Nurses masquerading as doctors

[Its_MurDAH]

Don't let the fox news title fool you. Usually I blindly avoid most articles with the word FOX associated with them but this is a very real issue and I think the comments section needs some representation from medical students and residents.

It is time to put a stop to NP encroachment.

http://health.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/04/15/nurses-masquerading-as-doctors/

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[AlexMorph]

I absolutely love this article. It isn't putting down nurses for doing their jobs, which many of them do well. It's addressing the encroachment of some nurses on territory reserved for physicians.

You want to be treated like a doctor? Here's an answer. Go to medical school and become one. Until then, get that useless DNP degree out of here. (Yes, I know most nurses don't have a DNP, but that's a whole another issue.)

 

[mtwop]

While I agree that the quality of the health care given by an NP or PA is less than that of an MD, I think it's ridiculous that a psychiatrist has the nerve to rip on nurses to the point that he did. I know plenty of nurses that could have gone to med school and I know plenty that couldn't have. To group them all together and say they're all np's and pa's simply because they weren't smart enough is pathetic. Maybe he should get off his high horse and write about something worth a crap. By the way this is coming from US MD medical student. Not a PA, NP, or RN in case you were wondering.

 

[ncguy2005]

While I agree that the quality of the health care given by an NP or PA is less than that of an MD, I think it's ridiculous that a psychiatrist has the nerve to rip on nurses to the point that he did. I know plenty of nurses that could have gone to med school and I know plenty that couldn't have. To group them all together and say they're all np's and pa's simply because they weren't smart enough is pathetic. Maybe he should get off his high horse and write about something worth a crap. By the way this is coming from US MD medical student. Not a PA, NP, or RN in case you were wondering.

While I agree, it would probably be wrong to do that in an article... this looks a lot more like an opinion piece.

 

[FutureDoc4]

While I agree that the quality of the health care given by an NP or PA is less than that of an MD, I think it's ridiculous that a psychiatrist has the nerve to rip on nurses to the point that he did. I know plenty of nurses that could have gone to med school and I know plenty that couldn't have. To group them all together and say they're all np's and pa's simply because they weren't smart enough is pathetic. Maybe he should get off his high horse and write about something worth a crap. By the way this is coming from US MD medical student. Not a PA, NP, or RN in case you were wondering.

Although I disagree with the articles tone. It portrays an important message that many are afraid to say. "we are losing our profession"... and we are losing it to people that may be outright dangerous (yet, are claiming equivalence). I mean, the reaction in the residency forums has been HUGE... just take a look at this thread from the residency area if you haven't been following all along.

Both attendings and residents seem very concerned. As we all should be.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=718880

 

[MossPoh]

While I agree that the quality of the health care given by an NP or PA is less than that of an MD, I think it's ridiculous that a psychiatrist has the nerve to rip on nurses to the point that he did. I know plenty of nurses that could have gone to med school and I know plenty that couldn't have. To group them all together and say they're all np's and pa's simply because they weren't smart enough is pathetic. Maybe he should get off his high horse and write about something worth a crap. By the way this is coming from US MD medical student. Not a PA, NP, or RN in case you were wondering.

He never overtly said that nurses weren't intelligent. He said that nursing school is less rigorous and easier. Smart people can take an easy route. Nurses are very good at what they are trained to do, just as physicians are very good at what they are trained to do. His tone may be condescending, but the point is important.

You think it isn't worth a crap? It is a very serious issue going on right now. It affects you and your patients tremendously. If you are a PA, NP, RN, AA, NA, DPM, DPT, or whatever field, be proud of your career. They all have pros and cons. It shouldn't be a backdoor into another field. If you don't like your career? Then go to school for another. Don't lobby under the guise of separate but equal training. That is b.s.

 

[AlexMorph]

Although I disagree with the articles tone. It portrays an important message that many are afraid to say. "we are losing our profession"... and we are losing it to people that may be outright dangerous (yet, are claiming equivalence). I mean, the reaction in the residency forums has been HUGE... just take a look at this thread from the residency area if you haven't been following all along.

Both attendings and residents seem very concerned. As we all should be.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=718880

I agree with you. Sadly, it's an issue that medical students just can't seem to concern themselves with for the most part. It's scary if you take a step back and look at what they are trying to do.

The CRNAs are quite possibly the worst in terms of encroaching and demanding equal rights.

 

[LadyWolverine]

I know plenty of nurses that could have gone to med school and I know plenty that couldn't have. To group them all together and say they're all np's and pa's simply because they weren't smart enough is pathetic.

The issue is not whether or not someone is *smart enough* to get into medical school (although I'm aware that the author did say something about nurses "not being smart enough to get into medical school" - a statement he has no way of backing up). Although your nurse friends who "could have gone to med school" are no doubt intelligent people, the fact of the matter remains is that they did NOT go to med school. Becoming a nurse or a PA and then having some on-the-job experience does not make you a physician. What makes one a full-fledged physician is the successful completion of 4 years of medical school and at least 1 year of post-graduate training, as well as the passage of all 3 steps of the USMLE. Only after the completion of these requirements can you then apply for licensure as a full-fledged physician, and all the rights/privileges/responsibilities etc involved. There is no back-door equivalent, nor should there be. The standards are in place for a reason.

Why does it always seem to break down into an argument over "who is smarter than whom" or "who works harder than whom"? The requirements are laid out right there. If you don't pay the money, spend the time, or do the work, then it doesn't matter if you're Albert Einstein - you won't meet the requirements to be a physician.

I don't buy into this "separate but equal" bullcrap either. Be happy with what you have - or pony up and do the work like everyone else had to do.

 

[mtwop]

I agree with some of the previous posts above about how it isn't right that nurses want the same credentials and the same treatment as doctors. However, I was just pointing the fact out that many of his comments are completely unjustified and untrue. Yes, I agree that CRNAs and nurses that want to be referred to doctors and deserve the same pay is a load of crap, but I also think the author of this article loses a lot of credibility by letting his own emotions about the subject shine through by ripping on the nursing intellectual capacity. What am I missing here?

 

[astrocreep96]

While I agree that the quality of the health care given by an NP or PA is less than that of an MD, I think it's ridiculous that a psychiatrist has the nerve to rip on nurses to the point that he did. I know plenty of nurses that could have gone to med school and I know plenty that couldn't have. To group them all together and say they're all np's and pa's simply because they weren't smart enough is pathetic. Maybe he should get off his high horse and write about something worth a crap. By the way this is coming from US MD medical student. Not a PA, NP, or RN in case you were wondering.

The guy's tone is harsh, but he is also correct.

My wife is a nurse and she is very smart (she had better grades than I could have dreamed for coming out of undergrad). However, the competition, training, and general attitude between nursing and "doctoring" are very different.

I don't think I realized to what extent until after my first semester this year (as an MS-2), but for example the amount of material we are required to learn (and, presumably, maintain) in pathophsyiology is enormous compared to what my wife had to learn (making no mention of what level she is required to operate at).

They really are two different fields, despite working well toward one common goal.

That doesn't make nursing any worse, per se, but it certainly doesn't make nursing suitable for the role of a physician. And when nurses try to muscle their way into that position, I think it's reasonable to expect a little backlash.

 

[Mr hawkings]

I agree with you. Sadly, it's an issue that medical students just can't seem to concern themselves with for the most part. It's scary if you take a step back and look at what they are trying to do.

The CRNAs are quite possibly the worst in terms of encroaching and demanding equal rights.

The problem is that any arguments you make may be misconstrued as saying that nurses are not smart and that you are a typical future physician looking down your nose at nurses. I think this is why med students tend to stay out of this argument till after they get that MD/DO.

 

[Dr Oops]

The problem is that any arguments you make may be misconstrued as saying that nurses are not smart and that you are a typical future physician looking down your nose at nurses. I think this is why med students tend to stay out of this argument till after they get that MD/DO.

I think they just got their heads in their books and nothing else matters. Alot of my friends in school didnt even know about this. We as a group (med students, residents, physicians) are notoriously un-political. Thats why we get stomped on by everyone else.

But we have to get involved or medicine is going to be chipped away. The nurses will get their independent practice rights through legislation instead of education.

I agree the tone of the letter is not how physicians as a group want to come off sounding to the public. We need to make it known just how much more training we get, how the studies they quote are flawed, and how we wouldnt trust our own or our families care to independent nurses.

We also have the power to not train or hire them when we are practicing physicians (although hopefully by then we wont have to worry about).

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9556805&postcount=317

this post has a bunch of contact emails and template letters right in it. It takes 5 minutes, theres no excuse not to just do it real quickly.

 

[Its_MurDAH]

A lot of good points have been made here.
Firstly, the fact that us health care professionals (and I am referring only to PHYSICANS here) are notoriously un-political is not only absolutely true but also frightening at the same time. We have just let the doors open wide to attack and encroachment from all sorts of ancillary specialists. This CRNA/DNP stuff is only the beginning.

While I found a couple of the author's sentences to be just a little bit on the harsh side (still, the truth hurts), the underlying fact remains that almost all these DNPs want the prestige, the respect, and, most importantly, the compensation associated with a doctor (MD) without doing any of the work.

Just read some of the comments posted by all these die-hard DNPs and DNPs-to-be at the bottom of the article and you realize how petty and meaningless their arguments are.
Anytime a PA or an NP says something like "there have been many times where I have saved my supervising physicians ass" or something similar, anything that follows should be automatically disregarded. They get no malpractice heat, make great money, go to like 2 years of school where they take classes like Nursing Theory and Holistic Medicine, have no significant debt, and they still want more. It is getting kinda ridiculous. Come on doctors, WAKE UP.

 

[Instatewaiter]

The NP was meant to be a short cut. They were meant to be under supervision.

You cannot have both. You cannot cut 3/4 of education and then say you can do everything with independence.

 

[Apollyon]

I asked one of the NPs that works the walk-in clinic side today about the whole DNP thing; she said that, if she went to med school, she would be divorced, and her (then ex-) husband would take a percentage of what she earned as a doc. She said she had NO desire for more - she had worked in a doctor's office, side by side the doc, and, if she had a question, would have the doc pop in and give his 2 cents. She said that, when he was on vacation, she would have nights where she was worried and couldn't sleep, and would call patients the next day to make sure they were all right and alive. She is very confident in her role, and she is one of the (fewer) NPs I've known that knows what she doesn't know, and I'm OK with that. (The other NP? Oh dear. A guy with musculoskeletal back pain with microscopic hematuria, and the guy's diabetic? Upgrade to us, despite her being an FNP, and the guy having an appt in 3 days with his PMD. She's friggin' primary care trained! WTH?)

 

[doctorperez]

It is getting kinda ridiculous. Come on doctors, WAKE UP.

One way to "wake up" is to join us in contacting our state congressmen to ask them to make it illegal for DNPs to be called "doctor" in the clinical setting.

Seven states already make illegal!

Please come see our thread here ---> http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show....php?p=9618392

and volunteer to help us lobby our state congressmen.

Thanks!