NY Times Article About Med Student Burnout

[batman1983]

Any competitive and prestigious job where you have to work >60hrs/wk will be just as demanding as medicine. From my experiences in IBanking, it is just as demanding if not more so than medicine, esp, in this current environment. I believe that to be successful in any such profession as medicine and finance, you just have to put things in context and be able to balance your priorities(family, health, etc) such that you dont burnout. For sure, the medical school process is not easy. If it was, everyone would be doctors.

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[student1799]

I agree, med school is SUPPOSED to be HARD. Otherwise, anyone could do it, right?! You don't want just anyone taking care of your loved one, you only want the very best. [...]

Well, gee weez, Dr. Chen, what the hell did you expect med school to be, CLUB MED?

I agree with smq123: let's not be so quick to judge students who find med school rough. Not only is there a tendency to assume that these people are "whiners" and emotional wimps, there's an implication--as in doublecortin's post--that anyone who questions the way things are done in med school must not be "good enough" to practice medicine on a high level.

Well, in this case that's pure b.s. Dr. Chen is a kick-*** transplant surgeon who went to med school at Northwestern (a second-rate place, as we all know), did her residency at Yale, and was on the faculty at UCLA. (In 1999, she was named UCLA Outstanding Physician of the Year.) So when people as smart as she is, who clearly excelled under the present system, question the way things are done, maybe it's worth listening to them.

 

[pianola]

So when people as smart as she is, who clearly excelled under the present system, question the way things are done, maybe it's worth listening to them.

 

[gujuDoc]

There is no doubt that there need to be changes in both the medical system and the medical education system. However, I think a lot of people have a problem with people who whine who also say they didn't know what they were getting into because often tims moes of these people are people with no real life real world work experience otherwise they'd know that all jobs have a lot of problems and medical education and the medical system is not the only place where such problems are.

 

[nellia]

There is no doubt that there need to be changes in both the medical system and the medical education system. However, I think a lot of people have a problem with people who whine who also say they didn't know what they were getting into because often tims moes of these people are people with no real life real world work experience otherwise they'd know that all jobs have a lot of problems and medical education and the medical system is not the only place where such problems are.

totally agree with this. if you want to have any sort of high power profession, you are going to have to work your tail off and make sacrifices -- whether it's med school, law school, ibanking, etc. there is just no other way around it. BUT, at the same time i do have friends in med school right now who repeatedly tell me "don't do it" because they are so burned out.

i used to be a competitive athlete and used to train ~30 hours a week. if anyone had asked me in the middle of the season whether or not i was burnt out or hated it, i would have said yes. but if you had asked me at the end of the season when all the hard work i had put in had paid off.. i would have said it was totally worth it. i think in the end it's a personal goal -- yes changes need to be made to the system but if it's that important to you .. you will do what it takes to get the results you want .

 

[smq123]

However, I think a lot of people have a problem with people who whine who also say they didn't know what they were getting into because often tims moes of these people are people with no real life real world work experience otherwise they'd know that all jobs have a lot of problems and medical education and the medical system is not the only place where such problems are.

Hmmm...do you really think so?

How do you expect people to know what it feels like to be under, at least, a quarter of a million dollars in debt....that will take them multiple decades to pay off?

How do you expect people to know what it feels like to work for 36 hours straight?

How do you expect people to know what it feels like to know that one malignant intern or resident can totally torpedo your career prospects?

I don't know if you can expect people to know that stuff.

I mean, if you think about it, the medical education system IS kind of funny. I had a peds intern who was the most impolite person ever. She was an INTERN....and yet refused to acknowledge the MS3s. She never said good morning to us, refused to look us in the face, and when we waved hello to her, she'd smirk and walk across the hallway to get away from us.

If I had met her as a beginning MS3, I would have totally accepted this kind of behavior as normal, and wouldn't have demanded that, you know, she act like a mildly courteous human being. Strange.

Is there another profession where, if you ask the ****ing DESK CLERK to call you by your NAME (and not just "Hey, you, med student"), they call you arrogant and snobby?

It's kind of screwed up, if you stop and think about it.

 

[turkeyjerky]

There is no doubt that there need to be changes in both the medical system and the medical education system. However, I think a lot of people have a problem with people who whine who also say they didn't know what they were getting into because often tims moes of these people are people with no real life real world work experience otherwise they'd know that all jobs have a lot of problems and medical education and the medical system is not the only place where such problems are.

Actually most of my classmates who complain the most about school are older, non-traditional students who went into medicine to "help people" or to "serve their fellow human beings".

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Med school, and residency, are like the military. You can't know what it's like until you do it, and no 'simulation exercise' or book knowledge can compensate.

I HATED first year. I mean, really really really hated it. I actually wrote two letters of resignation to my dean of students, but never sent them-- and of course, I felt that I was the only person having difficulty in this sea of happy single-minded people.

I remember distinctly a couple of months into MS-3 year, when my rotation group really started feeling comfortable with each other, having a session much like Dr. Chen and her friends did. We all finally admitted how much we hated the first year, how we each felt entirely isolated and anomalous in our displeasure, how we thought about quitting, etc.

It's extremely common, and chances are it will happen to every single one of you at some point in your medical student career. People just don't want to talk about it much since they're afraid it will provoke a triumphant "you're not cut out for this" from an equally dissatisfied person attempting to assuage their existential anxiety via direct competition.

 

[gujuDoc]

Actually most of my classmates who complain the most about school are older, non-traditional students who went into medicine to "help people" or to "serve their fellow human beings".

I guess it is dependent on class to class and school to school.

 

[heartthrob]

I didn't realize I'm supposed to be miserable. I guess I need to do a better job keeping up with the literature.

lol.

 

[Doublecortin]

Actually most of my classmates who complain the most about school are older, non-traditional students who went into medicine to "help people" or to "serve their fellow human beings".

 

[gujuDoc]

Hmmm...do you really think so?

How do you expect people to know what it feels like to be under, at least, a quarter of a million dollars in debt....that will take them multiple decades to pay off?

How do you expect people to know what it feels like to work for 36 hours straight?

How do you expect people to know what it feels like to know that one malignant intern or resident can totally torpedo your career prospects?

I don't know if you can expect people to know that stuff.

I mean, if you think about it, the medical education system IS kind of funny. I had a peds intern who was the most impolite person ever. She was an INTERN....and yet refused to acknowledge the MS3s. She never said good morning to us, refused to look us in the face, and when we waved hello to her, she'd smirk and walk across the hallway to get away from us.

If I had met her as a beginning MS3, I would have totally accepted this kind of behavior as normal, and wouldn't have demanded that, you know, she act like a mildly courteous human being. Strange.

Is there another profession where, if you ask the ****ing DESK CLERK to call you by your NAME (and not just "Hey, you, med student"), they call you arrogant and snobby?

It's kind of screwed up, if you stop and think about it.

The 36 hours straight is the only thing truly different from a lot of other jobs. I can tell you my family members have dealt with malignant people in their jobs and several others I know in medicine have as well. That is the point you are msising. People think medicine is the only job which has internal politics or malignant attitudes or nasty people you have to deal with whether it is patients or coworkers. I got news for you, it is not. I hear of malignant personalities in almost any customer service jobs whether it is former waitresses or nurses or people in stores or pharmacy technicians or pharmacists. You see malignant personalities in research as well. I can tell you a few stories.

By not acknowledging this, you are strengthening the point I was making. Every job deals with malignant personalities whether fro coworkers or customers. Every job has a ton of bureaucratic paperwork and things that can use some changing. Every job has its sets of regulations. Do you honestly believe that even the richest of the rich got their by sitting on their rear end and that all people not in medicine don't work 60+ hours a week who are in higher positions? Do you really believe that everyone else has it easier in this life? well then you are truly ignorant.

The only one thing unique to medicine is the 36 hours straight on call hours and at one time 120 hour residency work hours, now 80 hour residency hours and high amount of debt.

Do you really think a lot of other careers don't deal with people whocan ruin their careers?? The wife a current MS 3 I've known for a long time was framed for doing something she didn't do when she was working in social work and lost her job from being close to a promotion. Why did the girl frame her? She was jealous that my friend got a promotion. Other times there were visible violations when my brother used to work in old service jobs with restaurants where he was not even old enough to work the hours they wanted and they didn't give a crap and then mistreated him. These are just a couple of cases. I can thhink of many more.

You prove my point about the real world with your whining. The only one thing you have to whine about that is legit is truly the debt and on call hours. The other stuff is possible in other jobs as well and if you don't think so th you really haven't lived in the real world.

 

[Jolie South]

The 36 hours straight is the only thing truly different from a lot of other jobs. I can tell you my family members have dealt with malignant people in their jobs and several others I know in medicine have as well. That is the point you are msising. People think medicine is the only job which has internal politics or malignant attitudes or nasty people you have to deal with whether it is patients or coworkers. I got news for you, it is not. I hear of malignant personalities in almost any customer service jobs whether it is former waitresses or nurses or people in stores or pharmacy technicians or pharmacists. You see malignant personalities in research as well. I can tell you a few stories.

By not acknowledging this, you are strengthening the point I was making. Every job deals with malignant personalities whether fro coworkers or customers. Every job has a ton of bureaucratic paperwork and things that can use some changing. Every job has its sets of regulations. Do you honestly believe that even the richest of the rich got their by sitting on their rear end and that all people not in medicine don't work 60+ hours a week who are in higher positions? Do you really believe that everyone else has it easier in this life? well then you are truly ignorant.

The only one thing unique to medicine is the 36 hours straight on call hours and at one time 120 hour residency work hours, now 80 hour residency hours and high amount of debt.

Do you really think a lot of other careers don't deal with people whocan ruin their careers?? The wife a current MS 3 I've known for a long time was framed for doing something she didn't do when she was working in social work and lost her job from being close to a promotion. Why did the girl frame her? She was jealous that my friend got a promotion. Other times there were visible violations when my brother used to work in old service jobs with restaurants where he was not even old enough to work the hours they wanted and they didn't give a crap and then mistreated him. These are just a couple of cases. I can thhink of many more.

You prove my point about the real world with your whining. The only one thing you have to whine about that is legit is truly the debt and on call hours. The other stuff is possible in other jobs as well and if you don't think so th you really haven't lived in the real world.

Malignancy IS everywhere.

I worked in corporate research and development for a couple of years and there were plenty of stories to go around. There was this one guy in particular that thought he was too important to follow the safety rules which resulted in the amputation of a coworker's hand. He then went on to claim that he "saved" this woman, all the while tanking a multimillion dollar project. Did he get fired? Nope. He threw everyone else he could under the bus and played politics to keep his job. I know because my friend was the often target of his shady maneuvers. This guy would bring my friend "Bob" into the senior manager's office to say what a crappy job he was doing and then take credit for Bob and other team members' innovative work.

My cube was right next to Bob's, so I'd hear their daily encounters. I don't think this guy was capable of talking to a subordinate without the condescending manner that you'd use with a 5 year old.

 

[smq123]

The 36 hours straight is the only thing truly different from a lot of other jobs. I can tell you my family members have dealt with malignant people in their jobs and several others I know in medicine have as well. That is the point you are msising. People think medicine is the only job which has internal politics or malignant attitudes or nasty people you have to deal with whether it is patients or coworkers. I got news for you, it is not. I hear of malignant personalities in almost any customer service jobs whether it is former waitresses or nurses or people in stores or pharmacy technicians or pharmacists. You see malignant personalities in research as well. I can tell you a few stories.

By not acknowledging this, you are strengthening the point I was making.

You prove my point about the real world with your whining. The only one thing you have to whine about that is legit is truly the debt and on call hours. The other stuff is possible in other jobs as well and if you don't think so th you really haven't lived in the real world.

No, YOU are missing the point.

Yes, I have worked with malignant personalities in other jobs. (Oddly, I HAVE had jobs outside of med school! )

In THOSE jobs, however, I was not forced to work 36 hours straight with those malignant people. I did my job, avoided them as much as possible (which was, remarkably, not that hard), and then went home. As opposed to medicine, where seeing a lot of these malignant people is unavoidable.

But thanks for calling me ignorant! Really! That's SO great of you!



Strangely enough, I've had jobs before. I've worked in places outside of med school. Even the worst week at those other jobs was still better than half a day of my inpatient peds rotation. UGH.

 

[gujuDoc]

No, YOU are missing the point.

Yes, I have worked with malignant personalities in other jobs. (Oddly, I HAVE had jobs outside of med school! )

In THOSE jobs, however, I was not forced to work 36 hours straight with those malignant people. I did my job, avoided them as much as possible (which was, remarkably, not that hard), and then went home. As opposed to medicine, where seeing a lot of these malignant people is unavoidable.

But thanks for calling me ignorant! Really! That's SO great of you!



Strangely enough, I've had jobs before. I've worked in places outside of med school. Even the worst week at those other jobs was still better than half a day of my inpatient peds rotation. UGH.

I acknowledged that the 36 hours on call and factors like debt as being difficult to deal with and not on the same scale as other things. But my point was that so many people talk about how no one else in the world has it hard with different aspects of job and life and acts like medicine is always the only place it exists, and that is far from reality. And it comes out in articles like the one above. If she complained about 120 hours of residency or programs where residency 80 hour rule was broken and made it more like 100+ hours like has been the case at Hopkins in the past, then it would be more relevant and I'd take it more seriously.

If you brought up the fact that you wouldn't be bringing in a paycheck til you are in your 30s and after tons of debt and reducing salaries and increasing control from insurance companies as your main gripe with medicine and the main gripe with medical training that it requires all the jumping through hoops of years and years of education before you come down to a real job and pennies worth of pay for residency, I'd take you seriously.

But when people say they didn't know what to expect despite the numerous stories about how medicine really is on the frontlines and all the warnings about how medicine is, or when people say certain things occur only in medicine that occur elsewhere and then whine all the time about it and how they have it so horrible despite the fact that others not only have to deal with malignant people but the threat of losing jobs esp. in times of economic crisis where doctors still have jobs, then I get annoyed.

if you brought up the people suing left and right and malpractice premiums, I'd take you seriously. But again, when talk about those things that are universal to all jobs and then make it out like medicine is the only job where it occurs then I find it hard to take you or the original author or anyone else seriously.

If you are going to complain, at least lets talk about those factors that are truly a lot worse then what everyone else deals with...the threat of lawsuits, increasing malpractice premiums, reducing salaries, increasing debt, years and years of your youth that is spent on training rather then working and earning a living, etc.

The problem is that these sort of articles whenever they pop up don't focus on those things that really are the problems unique to medicine but come off as whining about the things people face in real life in all fields which makes them irritating to read. And always somewhere in the article is the implication that these people never really talked with physicians and residents to even get a sense of even mere opinions of medicine and then start off with how they were truly ignorant of the process. If that is not what they mean, then I apologize for my posts, but that is the way it comes off.

 

[smq123]

But my point was that so many people talk about how no one else in the world has it hard with different aspects of job and life and acts like medicine is always the only place it exists, and that is far from reality. And it comes out in articles like the one above.

The problem is, though, is that the things that ARE unique to mdicine are just that....they are unique problems that you cannot understand unless you've been through them. So, when discussing the frustrating parts of medicine, people tend to fall back on problems that other people would understand - declining reimbursements, awful personalities, long work hours, working weekends, etc.

Trying to write about how mentally tiring it is to get a wave of brand-new patients every 3rd day (all of whom have incredibly long problem-lists) is like trying to talk about music. Or trying to explain to a store manager how emotionally difficult it is to be in an ICU or on certain surgical services, and have morning rounds consist of "Mr. A is crumping, Mr. B de-satted to the 60s last night and is circling the drain but the family STILL refuses to make him DNR/DNI, Mr. D is probably going to die in a day or two," etc. - how do you make people understand?

You can't. So you try to talk about the parts of your job that people WOULD understand....which are (to be fair) usually the most superficial parts of the job....

 

[pianola]

Trying to write about how mentally tiring it is to get a wave of brand-new patients every 3rd day (all of whom have incredibly long problem-lists) is like trying to talk about music. Or trying to explain to a store manager how emotionally difficult it is to be in an ICU or on certain surgical services, and have morning rounds consist of "Mr. A is crumping, Mr. B de-satted to the 60s last night and is circling the drain but the family STILL refuses to make him DNR/DNI, Mr. D is probably going to die in a day or two," etc. - how do you make people understand?

This part of your post made me think for a bit. I'm really glad when med students post in pre-allo.

I remember that the article suggested that the sensitive ones might be the most vulnerable.

You know, volunteering as I have in various places (including hospice) I have from time to time felt overwhelmed by the severity and reality of other peoples' illnesses, but I always kind of felt that I came out better for having learned from their illnesses. That said --> I can imagine it must be an entirely different phenomena altogether to face critically ill people daily on 12+ hour shifts. I volunteered only about 9-12 hours per week at my peak of volunteering.

I hope I'm cut out for this and I hope I'll have the internal strength to make it. I know I'm gonna give it everything I've got. I hope everything I've got is 'enough'.

 

[gujuDoc]

The problem is, though, is that the things that ARE unique to mdicine are just that....they are unique problems that you cannot understand unless you've been through them. So, when discussing the frustrating parts of medicine, people tend to fall back on problems that other people would understand - declining reimbursements, awful personalities, long work hours, working weekends, etc.

Trying to write about how mentally tiring it is to get a wave of brand-new patients every 3rd day (all of whom have incredibly long problem-lists) is like trying to talk about music. Or trying to explain to a store manager how emotionally difficult it is to be in an ICU or on certain surgical services, and have morning rounds consist of "Mr. A is crumping, Mr. B de-satted to the 60s last night and is circling the drain but the family STILL refuses to make him DNR/DNI, Mr. D is probably going to die in a day or two," etc. - how do you make people understand?

You can't. So you try to talk about the parts of your job that people WOULD understand....which are (to be fair) usually the most superficial parts of the job....

Fair enough, I see your point!

 

[CVAme]

Not to bruise anyone’s egos here or anything, but let us not forget about the troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am sure they are working close to 36 hours straight for a lot less money and under a lot more stress.

This is the reason I am glad I did not go right into college or into medicine for that matter. I am not looking forward to medical school in the least, but compared to Marine Corps boot camp or life as an infantryman in the Marine Corps, it can not be that bad.

Let us also not forget the paramedics out there who with less than 1/4 of the schooling are still working 120 hours a week just to pay the bills. They go to work and deal with a lot of the same patients and make some of the same life and death decisions on a daily basis.

Just trying putting things into perspective for you. Things are not that bad in the grand scheme of things. You are not living in a hole in the desert, with people trying to shoot you or blow you up. Be happy, things will get better. You are all doing noble work, even if it does not feel like it some times.

 

[student1799]

The 36 hours straight is the only thing truly different from a lot of other jobs. I can tell you my family members have dealt with malignant people in their jobs and several others I know in medicine have as well. That is the point you are msising. People think medicine is the only job which has internal politics or malignant attitudes or nasty people you have to deal with whether it is patients or coworkers. I got news for you, it is not. I hear of malignant personalities in almost any customer service jobs whether it is former waitresses or nurses or people in stores or pharmacy technicians or pharmacists. You see malignant personalities in research as well. I can tell you a few stories.

gujuDoc, there's a really important point that you're missing here: this thread is not about doctors, but medical STUDENTS. So smq123, and indeed all other medical students, are NOT employees in a job--they're supposed to be learning. In fact, they're paying up to $45K per year for the privilege of being pushed around, abused and yelled at. Is that anyone's idea of a positive educational experience?

I know as much about the real world as anyone else: I worked for 20 years on Wall Street, and took more abuse than I care to remember. But at least THEY were paying ME while I was taking it, and I was free to quit if I so chose (at least in theory). This is an entirely different situation. As I mentioned, it's the recipients of the abuse who are also paying for it, and they're NOT free to leave, because if they left one med school, no other would take them. And what can an ex-medical student do without an MD degree? Pretty much nothing. (Not to mention that without the MD, they'd have no way to pay back the med school loans they've already taken out.)

There is room for a whole separate debate on the lives, working conditions and career satisfaction of residents and practicing physicians. But I don't know why there has to be so much debate about whether med school "has to be" horrible. Why should anything be horrible, if we can avoid it? It's probably unrealistic to think that we can take away the horror of the difficult medical situations that students will have to face, but I certainly think it's possible, and desirable, to reduce the hazing-and-mental-cruelty aspects of it.

 

[pianola]

Why should anything be horrible, if we can avoid it?

I think this is something we should remember when we're doctors in the future and we're responsible for training the next generation.

 

[gujuDoc]

gujuDoc, there's a really important point that you're missing here: this thread is not about doctors, but medical STUDENTS. So smq123, and indeed all other medical students, are NOT employees in a job--they're supposed to be learning. In fact, they're paying up to $45K per year for the privilege of being pushed around, abused and yelled at. Is that anyone's idea of a positive educational experience?

I know as much about the real world as anyone else: I worked for 20 years on Wall Street, and took more abuse than I care to remember. But at least THEY were paying ME while I was taking it, and I was free to quit if I so chose (at least in theory). This is an entirely different situation. As I mentioned, it's the recipients of the abuse who are also paying for it, and they're NOT free to leave, because if they left one med school, no other would take them. And what can an ex-medical student do without an MD degree? Pretty much nothing. (Not to mention that without the MD, they'd have no way to pay back the med school loans they've already taken out.)

There is room for a whole separate debate on the lives, working conditions and career satisfaction of residents and practicing physicians. But I don't know why there has to be so much debate about whether med school "has to be" horrible. Why should anything be horrible, if we can avoid it? It's probably unrealistic to think that we can take away the horror of the difficult medical situations that students will have to face, but I certainly think it's possible, and desirable, to reduce the hazing-and-mental-cruelty aspects of it.

Fair enough, point taken.

Part of the problem in medical school, in jobs, etc. is the same mentality that exists in many older fraternities and sororities. its the attitude that says we had it this way soyou have to have it this way because we went through hell so should you.

That's what happens. I've seen the same mentality with college students in their greek organizations and I believe that is the mentality in medicine.

Another part of the mentality and not the only other part of the mentality is the old boys club attitude in medicine. I mean until like 50 years ago at best, there weren't many minorities, many women, etc. in medicine. A lot of it was an old white boys club mentality judging from whom makes up the population of the elsdest doctors. A lot of physicians remember the days and ages of 120 hour work weeks in residency portion of training and times when medicine was thought of as a field where you maintained nothing short of cool indifference towards everything rather then being taught about empathy and when people were mostly males who were taught to have that tough boy image of boys don't cry and these are the same people who think we have it easy even though we have it tougher in some ways with higher patient loads and reducing salaries and increasing debt when we get out.

Sadly, the problems that exist will not go away until the newer generations themselves start to change that mentality if they want it to be changed and when they are in that position to change it later down the road. However, what usually happens is that they become a part of that club that says we had to go through hell so if we are ever training you we'll make you go through it too, so if they remain in academia it is more likely to be said that the cycle will repeat; intensifying it is also the fact is that the more unhappy a doctor is and the more cynical they are, the more abusive, more cruel they are likely to be; bitterness and anger often breed aggression. Not to say all people are like that but this is what I believe generally brings about the same things being repeated over.

 

[gujuDoc]

I think this is something we should remember when we're doctors in the future and we're responsible for training the next generation.

And sadly most not all but most won't remember that any more then they remember how they thought their prereqs were difficult at the time and look back as medical students to those times.

Most people forget that they once sat in certain shoes and don't care once they are out of the education system if the future generation goes through the same thing. Most often then not, they only care to complain how future generations have it easier or should be privleged to be where they are or how they should go through the same hell just because their generation had to go through it. Or they are apathetic because it no longer affects their life what happens to future students and don't want to be involved in bringing about those changes.


But amongst all this negativity it is not to say that all schools are this way or all physicians or residents or professors are malignant. It depends on school to school and department to department.

 

[Mariah246]

Solid article. Knowing what I know now, there's a good chance I wouldn't go through all of this again if I had the opportunity to go back in time.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Hmmm...do you really think so?

How do you expect people to know what it feels like to be under, at least, a quarter of a million dollars in debt....that will take them multiple decades to pay off?

How do you expect people to know what it feels like to work for 36 hours straight?

How do you expect people to know what it feels like to know that one malignant intern or resident can totally torpedo your career prospects?

I don't know if you can expect people to know that stuff.

I mean, if you think about it, the medical education system IS kind of funny. I had a peds intern who was the most impolite person ever. She was an INTERN....and yet refused to acknowledge the MS3s. She never said good morning to us, refused to look us in the face, and when we waved hello to her, she'd smirk and walk across the hallway to get away from us.

If I had met her as a beginning MS3, I would have totally accepted this kind of behavior as normal, and wouldn't have demanded that, you know, she act like a mildly courteous human being. Strange.

Is there another profession where, if you ask the ****ing DESK CLERK to call you by your NAME (and not just "Hey, you, med student"), they call you arrogant and snobby?

It's kind of screwed up, if you stop and think about it.

That is screwed up. I understand the long hours but don't understand why people have to put others down in the midst of them.

 

[gujuDoc]

Solid article. Knowing what I know now, there's a good chance I wouldn't go through all of this again if I had the opportunity to go back in time.

Are you an attending now? What stage are you at? Just curious.

 

[BluePhoenix]

I think at least some of the problem is the attitude of the students...though maybe that's not the right word. Med school, while an awful lot of material, is not difficult conceptually...you're not being asked to create something new or discover something, it's not an open ended question you must solve...your task is simply to learn. (No, I'm not saying it's easy to learn that much material).

Sometimes, it's us that make things worse than they need to be. Perhaps after spending years building up to med school and talking about how great it's going to be when you're a doctor and all, students feel unable to complain? I've been through some very intense programs, and I've never really seen people so isolated in their dislike for a program as there seems to be in medicine. Why? Why are students afraid or unwilling to admit that they don't like med school?...med school isn't the same as life as a doctor, especially the first two years.

Or maybe it's the type of people that are good at getting into med school. As the quality of candidates improves, so do the "necessary" activities and grades to get in. (Yes, I realize there are exceptions) Perhaps as the pressure to do all these things to get in, and then to continue with all the groups and activities for residencies and all...students are missing out on what keeps people sane and healthy. This is the fault of both the schools AND the applicants, each pushing the limits on what they can ask for and what they're willing to do to get in. It seems to turn students into high strung perfectionists with a complete fear of failure that are unable or unwilling to allow themselves time to relax and enjoy life. Being a doctor is a great goal to have and a wonderful profession, but it shouldn't have to come at the sacrifice of yourself and your other interests. It shouldn't be medical perfection or death, that's an unhealthy way to look at anything. Yes there's a financial burden at the start and long hours and lots of information...but it's doable and perhaps students just need to remember to step away when they need to and take a mental health day if they need one.

 

[gujuDoc]

I think at least some of the problem is the attitude of the students...though maybe that's not the right word. Med school, while an awful lot of material, is not difficult conceptually...you're not being asked to create something new or discover something, it's not an open ended question you must solve...your task is simply to learn. (No, I'm not saying it's easy to learn that much material).

Sometimes, it's us that make things worse than they need to be. Perhaps after spending years building up to med school and talking about how great it's going to be when you're a doctor and all, students feel unable to complain? I've been through some very intense programs, and I've never really seen people so isolated in their dislike for a program as there seems to be in medicine. Why? Why are students afraid or unwilling to admit that they don't like med school?...med school isn't the same as life as a doctor, especially the first two years.

Or maybe it's the type of people that are good at getting into med school. As the quality of candidates improves, so do the "necessary" activities and grades to get in. (Yes, I realize there are exceptions) Perhaps as the pressure to do all these things to get in, and then to continue with all the groups and activities for residencies and all...students are missing out on what keeps people sane and healthy. This is the fault of both the schools AND the applicants, each pushing the limits on what they can ask for and what they're willing to do to get in. It seems to turn students into high strung perfectionists with a complete fear of failure that are unable or unwilling to allow themselves time to relax and enjoy life. Being a doctor is a great goal to have and a wonderful profession, but it shouldn't have to come at the sacrifice of yourself and your other interests. It shouldn't be medical perfection or death, that's an unhealthy way to look at anything. Yes there's a financial burden at the start and long hours and lots of information...but it's doable and perhaps students just need to remember to step away when they need to and take a mental health day if they need one.

One of the things I've learned is that alot of people who get into medical school are used to being at the top but when they get put with a lot of other people who are also used to that, then having a 4.0 in med school doesn't necessarily mean top 10 of the class any more.

A lot of medical students hate not knowing they are at the top or hate knowing that they won't be able to know everything all the time for the test because there's too damn much to know it all sometimes, esp. in short spans of time they have to go through it all.

 

[gujuDoc]

That is screwed up. I understand the long hours but don't understand why people have to put others down in the midst of them.

Long hours, disdain towards the harsh medical system, and general bitterness can turn even the most happy go lucky people into intolerable people.

When you are on your 30th hour of a shift with no sleep the last thing you are thinking about is being polite just cuz some med student is paying your attendings to teach them. And this is true esp. if it is on the residents to teach you because residents aren't getting paid extra to teach medical students. Your tuition money goes to the school not necessarily those who will be showing you things so to use money as an excuse for why 100% politeness is to be expected is stupid.

 

[smq123]

That is screwed up. I understand the long hours but don't understand why people have to put others down in the midst of them.

Long hours, disdain towards the harsh medical system, and general bitterness can turn even the most happy go lucky people into intolerable people.

When you are on your 30th hour of a shift with no sleep the last thing you are thinking about is being polite just cuz some med student is paying your attendings to teach them. And this is true esp. if it is on the residents to teach you because residents aren't getting paid extra to teach medical students. Your tuition money goes to the school not necessarily those who will be showing you things so to use money as an excuse for why 100% politeness is to be expected is stupid.

Oh, please. LONG HOURS?!

These are desk clerks and nurses, almost all of whom work EIGHT hour shifts. That's right, they work a totally normal number of hours. And they're the ones who, by and large, treat the med students like trash. Even after 30 hours, my residents were pretty subdued, but civil. But bother the desk clerk during her 3rd hour playing sudoku, or interrupt her "highly important" crossword puzzle...and be prepared to duck.

In any case, there is no need to get so self-righteous about where your tuition money goes to. It may not go directly to those who "will be showing you things," but that makes no difference. 100% politeness IS to be expected - whether or not you're paying tuition. It's all part of "normal social interaction" - the very thing that many pre-meds think that doctors and med students have forgotten.

 

[gujuDoc]

Oh, please. LONG HOURS?!

These are desk clerks and nurses, almost all of whom work EIGHT hour shifts. That's right, they work a totally normal number of hours. And they're the ones who, by and large, treat the med students like trash. Even after 30 hours, my residents were pretty subdued, but civil. But bother the desk clerk during her 3rd hour playing sudoku, or interrupt her "highly important" crossword puzzle...and be prepared to duck.

In any case, there is no need to get so self-righteous about where your tuition money goes to. It may not go directly to those who "will be showing you things," but that makes no difference. 100% politeness IS to be expected - whether or not you're paying tuition. It's all part of "normal social interaction" - the very thing that many pre-meds think that doctors and med students have forgotten.

Well then if it is the nurses and secretaries I'm truly sorry. I've been volunteering at an ER for a few months and I can relate to how nurses and secretaries do brush off anyone that gets in their way. The general attitude towards the presence of the medical students who were present the last time I was there was proof of that one. If it is the secretaries and nurses then I'm sorry since I know what it is like first hand to have the worst experiences dealing with those at the bottom of the totem pole in various offices i.e. secretaries. However, to be fair, while I don't know your particular encounters I know that several secretaries and nurses I've spoken with tell me they act rudely to medical students and residents alike because they feel a lot of the residents and med students have an arrogant streak to them and treat them like crap. Maybe not in your case, maybe you just got some unlucky situations, but it is the truth in a lot of places.

 

[gujuDoc]

Not to bruise anyone’s egos here or anything, but let us not forget about the troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am sure they are working close to 36 hours straight for a lot less money and under a lot more stress.

This is the reason I am glad I did not go right into college or into medicine for that matter. I am not looking forward to medical school in the least, but compared to Marine Corps boot camp or life as an infantryman in the Marine Corps, it can not be that bad.

Let us also not forget the paramedics out there who with less than 1/4 of the schooling are still working 120 hours a week just to pay the bills. They go to work and deal with a lot of the same patients and make some of the same life and death decisions on a daily basis.

Just trying putting things into perspective for you. Things are not that bad in the grand scheme of things. You are not living in a hole in the desert, with people trying to shoot you or blow you up. Be happy, things will get better. You are all doing noble work, even if it does not feel like it some times.

Let's hope pandabearMD doesn't see this post of yours. He always says his infantry days were no where near as miserable as his med school days and the shortlived days of fam. med residency in Duke prior to getting into EM and transferring.