NY Times Healthcare Article: MUST READ

[TroubleTheCat]

What kind of a hole are you living in???!! So if we assume that everyone is paying their own health insurance premium (and taking the bus, and living in a smaller house because of it), what happens when they get sick with the flu along with their 4 kids. They should have factored in the $ it's going to cost them to buy the outrageous drugs and the doctors' visits with no insurance coverage???

I agree that people should take responsibility for their well-being by exercising and eating healthy, but there are plenty of healthy people out there that get sick with the flu, cancer, infections, etc..

People are not "so readily willing to pay for living expenses." They have to! Access to health care should be a right given to everyone, not just the middle & upper class with good jobs.

Please don't post on this forum ever again. The lack of your intelligence is hurting me

You miss the point my friend...What part of the concept of personal responsibility do you not understand? The problem with your example is that this person has 4 children but is medically uninsured!!! This is a serious problem that people do not seem to understand. It is criminal negligence (in my opinion) for people to just say: "Hey, I want to have lots of kids so lets make lots of kids" without planning ahead to figure out if they can afford to provide their kids with a good, healthy upbringing. I say if you are going to bring your kids up to live a life of poverty than don't bother having kids in the first place!! You may say this is harsh and that procreation is an individual right, but I say not when you can't pay the bills and subsequently go on welfare and make all of us responsible citizens pay for the upbrining of your children!! Having children is not doing what YOU want and what is best for YOU, but rather meeting the needs of the children and doing what is best for the children. You should sit down with your spouse and go through a checklist: Can we afford to live someplace suitable for raising a child? Can we afford to feed ourselves and a child? Can we afford to provide for our healthcare needs and those of a child (i.e. insurance)? Can we afford to provide for all of our basic needs and those of a child? Can we afford to provide for the education of our child so that he/she can be fully qualified for a good job in this competitive marketplace? If your answer to all of these questions is YES, then by all means bring a child into this world. If your answer to any of these questions is NO then do the child and society as a whole a favor and WAIT rather than bring one more person in this world that will have a high chance of living a life of hunger, poverty and crime!

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[swoop]

We should just let those people without health insurance die. Those who can pay can get really great healthcare, I am talking spa like hospitals. Plus we wouldn't need as many physicians then.

 

[sirus_virus]

We should just let those people without health insurance die. Those who can pay can get really great healthcare, I am talking spa like hospitals. Plus we wouldn't need as many physicians then.

Some single payer systems practice something like this. If you are old or have some type of terminal illness(e.g cancer), they will simply aid you to the afterlife. It is cost effective BTW.

 

[TroubleTheCat]

We should just let those people without health insurance die. Those who can pay can get really great healthcare, I am talking spa like hospitals. Plus we wouldn't need as many physicians then.

Better yet, we should just subsidize the lives of our nation's poor so that we can have a permanent, perpetual population below the poverty line that contributes nothing to society. That way we will need even more physicians and people like us will never have a problem finding a job...

 

[dynx]

Do you even know how much health insurance costs? I'm talking buying a plan on your own... when no part of your premium is paid by your employer. Say you buy a cheap not so great plan because that's all that you can afford. You're still talking like 150 dollars PER MONTH just to have the privilege of paying a 5000 dollar deductible before it even matters. I don't know about you, but I certainly don't have 5000 dollars sitting around. Frankly, if I had to buy my own health insurance, I would not be able to afford it, and I have a college degree and work for a great company. This is not just another budget item. This is a several thousand dollar a year raise, and frankly, those "higher paying jobs" you suggest are so abundant are not nearly as plentiful as you seem to think... particularly for the people you are suggesting get them.

I don't necessarily think socialized health insurance is the best idea. I do, however, think the outcry over the current state of health care and health insurance is completely justified.

-per the article:
1. This is why health care should NOT be tied to employment or you should always be allowed to purchase your employment plan for the FULL price you and the company pay when you leave the job.

2. Insurance companies should not be allowed to drop people that are expensive claims if they can't prove that it was a pre-existing condition. Thats the point of insurance damn it, WTF is wrong with these companies.

per the quote above:
then don't buy insurance. And when your ass gets sick don't bitch to me. Health care is expensive asshat. You want an MRI and life saving surgery when you get f-ed up then you have to pay for it. Nobody owes you ****. And it doesn't get cheaper when the Gov pays for it, you just shift your costs onto somone else...because you deserve it right? I'm sure your mom thinks you're special but you're not.

 

[BarrySanders]

You miss the point my friend...What part of the concept of personal responsibility do you not understand? The problem with your example is that this person has 4 children but is medically uninsured!!! This is a serious problem that people do not seem to understand. It is criminal negligence (in my opinion) for people to just say: "Hey, I want to have lots of kids so lets make lots of kids" without planning ahead to figure out if they can afford to provide their kids with a good, healthy upbringing. I say if you are going to bring your kids up to live a life of poverty than don't bother having kids in the first place!! You may say this is harsh and that procreation is an individual right, but I say not when you can't pay the bills and subsequently go on welfare and make all of us responsible citizens pay for the upbrining of your children!! Having children is not doing what YOU want and what is best for YOU, but rather meeting the needs of the children and doing what is best for the children. You should sit down with your spouse and go through a checklist: Can we afford to live someplace suitable for raising a child? Can we afford to feed ourselves and a child? Can we afford to provide for our healthcare needs and those of a child (i.e. insurance)? Can we afford to provide for all of our basic needs and those of a child? Can we afford to provide for the education of our child so that he/she can be fully qualified for a good job in this competitive marketplace? If your answer to all of these questions is YES, then by all means bring a child into this world. If your answer to any of these questions is NO then do the child and society as a whole a favor and WAIT rather than bring one more person in this world that will have a high chance of living a life of hunger, poverty and crime!

So basically you are saying only upper middle class to upper class individuals should have children? Some of you people have no clue, and if you have not been on the lower side of the social class groupings, you seriously need to invest in a sociology class and actually pay attention. Like Lizzy said the immaturity on this thread is astonishing. Regardless of whether you advocate for universal healthcare or intensely hate the idea, the above post and similar posts by the author are incredibly ridiculous and ignorant. Troublethecat were you born into an underclass, working poor, or working class family?

 

[sirus_virus]

So basically you are saying only upper middle class to upper class individuals should have children? Some of you people have no clue, and if you have not been on the lower side of the social class groupings, you seriously need to invest in a sociology class and actually pay attention. Like Lizzy said the immaturity on this thread is astonishing. Regardless of whether you advocate for universal healthcare or intensely hate the idea, the above post and similar posts by the author are incredibly ridiculous and ignorant. Troublethecat were you born into an underclass, working poor, or working class family?

So how do we take care of that woman? What are your own personal suggestions?

 

[TroubleTheCat]

So basically you are saying only upper middle class to upper class individuals should have children? Some of you people have no clue, and if you have not been on the lower side of the social class groupings, you seriously need to invest in a sociology class and actually pay attention. Like Lizzy said the immaturity on this thread is astonishing. Regardless of whether you advocate for universal healthcare or intensely hate the idea, the above post and similar posts by the author are incredibly ridiculous and ignorant. Troublethecat were you born into an underclass, working poor, or working class family?

Let's just say that my parents were responsible and they planned ahead financially before they created me (just as I advocate). Not that it matters aside from proving that I am not a hypocrite...You think that our policy-makers are not qualified to make policy decisions unless they were born into a poor family? You think that our doctors are not qualified to treat diseases unless they have diseases? You think our police forces are not qualified to enforce the law unless they broke the law and served time for it? And no, I do not need to take a Socialism class to understand what is going on in society (as a matter of fact I did choose to take a sociology class...come to find out the teacher believed in communism and socialism and our readings were limited to her ideological propaganda). And yes, I think that poor people are being CRUEL TO THEIR CHILDREN by being poor and still choosing to have children so that their children would be forced to live a life of poverty.

 

[sirus_virus]

Let's just say that my parents were responsible and they planned ahead financially before they created me (just as I advocate). Not that it matters aside from proving that I am not a hypocrite...You think that our policy-makers are not qualified to make policy decisions unless they were born into a poor family? You think that our doctors are not qualified to treat diseases unless they have diseases? You think our police forces are not qualified to enforce the law unless they broke the law and served time for it? And no, I do not need to take a Socialism class to understand what is going on in society (as a matter of fact I did choose to take a sociology class...come to find out the teacher believed in communism and socialism and our readings were limited to her ideological propaganda). And yes, I think that poor people are being CRUEL TO THEIR CHILDREN by being poor and still choosing to have children so that their children would be forced to live a life of poverty.

Interesting point. I say this because it seems to me like the poorer people get, the more kids they have. Almost like they are trying to test faith. I however disagree with your total argument that the poor are to blame for their circumstances.

 

[DoctaJay]

Some single payer systems practice something like this. If you are old or have some type of terminal illness(e.g cancer), they will simply aid you to the afterlife. It is cost effective BTW.

Yeah, I think that is how it is in England. As bad as it sounds, this is actually a great idea. You all have no idea how much money is spent "keeping" people alive. Although I would like to see my mother alive for a couple more months, is it really worth it? The single payer system would certainly have less room for patients that are certainly dying.

Although I support the single payer system. It certainly, certainly has its problems, check out the two videos below:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_Rf42zNl9U


http://www.onthefencefilms.com/vide...at=QuickTime&quality=low&width=320&height=196

 

[TroubleTheCat]

Interesting point. I say this because it seems to me like the poorer people get, the more kids they have. Almost like they are trying to test faith. I however disagree with your total argument that the poor are to blame for their circumstances.

Oh I never said that the poor are totally to blame for their circumastances. I think a lot are to blame because of bad decisions they made earlier in life (I'm sure we can all think back to the people who slept around and got pregnant in middle school or high school, dropped out of school early on, did drugs to be cool, got involved in crime to be cool, joined gangs to be cool, or more simply thought it would be cool to blow off school entirely and get a bad education setting themselves up for failure later in life). I can think back and recall lots of people who led lives such as these and I have no doubt that the vast majority of them are now living below the poverty line. I think there are a lot of people who did absolutely nothing wrong to deserve a life in poverty, other than the fact that they were born into a life of poverty (these people I am very simpathetic towards BUT I AM ABSOLUTELY NOT SIMPATHETIC TOWARDS THEIR PARENTS FOR DOING THIS TO THEM!!!!!). But the fact of the matter is that you will find that if you do enough digging into the past there are enough bad decisions that people make (either themselves or through their lineage) that lead them to the lives they live. This whole argument that society as a whole is the cause of their problems is a bunch of bull!

 

[BarrySanders]

Let's just say that my parents were responsible and they planned ahead financially before they created me (just as I advocate). Not that it matters aside from proving that I am not a hypocrite...You think that our policy-makers are not qualified to make policy decisions unless they were born into a poor family? You think that our doctors are not qualified to treat diseases unless they have diseases? You think our police forces are not qualified to enforce the law unless they broke the law and served time for it? And no, I do not need to take a Socialism class to understand what is going on in society (as a matter of fact I did choose to take a sociology class...come to find out the teacher believed in communism and socialism and our readings were limited to her ideological propaganda). And yes, I think that poor people are being CRUEL TO THEIR CHILDREN by being poor and still choosing to have children so that their children would be forced to live a life of poverty.

I'll start out by responding to Sirus's question. No I indeed do not know what to do in her situation. All I know is that everyone deserves access to quality healthcare ,ESPECIALLY children(not just in emergency situations), but I do not advocate for any system right now because I am not educated enough yet about the proposed policies. I do know, however, that the present system needs change.

Now on to my friend who did not want to answer the question of which type of family he was born into. I'm sorry that your sociology class failed you, because obviously you are on the upper side of the social class groupings and needed a good sociology class. What you should have been taught is about stratification, which is in part why you have the views you do. Stratification is an institutionalized pattern of inequality in which social statuses are ranked on the basis of their access to scare resources (material wealth, prestige, and power). Institutionalized means that the inequality is backed up by long-standing social norms about what ought to be. The inequality is also based on membership in a status (such as you being a child of white collar workers) rather than on personal attributes. This means that contrary to your belief, your actual personal attributes (intelligence, work ethic) was not the only player at work when making you who you are today. The best predictor of your eventual social class is your education, and the best predictor of your education is your parents' education. So yes maybe your parents did indeed plan ahead financially, but I am willing to bet that their financial planning was aided by the work of the parents, just as your financial planning and your education is based on your parents' work,income, and family environment. Now obviously there are wild cards that allow people to move up or down in social class rankings such as achievement motivation and intelligence; however, the social class environment in which a child grows up is the major determinant of educational attainment.

Now, of course people should have a level of personal responsiblity. But let us please not take that too far. As we have seen from my brief sociology lesson, personal responsiblity is not equal among people in different social classes. If you belong to the upper class or middle class your life chances are greater than someone growing up in a working poor or working class family. Is that to say that people in middle class families do not work hard? Absolutely not. But to look down your nose at people in lower social classes than you is ignorant because you would not know what it means to come from where they come from. Because you were Handed healthcare, financial resources, and quality education does not make you better than anyone, because you did not have to do anything for those things. Should people plan before they have children? Yes. But unfortunately things happen, and unplanned pregnancies happen in all social class groupings.

Finally, no I do not think that policy makers need to have been born into a poor family to make policies. But obviously, they and people like you are having a HARD time relating to them. Your analogy of doctors needing to have diseases to treat diseases is way off base, because obviously that is not the case. But actually, I'm willing to bet that if there were two oncologists(one who had battled through a cancer before and one who had not) the one who battled through would be more effective at reaching their patients and getting them to cooperate. And the police officer analogy is just silly because many police officers commit crimes already they just have a badge on when they do it (such as some dirty narcotics officers)...hence their nickname in some areas: COP = crooks on patrol. (And no I am not trying to bash police officers,however, the reality is that some cops are good and some cops are bad.

Anyway, the take home point: don't be so quick to judge others unless you have walked in their shoes. (Even then you shouldnt judge, but there are no morality police).

 

[BarrySanders]

Oh I never said that the poor are totally to blame for their circumastances. I think a lot are to blame because of bad decisions they made earlier in life (I'm sure we can all think back to the people who slept around and got pregnant in middle school or high school, dropped out of school early on, did drugs to be cool, got involved in crime to be cool, joined gangs to be cool, or more simply thought it would be cool to blow off school entirely and get a bad education setting themselves up for failure later in life). I can think back and recall lots of people who led lives such as these and I have no doubt that the vast majority of them are now living below the poverty line. I think there are a lot of people who did absolutely nothing wrong to deserve a life in poverty, other than the fact that they were born into a life of poverty (these people I am very simpathetic towards BUT I AM ABSOLUTELY NOT SIMPATHETIC TOWARDS THEIR PARENTS FOR DOING THIS TO THEM!!!!!). But the fact of the matter is that you will find that if you do enough digging into the past there are enough bad decisions that people make (either themselves or through their lineage) that lead them to the lives they live. This whole argument that society as a whole is the cause of their problems is a bunch of bull!

And the fact of the matter is, people in all walks of life make poor decisions. Poor people, moderate people, rich people make bad decisions in life. The difference is that their consequences are different. If someone in a lower social class grouping makes a bad life decision then they probably have dug themselves into a deeper hole. If someone from a well-off family makes a poor decision then they probably be alright because they have family to pick them back up. I have seen many students from well-off backgrounds at my small private wealthy school who make mistakes (develop terrible drug habits, drink their lives away, fail out of school,get arrested ... the list goes on... but in their end their mommies and daddies are there to support them (financially and emotionally) after their bad decision and make sure that their children's life does not go down the drain.

 

[TroubleTheCat]

I'll start out by responding to Sirus's question. No I indeed do not know what to do in her situation. All I know is that everyone deserves access to quality healthcare ,ESPECIALLY children(not just in emergency situations), but I do not advocate for any system right now because I am not educated enough yet about the proposed policies. I do know, however, that the present system needs change.

Now on to my friend who did not want to answer the question of which type of family he was born into. I'm sorry that your sociology class failed you, because obviously you are on the upper side of the social class groupings and needed a good sociology class. What you should have been taught is about stratification, which is in part why you have the views you do. Stratification is an institutionalized pattern of inequality in which social statuses are ranked on the basis of their access to scare resources (material wealth, prestige, and power). Institutionalized means that the inequality is backed up by long-standing social norms about what ought to be. The inequality is also based on membership in a status (such as you being a child of white collar workers) rather than on personal attributes. This means that contrary to your belief, your actual personal attributes (intelligence, work ethic) was not the only player at work when making you who you are today. The best predictor of your eventual social class is your education, and the best predictor of your education is your parents' education. So yes maybe your parents did indeed plan ahead financially, but I am willing to bet that their financial planning was aided by the work of the parents, just as your financial planning and your education is based on your parents' work,income, and family environment. Now obviously there are wild cards that allow people to move up or down in social class rankings such as achievement motivation and intelligence; however, the social class environment in which a child grows up is the major determinant of educational attainment.

Now, of course people should have a level of personal responsiblity. But let us please not take that too far. As we have seen from my brief sociology lesson, personal responsiblity is not equal among people in different social classes. If you belong to the upper class or middle class your life chances are greater than someone growing up in a working poor or working class family. Is that to say that people in middle class families do not work hard? Absolutely not. But to look down your nose at people in lower social classes than you is ignorant because you would not know what it means to come from where they come from. Because you were Handed healthcare, financial resources, and quality education does not make you better than anyone, because you did not have to do anything for those things. Should people plan before they have children? Yes. But unfortunately things happen, and unplanned pregnancies happen in all social class groupings.

Finally, no I do not think that policy makers need to have been born into a poor family to make policies. But obviously, they and people like you are having a HARD time relating to them. Your analogy of doctors needing to have diseases to treat diseases is way off base, because obviously that is not the case. But actually, I'm willing to bet that if there were two oncologists(one who had battled through a cancer before and one who had not) the one who battled through would be more effective at reaching their patients and getting them to cooperate. And the police officer analogy is just silly because many police officers commit crimes already they just have a badge on when they do it (such as some dirty narcotics officers)...hence their nickname in some areas: COP = crooks on patrol. (And no I am not trying to bash police officers,however, the reality is that some cops are good and some cops are bad.

Anyway, the take home point: don't be so quick to judge others unless you have walked in their shoes. (Even then you shouldnt judge, but there are no morality police).

It is ironic that you tell me not to be so quick to judge others, and yet you assume that I come from a white-collar family. All I have to say that is: "Ha!!!" You assume I was just given a great education. All I have to say to that is: "Ha!!!" The problem with your little sociology lesson is that it is far from reality. What you actually find is that the vast majority of families in this country work their way up from the lower classes that their ancestors were a part of. I don't suppose you would believe that my great grandfather and great grandmother met on a plantation in a suburb of Louisiana? Well, it is absolutely true (and no they were not plantation owners, they worked out in the field...very, very lower class upbringing). Guess what my grandfather did...He volunteered to fight in WWII. His professional life was limited to his service in the armed forces (and believe me, our brave men and women who serve in the armed services are not paid much at all...not now and especially not then...unfortunately). Want to guess what my father does? He is a photographer for the automotive industry making very modest middle class wages. And of course the story ends with me going to medical school in about 4 months. So we went from very, very low class to military class (also very, very low class) to middle class to upper class. I guess I just blew apart your top-down theory of sociology...My family did not take government handouts. We sucked it up and built ourselves from the ground up. That is the way it should be done. And the vast majority of the graduates from my school system either went to community college or didn't go to college at all....so much for this great education you claim I was given.

 

[HOLDENc]

Did you read past the first paragraph of the article, Holden? She was insured when she developed cancer and it sounds like she was covered under COBRA or a similar arrangement because her coverage was running out. She was shopping for a policy that would cover her and then the cancer was diagnosed. Suddenly, she could no longer buy an affordable policy. This lady wasn't making a choice to "go bare" and then wish she had insurance after she got sick. She had a policy that she couldn't renew.

Yes, I did read the article. Thank you for acting like a child.

When you enter into COBRA you do so knowing it is a temporary arrangement. She should have secured other health insurance before leaving her previous job or not left her job in the first place. Either way she entered COBRA w/o a backup plan and we all know how that worked out for her.

Self-employed people who self-insure have this problem quite frequently: once they become sick the premiums go through the roof and they can no longer afford coverage.

Again. She made the choice to become self-employed. With that choice comes baggage.

One payer (Canadian system) is one solution but not the only one and there may be other ways to make it feasible for more Americans to get health insurance.

In my last post I gave a number of reasons why Canada's system is a disaster. You counter with "Canada is a good solution". It is clear you are not even trying to win the argument.

 

[NickRiviera]

We should just let those people without health insurance die. Those who can pay can get really great healthcare, I am talking spa like hospitals. Plus we wouldn't need as many physicians then.

Yea, who cares about lives when the bottom line is money. I think the argument you're shooting for is relating to QALY.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-adjusted_life_years

Since people clearly like to point fingers, why not look at yourself. Maybe some of the money problems are because you won't be good doctors.
http://www.acoi.org/doclib/doclib_popup.cgi?file=248-6a731b0abe508d844f40ab48c1d60242.pdf
Or maybe you will...

 

[TroubleTheCat]

Furthermore, Mr. Barry Sanders, my parents were the first in my family to earn college degrees. My oldest brother is the first to earn a master's degree. I will be the first to earn an M.D. So please tell me again where my education came from...Where did my parents' education come from? Where did my grandparents' education come from? I'd really like to know since you know so much about me and how things work...it doesn't seem like your theory accounts for the fact that future generations in my family surpassed the educational achievements of the previous generations now does it?

 

[BarrySanders]

Trouble I said in my post that Obviously people can and Do move up in social class groupings. If that was not the case then I would not be in college about to matriculate into medical school. I'm glad that your family has been strong enough to move up in social standings. But that does not change the fact that Your parents were college educated and middle class and that provided You with opportunities that others do not have. I said that this doesn't mean that people in middle class families don't work hard. Obviously you worked hard to be the first one in your family to earn an M.D. But You alone did not work towards that degree. There were other factors involved, such as you being born into a family (parents) who are middle class and college educated. Your parents were college educated and thus it was expected of You to do the same and I am willing to bet that you had an environment that supported your educational endeavors. I know it is threatening to think that your hard work did not have Everything to do with your present success, but it is the reality. What you describe as "modest middle class wages is still significantly more than people who make "modest" working class, and working poor wages. The majority of this country have NOT worked their way up from the lower classes that their ancestors were apart of, the dynamics of economics have simply changed. Please look up and post stats to back up your claim. I'm glad that your ancestors and family generations have worked their way up, but that does not negate the fact that You have benefited from Their work. They worked their way up, You had a boost. It is ok to have pride in what your family has accomplished, but do not be naive and think that Your hard work is the same as your grandfather's hard work.

 

[TroubleTheCat]

Trouble I said in my post that Obviously people can and Do move up in social class groupings. If that was not the case then I would not be in college about to matriculate into medical school. I'm glad that your family has been strong enough to move up in social standings. But that does not change the fact that Your parents were college educated and middle class and that provided You with opportunities that others do not have. I said that this doesn't mean that people in middle class families don't work hard. Obviously you worked hard to be the first one in your family to earn an M.D. But You alone did not work towards that degree. There were other factors involved, such as you being born into a family (parents) who are middle class and college educated. Your parents were college educated and thus it was expected of You to do the same and I am willing to bet that you had an environment that supported your educational endeavors. I know it is threatening to think that your hard work did not have Everything to do with your present success, but it is the reality. What you describe as "modest middle class wages is still significantly more than people who make "modest" working class, and working poor wages. The majority of this country have NOT worked their way up from the lower classes that their ancestors were apart of, the dynamics of economics have simply changed. Please look up and post stats to back up your claim. I'm glad that your ancestors and family generations have worked their way up, but that does not negate the fact that You have benefited from Their work. They worked their way up, You had a boost. It is ok to have pride in what your family has accomplished, but do not be naive and think that Your hard work is the same as your grandfather's hard work.

Yes my parents are college educated, but in order for your theory to be true then my grandparents must have been college educated (but they were not!) otherwise where would my parents' educational background come from? You are just another player in the game of class warfare. You think that we should all feel so priveleged to have what we have because you think that we did not earn it. I feel proud because my family worked hard and made GOOD CHOICES in life...that is not something to be ashamed of just because there are people out there who have less. The fact of the matter is that the hard work ethic and sound judgement is what gets passed down from generation to generation. My grandfather was never given an inheritance when his father died and my father was never given an inheritance when his father died. I too will most likely not get an inheritance. So I am not priveledged in that sense. Ever since third grade I have been self-motivated to teach myself independently from the help of my parents because they too wanted me to be self-reliant and so they instilled in me the value of hard work and independence. Sure my parents assisted me when assistance was needed educationally up until that point, but you and I know that this assistance at face value would do nothing for me on its own today. I am where I am today largely because of who I am and my core values built on a solid foundation of GOOD DECISIONS which is the whole point I have been making all along. It is not that I was given a leg up because of my family's financial background (no advantage there) or my family's educational background (again, no impressive history there). Rather it is the simple fact that I understand right from wrong, I make GOOD DECISIONS in life, and I plan ahead. We are all better off for rewarding those who have these core values and make good decisions, rather than rewarding those who do not.

So take your entitlement programs and your socialism and leave them in Canada and Europe where they belong.

 

[natygan22]

Not at all.

I encourage everyone to do what they want !BUT! I think everyone should recognize the baggage associated w/ certain professions.

I always wanted to become a White Water Rafting Guide but I don't want to die. Instead of calling up the NY Times and whining about society not taking care of me, I chose a different profession.

Trust me, if no one was willing to be a real estate agent b/c there was no healthcare insurance provided, the big firms (Century 21, Remax, Coldwell Banker, etc) would soon nut up and provide health insurance for the agents b/c they need workers or else they don't make money. The problem is many current agents, like Ms. Readling, see the 60K and take the job w/o thinking twice. The **** hits the fan when they come down w/ a nasty case of cancer and suddenly she wants society to help her get out of the big mess she is in.

First off I'd like to note how interesting this discussion has been.

Secondly, I hope to God I don't ever have to go to the same school as HOLDENc b/c he sounds like a dick.

I work a job that doesn't pay amazingly but I get great health insurance! I don't pay a single monthly fee and there is no deductable. I enjoy this luxury but I also enjoy seeing my friends, family, neighbors, and even strangers live happy healthy lives! This joy is similar to that in which you might find by donating money to a charity, volunteering your time at some place like Hospice, or cooking food at your local soup kitchen. People engage in these activities (myself included) b/c they would hope that if they were on the other side of the situation someone would lend them a helping hand to. You say that " you are tired of footing the bill b/c of their lack of foresight." I take it that you, like myself, are not in need of assistance from the government or any other agency. That's great you've been successfull but I think there is a way that all our citizens can enjoy the benefits of health care without making you go bankrupt. Altruism is a human trait that you seem to be lacking. This is unfortunate b/c you are preventing the progression to a world in which more people are happy.

 

[HOLDENc]

I hope to God I don't ever have to go to the same school as HOLDENc b/c he sounds like a dick.

I didn't know Socialists had a medical school?

That's great you've been successfull but I think there is a way that all our citizens can enjoy the benefits of health care without making you go bankrupt.

Uhhhh...and that plan is...?

Altruism is a human trait that you seem to be lacking. This is unfortunate b/c you are preventing the progression to a world in which more people are happy.

Wow. You haven't made a single argument. You've participated in character assasination and given up on the debate in the process. You believe in Utopia yet you have no plan on how to get there. I am a realist, I know a society of "mandatory volunteering" which you are in favor of, and universal healthcare are not feasible options.