NYMC - Ridiculous and Unfair Treatment of Applicants

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MK66

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Hello,

I have just received an email from NYMC stating the following:

"Your evaluations from __ and ___ do not fulfill our science evaluation requirements. In order to complete your application, please have
science letters overnighted to our office. Science evaluations are classified on your AMCAS application as biology, chemistry, physics, or mathematics courses. Non-science evaluations are all other courses."

My references are from engineering professors who taught me courses in thermodynamics and mass transfer to name 2 of the courses they taught me (one was also my final year research project supervisor in biomaterials). THIS IS RIDICULOUS! I plan to call them and give them a piece of my mind. Does this mean that no engineers can apply to this program? I also have a masters degree in engineering. I mean, this is absurd. In essence they are saying that my engineering (also known as applied sciences) courses are "non-science" courses. I'm outraged and will demand a refund if they choose to so discriminate their selection process. Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Thanks,
 

ICCONFETTI

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i am an engineer. but engineering classes do not count as science :( :( :(
sucks, but it's true :(
 
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MonkeyNuts!

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I didn't count any core engineering classes as science on my AMCAS. You have to draw the line somewhere. If you are going to argue that there is chem in thermo, well you can argue that there is physics in Control Systems Design or that Calculus is needed in Advanced Fourier Analysis III.

Basic science is BCPM. Your engineering courses sound too specialized to be considered BCPM.
 

theDOCTORINATOR

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Hello,

I have just received an email from NYMC stating the following:

"Your evaluations from __ and ___ do not fulfill our science evaluation requirements. In order to complete your application, please have
science letters overnighted to our office. Science evaluations are classified on your AMCAS application as biology, chemistry, physics, or mathematics courses. Non-science evaluations are all other courses."

My references are from engineering professors who taught me courses in thermodynamics and mass transfer to name 2 of the courses they taught me (one was also my final year research project supervisor in biomaterials). THIS IS RIDICULOUS! I plan to call them and give them a piece of my mind. Does this mean that no engineers can apply to this program? I also have a masters degree in engineering. I mean, this is absurd. In essence they are saying that my engineering (also known as applied sciences) courses are "non-science" courses. I'm outraged and will demand a refund if they choose to so discriminate their selection process. Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Thanks,
Uhh.....not really. They required science recomendation letters not engineering class recomnedation letters. You should have know this before you applied to the school. They have rules and you didnt follow them. Stop complaining (as it is your own fault) andjust overnight the letters so your application and go on.
 

MK66

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It really doesn't make any sense. It is also not clearly stated on their website. Did anyone in this situation get their money back? I think this is absolute absurdity. Anyone know their reasoning for this kind of stupidity?
 

PugMD

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It really doesn't make any sense. It is also not clearly stated on their website. Did anyone in this situation get their money back? I think this is absolute absurdity. Anyone know their reasoning for this kind of stupidity?

Second eternalrage... you have to draw the like somewhere
 

MK66

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Uhh.....not really. They required science recomendation letters not engineering class recomnedation letters. You should have know this before you applied to the school. They have rules and you didnt follow them. Stop complaining (as it is your own fault) andjust overnight the letters so your application and go on.



I am a graduate of chemical engineering. So if I've never taken a "science course" (even though I have a master's in biomedical engineering), I cannot apply? Absolutely absurd and no other school that I've encountered has such a stupid distinction. Yes I saw science and non-science.. and since my degree is in Applied Science, it never crossed my mind that there would be a problem.

I just can't see any reason behind it, and frankly, no other school or rational person does either.
 

ICCONFETTI

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science includes core science classes like physics, bio, general chem, org. chem.

as the above posters have mentioned, you really have to draw the line somewhere. chemical engineering is not chemistry. it's applied, but it's not basic science.

If it doesn't count as science on the AMCAS portion of the application, why would they count as science recommendation letters???

sorry again that you feel cheated though.
 

OrangeTide

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Feel fortunate that they said something to you.

They could have just put your application in the denied stack and you could have gotten a generic denial letter.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, but at the same time, you didn't fulfill the requirements.
 

Robizzle

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Taken from their website:

"If your college does not have a Premedical Committee, letters of evaluation from three undergraduate professors (including at least two from science (biology, chemistry, mathematics, physics, bioengineering) faculty are required. These must come from faculty who have taught you in class or have supervised independent research for which you have received credit."

Sounds like they made it clear. They even included BME, but did not include ChemE. I would definitely try to get around this, with the DEAN, not with the person who picks up phone calls. Good luck, and remember to keep a cool head.
 

MK66

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science includes core science classes like physics, bio, general chem, org. chem.

as the above posters have mentioned, you really have to draw the line somewhere. chemical engineering is not chemistry. it's applied, but it's not basic science.

If it doesn't count as science on the AMCAS portion of the application, why would they count as science recommendation letters???

sorry again that you feel cheated though.


How can you tell which ones counted as BCPM on the AMCAS? I know some of mine did, I just cant tell which ones.

Also, why does it matter science, engineering or anything else?? Why does it matter what they taught you so long as it came from a professor who knows (and taught) you? My engineering courses counted towards prereqs. I mean, I guess I can only laugh at this stupidity. I suppose they are looking at any way to cut people and take their money in the process without using any thought.
 

alwaysaangel

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How can you tell which ones counted as BCPM on the AMCAS? I know some of mine did, I just cant tell which ones.

Also, why does it matter science, engineering or anything else?? Why does it matter what they taught you so long as it came from a professor who knows (and taught) you? My engineering courses counted towards prereqs. I mean, I guess I can only laugh at this stupidity. I suppose they are looking at any way to cut people and take their money in the process without using any thought.

How did your engineering courses count as your general bio, general chemistry and general physics classes?
 
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theDOCTORINATOR

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How can you tell which ones counted as BCPM on the AMCAS? I know some of mine did, I just cant tell which ones.

Also, why does it matter science, engineering or anything else?? Why does it matter what they taught you so long as it came from a professor who knows (and taught) you? My engineering courses counted towards prereqs. I mean, I guess I can only laugh at this stupidity. I suppose they are looking at any way to cut people and take their money in the process without using any thought.
Why not get a letter from your mom. She taught you many things.....why would the school care.....i mean she KNOWS YOU..:sleep:
 

MK66

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Taken from their website:

"If your college does not have a Premedical Committee, letters of evaluation from three undergraduate professors (including at least two from science (biology, chemistry, mathematics, physics, bioengineering) faculty are required. These must come from faculty who have taught you in class or have supervised independent research for which you have received credit."

Sounds like they made it clear. They even included BME, but did not include ChemE. I would definitely try to get around this, with the DEAN, not with the person who picks up phone calls. Good luck, and remember to keep a cool head.

Thanks Robizzle. Yes I did see that on the site. But I guess I just don't see the distinction between a reference letter from "biology, chemistry, mathematics, physics, bioengineering" and one from engineering, which of course included all of those subjects but in the department of engineering. Does thermodynamics not count as a chemistry course? I mean, what do they expect -- these are university, not high school subjects. Anyways, I will call tomorrow once I've cooled down. It's unlikely I will get anywhere of course, but I'll try if for no other reason than to make a point (though there is no doubt it will go unnoticed). Thanks.
 

NovemberWhiskey

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I applied with letters from engineering faculty who taught me classes such as Imaging, Pacemaker Design, and Tissue Engineering, and I have had no problems...

AMCAS regards courses based on their CONTENT not their formal classification at your school. Therefore an instructor who taught you a class that consisted primarily of physics, bio, chem, or math should totally be fair game.

Letters of rec are letters of rec, its ridiculous for schools to have hard and fast limits. I mean clearly a LOR from your grandpa, your uncle and your parents best friend is not acceptable, but come on...
 

TamarMD

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wow doctorinator took the words right out of my mouth. Ok look if just anyone who taught you could write a recommendation don't you think everyone would go and get a letter from the professor that they're best buds with who gave them an A in that course? They ask for science professor cause it speaks more about you. Sure you can get an A in gen chem but it could just be that you got A+ on every exam that was given. Therefore the professor doesn't know YOU he just knows your work. Where we could get into an argument about whether applied science LOR's should count the fact is that at the school you're applying to they don't. So if you truly want to get into med school then stop complaining and just send in those letters. You've already done most of the work so please don't tell me you're going to withdraw over two letters.

oh and PS I thought they wanted more than 2. Isn't the normal recs 2 from science, 1 from any other course and you can add more if you want?
 

braluk

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To the OP- Im sorry to hear your problems. However, you cannot reinterpret the traditional line of thinking of what could count as a science letter professor or not. If there may have been any sliver of a doubt as to whether or not it counts as a science letter of rec, it may have been better to ask ahead of time. In this game, we play by medical schools' rules. What about the professors who taught you your prereqs?

As for figuring out which classes are BCPM or not, look at your AMCAS. on it, they calculate for you, your BCPM and the credit hours per college year. Using that, you can figure out which classes AAMC counts as BCPM. On the listing of classes, you can list classes as Biol, Chem, etc.. etc.. classes that AMCAS corrects and redesignates as something outside of those categories do not count for your BCPM.
 

Lorienne7

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Why do med schools require science LORs? They want to get a sense of your ability to perform in scientifically rigorous courses, where you utilize your intellectual abilities, your analytical skills, your problem-solving abilities, etc.
An engineering LOR would be able to do this just as well as a molecular biology LOR (some might say better). I agree with you OP that NYMC is being unreasonable in their requirements, but if they clearly stated their requirements at the outset, then you're not completely blameless.
 

MK66

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I applied with letters from engineering faculty who taught me classes such as Imaging, Pacemaker Design, and Tissue Engineering, and I have had no problems...

AMCAS regards courses based on their CONTENT not their formal classification at your school. Therefore an instructor who taught you a class that consisted primarily of physics, bio, chem, or math should totally be fair game.

Letters of rec are letters of rec, its ridiculous for schools to have hard and fast limits. I mean clearly a LOR from your grandpa, your uncle and your parents best friend is not acceptable, but come on...


My courses definately consisted primarily of physics, bio, chem, or math. I wonder why they accepted yours and not mine. I do come from a Canadian University with a very confusing transcript... anyways, thanks for letting me know
 

MK66

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wow doctorinator took the words right out of my mouth. Ok look if just anyone who taught you could write a recommendation don't you think everyone would go and get a letter from the professor that they're best buds with who gave them an A in that course? They ask for science professor cause it speaks more about you. Sure you can get an A in gen chem but it could just be that you got A+ on every exam that was given. Therefore the professor doesn't know YOU he just knows your work. Where we could get into an argument about whether applied science LOR's should count the fact is that at the school you're applying to they don't. So if you truly want to get into med school then stop complaining and just send in those letters. You've already done most of the work so please don't tell me you're going to withdraw over two letters.

oh and PS I thought they wanted more than 2. Isn't the normal recs 2 from science, 1 from any other course and you can add more if you want?

The thing is, I dont think I can get letters from anyone that they would consider a science prof. I have of course taken courses in physics, orgo, bio and etc, but they were mostly done through the eng department. If I can find something outside of the department designation, it would likely be back in 2nd year. I dont even know if those professors are teaching anymore and they certainly wouldnt remember me. I completed a masters degree last year, so that was quite a while back. The reason I need only submit 2 is because I have one from my graduate supervisor (also from engineering) but it seems they accept that!!!! That in itself is contradictory. They also accept letters from volunteer placements as extras! I mean, I could have my best buddy at the hospital send one for that!

So for all those saying a science course is the only good judge cus you could otherwise pick anyone, they accepted my grad engineering prof. So, the school is a mess in my opinion. Someone did make a valid point: they make the rules. Anyways, it looks like I wont be able to meet the criteria unless they actually decide to use an ounce of thought.

Finally, the BCMP listing is not clear as to which courses fall into this category and which do not on my AMCAS app. I can see that some do based on the "print app" option, but I can't tell which ones. Anyways, thanks to all who made constructive comments.
 

NovemberWhiskey

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My courses definately consisted primarily of physics, bio, chem, or math. I wonder why they accepted yours and not mine. I do come from a Canadian University with a very confusing transcript... anyways, thanks for letting me know

I didn't apply to NYMC, I'm sure NYMC wouldn't have taken mine either, but I think thats just a localized problem with 1 school, I haven't had problems anywhere else.
 
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TamarMD

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The thing is, I dont think I can get letters from anyone that they would consider a science prof. I have of course taken courses in physics, orgo, bio and etc, but they were mostly done through the eng department. If I can find something outside of the department designation, it would likely be back in 2nd year. I dont even know if those professors are teaching anymore and they certainly wouldnt remember me. I completed a masters degree last year, so that was quite a while back. The reason I need only submit 2 is because I have one from my graduate supervisor (also from engineering) but it seems they accept that!!!! That in itself is contradictory. They also accept letters from volunteer placements as extras! I mean, I could have my best buddy at the hospital send one for that!

So for all those saying a science course is the only good judge cus you could otherwise pick anyone, they accepted my grad engineering prof. So, the school is a mess in my opinion. Someone did make a valid point: they make the rules. Anyways, it looks like I wont be able to meet the criteria unless they actually decide to use an ounce of thought.

Finally, the BCMP listing is not clear as to which courses fall into this category and which do not on my AMCAS app. I can see that some do based on the "print app" option, but I can't tell which ones. Anyways, thanks to all who made constructive comments.

Well then I'm sorry that you're in that predicament. Maybe when you call and explain they will accept it. Med schools are generally understanding when it comes to certain situations
 

MK66

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Ok look if just anyone who taught you could write a recommendation don't you think everyone would go and get a letter from the professor that they're best buds with...

Are you implying that you cant be "best buds" with science profs? Or are you implying that it has to be from a course that is "difficult". If it is the latter, I think engineering applies. Anyways, enough semantics.
 

MK66

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Well then I'm sorry that you're in that predicament. Maybe when you call and explain they will accept it. Med schools are generally understanding when it comes to certain situations

Cool, thanks for the input. Much appreciated.
 

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Hey MK66,

When you were getting your masters degree, did you take any pure math classes at all? I'm guessing not, but I thought I'd throw it out there just in case...
 

cnatstop

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Yea. I'm an engineering student, and I head that from my friend. So I had to fill it in with some other letter. It was bit weird how they count my computer engineering course letter as non-science. but oh well! :confused:
 

freetheyaz

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I actually did not send any science recs...I wrote a letter explaining that I have been out a few years working, and used all MDs (and MD/PhDs) that know me well.
 

dantt

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Hello,

I have just received an email from NYMC stating the following:

"Your evaluations from __ and ___ do not fulfill our science evaluation requirements. In order to complete your application, please have
science letters overnighted to our office. Science evaluations are classified on your AMCAS application as biology, chemistry, physics, or mathematics courses. Non-science evaluations are all other courses."

My references are from engineering professors who taught me courses in thermodynamics and mass transfer to name 2 of the courses they taught me (one was also my final year research project supervisor in biomaterials). THIS IS RIDICULOUS! I plan to call them and give them a piece of my mind. Does this mean that no engineers can apply to this program? I also have a masters degree in engineering. I mean, this is absurd. In essence they are saying that my engineering (also known as applied sciences) courses are "non-science" courses. I'm outraged and will demand a refund if they choose to so discriminate their selection process. Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Thanks,

Some schools consider engineering a science, other's don't. I called and checked before I sent any of them secondary money.

*edit*
I called and checked with a copy of the course syllabus right next to me. Some of them said fine, ok. Others said the professor absolutely must be faculty in BCPM.
 

mlcal06

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OP, sorry to hear you are having to deal with this.. and especially so late in the process

i got the same thing from NYMC because they would not use a letter from my pharmacology professor.. i tried everything.. even sent them a copy of the syllabus (we used a med school textbook) but they refused.. ended up scrambling and getting my stats prof from a community college class i took a few summers ago to write me a letter just so i could be complete.

just because a class isn't by the book a BCPM, doesn't mean your professor cannot gauge your grasp of the material to write you a 'science letter'
although you guys are right in saying that they have outlined what they consider a science letter, you aren't really trying to understand what the OP is saying in that they obviously put in the work (if not more since at most schools engineering is harder than the basic science prereqs) but that because of a small detail they cannot be complete at a school.
as if there weren't already enough hoops to jump through

i guess the only comfort is that the letters you have will still be in your file..
 

Funky

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i surprised nobody called in the

wahmbulance.jpg
 

etf

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i went through a LOT of trouble getting this extra recommendation just for them, and they didn't even grant me an interview. hopefully they will this year.
 

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I actually ended up withdrawing pre-secondary because they were so rude about this issue. I e-mailed them a question about their rec. requirements (I've been out of school for 10 years) and all they did was cut and paste off their website and e-mail it back to me. I was not happy...I can read their darn website...hence the reason I asked the question in the first place.
 
E

Eric Lindros

This is why you need to go to a school with a committee letter. I used core engineering classes for all my letters and I had no problems :D
 
E

Eric Lindros

I applied with letters from engineering faculty who taught me classes such as Imaging, Pacemaker Design, and Tissue Engineering, and I have had no problems...

AMCAS regards courses based on their CONTENT not their formal classification at your school. Therefore an instructor who taught you a class that consisted primarily of physics, bio, chem, or math should totally be fair game.

Letters of rec are letters of rec, its ridiculous for schools to have hard and fast limits. I mean clearly a LOR from your grandpa, your uncle and your parents best friend is not acceptable, but come on...

Agree with this. It depends what your core engineering class content is and how the school interprets it. Some schools are just tougher than others, and NYMC sounds like one.
 

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OP, I agree it's ridiculous. Any reasonable person would understand your argument ... but the key word here is 'reasonable'.

Sadly, this is not the last stupid little hoop you'll have to jump through between now and the end of residency. Sure, you could fight it (probably unsuccessfully given how unreasonable they sound), but think about whether you really want to waste your energy on this. Some battles are truly worth fighting ... but choose wisely. This sounds like a waste of your time.
 
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