NY Times article: "Dream Jobs Disappearing for Radiology Trainees"

[radman123]

What they are trying to do will crash and burn. Mark my words. Keep this point and read it in a few years. Who wants to go to med school, do 8 years of undergrad and med school plus 3-6 extra years of training for 200-300k? You realize that you can do finance, marketing, consulting, etc and make that kind of money with farrrrrr less training and work. They can try what they want but if they continue chipping away at salaries there will be no doctors left. Why would peopl ewaste years of their life on this if they can choose a different field that's easier and pays similarly?

Think medicine will always be desirable. Medicine is still relatively prestigious. It currently offers salary and job placement guarantees that other fields do not including finance, marketing, etc. Most premeds do not understand how difficult both training and practice is. Their impression of an average doctor's lifestyle is likely not accurate. They are still idealistic and want to help people and be a hero. They do not understand what a huge negative impact loans will have on their life.

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[bronx43]

What they are trying to do will crash and burn. Mark my words. Keep this point and read it in a few years. Who wants to go to med school, do 8 years of undergrad and med school plus 3-6 extra years of training for 200-300k? You realize that you can do finance, marketing, consulting, etc and make that kind of money with farrrrrr less training and work. They can try what they want but if they continue chipping away at salaries there will be no doctors left. Why would peopl ewaste years of their life on this if they can choose a different field that's easier and pays similarly?

This is beating a dead horse around these parts, but jobs in high finance and management consulting are hard to come by. You think bulge brackets or McK/Bain/BCG are tripping over themselves to recruit college grads around the country? More like they only make a trip to top 15-20 schools and hire like 10% of those highly qualified Ivy League kids lining up at their table at the recruiting sessions. Even if you do get hired, it's two and out for 90% of your analyst class. What are you gonna do then? B school? Then what? Go corporate and make 120k? Sure, you may be one of the incredibly talented ones that make your way up to managing director at Goldman or partner at Bain, but you will have ZERO life. Those guys make general surgeons look like they spend no time at work.

The bottom line is this. They can keep cutting physician salaries, and then they can make medical school a direct entry path from high school like every other country in the world. Maybe if they cut a bit more, they'll pay for your schooling too.

 

[shark2000]

What they are trying to do will crash and burn. Mark my words. Keep this point and read it in a few years. Who wants to go to med school, do 8 years of undergrad and med school plus 3-6 extra years of training for 200-300k? You realize that you can do finance, marketing, consulting, etc and make that kind of money with farrrrrr less training and work. They can try what they want but if they continue chipping away at salaries there will be no doctors left. Why would peopl ewaste years of their life on this if they can choose a different field that's easier and pays similarly?

Average salary of doctors are around 150k. Average salary of academics for higher paid fields is around 200-250k. Why all these people do med school?

If this is your mindset, do't do medicine. For even highest paid fields salaries more than 300k is not easily acievable in desirable areas. You will de disappointed.

And your argument is typical of a premed or med student who is forced to do medicine.

There is a huge obsession among med students for money. I bet no matter what you do, you can have a comfortable life. If you can not b happy by making 200 k, I guarantee that you won't be happy making 500 k.

I am saying this for the third time on this post. Do something that if they take away your money, still you have something in your hands. Satisfaction should come from inside and should not be depedent totally on external factors.

If you seek satisfaction from outside, you will be like a pathologist who jumps into radiology forum and kills himself to prove that radiology sucks, in order to overcome his inferiority complex.

 

[Silent Cool]

This is beating a dead horse around these parts, but jobs in high finance and management consulting are hard to come by. You think bulge brackets or McK/Bain/BCG are tripping over themselves to recruit college grads around the country? More like they only make a trip to top 15-20 schools and hire like 10% of those highly qualified Ivy League kids lining up at their table at the recruiting sessions. Even if you do get hired, it's two and out for 90% of your analyst class. What are you gonna do then? B school? Then what? Go corporate and make 120k? Sure, you may be one of the incredibly talented ones that make your way up to managing director at Goldman or partner at Bain, but you will have ZERO life. Those guys make general surgeons look like they spend no time at work.

The bottom line is this. They can keep cutting physician salaries, and then they can make medical school a direct entry path from high school like every other country in the world. Maybe if they cut a bit more, they'll pay for your schooling too.

Yup.

I can't believe medical students are that naive. "Oh, sure, I'll just waltz on into consulting land, you know, show 'em my MCAT score...yeah, they'll pay me lots of $$." Unreal. Those jobs are very hard to get, as Bronx pointed out, and they offer very little security and little control over one's life. Let's face it, in many medical fields, you can go anywhere and have almost unparalleled control over your life. That's still an amazing deal for "only" 250K. LOL.

 

[LADoc00]

Average salary of doctors are around 150k. Average salary of academics for higher paid fields is around 200-250k. Why all these people do med school?

If this is your mindset, do't do medicine. For even highest paid fields salaries more than 300k is not easily acievable in desirable areas. You will de disappointed.

And your argument is typical of a premed or med student who is forced to do medicine.

There is a huge obsession among med students for money. I bet no matter what you do, you can have a comfortable life. If you can not b happy by making 200 k, I guarantee that you won't be happy making 500 k.

I am saying this for the third time on this post. Do something that if they take away your money, still you have something in your hands. Satisfaction should come from inside and should not be depedent totally on external factors.

If you seek satisfaction from outside, you will be like a pathologist who jumps into radiology forum and kills himself to prove that radiology sucks, in order to overcome his inferiority complex.

Thank you Pope Francis I. Your attitude is what Socialists count on. The willing compliance and degredation of the power of physicians. Our passive submission to the government because at the end of the day we are all here because "we love humanity."

Doctors who want to live comfortably are belittled. Surgeons who drive nice cars are mocked. Docs who want to earn extra money, put something away for retirement or child's education are lambasted as greedy.

Modern society has come to despise success, not emulate it.

Meanwhile the power will follow the money. As society lowers the status of Physicians, they raise up the media types, bankers and even lowly bureaucrats above us both in terms of financial largess as well as influence.

Shark, you are the cancer within our profession. The voice that tells the younger docs to quietly accept their fate and submit to their new masters. The naive Pied Piper that will do what he is told, when he is told it.

No thanks, I will fight.

Listen to me SDN, if they "take your money" you stop them, by any and all means neccessary. Make them pay for every cent, every dime, every dollar they come for. Raise hell. Do not be a victim like Shark, a pitiful soul wailing about the goodness of society as they pillage you. History will not make you a saint, it will make you a FOOL.

 

[Deceptacon]

i think this is now appropriate.

 

[IamnotFreud]

Yup.

I can't believe medical students are that naive. "Oh, sure, I'll just waltz on into consulting land, you know, show 'em my MCAT score...yeah, they'll pay me lots of $$." Unreal. Those jobs are very hard to get, as Bronx pointed out, and they offer very little security and little control over one's life. Let's face it, in many medical fields, you can go anywhere and have almost unparalleled control over your life. That's still an amazing deal for "only" 250K. LOL.

I think you are way off. Most of my family and family friends are not in medicine. Most are in engineering and/or business, most (except my spouse), stopped at a bachelor's in one of the mentioned fields. Most are making 6 figs. Will they make 300-400k? Likely not, but they make 100-mid 100's, were done by about 22/23, and have never had to think about another test, evaluation, or any lawsuits, liability, etc. This idea that only medicine pays any decent $ is silly. Lots and lots of jobs out there start at decent salaries, and if you are smart and work hard you can make some decent $$. MCAT has nothing to do with anything. Go take a look at some of the jobs out there and what they pay. You will be surprised. Money is definitely not everything, but this constant chipping away at salaries is troublesome to say the least.

 

[deleted116380]

I think you are way off. Most of my family and family friends are not in medicine. Most are in engineering and/or business, most (except my spouse), stopped at a bachelor's in one of the mentioned fields. Most are making 6 figs. Will they make 300-400k? Likely not, but they make 100-mid 100's, were done by about 22/23, and have never had to think about another test, evaluation, or any lawsuits, liability, etc. This idea that only medicine pays any decent $ is silly. Lots and lots of jobs out there start at decent salaries, and if you are smart and work hard you can make some decent $$. MCAT has nothing to do with anything. Go take a look at some of the jobs out there and what they pay. You will be surprised. Money is definitely not everything, but this constant chipping away at salaries is troublesome to say the least.

A $75k+/yr job that doesn't require any licensing exams, in-house exams, weekends, fear of being sued, etc, looks really good to me. Indentured servitude makes it kinda difficult for almost all MD graduates to pursue one of those imo.

 

[IamnotFreud]

A $75k+/yr job that doesn't require any licensing exams, in-house exams, weekends, fear of being sued, etc, looks really good to me. Indentured servitude makes it kinda difficult for almost all MD graduates to pursue one of those imo.

That is my point. This whole idea that well paying jobs are hard to come by is not correct. Many jobs, including simple ones, pay well. Even UPS drivers make an avg of 74k a year with no college degrees, postal workers make about 50k with full pension with a high school diploma, dental hygienists make 60k +, and those are basic, simple jobs. So if they keep chipping away, I think a lot of people will say oh well, let's go for the simpler job. MD grads some of them at least, are also deciding to skip residency and pursue other gigs such as consulting, healthcare management, etc. At some point, the gov needs to wake up and realize that there will truly be a shortage if they keep this up.

At least in places like Canada, the eduation is relatively cheap, lawsuits are minimal, the work week is what - 38 hours? and they get about 6 weeks of vacation. And many of them make a very decent salary. If we have the worst of both worlds you will see the best and brightest choose different paths.


For people's reading pleasure...



http://finance.yahoo.com/news/10-of-the-best-jobs-for-the-future-191256480.html

 

[deleted116380]

^^With the way my prelim program's communication is going, I wouldn't mind taking an offer for a "regular" job, lol. Took them 3 weeks since match day to email me with "paperwork" that needs to be done...except they don't mail anything out. I have to print it all out from their website and get a lot of other things done all by next Friday in their hands, which is not gonna happen.

Wish I had a regular job sometimes. This is becoming borderline not worth it. Makes me wonder why I ever quit my job in the first place...

 

[Baller MD]

Yup.

I can't believe medical students are that naive. "Oh, sure, I'll just waltz on into consulting land, you know, show 'em my MCAT score...yeah, they'll pay me lots of $$." Unreal. Those jobs are very hard to get, as Bronx pointed out, and they offer very little security and little control over one's life. Let's face it, in many medical fields, you can go anywhere and have almost unparalleled control over your life. That's still an amazing deal for "only" 250K. LOL.

This.

 

[IamnotFreud]

^^With the way my prelim program's communication is going, I wouldn't mind taking an offer for a "regular" job, lol. Took them 3 weeks since match day to email me with "paperwork" that needs to be done...except they don't mail anything out. I have to print it all out from their website and get a lot of other things done all by next Friday in their hands, which is not gonna happen.

Wish I had a regular job sometimes. This is becoming borderline not worth it. Makes me wonder why I ever quit my job in the first place...

I am going through all the paperwork too, I have spent a ton of money trying to get forms to people, agencies, calling, finding out if they got them, picking them up, to be told that certain forms are not precisely the way they are wanted and have to be redone, etc.

Exhausting! I love medicine, but things need to change.

 

[IamnotFreud]

This.

Do you feel physicians have a great deal of control over their lives? We have very limited control. We are at the mercy of Press-Gayney (sp?), patient satisfaction scores, administrators, medicare/medicaid, etc.

And feel free to read on the link regarding the 10 best job for the future.

 

[deleted116380]

I am going through all the paperwork too, I have spent a ton of money trying to get forms to people, agencies, calling, finding out if they got them, picking them up, to be told that certain forms are not precisely the way they are wanted and have to be redone, etc.

Exhausting! I love medicine, but things need to change.

I'll probably run into the same issues when I sit down Monday and start scrolling through all the non-sense. My temporary license actually requires a character reference letter...you gotta be kidding me. A background check is one thing, but that? This industry is becoming nothing more than pushing paperwork around...hard to see myself in this field 10 years from now. Will probably pull another career change 5 years after fellowship.

 

[meister]

So much whining...

 

[Silent Cool]

Do you feel physicians have a great deal of control over their lives? We have very limited control. We are at the mercy of Press-Gayney (sp?), patient satisfaction scores, administrators, medicare/medicaid, etc.

And feel free to read on the link regarding the 10 best job for the future.

Relative to other professions and careers, yes.

 

[pathstudent]

The radiology group that staffs my primary hospital take all their own night call precisely because they don't want to become commoditized. However, there must be 80 of them so it is easy to distribute the call. They control at least a dozen hospitals, provide subspecialized services, span multiple states, span multiple hospital chains, have a robust outpatient presence, and heavily involved in the medical staff at every hospital. They own their own practice and basically can not be ****ed with.

It is the model you should look for in a job.

 

[LADoc00]

The radiology group that staffs my primary hospital take all their own night call precisely because they don't want to become commoditized. However, there must be 80 of them so it is easy to distribute the call. They control at least a dozen hospitals, provide subspecialized services, span multiple states, span multiple hospital chains, have a robust outpatient presence, and heavily involved in the medical staff at every hospital. They own their own practice and basically can not be ****ed with.

It is the model you should look for in a job.

Very good. Now the next level is medical groups employing out of work ex-Navy SEAL snipers to tidy up situations as needed.

 

[FLpk1girl86]

Thank you Pope Francis I. Your attitude is what Socialists count on. The willing compliance and degredation of the power of physicians. Our passive submission to the government because at the end of the day we are all here because "we love humanity."

Doctors who want to live comfortably are belittled. Surgeons who drive nice cars are mocked. Docs who want to earn extra money, put something away for retirement or child's education are lambasted as greedy.

Modern society has come to despise success, not emulate it.

Meanwhile the power will follow the money. As society lowers the status of Physicians, they raise up the media types, bankers and even lowly bureaucrats above us both in terms of financial largess as well as influence.

Shark, you are the cancer within our profession. The voice that tells the younger docs to quietly accept their fate and submit to their new masters. The naive Pied Piper that will do what he is told, when he is told it.

No thanks, I will fight.

Listen to me SDN, if they "take your money" you stop them, by any and all means neccessary. Make them pay for every cent, every dime, every dollar they come for. Raise hell. Do not be a victim like Shark, a pitiful soul wailing about the goodness of society as they pillage you. History will not make you a saint, it will make you a FOOL.

This. We're not asking for handouts.

 

[Jumoke]

Wow...all this is depressing

 

[PalRad]

First time poster so please excuse my naïveté. Not sure how these forums work.

I'm a board-certified, fellowship-trained radiologist who has been out of training for almost 20 years. Last year, I lost my contract as the result of a local hospital bankruptcy/closure. I work occasional locums but have had no success in finding a permanent job over the past 11+ months. I have a family to support so my situation is serious.

I'm considering either (1) the military (have prior experience in Reserves) or (2) a non-clinical career in health insurance (ugh!). I would prefer private practice but no jobs seem to be available in my skill-set - even in telerad. I'm already signed up on Radworking, acr and with multiple recruiters. Can't believe how bad the job market is in our specialty. Any helpful advice would be appreciated.

 

[dude1344]

This troll isn't even putting forth any effort.

 

[cowme]

This actually isn't a very rare occurrence in radiology lately

 

[cowme]

If he's putting kids through expensive colleges, you'd be shocked at how quickly 300k can evaporate. Considering he's been out of work a year, I'd imagine the dipping into savings well is starting to dry up.

 

[Taurus]

Given these uncertain times when European countries are going bankrupt and the US is deep in debt, it's best to live below your means and save as much as you can, even if you make +300k.

 

[IJL]

If he's putting kids through expensive colleges, you'd be shocked at how quickly 300k can evaporate. Considering he's been out of work a year, I'd imagine the dipping into savings well is starting to dry up.

I think you are feeding the troll

 

[cowme]

I don't think I am. We interviewed a candidate for an attending position this year who had a great cv, but was inexplicably unemployed for 1.5 years after their group lost their contract.

These stories may sound ridiculous to a medical student, but they are absolutely true, and I have seen it with my own eyes.

 

[badasshairday]

radiology training spots need to be frozen STAT.

 

[shark2000]

I don't think I am. We interviewed a candidate for an attending position this year who had a great cv, but was inexplicably unemployed for 1.5 years after their group lost their contract.

These stories may sound ridiculous to a medical student, but they are absolutely true, and I have seen it with my own eyes.

Being unemployed for 1 or 2 years always have reasons, the same as doing 2 fellowships.

If you are willing to move or you are willing to work nights, always you can find a job. And I am not talking about moving to the middle of nowhere.

But, there are good reasons people don't do it and prefer to be unemployed for short time.

Moving to another location is not as easy as you think. Hospital credentialing takes about 6 months. Once you moved out of a competitive market, there is practically no way back. In summary, once you move from Boston or SF to midwest for a job, there is no way back. It is a one way move in tight market.

As a result, many prefer to stay a few months or doing a second fellowship, with the hope to land a job in their desirable location. And it has worked so far. I know a guy who could not find a job in our area which is considered one of the tightest markets. He did a second fellowship in Nucs. Probably he made around 120-130 k and he was not really working hard. He landed his desirable job at the end. Fellowships like chest, Nucs or body are relatively easy to get.

My point is, it is not the end of the world to do a second fellowship but land a job in your desirable location at the end. And fellows can make 120-130, which is not bad, if you think that family doctors are making 150 in competitive markets.

 

[foo]

I don't know what everybody is so worried about. In the long term, we are all toast.

See: http://singularityhub.com/2013/05/15/moshe-vardi-robots-could-put-humans-out-of-work-by-2045/

;-) ;-) ;-)

 

[vistaril]

Help me wrap my head around this...you finished training at around 32 years old, had ~20 year rads career and are now unemployed. Assuming a modest 300k salary averaged over your career, your net worth should be in excess of $5M (assuming your wife has no income and you have saved reasonably).

lmao....the *vast* majority of people who make ~300k/year for 20 years have no where 5 million dollars in net worth. That's not a comment on what is possible or what people 'should' do with their money, but just reality.

 

[xrevision]

lmao....the *vast* majority of people who make ~300k/year for 20 years have no where 5 million dollars in net worth. That's not a comment on what is possible or what people 'should' do with their money, but just reality.

+1 for truth. 300k/yr x 20 years is 6 million. Taxes and expenses alone will see to it that you lose half of that. What kind of return on investments do you need to reach your number of 5 mil?

 

[vistaril]

"(assuming your wife has no income and you have saved reasonably)"

If you want to get technical, salary does not include benefits (which are usually 100k per year) or non-patient related revenue (imaging equipment ownership, product sales, speaking engagements, etc.). Of that 100k yearly, about 40k automatically goes to 401k/403b, pension, and social security. Over 20 years, that's an automatic 800k (not even taking into account a standard growth rate, which is 6-10% for mutual funds).

The tax point is important, but given marginal rates and all of the loopholes, not as significant as people imagine. Also, I already took it into account...the average gross rads pay over the last 20 years is more like 450k+ (based on MGMA data).

So: nah, don't agree. $5M is conservative even taking into account minor bad financial decisions, no spousal income, tax, expenses (within reason), etc. Moreover, focus on the exact number is pedantic and irrelevant to the argument. The financial freedom of $3M or $5M is not markedly different.

my point was that that isn't a good assumption(and definitions will vary on what is 'reasonable' anyways).....we all know what radiologists and other high earning physicians make. We also know(to some degree) what percentage of these doctors have 5 million dollars in net worth, and far more don't(for whatever reasons...again not getting into the reasons) than do.

 

[shark2000]

The poster is clearly trolling. I have not seen any radiologist with fellowship training and 20 years of experience who is willing to work, but can not find a job and instead is looking for a non medical job. That is BS.

Stop feeding the troll.

 

[Lolscan]

Average salary of doctors are around 150k. Average salary of academics for higher paid fields is around 200-250k. Why all these people do med school?

If this is your mindset, do't do medicine. For even highest paid fields salaries more than 300k is not easily acievable in desirable areas. You will de disappointed.

And your argument is typical of a premed or med student who is forced to do medicine.

There is a huge obsession among med students for money. I bet no matter what you do, you can have a comfortable life. If you can not b happy by making 200 k, I guarantee that you won't be happy making 500 k.

I am saying this for the third time on this post. Do something that if they take away your money, still you have something in your hands. Satisfaction should come from inside and should not be dependent totally on external factors.

If you seek satisfaction from outside, you will be like a pathologist who jumps into radiology forum and kills himself to prove that radiology sucks, in order to overcome his inferiority complex.

You sound like a college freshman that just stepped out of social studies 101. Just like the same type of people who get a Ph.D in buddhism or some other selfish bull**** field and expect people to hire them. All because "they like it".

Let's get something straight. Money is just as important for a doctor as for anyone else. You need to make a living to survive. If you stay in school for 8 years then train for another 6, and come out making as much as the waiter then no one would be a doctor. Don't count on people's "good will and love of the field" to come out and save patients. It takes motivation and dedication to go through medical school and residency. Counting on people's humanism will lead to a shortage and be a disservice for the society in the end.

There is going to be a shortage of physicians in the future. If you want people to fill that gap, then you either increase their pay or have a bunch of IMGs fill it.

Case in point: In the 70s, doctors were paid equal wages as every other job in china (ie. a street sweeper or a toilet cleaner or physician had equal pay). All the educated did not go into medicine because it was "too tough". Which lead to a huge shortage and people died.

 

[emergentmd]

If you want to get technical, salary does not include benefits (which are usually 100k per year) or non-patient related revenue (imaging equipment ownership, product sales, speaking engagements, etc.). Of that 100k yearly, about 40k automatically goes to 401k/403b, pension, and social security. Over 20 years, that's an automatic 800k (not even taking into account a standard growth rate, which is 6-10% for mutual funds).

The tax point is important, but given marginal rates and all of the loopholes, not as significant as people imagine. Also, I already took it into account...the average gross rads pay over the last 20 years is more like 450k+ (based on MGMA data).

So: nah, don't agree. $5M is conservative even taking into account minor bad financial decisions, no spousal income, tax, expenses (within reason), etc. Moreover, focus on the exact number is pedantic and irrelevant to the argument. The financial freedom of $3M or $5M is not markedly different.

Are you for real? I am EM. I have avg 350k/12 yrs, get 50k/yr SEP retirement. So I take in about 400k a year. I can tell you I have nowhere near 5 mil.

The market has sucked over the past 12 yrs.

I would say I have close to 1 mil in retirement/cash, 300k in house. I have no other debt. I would be lucky if I can somehow get 4 more mil in 8 yrs. This coming from a guy coming out of residency with only 100k in debt.

350k after taxes comes out to be 250k a year. Kids, cars, house, etc and NOT much is left living a reasonably good lifestyle.

Mortgage + property tax a year 65k/yr
Car payments 10k/yr
Base living fixed expense+utilities+food+gas+home maintenence - 4k/month or 50k/yr

Just living expenses, I have 125k left a year. Vacation, charity, unexpected expenses, Kids expenses, healthcare deductibles etc takes out another 75k/yr


So I would guess I am left with 50k/yr on average.

I guess if I lived like a resident I could amass 5 mil in 20 yrs.

 

[badasshairday]

Are you for real? I am EM. I have avg 350k/12 yrs, get 50k/yr SEP retirement. So I take in about 400k a year. I can tell you I have nowhere near 5 mil.

The market has sucked over the past 12 yrs.

I would say I have close to 1 mil in retirement/cash, 300k in house. I have no other debt. I would be lucky if I can somehow get 4 more mil in 8 yrs. This coming from a guy coming out of residency with only 100k in debt.

350k after taxes comes out to be 250k a year. Kids, cars, house, etc and NOT much is left living a reasonably good lifestyle.

Mortgage + property tax a year 65k/yr
Car payments 10k/yr
Base living fixed expense+utilities+food+gas+home maintenence - 4k/month or 50k/yr

Just living expenses, I have 125k left a year. Vacation, charity, unexpected expenses, Kids expenses, healthcare deductibles etc takes out another 75k/yr


So I would guess I am left with 50k/yr on average.

I guess if I lived like a resident I could amass 5 mil in 20 yrs.

That's incredible. My wife is an ER PA and I am a resident. This past year we have amassed 50 k in savings. We are completing our first year of working after completion of school. I had just about zero dollars in my account when I finished med school and she had maybe 3-4 k in her account. I make 54k and she will have made about 80k this year.

We thought we had a huge lifestyle creep after we starting making money too!
We basically lived off of 20k a year in school combined for living expenses. So even 50k is a huge change. I can't imagine what it will be like making mid six figures.

Caveat we don't have kids. But I still think 75 to 100 k a year savings is reasonable as an attending in most fields.

 

[bronx43]

You sound like a college freshman that just stepped out of social studies 101. Just like the same type of people who get a Ph.D in buddhism or some other selfish bull**** field and expect people to hire them. All because "they like it".

Let's get something straight. Money is just as important for a doctor as for anyone else. You need to make a living to survive. If you stay in school for 8 years then train for another 6, and come out making as much as the waiter then no one would be a doctor. Don't count on people's "good will and love of the field" to come out and save patients. It takes motivation and dedication to go through medical school and residency. Counting on people's humanism will lead to a shortage and be a disservice for the society in the end.

There is going to be a shortage of physicians in the future. If you want people to fill that gap, then you either increase their pay or have a bunch of IMGs fill it.

Case in point: In the 70s, doctors were paid equal wages as every other job in china (ie. a street sweeper or a toilet cleaner or physician had equal pay). All the educated did not go into medicine because it was "too tough". Which lead to a huge shortage and people died.

lol wut?

First off, please do not use the Cultural Revolution as a "case in point" in any comparison to current day America. The sociopolitical landscape during that time was infinitely more complicated than simple opportunity cost of the medical education. In fact, society was turned on its head during those times when the educated class were sent to the countryside and the farmers were brought to the cities in the Down to the Countryside movement. How's this for a case in point? Physicians in China today make on average 50-100k RMB per year depending on your location and hospital. That's pretty much average for a middle class or lower middle class family, and guess what? College entrance scores have to be above average to be accepted into medical school.

But going back to the original point. Shark was never saying "disregard money." He is simply pointing out that in the current environment of wage equalization amongst medical and surgical specialties, your interest in a field should be more important than the current compensation, which is nothing more than a singular data point in a given moment in time.

 

[wisdom101]

I wonder if this article will spur the ACR to take any action...nah, who am I kidding?

Looks like you were right. This NY Times article is one of the few accurate accounts out there. Thank you NYT for publishing the truth about what's really happening.

 

[RadsonRads]

Looks like you were right. This NY Times article is one of the few accurate accounts out there. Thank you NYT for publishing the truth about what's really happening.

Trolling a post from almost 2 yrs ago. Good job