no nurse is trying to take over your future practice as a physician. If you learned to actually utilize your nursing staff properly you would understand this. Nurses enjoy what they do, they want to help people and they way they do this is fundementally different from what physicians do.

I have no fear whatsoever for my future job as a physician. If DNPs and other primary care alternatives want to help reduce the primary care shortage in our country I am all for it. A nurse will never fully replace a physician, this can only help everyone.

If you feel that your practicing rights as a physician are being threatened by the practicing rights being lobbied for by DNPs or others than you were expecting to be a lazy doctor. There are still tons of things that only a physician will be able to do. If all you wanted to do was sit in your office and hand out antibiotics or prescribe basic medicine then you should get out of the premed world and go to DNP school. As a physician you are going to have to do WAY more than just that. I am not going to get into the details of their petition, I read the article, I have read these petitions before I already know what they say and there is nothing for the pemedical world to worry about. Stop whining, and stop looking down on your professional collegues.
 
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No, this is your own fabrication. Any rational person wouldn't make such gross jumps in thier thinking.

Why does everyone assume that online courses are easy? When you are talking about graduate, professional classes it is very different than your little undergraduate courses. I find it funny that no one seems to care that people skip out on lecture during med school all the time. Thats pretty much the same as taking an online class (little instructure involvement and directed study), heck no one seems to mind the self-paced option offered at a lot of medical schools these days. These are FTF courses in name only! It is exactly the same concept as taking an online class.
Okay, lets say it is my own fabrication, but lets follow the logic then. The premise of the argument is that NP give a standard of care superior to those of some doctors the OP knows. If this is the case, why is it? If this were true, I think it's implying that nurses have received a better education in basic medicine. What is your argument if you believe nurses give superior care to some doctors on basic medicine? Notice the argument is about medical knowledge, not how personable they are.

The problem with online courses is that they don't offer a standard like that of in-person classes. Many of them will be rigorous, but many of them will not be rigorous. Sometimes tests are completely online and someone with good referencing skills can use their book and google to answer questions. Hell, you can even do group tests if you want to. These courses are also designed for working professionals, so they already assume that you don't have the time of a regular student and accommodate for it.
 
No actually the nation now has a nursing surplus.

I am a CNA. I have been for two years. IMHO every doctor should start out as a CNA. It would put paranoid delusions like this out of their minds.

No, this is your own fabrication. Any rational person wouldn't make such gross jumps in thier thinking.


This is where it just gets sad. Have any of you ever looked at the requirements to get into nursing school? (Midwifery school is very different than nursing school btw)
I am not talking about the courses required, obviously they are lower division than med prereqs, but the GPA requirements are often higher than medical schools. Thats just for your basic RN. To get into a BSN, MSN, or DNP program is VERY competitive. Remember there are crap premeds out there too who still get into med school. Just because you talked to one nursing student who hadnt figured things out yet doesnt mean they are all like that anymore than one subpar premed represents all of us.


Why does everyone assume that online courses are easy? When you are talking about graduate, professional classes it is very different than your little undergraduate courses. I find it funny that no one seems to care that people skip out on lecture during med school all the time. Thats pretty much the same as taking an online class (little instructure involvement and directed study), heck no one seems to mind the self-paced option offered at a lot of medical schools these days. These are FTF courses in name only! It is exactly the same concept as taking an online class.


Great way to sum up all the problems with this post.

I can assure you that no nurse is trying to take over your future practice as a physician. If you learned to actually utilize your nursing staff properly you would understand this. Nurses enjoy what they do, they want to help people and they way they do this is fundementally different from what physicians do.

I have no fear whatsoever for my future job as a physician. If DNPs and other primary care alternatives want to help reduce the primary care shortage in our country I am all for it. A nurse will never fully replace a physician, this can only help everyone.

If you feel that your practicing rights as a physician are being threatened by the practicing rights being lobbied for by DNPs or others than you were expecting to be a lazy doctor. There are still tons of things that only a physician will be able to do. If all you wanted to do was sit in your office and hand out antibiotics or prescribe basic medicine then you should get out of the premed world and go to DNP school. As a physician you are going to have to do WAY more than just that. I am not going to get into the details of their petition, I read the article, I have read these petitions before I already know what they say and there is nothing for the pemedical world to worry about. Stop whining, and stop looking down on your professional collegues.

You are part of the problem. It is this naive, they cant possibly replace us attitude that is the root of the problem.
 
I can assure you that no nurse is trying to take over your future practice as a physician. If you learned to actually utilize your nursing staff properly you would understand this. Nurses enjoy what they do, they want to help people and they way they do this is fundementally different from what physicians do.

I have no fear whatsoever for my future job as a physician. If DNPs and other primary care alternatives want to help reduce the primary care shortage in our country I am all for it. A nurse will never fully replace a physician, this can only help everyone.
You can assure whatever you want, but the truth is that nurses "enjoy what they do" so much that they are going to their nursing schools to do the job of physicians. You say a nurse will never fully replace a physician, but that's complete BS considering how many can practice independently and do so in many areas. They are replacing physicians. Plain and simple. Sure, you may feel your job is not on the line, and granted it will never be taken away, but you can thank the low pay and the cuts thanks to nurse practitioners now that you have to compete with them.
 
Okay, lets say it is my own fabrication, but lets follow the logic then. The premise of the argument is that NP give a standard of care superior to those of some doctors the OP knows. If this is the case, why is it? If this were true, I think it's implying that nurses have received a better education in basic medicine. What is your argument if you believe nurses give superior care to some doctors on basic medicine? Notice the argument is about medical knowledge, not how personable they are.

The problem with online courses is that they don't offer a standard like that of in-person classes. Many of them will be rigorous, but many of them will not be rigorous. Sometimes tests are completely online and someone with good referencing skills can use their book and google to answer questions. Hell, you can even do group tests if you want to. These courses are also designed for working professionals, so they already assume that you don't have the time of a regular student and accommodate for it.

His post was pointing out that just because you attend medical school doenst mean you are will be a competent practicing physician. It doesnt matter if you go to Harvard Medical School, if you dont know how to practically use your knowledge then you are a poor healthcare provider whether you are a nurse OR a physician. Are you trying to say that ALL medical schools are going to be able to differentiate between a person who can score well on verbal and written exams verses someone who can actually practice medicine competently?

You are part of the problem. It is this naive, they cant possibly replace us attitude that is the root of the problem.

Your naive, self-important paranoia is the problem. Nurses dont want to replace you.
 
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