NYU College of Dentistry and Nursing

[3rdMolarRoller]

what? NYU and SDN are merging????

NYU School of Dentistry and Nursing

They want to change from college to school to so they can be like Harvard... Harvard School of Medicine

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[ItsGavinC]

NYU School of Dentistry and Nursing

They want to change from college to school to so they can be like Harvard... Harvard School of Medicine

Well, I don't know about *that*. Most dental schools are just that, schools.

 

[ItsGavinC]

what? NYU and SDN are merging????

LOL. Not quite, although that merger would make more sense than what they are proposing.

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

Well, I don't know about *that*. Most dental schools are just that, schools.

Well that was their example... like its been said, they are trying to spin this all they can

 

[datu]

NYU School of Dentistry and Nursing

They want to change from college to school to so they can be like Harvard... Harvard School of Medicine

Gimme a break. You're serious? Why not call it the New York University Harvardian School of Dentistry and Nursing?

Do you really care whether they call it a school or a college? Your dean manages to spin the issue enough to make an issue out of a non-issue in order to divert attention from the real issue. Know what I mean?

 

[ItsGavinC]

Well that was their example... like its been said, they are trying to spin this all they can

I'm aware that you're aware of that. Spin, spin, spin.

 

[datu]

I'm aware that you're aware of that. Spin, spin, spin.

Caution! You are now entering a No-Spin Zone.

 

[Tzips]

Caution! You are now entering a No-Spin Zone.

In which case, I think I just saw the dean fall right out the bottom...

 

[Comet208]

NYU School of Dentistry and Nursing

They want to change from college to school to so they can be like Harvard... Harvard School of Medicine

Sorry Broc, i guess the joke got lost in the cyber. I am following the matter and it seems strange to me also.
btw: i see a lot more benefit for NYUCD community if it merged with SDN!

 

[EHA DDS]

Most people don't have a solid reason why they oppose the merger, it's more a gut feeling. Whether nursing is a noble profession or not, people don't want our "doctoral" reputation to be "tarnished" by nursing. I am not making a value judgement, just saying what lots of people are thinking.

On another note no more dental anatomy....when I thought histology was the most material, they hit us with dental anatomy, biomaterials and occlusion...that was probably the most material I ever had to study in such a short period. I am sure gross anatomy will be content-heavy.

 

[Tzips]

Most people don't have a solid reason why they oppose the merger, it's more a gut feeling. Whether nursing is a noble profession or not, people don't want our "doctoral" reputation to be "tarnished" by nursing. I am not making a value judgement, just saying what lots of people are thinking.

Not sure I agree with you there. I just don't think highly of NYUSDN for the same reason I'd be suspicious of attending 'X School of Medicine and the Fine Arts' - the fact that the two disciplines joined by the schools have absolutely nothing to do with each other makes me kind of wary of the faculty and the school in general. I mean, one would hope that the faculty members are reasonable, logical people, and this indicates the opposite... I have nothing but respect for nursing; however, it has nothing to do with dentistry, IMO.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Most people don't have a solid reason why they oppose the merger, it's more a gut feeling. Whether nursing is a noble profession or not, people don't want our "doctoral" reputation to be "tarnished" by nursing. I am not making a value judgement, just saying what lots of people are thinking.

I don't think that is the reason at all. Most people are oppposed to the ILLOGICAL grouping of two professions with nearly nothing in common. Nurses don't work in the dental office.

Dentists don't interract with nurses. This has NOTHING to do with respect of titles of reputations or doctoral degrees.

Our jobs are different and don't overlap. That's the bottom line. It isn't a gut feeling at all, but a logical conclusion. Logic tells us that combining two distinct and individual fields for the purposes of education actually produces more problems than it remedies.

 

[groundhog]

The world does change. At one time airline flight attendants had to be nurses. And I think many years ago, oral surgeons tended to have nurses rather than DA's on staff. Today we have MD/DO, DDS/DMD, PA, RDH, and ARNP. The boundaries of practice are becomming more blurred as each group seeks a stakehold in the new global economy while politicians seek an answer to the perceived high costs and unequal access of health care. Perhaps the ARNP group in NYC feels threatened by the PA group and is thus exploring an alliance with the DDS/DMD group in hopes of breaking away from the MD/DO group. A DDS/DMD-ARNP alliance might become an alternative to a MD/DO-PA alliance in terms of providing primary health care services to the public. The NY politicians might view such a situation as a means to increase competition and could be tempted to go along with the idea. The DDS/DMD-ARNP alliance might even have the upper hand--the patient gets screened for both dental and other medical issues in one appointment.

 

[lbennett]

The future of dentistry includes saliva screenings which elminate the need for urinalysis and blood tests in doctors offices. it's true!! maybe this actually is an innovative and good idea afterall

 

[Dr. Steve Brule]

The world does change. At one time airline flight attendants had to be nurses. And I think many years ago, oral surgeons tended to have nurses rather than DA's on staff.

actually the oral surgeon i work with has a few nurses on staff..including a CRNA..but still i disagree with the whole thing

 

[Tzips]

The world does change. At one time airline flight attendants had to be nurses. And I think many years ago, oral surgeons tended to have nurses rather than DA's on staff. Today we have MD/DO, DDS/DMD, PA, RDH, and ARNP. The boundaries of practice are becomming more blurred as each group seeks a stakehold in the new global economy while politicians seek an answer to the perceived high costs and unequal access of health care. Perhaps the ARNP group in NYC feels threatened by the PA group and is thus exploring an alliance with the DDS/DMD group in hopes of breaking away from the MD/DO group. A DDS/DMD-ARNP alliance might become an alternative to a MD/DO-PA alliance in terms of providing primary health care services to the public. The NY politicians might view such a situation as a means to increase competition and could be tempted to go along with the idea. The DDS/DMD-ARNP alliance might even have the upper hand--the patient gets screened for both dental and other medical issues in one appointment.

Yes - the world does change, but I do not anticipate a time when primary care medical practitioners will be NPs; that would imply that all MDs would be specialists, with no GPs remaining, and frankly I don't see that happening. Now a MD/DMD allience, on the other hand... My point is that I simply don't think the "lesser-degree" health care people (ARNPs, PAs, RDHs - no disrespect intended, but a BS is not a doctorate) ever replacing doctors as the primary diagnosing people. If they could, why not have offices of only NPs/PAs plus an RDH and do away with GPs of any type alltogether?

 

[datu]

Most people don't have a solid reason why they oppose the merger, it's more a gut feeling. Whether nursing is a noble profession or not, people don't want our "doctoral" reputation to be "tarnished" by nursing. I am not making a value judgement, just saying what lots of people are thinking.

You're right, most people don't have a solid reason, but the person who composed the letter that Brocnizer posted here did bring up some very valid concerns. They may be interpreted as having a somewhat anti-merger slant but in offering the argument, he/she does a very good job of making it clear that prestige and reputation are a very, very small part of the issue at hand.

Cheers,
datu

 

[datu]

Perhaps my understanding is different because I am approaching this from the perspective of where my practice will ultimately be based--California. According to the CA Board of Registered Nursing, an NP has "delegated authority" and must work under
a doctor's license and be under their protocol. An NP can not open his/her own practice unless it is 51% MD owned and as it stands, there is no standardized protocol for dentistry. For an NP to practice out of a dental office, an MD would have to oversee the operation and presumably hold at least a 51% stake in that practice.

This is relevant because a major objective of this merger is to foster the alliance of dentistry and nursing under a separate "dental nursing" program after the so-called "New Zealand Model." In Australia, where the healthcare infrastructure is nearly
identical with that of New Zealand, "dental nurses" fulfill a role that is very similar to the dental hygienist, in fact, there is no such thing as a hygienist over there.

My contention is, why funnel resources into a model of practice that has no presently viable application in this country, and is rather redundant when you consider that we already have a profession that fills this need adequately--that of the dental hygienist? How are the students' tuition dollars being spent?

Is the merger being carried out because NYUSOM wouldn't agree to it? Because NPs have to pair up with an MD and do rotations, and the MD won't agree to it? Will they try to pair the NPs with DDSs and have the whole operation overseen, in name only, by an MD so that it fits under the law?

Don't any of you have family members who are RNs, NPs, PAs, and MDs? Don't you know the dynamics that go on between these professions? Sheesh.

 

[dental2008]

oh the drama...

 

[hermethedentist]

Wow!! This just made it out to the west coast. I had to log onto this. Folks, get a life!!!! You need to chill. Must be an east coast v. west coast thing.

School v. College -- are you serious?? What on earth is the difference?? Is having "nursing" on your diploma really going to diminish your degree?? Clearly this is a self esteem problem that goes back to not being hugged enough as a child. Maybe all of us at the UCSF "School" of Dentistry should get a rebate.

I bet if there was a merger of Medical and Dental Schools, all of us "DDS wannabe MD's" would be thrilled. Admit it, you know it's true. There is as much in common between MD's and dentists as there is between nurses and dentists. Now, now, don't get all cocky over taking Gross Anatomy. All of these naysayers either implicitly, or even explicitly, demonstrate a total lack of respect for nurses. What a shame. These are some of the hardest working people in the world, and they truly understand the meaning of patient care.

I saw someone quote Einstein -- they should also be aware of the Einstein quote -- "In the middle of every difficulty, lies opportunity" -- seems like there could be some upside here. If nothing else, dental students being exposed to the endless hard work and dediction of nurses can't be a bad thing! I'd love to see a DDS primadona out here help a patient go to the bathroom!

Relax! Enjoy the holidays! If you're still steamed after that, check out one of those "anti-globalization" rallies outside the UN -- should be right up your alley.

 

[hockeydentist]

Wow!! This just made it out to the west coast. I had to log onto this. Folks, get a life!!!! You need to chill. Must be an east coast v. west coast thing.

School v. College -- are you serious?? What on earth is the difference?? Is having "nursing" on your diploma really going to diminish your degree?? Clearly this is a self esteem problem that goes back to not being hugged enough as a child. Maybe all of us at the UCSF "School" of Dentistry should get a rebate.

I bet if there was a merger of Medical and Dental Schools, all of us "DDS wannabe MD's" would be thrilled. Admit it, you know it's true. There is as much in common between MD's and dentists as there is between nurses and dentists. Now, now, don't get all cocky over taking Gross Anatomy. All of these naysayers either implicitly, or even explicitly, demonstrate a total lack of respect for nurses. What a shame. These are some of the hardest working people in the world, and they truly understand the meaning of patient care.

I saw someone quote Einstein -- they should also be aware of the Einstein quote -- "In the middle of every difficulty, lies opportunity" -- seems like there could be some upside here. If nothing else, dental students being exposed to the endless hard work and dediction of nurses can't be a bad thing! I'd love to see a DDS primadona out here help a patient go to the bathroom!

Relax! Enjoy the holidays! If you're still steamed after that, check out one of those "anti-globalization" rallies outside the UN -- should be right up your alley.

What a troll

HD

 

[OzDDS]

I bet if there was a merger of Medical and Dental Schools, all of us "DDS wannabe MD's" would be thrilled. Admit it, you know it's true. There is as much in common between MD's and dentists as there is between nurses and dentists.

1) I disagree with your statement about med and dent being further removed from each other than dent and nursing.

2) Med and Dent schools have already merged and the names together on the diploma, take for example, (umdnj) The University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey.

 

[ItsGavinC]

I bet if there was a merger of Medical and Dental Schools, all of us "DDS wannabe MD's" would be thrilled. Admit it, you know it's true. There is as much in common between MD's and dentists as there is between nurses and dentists. Now, now, don't get all cocky over taking Gross Anatomy. All of these naysayers either implicitly, or even explicitly, demonstrate a total lack of respect for nurses. What a shame. These are some of the hardest working people in the world, and they truly understand the meaning of patient care.

I wouldn't be thrilled. Once again, I don't *think* it has anything to do with lack of respect for nurses (although maybe it does and I'm unware of it), but it has to do with illogical combinations in naming/grouping an institution.

Nurses ARE hard working and are severly underpaid. What does that have to do with dentistry? Can a nurse assist me? Nope. Can a nurse do a prophy? Nope. Can I assist a nurse? Nope.

Hmmm. A lot of good all of that does.

 

[datu]

Don't feed the trolls...

 

[JavadiCavity]

I disagree with NYU's course of action. My biggest complaint is that the decision is coming from a single dean! My feeling is that the ADA or the ADEA should be the one suggesting an idea like this after hours and hours of focus groups and industry wide forums and meetings.

I agree that this is just fishy. I too am unable to see the bridge that is linking nursing to dentistry. A far more reasonable combination would be with the school of medicine. I think future NYU applicants are going to be very discouraged by this merger. I don't think this will be good.

Lastly, I don't like the dean's scare tatics in the section where he discusses problems in the dental profession. At the risk of labeling myself as ignorant, I don't think the issues he mentions are worrying too many dentists.

I hope this idea burns to the ground--good luck NYU students. Apparently, NYU will proceed with their plans, but, unless the other d-schools in the country also start thinking this is a great idea nothing is going to happen in the long run.

 

[Pi__Guy1]

not sure if Broc posted this, but it'll answer a lot of the rumors about the diploma thing...

Dear Student Colleagues – Today, I met with about a dozen student leaders from the College of Dentistry to discuss the issues surrounding the combination of Dentistry and Nursing. While there has been significant e-mail exchange on the matter, this meeting was scheduled on short notice so that the student leaders could have an opportunity to articulate any additional concerns to me about the matter prior to the break. In addition, I wanted to update your class representatives about my discussions with the University leadership about two key issues: whether the dental program would be organized as a division or a College, and whether currently enrolled dental students, and those who will be joining us in September of 2005, can continue to receive the current NYUCD diploma.

We talked for 90 minutes, and rather than write another long e-mail that is subject to misinterpretation, I expect that when you speak to your class leaders, you will find that the impact of this partnership on either your education or quality of life at the College is not at risk. However, I do want you to know where we stand on the two issues that have caused the greatest consternation. First, concerning whether the dental program would become a Division under the new School vs. continue as the College of Dentistry under the new School, I am pleased to report that, given the long legacy of the NYU College of Dentistry, the Provost is positively inclined to support our request that the dental program be continued as a College of Dentistry in the new School of Dentistry and Nursing. In addition, after careful review of the diploma issue by the Chief Counsel of the University, the Provost is also inclined to support our recommendation that dental students who are already here, and those who will soon join is in the Class of 2009, will receive the diploma that is currently given by the NYU College of Dentistry. Please note that the Provost is understandably reserving his formal final opinion on both of these matters until the period for comment on the proposal is completed. At that time, I expect to be able to report these positive outcomes to you on a formal basis.

Many of you wrote thoughtful e-mails, for which I thank you. I have responded directly to as many of the individuals who wrote as my time would allow. Importantly, your concern has been very helpful in adding significant perspective to the discussion, and has certainly helped to shape the final recommendation that the Provost will make. I will continue to respond to new issues or new questions that may arise, but I ask you to frame any additional questions in the mutually respectful manner that we are trying to nurture at the College.

I extend my very best wishes for an enjoyable break, and a healthy, happy and productive New Year. I hope to see many of you at the party on Thursday night. (Please remember that you need to have registered for this event if you intend to come.)

Sincerely,
Dean Alfano

 

[favabean]

If nothing else, dental students being exposed to the endless hard work and dediction of nurses can't be a bad thing! I'd love to see a DDS primadona out here help a patient go to the bathroom!

Wow...I think nurses do more than just help patients go to the bathroom. Are you sure you aren't the one who thinks less of nurses?

And also, why should dental students be exposed to the hard work and dedication of nurses...you seem to imply that they need that type of influence. The last time I checked, dental students work their asses off. It is not necessary for dental students to be exposed to another, albeit equally challenging and demanding, profession.

Bottom line: those who oppose the combining of dentistry and nursing are not looking down on nurses. And if dent merged with med, no, that wouldn't be problem because they are both doctoral degrees. It's a fact, and we shouldn't be so politically correct to say it.

 

[hockeydentist]

Hmmm, I thought nurses only go to school for 2 years. Hands down Dental students work harder than nurses. No comparison at all, other than nurses are associated with medical field.

Honestly, Nurses don't have the same responsiblities as Dentist or the stresses that go along with it. Therefore the Dentists have to make the judgement call and there ass is on the line when things don't work out, nurses are the ones that just follow the judgement of the doctor.

The whole dental school and nursing school is disrespectfull period to students at NYU who are or going to be working and studying for 4 years.

With greater responsiblity, there should come more respect.

 

[datu]

not sure if Broc posted this, but it'll answer a lot of the rumors about the diploma thing...

"Please note that the Provost is understandably reserving his formal final opinion on both of these matters until the period for comment on the proposal is completed. At that time, I expect to be able to report these positive outcomes to you on a formal basis."

Uh, sorry to burst your bubble, but this hardly qualifies as an answer to the diploma controversy.

Classic example of someone trying to buy time.

Not impressed.

 

[JavadiCavity]

I agree datu. Sounds about as noncomittal as it gets.

 

[datu]

I agree datu. Sounds about as noncomittal as it gets.

And that's perfectly OK. I'm sure someone there at NYU has something up his/her sleeve that'll be ready to go once the admins try to push this through. Those students can't be as dumb as the bigwigs think.

 

[smkoepke]

Hmmm, I thought nurses only go to school for 2 years. Hands down Dental students work harder than nurses. No comparison at all, other than nurses are associated with medical field.

Honestly, Nurses don't have the same responsiblities as Dentist or the stresses that go along with it. Therefore the Dentists have to make the judgement call and there ass is on the line when things don't work out, nurses are the ones that just follow the judgement of the doctor.

The whole dental school and nursing school is disrespectfull period to students at NYU who are or going to be working and studying for 4 years.

With greater responsiblity, there should come more respect.

only associate or diploma degrees are 3 yrs (the 2 yr thing is a myth in general because it takes at least 1 year of prereqs that most schools won't let you take at the same time as the actual program) but at NYU, the shortest nursing degree would have to be 4 yr bachelors degree, then masters and phd. (of course i realize that the DENTAL program is 4 yrs and the actual bachelors degree NURSING program would be 2, but just had to clarify that nurses don't "just" go to school for 2 yrs.) Nurses are licensed individuals responsible for their own practice within acceptable standards of nursing set out by their state boards. Yes they follow doctors orders, but they still face loss of licensing and prosecution/lawsuits if they simply "follow the judgement of the doctor" if that judgement is not in harmony with acceptable standards for nursing. So they carry a large level of responsibility as well. Now that doesn't mean that the this merger makes any sense whatsoever, and I can see the argument that because the entry level for practice for DDS is a doctorate, and entry level for nursing is undergraduate, that the diploma should not be inclusive of both programs. If they are going to "merge" two departments it seems to me that the most sensible merger would be the medical school with the nursing school. After all, these are the professionals who are going to work closely together and they need to know how to interact. (of course the degree difference issue would still apply, but at least the merger would be somewhat more sensible.)

 

[edkNARF]

Now that doesn't mean that the this merger makes any sense whatsoever, and I can see the argument that because the entry level for practice for DDS is a doctorate, and entry level for nursing is undergraduate, that the diploma should not be inclusive of both programs.

The DDS degree, like MD/JD/DVM, is actually an undergraduate degree. These degrees are referred to as "first professional degrees," they are not doctorates.

 

[datu]

The DDS degree, like MD/JD/DVM, is actually an undergraduate degree. These degrees are referred to as "first professional degrees," they are not doctorates.

From what I understand, this is only true in other countries. DDS/DMD, MD, JD/LLD, and DVM are full-fledged doctorates. But yes, you have things like BDS and MDS in elsewhere, which are indeed undergraduate degrees, but those holding them are still referred to as "doctors."

 

[J2AZ]

Hmmm, I thought nurses only go to school for 2 years. Hands down Dental students work harder than nurses. No comparison at all, other than nurses are associated with medical field.

Honestly, Nurses don't have the same responsiblities as Dentist or the stresses that go along with it. Therefore the Dentists have to make the judgement call and there ass is on the line when things don't work out, nurses are the ones that just follow the judgement of the doctor.

The whole dental school and nursing school is disrespectfull period to students at NYU who are or going to be working and studying for 4 years.

With greater responsiblity, there should come more respect.

HD you cant truly think this way
I worked as a CNA before applying to dental school and I have seen what nurses go through.

1)A two year degree is NOT a two year degree. Please do not be fooled. Most RN's come from 4year programs (such as NYU) and those that receive a two year degree it is after finishing about 1.5 years of prereqs (ie a 3.5 year program).

2)You are right when you say a nurse and dentist do not have the same stress. However to imply one is greater than the other illustrates your lack of nursing experience. A dentists stresses over his business while a nurse stresses over if his patient is going to die. When is the last time a person died after a restoration.

3)Nurses do much more than just follow the judgement of doctors. Nurses are the primary care provider for their patients. They are constantly evaluating the patients condition. They need to be able to recognize changes so that proper care can be administered. If they just followed the doctors judgement and not their own, robots could do their job and many patients would be dead. Doctors often see their patients once a day to once a week while nurses see them every hour.

4)There is no way to gauge who works harder dental students or nursing students.

However, I strongly believe neither should have the others title on their diploma. It is illogical and does not add prestige to either group. Also, dentistry is a graduate degree while nursing is traditionally an undergraduate degree. That alone should, in a logical world, keept the two seperate.

 

[datu]

Hmmm, I thought nurses only go to school for 2 years. Hands down Dental students work harder than nurses. No comparison at all, other than nurses are associated with medical field.

Honestly, Nurses don't have the same responsiblities as Dentist or the stresses that go along with it. Therefore the Dentists have to make the judgement call and there ass is on the line when things don't work out, nurses are the ones that just follow the judgement of the doctor.

The whole dental school and nursing school is disrespectfull period to students at NYU who are or going to be working and studying for 4 years.

With greater responsiblity, there should come more respect.

While we're both in agreement on this merger, I can't agree with you on this point. The joke years ago was that you always wanted the nurse with the two-year degree on the floor and not the one with the four-year or graduate degree. Why? Because the nurse with the two-year degree had all the clinical, real-world experience, and the BSN would conveniently get lost during a crisis because she'd spent so much time doing didactics and didn't really know how to treat a problem when it'd come up.

And nowadays, you have so many incompetent MDs. They're often great scientists but lack clinical expertise or common sense. Some of them even resort to asking nurses or technicians what *their* opinion of a case is, because they don't have a clue.

So in that sense, education isn't always indicative of expertise.

 

[edkNARF]

From what I understand, this is only true in other countries. DDS/DMD, MD, JD/LLD, and DVM are full-fledged doctorates. But yes, you have things like BDS and MDS in elsewhere, which are indeed undergraduate degrees, but those holding them are still referred to as "doctors."

The term "doctor" is a title, and thus is used as a courtesy. If you ever notice when your professors at college present their credentials, they used John Doe, PhD. They don't write their names as Dr. John Doe because the term "doctor" itself carries no weight. This is the same reason why perscriptions are almost always written as Jane Doe, MD. Using credentials after one's name (DDS, PhD) in the US is regulated, it is not regulated to be called "Dr. Smith*."

*It is illegal to call yourself Dr. Smith if you are presenting yourself as a medical doctor though. I am quite sure of this, but I do not have a source at hand.

 

[edkNARF]

An interesting factoid is that almost all professions consider it taboo to present one's self as "Dr. Mike Miller, DDS."

 

[datu]

The term "doctor" is a title, and thus is used as a courtesy. If you ever notice when your professors at college present their credentials, they used John Doe, PhD. They don't write their names as Dr. John Doe because the term "doctor" itself carries no weight. This is the same reason why perscriptions are almost always written as Jane Doe, MD. Using credentials after one's name (DDS, PhD) in the US is regulated, it is not regulated to be called "Dr. Smith*."

*It is illegal to call yourself Dr. Smith if you are presenting yourself as a medical doctor though. I am quite sure of this, but I do not have a source at hand.

You learn something new everyday.

 

[OzDDS]

From what I understand, this is only true in other countries. DDS/DMD, MD, JD/LLD, and DVM are full-fledged doctorates. But yes, you have things like BDS and MDS in elsewhere, which are indeed undergraduate degrees, but those holding them are still referred to as "doctors."

edkNARF is actually correct.. the MD/DDS/DMD is no more a doctorate than the MBBS/MBchB/BMed/BDS/BDent. Full fledge nothing..

When a doctor with an MBBS takes their exams and gains licensure in the US he/she is allowed to use the nominals MD if they so desire.



If the US states that they are "legal equivilents" of each other. Which it does! ie.
MD = MBBS

That means one of two things:

1) Says that another countries bachelor degree is to the level of a doctorate in the US.

or

2) Says that a Doctorate in the US is no greater level than a bachelors.




I'd have to say that the better definition would be #2.
.. for one because this is the first degree in that field that is offered. ie. an MD does not build on prior Medical knowledge and training (a previous bachelors in bio does not count as this is technically a different field)


Just because you complete a prior degree before entering medicine.. even if it is required.. that does not make it a doctorate in that field of study.

Actually ask some of the medical students from the Australia or the UK. There are many medical schools that 'require' a previous degree before you can begin the program. (Graduate entry programs) But the degree you recieve is still a "bachelor of medicine" (MBBS).

There are also 6-year med programs for students right out of high school in the US too! So it also has nothing to do with the actual length of the program. McMasters' Med program in Canada (MD) is only 3 years!

The British system (upon which the US education system is founded btw) still keeps to the true definition and tradition of education and calls it what is truely is a bachelor/entry level degree to that field of study.. or a universally agreed upon term "first professional degree".

The US has a history of changing all their degrees to "Doctorates" ... just look at Physical therapy. What used to be a Bachelor of Physical therapy turned into a Masters then turned into a "Doctorate" (DPT). But at the end of the day.. guess what.. your still a physical therapist with no greater a scope of practice. This is simply a silly manuver pushed through by pressure groups to create more direct access by allied health professionals.

But even for medical doctors.. the degree is the same regardless of what you call it.

 

[datu]

Actually ask some of the medical students from the Australia or the UK. There are many medical schools that 'require' a previous degree before you can begin the program. (Graduate entry programs) But the degree you recieve is still a "bachelor of medicine" (MBBS).

I think that's how I became confused in the first place. Oh, the technicalities!

 

[TucsonDDS]

Hmmm, I thought nurses only go to school for 2 years. Hands down Dental students work harder than nurses. No comparison at all, other than nurses are associated with medical field.

Honestly, Nurses don't have the same responsiblities as Dentist or the stresses that go along with it. Therefore the Dentists have to make the judgement call and there ass is on the line when things don't work out, nurses are the ones that just follow the judgement of the doctor.

The whole dental school and nursing school is disrespectfull period to students at NYU who are or going to be working and studying for 4 years.

With greater responsiblity, there should come more respect.

So Hockeydentist, when was the last time you worked as a nurse. When was the last time that you took care of a 6 month old on a ventilator after their parents beat the piss out of them. When was the last time that you started to do compressions on that same 6 month old while you were waiting for that doctor to come and make some "judgements" for you. When was the last time that you took care of somebody having a grand-mal seizure due to full blown DT's from alcohol (which by the way has someware around a 60% mortality rate). I have a feeling that you don't really know what goes on in a hospital.

Sure, dentists have a lot of responsibilities. They have to provide quality care to their patients in non-life threatening circumstances and they have to provide for their staff. Most of all they have to work an average of 4hrs less per week and earn an average of 4x more in salary. Those are some responsibilities that I look forward to having. "With greater responsiblity, there should come more respect" so hopefully people will have more respect for their average nurse than they will for you when you are in practice??

I have been a nurse for almost 10 years now and I have worked everything from geriatric psych to pediatric bone marrow transplant and ICU. Hearing comments like yours reminds me of so many jack-ass med students and residents that I have had to work with and it is quite upsetting.


Now back to the origional topic.

I see absolutely no reason why a Dentist would ever need a nurse to work in his/her office on a regular basis. The only thing I can think of is during concious sedation monitoring which could be done on a PRN basis. And I don't think that it is appropriate for NYU to combine the programs, it would make much more sense to combine the nursing program with the med school, but we all know the likelyhood of that.

 

[hockeydentist]

So Hockeydentist, when was the last time you worked as a nurse. When was the last time that you took care of a 6 month old on a ventilator after their parents beat the piss out of them. When was the last time that you started to do compressions on that same 6 month old while you were waiting for that doctor to come and make some "judgements" for you. When was the last time that you took care of somebody having a grand-mal seizure due to full blown DT's from alcohol (which by the way has someware around a 60% mortality rate). I have a feeling that you don't really know what goes on in a hospital.

I love your dramatic examples, you a hero, give me a break! Throw in some factoid of 60% mortality just to prove to the readers that you're some type of expert, ooohh awwhh.

What are u trying to show, how emotional draining a nurses life is? here again is another reason dentistry and nurses should not mix.

 

[TucsonDDS]

I love your dramatic examples, you a hero, give me a break! Throw in some factoid of 60% mortality just to prove to the readers that you're some type of expert, ooohh awwhh.

What are u trying to show, how emotional draining a nurses life is? here again is another reason dentistry and nurses should not mix.

Do I think I am some kind of hero? No, but you would if you ever had a loved one in the hospital dying of cancer, or at home with a hospice nurse. I don't understand why you don't give any respect to a field that works so hard and gets so little in return. I am not saying that you need to blindly give nurses respect, you shouldn't do that with anybody. Nurses, doctors, dental hygienists, dentists and hundreds of other jobs are all part of healthcare with different responsibilities. Does it make sense to combine them into one college, NO, but they are all needed in this country. To say that one person is better than someone else based simply on their job is rediculous and I hope that these attitudes of yours don't show during your interviews.

If you think that working as a nurse is only "emotionally draining" you definitely have no clue what their role is. By the way, why don't you describe some of these immense responsibilites that Dentists have and how they are physically, mentally or emotionally more demanding than nurses'. Now I am not saying that Dentistry is a cake walk, I realize I will be working my ass off when I start school in the fall and when I open a practice but I have news for you, I already work my ass off.

 

[qaztake82]

dont waste your time arguing with this idiot tucson, i agree with all your statements after having worked in the E.R. as a tech and also shadowing multiple dentists. almost every nurse i have met works much harder than your average dentist as far as thier job goes. sure it may be more competitive to get into and through dental school, but after that there is no comparison.

 

[hockeydentist]

dont waste your time arguing with this idiot tucson, i agree with all your statements after having worked in the E.R. as a tech and also shadowing multiple dentists. almost every nurse i have met works much harder than your average dentist as far as thier job goes. sure it may be more competitive to get into and through dental school, but after that there is no comparison.

Thats Mr. Idiot, too you pal! Again all I am saying is that comparing dentist to nurses doesn't work. I'll admit that nurses do some great things in their field as do Dentist.

 

[shariq]

Hi yall
this is what a fourth year at NYPOOO has to say
If you read Alfanos earlier email he said that there were rumors floating about the merger. I have heard of many rumors but none bearing t he term NYU school of dentistry and nursing
Now to confirm my opinion about what a flaming dungpile NYUCD is, there is only one reason for the merger and that is MONEY. Give me a break, nyu helping students understand the health profession field better, working in collaboration with our collegues. Since when has NYU ever helped its students. Its about helping their own pockets my friends. Think about the added tuition, additional research that will be obtained.

I agree with most of you, that nurses and dentists do not belong together. Ever heard of an RN being with a dentist in a dental private office. Mention this to another dentist and he will laugh his ass off.
I am by no means bashing nurses. One of my aunts is a nurse and i have the most respect for her. Its an extremely honorable profession. BUT mixing nursing and dentistry, is like saying but a band aid on a gangrenous arm. IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE>

so heres what i had to say.
:

 

[fixensmiles]

My opinion to this is , your diploma reflects your title . This has been the way it has been for hundreds of years. Acadamia and tradition has deemed it so not commitees. The reason a physician is called a doctor and a nurse isnt is the same point as to why a dentist is called a doctor and a hygienest isnt . dont take things personal sir. I am a doctor because I have a doctorate, as do physicians, phd's, and even a lawer. Until you can call a nurse a doctor or a hygienest a doctor or a paralegal a lawer;the point remains the same. As far as backround goes, my mother was a nurse before she became a renouned doctor , I am the first dentist in my family but I am a third generation doctor and one of 15 doctors in my family . This warrents my opinion as well as gives it merrit. Now, I do not want to sound persumptous simply because I do not know you but it would seem that your opinion on the matter comes from emotion; which has no place in dictating logic; and logic here is what prevales. I wish you good luck in your career at NYU and maybe when you are done you will share our logic on the matter , if not, I still wish you a successful career and life.
etc.

I haven’t yet gotten involved in this forum, but I feel the need too here. Nurses are an incredibly hard working group of people who are so under-respected in our society! What is everyone’s apprehension about grouping the two together, that nurses don’t have your GPA, that they don’t go through as much school? well in many cases they do! Or is it because nurses are usually women and dentists are usually men (and I say that as a man)? Saying that the two are unrelated fields is just a cop out and a way to disguise how you really feel. They are both health care fields! Or perhaps my liberal arts education has given me some kind of super-human ability to realize that different fields are often connected (what a crazy thought). I have been accepted to NYU and if my diploma reads NYU college of dentistry and nursing, I wont be upset for one second. Get off your high horse and realize that you are not the only group of people in this world who work hard and deserve respect. No wonder so many people hate going to the dentist!

 

[smkoepke]

My opinion to this is , your diploma reflects your title . This has been the way it has been for hundreds of years. Acadamia and tradition has deemed it so not commitees. The reason a physician is called a doctor and a nurse isnt is the same point as to why a dentist is called a doctor and a hygienest isnt . dont take things personal sir. I am a doctor because I have a doctorate, as do physicians, phd's, and even a lawer. Until you can call a nurse a doctor or a hygienest a doctor or a paralegal a lawer;the point remains the same. etc.

Although the entry level to practice is not doctorate for nurses there are many that have it. So they have the right to use their earned title, (where appropriate i might add) However even if nursing changes its entry to practice to doctorate level, it still doesn't make sense to combine the school of nursing with the school of dentistry. I don't get it....

 

[edkNARF]

I am a doctor because I have a doctorate, as do physicians, phd's, and even a lawer. Until you can call a nurse a doctor or a hygienest a doctor or a paralegal a lawer;the point remains the same. As far as backround goes, my mother was a nurse before she became a renouned doctor , I am the first dentist in my family but I am a third generation doctor and one of 15 doctors in my family . This warrents my opinion as well as gives it merrit. Now, I do not want to sound persumptous simply because I do not know you but it would seem that your opinion on the matter comes from emotion; which has no place in dictating logic; and logic here is what prevales. I wish you good luck in your career at NYU and maybe when you are done you will share our logic on the matter , if not, I still wish you a successful career and life.
etc.

A dental degree is not a doctorate! You are called a doctor out of courtesy, but you have not achieved a doctorate-level degree. The MD, JD, DMD/DDS, OD, DO, DC are all undergraduate degrees. We call them first professional degrees, but they are still undergraduate degrees. A doctorate is earned when you have achieved the highest level of education in a field, the PhD. Don't convince yourself that title alone gives you the right to say anything! I know plenty of well-ecucated people who should not be able to exercise their right to free speech.
Just because you are the 15th doctor in your family, that does not make your opinions any more valid than a first generation dentist. You can not apply the "grandfather clause" to knowledge.
As for you "Now, I do not want to sound presumptuous...." comment. When someone begins a sentence with "I don't want to sound presumptuous," they are usuallly just trying to make themselves sound less like an a$$ for the presumptuous statement they are about to make.
My opinion: Dentisty and Nursing are two very separate fields and really dont' belong in the same school. That does not mean that you are belittling dentistry by merging it with a nursing school, or that you are aggrandizing a nursing school by merging it with a dental school. If NYU needs to do this for financial reasons, it is going to happen, I don't think a forum on SDN is going to change anything.