NY Times article on vet med profession

[pirateyoho]

Could not agree more. Problem now is the bachelor degree is the new high school diploma. I agree though, trade and apprentice training needs to be stressed and awarded more to employers. After all it produces better trained employees.

I was surprised by how many undecided/undeclared majors were in my freshman undergrad class, and how much the faculty advisers were downright encouraging it. They always fell back on the line: "Just get your gen ed requirements out of the way while you figure out what you want to do." These gen ed classes seem to be replacing the high school diploma as the mark of a basic education.

Plus, if you don't know what you want to do, how do you even know it requires a degree?!

But when you're working in admissions trying to boost the enrollment numbers and incoming money for the school, well...you definitely won't be saying that college isn't for everyone.

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[hygebeorht]

Multiquote barrage time!

Because I'm poor, m-fers!

I want that on a shirt.

Unfortunately, I think that they thought they were too hard on me in retrospect. Hence them spoiling the crap out of my leech of a younger brother, basically paying all his rent/bills/tickets/etc.....

Yeah, but they did you the bigger favor by teaching you how to fish. I envy you!

I was planning on applying more broadly next cycle, but this is making me think otherwise...

Pick a few cheapies and apply to them. Don't only apply to one...it's another year before you can try again, and if you apply to only one, they might look at you and think "yeah, we do kind of like her, but she'll be here again next year. She's not going anywhere else."

After the likelihood of me getting a residency approached zero, I started to view things a bit differently.

Why did your likelihood tank out? Don't want to hijack the convo, PM me maybe? I am interested in residency and don't know much about what it takes to be competitive.

I don't think I'll be going to CSU[...]Honestly I don't even know if I will continue in vet med. It just doesn't sound worth it. Financial security is very important to me

How much security? I agree that CSU is probably not your best choice. You'll have debt levels like the vet they profiled in the article.

Also taking out handsome life insurance policies on family members (f&$%#d up, but you know, think of the future!)

Or just take one out on yourself, so if (!) you bite it in your third year or whatever your loved ones aren't stuck with the bill.

I think we've already agreed that the financial situation for vet students sucks.

So my question is: how are all of you planning on handling the debt?

My biggest goal is to get out of vet school with <100k in debt. I have an SO who does not earn megabuxx, but we can live off his earnings. With him supporting cost of living, I am hoping to only take loans out for tuition+fees as needed. And once I'm out, we will continue to live as frugally as possible while pounding that debt for all we are worth. We can live pretty comfortably on 20k a year. Anything above that is gravy and goes straight at the loanbeast. I will tighten the belt and pay it all down with extreme prejudice...the sooner the better.

As long as my serious SO and I stay together, my career will always be the less important of the two of us as his salary will be what allows me to actually pay off my loans without IBR.

Funny, I think mine will be taking the lead and making the choices on where we live, etc. As soon as I get out of school, I'll be outearning the mister. He works for himself and his work is very flexible, so it will do fine wherever we go. I just look forward to paying those loans off and keeping him in the style to which he is accustomed!

 

[tvo21]

Wow, thanks for posting this article. It's helped me narrow down my school decision a lot . At all of the school's I interviewed, I always ask the question "What does your school offer as far as helping students gain more financial literacy and deal with their debt post grad?" I was happy to get feedback that most schools offer business courses to help students become more aware of their financial future.

I have not accrued any undergrad debt (thankfully) but that leaves me with very little knowledge on loans. (and possibly pulling 300k in loans at that)

This article is extremely eye opening and encourages me to be more proactive about my future...

 

[goldengirl90]

Don't only apply to one...it's another year before you can try again, and if you apply to only one, they might look at you and think "yeah, we do kind of like her, but she'll be here again next year. She's not going anywhere else."

Do vet schools really know how many other schools we've applied to? If what you say is true (that schools factor that into their decisions) that's very disheartening and unfair. I've thought about only applying to my in-state school due to the cost of OOS, but if that means they'll look at me and think "eh, she'll try again next year"... well, that would really suck.

 

[hygebeorht]

Do vet schools really know how many other schools we've applied to? If what you say is true (that schools factor that into their decisions) that's very disheartening and unfair. I've thought about only applying to my in-state school due to the cost of OOS, but if that means they'll look at me and think "eh, she'll try again next year"... well, that would really suck.

It's what I was told after I applied to only one my first year, and was rejected. I think that if they are on the fence about you, it might help them make their mind. If they think they may lose you to another school, they might make an offer.

But I'm not on adcoms, so take it with a grain of salt. There are affordable OOS schools out there, and also applying to a few of them is probably a good idea.

 

[goldengirl90]

It's what I was told after I applied to only one my first year, and was rejected. I think that if they are on the fence about you, it might help them make their mind. If they think they may lose you to another school, they might make an offer.

But I'm not on adcoms, so take it with a grain of salt. There are affordable OOS schools out there, and also applying to a few of them is probably a good idea.

How do they even know where all we applied? Is there a question on the application that requires you to list all the schools you've applied to?

"affordable OOS schools" -- just curious which ones you are thinking of? The only 2 I can think of are Wisconsin and Texas. None of the others would be what I consider remotely affordable...

 

[cs5910]

How do they even know where all we applied? Is there a question on the application that requires you to list all the schools you've applied to?

"affordable OOS schools" -- just curious which ones you are thinking of? The only 2 I can think of are Wisconsin and Texas. None of the others would be what I consider remotely affordable...

Yep, you have to list the schools you are applying to on the VMCAS.

 

[prevetdreamer]

How do they even know where all we applied? Is there a question on the application that requires you to list all the schools you've applied to?

"affordable OOS schools" -- just curious which ones you are thinking of? The only 2 I can think of are Wisconsin and Texas. None of the others would be what I consider remotely affordable...

and NCSU, but the OOS chances there are pretty low... Basically the ones I have a chance at are pretty much average. I don't think I could say no to Oregon anyway, so I'll at least be applying to two.

 

[ViaBea]

"affordable OOS schools" -- just curious which ones you are thinking of? The only 2 I can think of are Wisconsin and Texas. None of the others would be what I consider remotely affordable...

Mizzou isn't bad either when you factor in switching to in-state residency. Plus they take a good amount of out of state.

 

[felinelvr44]

I've been thinking about this a lot and everyone at my SA clinic yesterday was discussing this article. The practice owner's son actually goes to Ross so he was especially incensed.

My suggestion: Let's all write to the AVMA. This was one of the other vet's ideas at the practice and I think she is on to something. If everyone that has posted on this thread alone wrote a letter to the AVMA about this issue, that's about 80 letters falling onto someone's desk. And if everyone that read that times article wrote a letter telling the AVMA what they thought of this mess we're in, well, maybe they would be forced to do something about it. They are supposed to be protecting this profession, not devaluing it. And as we all know, this is a problem that affects all veterinarians, not just those of us who have recently graduated or will graduate soon. If younger vets are mired in debt for their entire lives, who will be able to buy practices from retiring vets? And if we continue to depreciate our salaries due to an oversaturated market, every practicing vet suffers. Why should a $60,000 salary be offered if there are 30 vets willing to work for $55,000? None of us are going to convince the schools to lower class sizes, tuition, or stop opening new schools but the AVMA could.

I think these letters must be in paper form too - it makes a much bigger impact than an email.

Now, can anyone find a good address to send these letters to?

 

[Lissarae06]

I've been thinking about this a lot and everyone at my SA clinic yesterday was discussing this article. The practice owner's son actually goes to Ross so he was especially incensed.

My suggestion: Let's all write to the AVMA. This was one of the other vet's ideas at the practice and I think she is on to something. If everyone that has posted on this thread alone wrote a letter to the AVMA about this issue, that's about 80 letters falling onto someone's desk. And if everyone that read that times article wrote a letter telling the AVMA what they thought of this mess we're in, well, maybe they would be forced to do something about it. They are supposed to be protecting this profession, not devaluing it. And as we all know, this is a problem that affects all veterinarians, not just those of us who have recently graduated or will graduate soon. If younger vets are mired in debt for their entire lives, who will be able to buy practices from retiring vets? And if we continue to depreciate our salaries due to an oversaturated market, every practicing vet suffers. Why should a $60,000 salary be offered if there are 30 vets willing to work for $55,000? None of us are going to convince the schools to lower class sizes, tuition, or stop opening new schools but the AVMA could.

I think these letters must be in paper form too - it makes a much bigger impact than an email.

Now, can anyone find a good address to send these letters to?

Some VINers tried contacting the AVMA with their concerns and they were told that basically there was nothing they could do. IIRC, an AVMA officer replied on the VIN thread about abandoning new grads and when people asked follow up questions, they didn't respond back. I'm not trying to tell you not to write in, just that I don't think the AVMA will do anything.

 

[Elliott Garber]

I wish that the author of the article had acknowledged that he was only discussing the job market and prospects for one part of the veterinary profession --- the general private practice clinicians among us. Admittedly, that is the largest subset within our profession, but there are many thousands of veterinarians in the U.S. and around the world who are not working in this setting and to whom some of this article would not apply. He also doesn't talk about several other loan repayment programs that currently exist for various types of government service: military, public health, rural "needy" areas, etc.

Both of the recent reports on the veterinary profession have come to this same conclusion: the market is currently fairly well saturated in private clinical practice, but prospects are still very good with lots of future growth for pretty much every other type of veterinarian. The journal Nature did a news piece reporting on this a few months ago, which you can find here.

Elliott Garber, DVM, MPH, MS
http://www.elliottgarber.com

 

[felinelvr44]

Some VINers tried contacting the AVMA with their concerns and they were told that basically there was nothing they could do. IIRC, an AVMA officer replied on the VIN thread about abandoning new grads and when people asked follow up questions, they didn't respond back. I'm not trying to tell you not to write in, just that I don't think the AVMA will do anything.

I highly doubt they will too but it will at least make me feel like I'm trying to do something rather than just sit at my computer wringing my hands (which is what I'm currently doing). This is also why I think a paper letter would have a larger impact.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I wish that the author of the article had acknowledged that he was only discussing the job market and prospects for one part of the veterinary profession --- the general private practice clinicians among us. Admittedly, that is the largest subset within our profession, but there are many thousands of veterinarians in the U.S. and around the world who are not working in this setting and to whom some of this article would not apply. He also doesn't talk about several other loan repayment programs that currently exist for various types of government service: military, public health, rural "needy" areas, etc.

Both of the recent reports on the veterinary profession have come to this same conclusion: the market is currently fairly well saturated in private clinical practice, but prospects are still very good with lots of future growth for pretty much every other type of veterinarian. The journal Nature did a news piece reporting on this a few months ago, which you can find here.

1) Those loan repayment programs are few and far between and often don't cover the whole amount unless we're talking military.

2) Most of the jobs you speak of require an additional PhD, or MPH, or postdoctoral research or public health experience. For many of us this may not be feasible financially or time-wise.

3) Again, jobs in that sector are not going "unfulfilled" - they are not there. There are indeed jobs for people with long resumes (Directors of programs and so forth), but they are not hiring very many entry level positions for new grads.

4) if prospects are so good, why are all of my colleagues (both DVM/PhDs and path people) having such trouble finding jobs within said government, academia (especially academia!) and industry? Why are they having to continue hiding out in school, doing postdoc after postdoc? Why are lab animal veterinarians, pathologists, and other "non-mainstream" vets having such awful prospects right now?

I'm glad you seem to have made a very interesting career for yourself with all your international work. And I'm glad you stand up for the less-traveled path. But you are the exception, not the rule. I have been in the job market for the last year desperately trying to get a job that would not require additional PhD, MPH, whatever, and they are not nearly as ubiquitous as you seem to think.

I finally ended up resigned to the fact that I'll need an additional degree if I want to get into non-general practitioner work that isn't military

That Nature article is no better than all the AVMA's trumpeting about how the general practice job market is growing and awesome. Basing job prospects on "research council findings" instead of on the actual struggles of people IN the current market just gives people rose-colored glasses.

 

[CanHardlyWait]

I've never considered it as the difference for me between meager living as a vet vs. a lifetime of menial labor at minimum wage.

Maybe in some peoples eyes that makes me a brat. But again... just a matter of perspective.

I agree, but do you really think you'd be choosing only between a minimum wage job and being a veterinarian?
.

Just for me, yeah, it was that likelihood exactly. I made just slightly more than minimum wage as an non college educated adult before beginning college. Again, my situation was/is rather unique. My prospects were pretty dim before I decided to pursue vet med and the difficulties I've encountered during were only really surmountable because of the end goal that I have, being a vet. Obviously I have the intellectual capacity to have pursued other things, but I lacked the drive and motivation. Really, it's a long story but I stand by what I said completely.
And Minnerbelle, I would never say you're a brat. I might just envy your upbringing

 

[StartingoverVet]

1) Those loan repayment programs are few and far between and often don't cover the whole amount unless we're talking military.

2) Most of the jobs you speak of require an additional PhD, or MPH, or postdoctoral research or public health experience. For many of us this may not be feasible financially or time-wise.

3) Again, jobs in that sector are not going "unfulfilled" - they are not there. There are indeed jobs for people with long resumes (Directors of programs and so forth), but they are not hiring very many entry level positions for new grads.

4) if prospects are so good, why are all of my colleagues (both DVM/PhDs and path people) having such trouble finding jobs within said government, academia (especially academia!) and industry? Why are they having to continue hiding out in school, doing postdoc after postdoc? Why are lab animal veterinarians, pathologists, and other "non-mainstream" vets having such awful prospects right now?

I'm glad you seem to have made a very interesting career for yourself with all your international work. And I'm glad you stand up for the less-traveled path. But you are the exception, not the rule. I have been in the job market for the last year desperately trying to get a job that would not require additional PhD, MPH, whatever, and they are not nearly as ubiquitous as you seem to think.

I finally ended up resigned to the fact that I'll need an additional degree if I want to get into non-general practitioner work that isn't military

That Nature article is no better than all the AVMA's trumpeting about how the general practice job market is growing and awesome. Basing job prospects on "research council findings" instead of on the actual struggles of people IN the current market just gives people rose-colored glasses.

Thanks for saying this. Saved me the trouble.

That is the kind of post that does a disservice to those trying to enact change. Sure, there are always some who are doing well, that doesn't stop us from trying to improve the industry as a whole. No one is saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to be successful as a VMD/DVM, but we need to improve the overall outlook.

2 sayings from me trading days seem apropros:
1) A rising tide lifts all boats.
2) Don't confuse brains with a bull market.

Unfortunately, they both applied to vet med 5-10 years ago, but no longer do.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Thanks for saying this. Saved me the trouble.

That is the kind of post that does a disservice to those trying to enact change. Sure, there are always some who are doing well, that doesn't stop us from trying to improve the industry as a whole. No one is saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to be successful as a VMD/DVM, but we need to improve the overall outlook.

2 sayings from me trading days seem apropros:
1) A rising tide lifts all boats.
2) Don't confuse brains with a bull market.

Unfortunately, they both applied to vet med 5-10 years ago, but no longer do.

Exactly. I know I can sometimes be doom and gloomy, but I do think there are opportunities for change. First off, all this increasing class sizes needs to stop, at least for now. It is nothing but money-grubbing. Academia needs to stop essentially requiring PhDs or other postdoctoral work for veterinarians and specialty veterinarians to teach/work at teaching hospitals (which is seriously going to affect our future teaching pool - again, it seems they are more concerned with people who can bring in grant money than clinicians), etc.

 

[runswithdogs]

Because of the crippling debt and the saturated job market, I wonder how this issue is going to affect pet healthcare. I speak to SA care as this seems to be the scope of the article but also the sector that a great deal of graduates seek to find employment. If the cost of the education continues to rise as well as enrollment numbers with no prospect of change to either of these factors from the AVMA, will this result in significant increase in cost of care for pets? I work in an emergency clinic where naturally the prices run a little higher but it is a constant struggle to balance adequate treatment with the financial burden it places on a client (and I'm not referring to people that are barely making ends meet, these are very middle class Americans that cannot justify spending 2k on a pet when they have future education costs looming for their children/house payments/human healthcare costs/etc.). I'm not very business savvy, so my question is if the debt that veterinarians are paying off from schools is going to cause healthcare prices to rise, or if the saturation of vets in the job market will lead to a significant decline in costs (and subsequently salary)? Either way, it's certainly concerning and I don't see where the answer lies, it seems like a vicious feedback loop.

 

[dvmdreamer]

ILet's all write to the AVMA. This was one of the other vet's ideas at the practice and I think she is on to something. If everyone that has posted on this thread alone wrote a letter to the AVMA about this issue, that's about 80 letters falling onto someone's desk. And if everyone that read that times article wrote a letter telling the AVMA what they thought of this mess we're in, well, maybe they would be forced to do something about it.

I don't claim to be any expert on the subject, as a preface. But I was under the impression the mess we're in stems from the mess they're in. That the increasing class sizes actually isn't so much being done because they say there is an increase in demand, but because funding from state and federal sources to vet schools have been cut. This leaves vet schools to make up for the deficit with a blend of raising tuition and increasing class size to keep the programs afloat. Which then feeds into the cycle discussed, off too many vets= lower salaries and increased debt. And then the additional federal student loan changes that have previously been mentioned such as the end of subsudization of federal loans compound it. I think its the federal government that needs those letters, with direct emphasis on what veterinarians' roles in food supply, public health, and research are.

I found the public comments on the article to be very disheartening, as they illustrated that everyone views us as taking care of puppies and trying to score all the money we can. No one emphasizes the importance of this field on the health and safety of the country. And that means we are disposable in their eyes.

ETA: I don't see why the AVMA is thinking of accrediting more schools though, or how that helps anyone. So maybe they do need some letters about that

 

[StartingoverVet]

I don't claim to be any expert on the subject, as a preface. But I was under the impression the mess we're in stems from the mess they're in. That the increasing class sizes actually isn't so much being done because they say there is an increase in demand, but because funding from state and federal sources to vet schools have been cut. This leaves vet schools to make up for the deficit with a blend of raising tuition and increasing class size to keep the programs afloat. Which then feeds into the cycle discussed, off too many vets= lower salaries and increased debt. And then the additional federal student loan changes that have previously been mentioned such as the end of subsudization of federal loans compound it. I think its the federal government that needs those letters, with direct emphasis on what veterinarians' roles in food supply, public health, and research are.

I found the public comments on the article to be very disheartening, as they illustrated that everyone views us as taking care of puppies and trying to score all the money we can. No one emphasizes the importance of this field on the health and safety of the country. And that means we are disposable in their eyes.

ETA: I don't see why the AVMA is thinking of accrediting more schools though, or how that helps anyone. So maybe they do need some letters about that

Just having this discussion on FB....

The glut of vets in the market is actually really good for corporate practices, that need to consolidate anyway.

They get cheap labor and can keep prices down, and profits steady.....

Rising debt is not going to make salaries go up. Only a change in the supply of vets (# schools/students) or growth in the industry...

Also we are reaching a relatively elastic part of the demand curve for vet services... continued increases in price generally are leading to less revenue as people just dont' treat/euthanize/abandon animals. So there is some limit to how much salaries can increase.

 

[felinelvr44]

I don't claim to be any expert on the subject, as a preface. But I was under the impression the mess we're in stems from the mess they're in. That the increasing class sizes actually isn't so much being done because they say there is an increase in demand, but because funding from state and federal sources to vet schools have been cut. This leaves vet schools to make up for the deficit with a blend of raising tuition and increasing class size to keep the programs afloat. Which then feeds into the cycle discussed, off too many vets= lower salaries and increased debt. And then the additional federal student loan changes that have previously been mentioned such as the end of subsudization of federal loans compound it. I think its the federal government that needs those letters, with direct emphasis on what veterinarians' roles in food supply, public health, and research are.

I found the public comments on the article to be very disheartening, as they illustrated that everyone views us as taking care of puppies and trying to score all the money we can. No one emphasizes the importance of this field on the health and safety of the country. And that means we are disposable in their eyes.

ETA: I don't see why the AVMA is thinking of accrediting more schools though, or how that helps anyone. So maybe they do need some letters about that

I agree, the comments on that article are very, very discouraging.

Does the AVMA have no lobbying function? Perhaps I am not understanding their entire role role but I feel they should be advocating for the profession as a whole, not just corporate practices and not sticking their head in the sand and saying that everything is fine. Since government funding has been cut they should be lobbying for more funding. Maybe I'm just looking for someone to blame here but there has to be some answer. It's easy to pick on the AVMA when they say stuff like this:

"There is no simple solution to the problem of sinking salaries and rising debt, nor to the market saturation of vets, Dr. Aspros says. Tuition is expected to keep going up, class sizes are expected to grow and if new vet schools are built to the proper specifications, they will get the veterinary medical association’s seal of approval."

Really, Dr. Aspros? The AVMA can do nothing to help the market saturation of vets... except to accredit four new vet schools. That to me is a complete disregard for the reality of the situation and we are the ones that suffer because of it.

 

[WelshCob]

Another comment on something mentioned about the building of new US vet schools.

Why? does New York need ANOTHER school, why does Tennessee need ANOTHER vet school and Arizona NEEDS TWO?!?!?!?!?!

Who they hell thought that out. If you are going to build new ones AT LEAST distribute then through the states that dont have one?!?!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Agreed. Unfortunately, the AVMA cant tell anyone not to build a school.

The AVMA is pretty toothless in this entire thing, actually. Even the AVMA Pac They can stand up and whine all they want (heck, I'd even appreciate a little bit of whining as opposed to just going along with everything), but they have very little actual power.

I plan on canceling my membership as soon as I am able. I don't need to pay them $300 a year (and a suggested extra donation of $100? Hah!) for a sticker on my door and a crappy journal, just to have them continue to ignore this problem. They are going to way of the AMA, which is held in pretty low regard in physician circles. Almost 75-80% of doctors say it does not represent their views/concerns and membership is abysmal (under 20% of physicians last time I checked).

There are about 100,000 give or take vets working in the US, and the AVMA claims to have 82,000 vets as members. Maybe if their membership starts to plummet they'll take notice.

 

[DVMDream]

Another comment on something mentioned about the building of new US vet schools.

Why? does New York need ANOTHER school, why does Tennessee need ANOTHER vet school and Arizona NEEDS TWO?!?!?!?!?!

Who they hell thought that out. If you are going to build new ones AT LEAST distribute then through the states that dont have one?!?!

Did I miss something??? I am pretty sure that Arizona has no vet schools currently and only Midwestern is anywhere near to opening one in AZ, which I think is completely dumb.

 

[dyachei]

I agree, the comments on that article are very, very discouraging.

Does the AVMA have no lobbying function? Perhaps I am not understanding their entire role role but I feel they should be advocating for the profession as a whole, not just corporate practices and not sticking their head in the sand and saying that everything is fine. Since government funding has been cut they should be lobbying for more funding. Maybe I'm just looking for someone to blame here but there has to be some answer. It's easy to pick on the AVMA when they say stuff like this:

"There is no simple solution to the problem of sinking salaries and rising debt, nor to the market saturation of vets, Dr. Aspros says. Tuition is expected to keep going up, class sizes are expected to grow and if new vet schools are built to the proper specifications, they will get the veterinary medical association’s seal of approval."

Really, Dr. Aspros? The AVMA can do nothing to help the market saturation of vets... except to accredit four new vet schools. That to me is a complete disregard for the reality of the situation and we are the ones that suffer because of it.

I'm fairly certain that they tried to limit accreditation and met severe backlash on their tactics by the large corporations that stand to gain. There were lawsuits, if I recall correctly

 

[WelshCob]

Did I miss something??? I am pretty sure that Arizona has no vet schools currently and only Midwestern is anywhere near to opening one in AZ, which I think is completely dumb.

The aritcle states that there are new US vet schools slated for construction.

1 in NY
1 in Tenn
2 in Arizona

I mean one in Arizona is fine but WTF? Two?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm fairly certain that they tried to limit accreditation and met severe backlash on their tactics by the large corporations that stand to gain. There were lawsuits, if I recall correctly

Yep, with Western, I believe. The AVMA didn't want to accredit them because they didn't have a teaching hospital.

 

[felinelvr44]

I'm fairly certain that they tried to limit accreditation and met severe backlash on their tactics by the large corporations that stand to gain. There were lawsuits, if I recall correctly

Blergh. That is depressing.

 

[503372]

The aritcle states that there are new US vet schools slated for construction.

1 in NY
1 in Tenn
2 in Arizona

I mean one in Arizona is fine but WTF? Two?

This kind of reminds me of the casino bill in Massachusetts. Instead of approving and building just one casino to see how it impacts the commonwealth, they approved three.

 

[DVMDream]

The aritcle states that there are new US vet schools slated for construction.

1 in NY
1 in Tenn
2 in Arizona

I mean one in Arizona is fine but WTF? Two?

One of the two in AZ has been "in planning" for umm... a very long time.... so wouldn't worry too much about that one.

The other one (at Midwestern University) is supposed to be accepting students starting in 2014.... I still think a vet school in that location is the worst decision ever and know of some people that I went to school with that decided to intentionally wait until this school opens...

 

[macita183]

So what do you all think about getting a MPH along with a DVM? When I interviewed this cycle this was brought up as was the concept of One Health. As a future Class of 2017er do you current vet students/veterinarians think this is something that could be beneficial to finding a decent job after graduation, rather than just having a DVM? Obviously it would be more time and money so I'm curious to see what your thoughts are.

 

[dovelover]

So what do you all think about getting a MPH along with a DVM? When I interviewed this cycle this was brought up as was the concept of One Health. As a future Class of 2017er do you current vet students/veterinarians think this is something that could be beneficial to finding a decent job after graduation, rather than just having a DVM? Obviously it would be more time and money so I'm curious to see what your thoughts are.

I'm applying for a MPH dual degree program right now... but the extra $25,000 price tag is making me a bit hesitant. Thankfully my parents just told me last week that I have old savings bonds from my grandparents that will cover most of that, so my total debt will only be a few thousand more than I originally anticipated when I was just thinking of vet school. But I wouldn't get an MPH just because it sounds like a good way to improve your job prospects. Get one because you really like public health. I've been interested in public health for a long time, second only to my interest in vet med, so it's sensible for me to do the dual degree.

 

[jestry]

Wow this is depressing. So current vet students, I know the job market is crappy all around, but as an entering freshman, what should I focus on to make myself the most marketable?

 

[hygebeorht]

We're all really focused on the tuition/salary, supply/demand issues, but for me one of the most disturbing bits that the article included almost in passing is the increasing disparity between the compensation of male and female veterinarians.

Aside from feeling enraged at the injustice of the patriarchal world we live in, I find myself wondering why? Why are female vets less valued and underpaid (or the flip side, male vets are more valued and overpaid)? It makes me furious that I can bust my a** and outperform nearly all of my male peers, but they're still likely to outearn me.

And it's such a shame, since the starting pay gap was almost equitable just a few years ago. I was feeling proud of the profession, but now it seems we are in a race to the stone age.

(And Elliot G., I know you're trying to cheer everyone up and tell us all is not lost, but I think you are confusing your personal success - which is always a mix of smarts, drive, privilege, and luck - with a rosy market for vets. Not everyone is going to be a wild success, no matter how hard they work and how smart their choices is. Unfortunately, there are a lot of factors that we cannot control.)

 

[cowgirla]

Agreed. Unfortunately, the AVMA cant tell anyone not to build a school.

The AVMA is pretty toothless in this entire thing, actually. Even the AVMA Pac They can stand up and whine all they want (heck, I'd even appreciate a little bit of whining as opposed to just going along with everything), but they have very little actual power.

I plan on canceling my membership as soon as I am able. I don't need to pay them $300 a year (and a suggested extra donation of $100? Hah!) for a sticker on my door and a crappy journal, just to have them continue to ignore this problem. They are going to way of the AMA, which is held in pretty low regard in physician circles. Almost 75-80% of doctors say it does not represent their views/concerns and membership is abysmal (under 20% of physicians last time I checked).

There are about 100,000 give or take vets working in the US, and the AVMA claims to have 82,000 vets as members. Maybe if their membership starts to plummet they'll take notice.

especially with the loss of AVMA health insurance, I think membership is going to take a hugeeee hit come 2014. the insurance was the main reason I joined and many vets have expressed the same sentiment.

 

[StartingoverVet]

he increasing disparity between the compensation of male and female veterinarians.

)

See, that doesn't bother me at all (and not just because of my gender)..

Snapshot numbers like that are really useless in evaluating just about anything.

You really need to compare male and female vets doing the same jobs. And I highly doubt there is much of a disparity there.

Choices make a large difference in salary, and I would like to see what those choices are.. I could easily see more women opting for internships over jobs straight out of school skewing those numbers, or any of a number of factors, not to mention just dispersion of perhaps a particularly outlier datapoint.

It is POSSIBLE that there is a disparity, but a random quote of a number like that adds NOTHING to the conversation.

 

[WelshCob]

We're all really focused on the tuition/salary, supply/demand issues, but for me one of the most disturbing bits that the article included almost in passing is the increasing disparity between the compensation of male and female veterinarians.

Aside from feeling enraged at the injustice of the patriarchal world we live in, I find myself wondering why? Why are female vets less valued and underpaid (or the flip side, male vets are more valued and overpaid)? It makes me furious that I can bust my a** and outperform nearly all of my male peers, but they're still likely to outearn me.

And it's such a shame, since the starting pay gap was almost equitable just a few years ago. I was feeling proud of the profession, but now it seems we are in a race to the stone age.

I think this is a bit skewed. So the ratio has been every increasing of females to males where it used to be much higher males to females. This means many of the older veterinarians which equals more experienced are males. More experience and time in the industry equals more pay.

Since most of the older vets are male they make more.
Most of the new vets i.e. less experience are female which means the get paid less.

So I don't think they worded that right at all. What it comes down to is the simple more experience equals more pay.

So if you took all male vets and compared it to all female vets it is going to appear that our male colleagues are going to make more since more of them have higher levels of experience.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I think this is a bit skewed. So the ratio has been every increasing of females to males where it used to be much higher males to females. This means many of the older veterinarians which equals more experienced are males. More experience and time in the industry equals more pay.

Since most of the older vets are male they make more.
Most of the new vets i.e. less experience are female which means the get paid less.

So I don't think they worded that right at all. What it comes down to is the simple more experience equals more pay.

So if you took all male vets and compared it to all female vets it is going to appear that our male colleagues are going to make more since more of them have higher levels of experience.

That is a good explanation for the difference in mean salary of vets, but this article was talking about STARTING salaries, which is specifically for vets taking their first jobs. That is why internships would grossly skew the numbers (if they are even included), as they are for much lower salaries.

 

[hygebeorht]

See, that doesn't bother me at all (and not just because of my gender)..

It is POSSIBLE that there is a disparity, but a random quote of a number like that adds NOTHING to the conversation.

Damn lies and statistics, right? I'd like to see the numbers for compensation down the road, and I do not know if the figure the Times article quoted controlled for position and field. But I would be (pleasantly) surprised if there weren't a real disparity.

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dv...s-widen/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/463037

This article describes a more in-depth study that shows a pay gap. And while it's impossible to say if that gap is solely a result of prejudice, it does point out that the small difference in average hours worked does not match with the large difference in average salary.

I'm most struck by this passage from the story I linked:

Family issues were not addressed specifically in AVMA's most recent study; however, the 2005 AVMA-Pfizer study did evaluate reasons for gaps &#8212; including Richard's suggestions and others, such as the age of a practice and use of successful business strategies &#8212; and came to this conclusion:

"Women in veterinary medicine earn less than their male counterparts. Even when individuals who worked full time and had similar levels of experience were compared, the differences were dramatic," stated the executive summary of the findings.

"It is not just statistical reporting errors or differences in the population," Flanigan says.

and

"The pay gap between female and male college graduates cannot be fully accounted for by factors known to affect wages, such as experience, including work hours, training, education and personal characteristics. These unexplained gaps are evidence of discrimination, which remains a serious problem for women in the workforce," the study contends.

Also you should keep this in mind:

"What can be done about the gender pay problem? To begin with, it must be publicly recognized as a problem. Too often, both women and men dismiss the pay gap as simply a matter of different choices, but even women who make the same occupational choices that men make will not typically end up with the same earnings," says the study.

I like you, SOV, but it's rude to say that this adds nothing to the conversation. On the contrary, I think that dismissing my very real concerns about earning less over my career simply because I am female is adding nothing to the conversation.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

especially with the loss of AVMA health insurance, I think membership is going to take a hugeeee hit come 2014. the insurance was the main reason I joined and many vets have expressed the same sentiment.

I would love to see vets leave in droves. I think that is the only thing that will bang it into their heads that we are NOT happy with the situation.

 

[hygebeorht]

I would love to see vets leave in droves. I think that is the only thing that will bang it into their heads that we are NOT happy with the situation.

Yeah. I'm curious, what benefits does AVMA membership actually offer, without the health insurance anymore?

 

[Elliott Garber]

Ross University just posted a response to the NYTimes article:

http://www.rossu.edu/news/RUSVM-Responds-to-New-York-Times-Article-on-Veterinary-Education.cfm

Any current or former Ross students want to weigh in?

Of course I appreciated this particular paragraph in their response:

"Veterinarians have an extensive array of career opportunities beyond the pet care sector. RUSVM graduates have pursued careers in areas such as public health, biomedical research, food animal medicine, global animal health and food security, and the animal pharmaceutical industry. We are continually working to ensure that our students are aware of the potential career paths available to them."

And Hygebeorht, thanks for your comments. You're right that I'm trying to help people stay hopeful. I know we all can't be wild successes, but I think a lot of that is based on the way we define success for ourselves. I'm just a regular old vet in the Army still trying to figure out what I want to do with the rest of my career!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Ross University just posted a response to the NYTimes article:

http://www.rossu.edu/news/RUSVM-Responds-to-New-York-Times-Article-on-Veterinary-Education.cfm

Any current or former Ross students want to weigh in?

Of course I appreciated this particular paragraph in their response:

"Veterinarians have an extensive array of career opportunities beyond the pet care sector. RUSVM graduates have pursued careers in areas such as public health, biomedical research, food animal medicine, global animal health and food security, and the animal pharmaceutical industry. We are continually working to ensure that our students are aware of the potential career paths available to them."

And Hygebeorht, thanks for your comments. You're right that I'm trying to help people stay hopeful. I know we all can't be wild successes, but I think a lot of that is based on the way we define success for ourselves. I'm just a regular old vet in the Army still trying to figure out what I want to do with the rest of my career!

A couple selected issues with the response, just after a quick glance.....

"A 2012 student self-reported survey of recent RUSVM graduates found that the cohort’s average salary—excluding graduates in internships or seeking advanced education—was around $71,000." Self-reported surveys are NOT accurate by the very nature of being "self-reporting"

"RUSVM graduates have pursued careers in areas such as public health, biomedical research, food animal medicine, global animal health and food security, and the animal pharmaceutical industry." They do not go into how many of these graduates had to pursue additional degrees such as MPH, PhD, etc.

 

[StartingoverVet]

Damn lies and statistics, right? I'd like to see the numbers for compensation down the road, and I do not know if the figure the Times article quoted controlled for position and field. But I would be (pleasantly) surprised if there weren't a real disparity.

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dv...s-widen/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/463037

This article describes a more in-depth study that shows a pay gap. And while it's impossible to say if that gap is solely a result of prejudice, it does point out that the small difference in average hours worked does not match with the large difference in average salary.

I'm most struck by this passage from the story I linked:

Family issues were not addressed specifically in AVMA's most recent study; however, the 2005 AVMA-Pfizer study did evaluate reasons for gaps &#8212; including Richard's suggestions and others, such as the age of a practice and use of successful business strategies &#8212; and came to this conclusion:

"Women in veterinary medicine earn less than their male counterparts. Even when individuals who worked full time and had similar levels of experience were compared, the differences were dramatic," stated the executive summary of the findings.

"It is not just statistical reporting errors or differences in the population," Flanigan says.

and

"The pay gap between female and male college graduates cannot be fully accounted for by factors known to affect wages, such as experience, including work hours, training, education and personal characteristics. These unexplained gaps are evidence of discrimination, which remains a serious problem for women in the workforce," the study contends.

Also you should keep this in mind:

"What can be done about the gender pay problem? To begin with, it must be publicly recognized as a problem. Too often, both women and men dismiss the pay gap as simply a matter of different choices, but even women who make the same occupational choices that men make will not typically end up with the same earnings," says the study.

I like you, SOV, but it's rude to say that this adds nothing to the conversation. On the contrary, I think that dismissing my very real concerns about earning less over my career simply because I am female is adding nothing to the conversation.

Oh please. Get over yourself.

The OP article took a snap shot that was useless and added NOTHING TO THE CONVERSATION, unless you just like evidence that is useless.

The article you quoted has been talked about ad nauseum in the past...
The numbers there from the AVMA report are useless because they don't compare apples and apples.

Even Flanigan who argues there is still a gap after adjusting for these factors (although showing NO data), she still thinks it is not equal as :

"Although disparities in compensation still exist, they are more often the result of a woman's choice not to be 'career-focused' than the result of gender stereotypes."



Anyway, this is a different discussion than pulling a random number out of some article and arguing there is a huge problem.

BTW... i am sure there is a small bias towards men.. but even if it were 10% of starting salary... completely eliminating that and giving it to all the women out there would still add less than 1% to woman's starting salaries as there are just too few men starting out for it even to matter to women's compensation at all. Vet med is really not the place where you find huge inequities. I have seen inequity in gender pay and it is not here.

 

[justavet]

A couple points with the Ross response:

*The two-year and three-year Federal Cohort Default Rates published for RUSVM are both 0.0%.*
Right, because you can get automatic hardship forbearance for up to three years on federal loans, and PRIVATE loans aren't tracked in the federal CDR.

*Our commitment to this important component of veterinary education is exemplified by the awarding of the top prize of the Simmons Educational Fund (SEF) Business Aptitude Award to two RUSVM students (Brandon Prince, 2013; John Graham, 2011). This annual award recognizes "students who distinguish themselves by demonstrating a keen interest in and aptitude for the pursuit of business excellence in veterinary medicine."*
Both of these students were awarded that prize while Dr. Wilson, quoted in the NYT article, was still teaching there. Wonder if a Ross student will win again....

Any Rossies out there that can weigh in?

 

[hygebeorht]

And Hygebeorht, thanks for your comments. You're right that I'm trying to help people stay hopeful. I know we all can't be wild successes, but I think a lot of that is based on the way we define success for ourselves. I'm just a regular old vet in the Army still trying to figure out what I want to do with the rest of my career!

And good luck to you as you figure that out! Work in the Army sounds very interesting from what I have read. I briefly considered going that route...travel and cool cases...but I don't think it's a good fit.

There are a lot of areas that DVMs can work in besides private practice, it's true, and it's good to point that out. It's one of the reasons I think the profession is great - so many options!

 

[justavet]

SOV, I may be confused- are you arguing the NYT article just pulled some random numbers out of an article and announced a huge problem with vet pay between men and women?

Is anyone else arguing that?

That statement was made based on an analysis of the self reported starting salary of thousands of veterinary students over multiple years at multiple schools. A perfect data set, no, but the facts that are present very clearly demonstrate that starting salaries for men have not declined nearly as much for women in vet med over the past five years. When comparing self reported starting salaries just for those taking 'real job' ie excluding advanced training the genders have lost about the same amount of ground. The disparity only shows up when including the salaries of those pursuing advanced training.

Gender based pay discrimination is severe in internships.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

SOV, I may be confused- are you arguing the NYT article just pulled some random numbers out of an article and announced a huge problem with vet pay between men and women?

Is anyone else arguing that?

That statement was made based on an analysis of the self reported starting salary of thousands of veterinary students over multiple years at multiple schools. A perfect data set, no, but the facts that are present very clearly demonstrate that starting salaries for men have not declined nearly as much for women in vet med over the past five years. When comparing self reported starting salaries just for those taking 'real job' ie excluding advanced training the genders have lost about the same amount of ground. The disparity only shows up when including the salaries of those pursuing advanced training.

Gender based pay discrimination is severe in internships.

Really? Damn. I guess residency is a bit better. We all get paid the same. It is a very "set" salary.

 

[Lissarae06]

Agreed. Unfortunately, the AVMA cant tell anyone not to build a school.

The AVMA is pretty toothless in this entire thing, actually. Even the AVMA Pac They can stand up and whine all they want (heck, I'd even appreciate a little bit of whining as opposed to just going along with everything), but they have very little actual power.

I plan on canceling my membership as soon as I am able. I don't need to pay them $300 a year (and a suggested extra donation of $100? Hah!) for a sticker on my door and a crappy journal, just to have them continue to ignore this problem. They are going to way of the AMA, which is held in pretty low regard in physician circles. Almost 75-80% of doctors say it does not represent their views/concerns and membership is abysmal (under 20% of physicians last time I checked).

There are about 100,000 give or take vets working in the US, and the AVMA claims to have 82,000 vets as members. Maybe if their membership starts to plummet they'll take notice.

There are a few people at school who got mad at me because I refused to join SCAVMA. One of the "pluses" to membership they told me I would miss out on was automatic membership in the AVMA. They weren't impressed when I said that I didn't want to join the AVMA because I didn't think they represented the best interests of their membership.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

There are a few people at school who got mad at me because I refused to join SCAVMA. One of the "pluses" to membership they told me I would miss out on was automatic membership in the AVMA. They weren't impressed when I said that I didn't want to join the AVMA because I didn't think they represented the best interests of their membership.

Totally reminds me....when I was in school, I also refused to be a member of SCAVMA. I was in charge of the shelter dog/cat food distribution program through another club, and eventually they (SCAVMA) threatened to revoke my position if I didn't join. In addition, every new student-run club had to be "approved" by SCAVMA. Such a racket.

Oh, you get that automatic membership. But only for a year, I reminded them. Then it is $300/yr just like everyone else.