About the Ads

wanderingorion

2+ Year Member
Mar 31, 2015
1,075
1,878
Status
Medical Student
I think having the process at least started early would be beneficial, especially in NYC, where they are more likely to deplete their workforce with the surge in cases currently.
 

Kardio

2+ Year Member
Oct 19, 2017
735
1,798
Status
Medical Student (Accepted)
  • Like
Reactions: Beans203

Pepe18

2+ Year Member
Aug 2, 2016
377
662
The real interesting part of the order allowing NYU to do this is that PAs are allowed to practice independently as are IMGs with one year of post-grad experience. Resident work hour restrictions were also lifted...It will be interesting to see what residual effects, of any, this whole pandemic has on the medical field
 

DO2015CA

Resident - PGY1
5+ Year Member
Apr 21, 2014
2,387
3,938
Status
Resident [Any Field]
The real interesting part of the order allowing NYU to do this is that PAs are allowed to practice independently as are IMGs with one year of post-grad experience. Resident work hour restrictions were also lifted...It will be interesting to see what residual effects, of any, this whole pandemic has on the medical field
Especially since NYC has a reputation of not respecting residents anyways. I know NYU doesn't have the sweat shop reputation but imagine at those hospitals that are sweat shop
 
  • Like
Reactions: y123
Jan 15, 2020
121
222
Status
Medical Student
Sep 3, 2019
17
18
Status
Medical Student
Out of curiosity, who would voluntarily agree to do this? Esp. given the shortage of PPE / ludicrous hospital policies (at many hospitals, not sure about NYU) not allowing providers to wear PPE?
 
Mar 12, 2020
67
113
Status
Medical Student
Same thing being offered to Einstein students.

With a few key differences:
  • It's mandatory for all students starting April 6th.
  • Students are unpaid.
  • Students still have to pay tuition.
  • No early graduation.
  • No early completion of residency.
  • They are graduation requirements, so if you don't do it; no degree.
Is this even legal? To say this kind of arrangement is highly irregular for a medical school to institute is putting it mildly. This isn't what anyone signed up for, so I can't see that this kind of bait and switch at the 11th hour would survive being challenged. What's next, you have to volunteer for the Marines and forfeit your salary while still paying full tuition as a condition of graduation? GTFO
 

Mass Effect

SDN Gold Donor
Gold Donor
7+ Year Member
Feb 23, 2012
2,815
4,364
Status
Attending Physician
Same thing being offered to Einstein students.

With a few key differences:
  • It's mandatory for all students starting April 6th.
  • Students are unpaid.
  • Students still have to pay tuition.
  • No early graduation.
  • No early completion of residency.
  • They are graduation requirements, so if you don't do it; no degree.
So I was all ready to hate on Einstein and then I actually read what they said. You have a choice in what you can do and one of the options is "no direct patient contact." So you're not being forced into the pandemic, but you're helping out. This doesn't sound like a bad thing to me, even if it's mandatory.

I agree NYU did it better and I don't think MS4s should be on the wards unless they've graduated and are getting paid, but I have no qualms about schools asking students to work in supportive roles, such as manning call centers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VA Hopeful Dr
About the Ads
Jan 15, 2020
121
222
Status
Medical Student
So I was all ready to hate on Einstein and then I actually read what they said. You have a choice in what you can do and one of the options is "no direct patient contact." So you're not being forced into the pandemic, but you're helping out. This doesn't sound like a bad thing to me, even if it's mandatory.

I agree NYU did it better and I don't think MS4s should be on the wards unless they've graduated and are getting paid, but I have no qualms about schools asking students to work in supportive roles, such as manning call centers.
Actually I think that's only for students oping to volunteer before April 6th, after which clinical care becomes mandatory.
Also it looks like it'll be part of their graduation requirements.

Even if they're not being required to do direct patient care, the students are shelling out $53k/yr so the school can use them as free labor rather than actually hire people to meet staffing shortages and using their degrees as leverage. This strikes me as a bad thing. They are literally being told "pay us your tuition money, work for us for free or we don't let you graduate and good luck paying off those student loans."

Here's the full statement:

Dear Class of 2020,
We are living in extraordinary, highly dynamic times and we, as a community, are working around the clock to address COVID-19.
As many of you know, our clinical colleagues have been redeployed from the outpatient arena in response to the rising numbers of hospitalized patients. Additionally, our subspecialists are performing primary care, our elective surgeries have been postposed, and we are doubling our available hospital beds. An NIH sponsored remdesivir trial has also been launched, basic studies on antibodies and SARS-COV2 are intensifying, Einstein students are running COVID-19 diagnostics in the clinical laboratory, and you and your peers have begun to field calls at Montefiore’s Occupational Health Service. That represents a tremendous amount of positive activity designed to combat a dire threat to our community.
But we can’t overlook the fact that tremendous pressure and stress has been placed on our healthcare system. As a result, all-hands are now being called upon to aggressively meet the challenge of treating COVID-19 patients. Governor Cuomo has formally asked that all healthcare providers, including medical students, actively contribute to our campaign against COVID-19. Additionally, Dr. Philip O. Ozuah, President and CEO of Montefiore, and Dr. Gordon F. Tomaselli, Einstein’s dean, have requested that our students play a major role in combatting the pandemic. Today, in other words, is different than yesterday and tomorrow we will bring many new challenges in delivering care to those most in need.
In two months, you will be graduating from Einstein and we are incredibly proud of your remarkable achievements. Although we stated that you are expected to return to resume clinical care on April 6th, our hospitals and community need you.
Therefore, we are asking each of you to let us know if you are willing to do one of the following:
1) resume clinical work as a sub-intern with expanded responsibilities on a ward currently identified as low risk for working with COVID-19 infected patients;
2) resume clinical work as a sub-intern with expanded responsibilities on a ward with COVID-19 infected patients; or
3) work in an ancillary area, such as taking calls within Occupational Health and Safety, with no direct contact with patients.
For those of you who have yet to complete your sub-internships, options #1 and #2 will count towards your graduation requirements.
These policies and actions are consistent with and supported by the Association of American Medical Colleges and the Liaison Committee for Medical Education.

We realize this news is likely startling and potentially anxiety provoking, but we working with Montefiore leadership to protect the health and safety of those of you who choose to work in a hospital setting. For example, our hospitals have assured us that each of our students will have appropriate personal protective equipment, you will be re-trained in their use, you will be supervised by appropriate faculty and that your safety— and that of all care providers—is paramount.
We are also absolutely confident that you are more than up to this task and will provide exceptional, compassionate care, as you have done so successfully to date.
To conclude, we ask you to please respond to the following poll by Thursday at 5pm to provide your availability and your choice for participating in this worthy effort: https://einsteinmed.co1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_8360Ne9PDYiYkYd
We will be hosting a virtual Town Hall on Thursday at 2pm (details to follow) to further address this call to service and look forward to your joining us then.
Thank you,
Joshua D. Nosanchuk, MD, FACP, FIDSA, FAAM
Senior Associate Dean for Medical Education

Professor, Department of Medicine (Division of Infectious Diseases)
Professor, Department of Microbiology and Immunology
Albert Einstein College of Medicine

Attending Physician (Infectious Diseases)
Montefiore Medical Center
 

Pepe18

2+ Year Member
Aug 2, 2016
377
662
I hope Einstein clarifies for their students what the April 6th line is about. It’s unclear if they mean its becoming a formal rotation option on the 6th or if it’s becoming mandatory. (Edit: from the above, it does seem more on the mandatory side. Insane)

Either way, many NYC med students I know have left NYC. It’s not the best time to be traveling back.

One of the nurses at Mount Sinai passed away. Students should not be expected to even volunteer on any ward when there isn’t adequate PPE and we aren’t receiving pay or benefits to help us in case we do get hospitalized
 

longhaul3

2+ Year Member
Feb 29, 2016
652
1,038
Wow, that's horrific. Not only is this outright coercion in the name of "serving patients," but it's amazingly selfish on the part of the school and hospital (btw, no **** the CEO of Monte wants this free labor without liability). All these poor students who were voluntold to see covid patients—and there's no way there will be adequate PPE for the duration of this—will be exposed and will either get sick (right after their student health insurance lapses) or get quarantined right before they have to move somewhere and start residency.
 

Espressso

SDN Bronze Donor
Bronze Donor
2+ Year Member
Apr 25, 2016
1,286
1,436
blood-brain barrier
Status
Medical Student
  • Like
Reactions: himitsuda

Epilepsy365

Probationary Status
Oct 1, 2019
539
1,081
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Same thing being offered to Einstein students.

With a few key differences:
  • It's mandatory for all students starting April 6th.
  • Students are unpaid.
  • Students still have to pay tuition.
  • No early graduation.
  • No early completion of residency.
  • They are graduation requirements, so if you don't do it; no degree.
Thank god I avoid this place like a plaque for residency applications.
 
  • Like
Reactions: y123

Lucca

Will Walk Rope for Sandwich
Staff member
Administrator
5+ Year Member
Oct 22, 2013
8,296
18,259
City of the Future
Status
Medical Student
Same has been happening in European countries since about two weeks ago. Unlike some are posting here I think some of us *did* in fact sign up for this and given the opportunity would take it.

That said, NO ONE should be on the frontlines working for free or without benefits (including not just med students but all of the “essential” workers who still have to go out every day to keep society running, and especially Frontline health workers) and these students should at the very least have their student debt forgiven for volunteering in high risk conditions. Re: PPE hopefully the shortage is alleviated by the Marshall plan for health portion of the Senate bill, though govt is not being aggressive enough in directing industry production rn.

If it were up to me in NyC: graduate all Ms4s early, appropriate hotels for quarantining Health workers when they show symptoms so they don’t expose their families (UCSF has done this), suspend all Ms4 student debt and all currently held student debt for active house staff, pay everyone newly grad MS4s an interns salary for the duration of the crisis
 
Last edited:

singkwon

Junior Member
15+ Year Member
Oct 27, 2002
8
3
Visit site
Status
Thank god I avoid this place like a plaque for residency applications.
Totally agree with you! I attended medical school at NYU. I interviewed at both NYU and Albert Einstein College of Medicine (AECOM). Didn’t like the vibe at AECOM. Fortunately they rejected me off their waitlist but I was already admitted at NYU a few weeks after my interview. Could not have been happier: it was a great experience with supportive system. Even the way they handle things now and offering students to graduate early as an option to help those in need is commendable - can’t say the same from AECOM when I read the above.
 

Epilepsy365

Probationary Status
Oct 1, 2019
539
1,081
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I have a simple solution for the health crisis in New York. Break the nursing union over there and tell all of those slackers to start drawing pt's labs properly on time and push the pt beds to the designated department on time. Thank you very much.
 
OP
Dantrolene FC

Dantrolene FC

ASA Member
May 19, 2019
332
586
Status
Medical Student
I have a simple solution for the health crisis in New York. Break the nursing union over there and tell all of those slackers to start drawing pt's labs properly on time and push the pt beds to the designated department on time. Thank you very much.
Agreed. Unions do more harm than good overall.

Everyone will say, oh, but we need union to protect safe work environments and to prevent employers from taking advantage of employees. While that was true 100 years ago, guess what: we all have those protections now thanks to OSHA and the Department of Labor. If your employee has a dangerous work environment, turn them in to OSHA. If they don't pay you your legally entitled wages, turn them in to DoL. If they don't pay you a "living wage" either find a new job or move to the south where it's cheaper to live.
 
About the Ads

Lucca

Will Walk Rope for Sandwich
Staff member
Administrator
5+ Year Member
Oct 22, 2013
8,296
18,259
City of the Future
Status
Medical Student
lmao in the middle of a global pandemic combination economic crisis where millions will not have sufficient benefits or income to weather the physical and financial damage of the coming months calling for breaking up unions is the most phenomenally bad take you could possibly have.

thx for reminding me to sign off SDN for the next few months.
 

KnuxNole

Sweets Addict
10+ Year Member
May 3, 2006
4,639
1,488
Status
Attending Physician
I have a simple solution for the health crisis in New York. Break the nursing union over there and tell all of those slackers to start drawing pt's labs properly on time and push the pt beds to the designated department on time. Thank you very much.
I didn't do training and not working in NYC....

but aren't those usually phlebotomy and transport? Nurses on the wards here don't usually draw labs or transport to CT/MRI/ECHO/etc. And if nurses are supposed to do them and they aren't, who does it?
 

aSagacious

Moderator Emeritus
7+ Year Member
Nov 16, 2010
8,170
115
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Goes to show you can't please everyone.
1. Medical students are forbidden from entering the hospital and cannot help with patient care. -> Med students complain that they are clinically helpful and are chomping at the bit to join the ranks.
2. Medical students are strongly encouraged (even required) to help in some capacity. -> Med students complain that they should get free tuition, paid salary, exemption from working, etc.
 

Lawper

blockcats
Gold Donor
5+ Year Member
SDN Ambassador
Jun 17, 2014
43,402
121,023
Space Chat
forums.studentdoctor.net
Goes to show you can't please everyone.
1. Medical students are forbidden from entering the hospital and cannot help with patient care. -> Med students complain that they are clinically helpful and are chomping at the bit to join the ranks.
2. Medical students are strongly encouraged (even required) to help in some capacity. -> Med students complain that they should get free tuition, paid salary, exemption from working, etc.
What's wrong with giving med students tuition relief for helping out?
 

aSagacious

Moderator Emeritus
7+ Year Member
Nov 16, 2010
8,170
115
Status
Resident [Any Field]
What's wrong with giving med students tuition relief for helping out?
For the past 4 years, med students have paid tuition for the privilege of participating in clinical care (and often scut work). How is this any different? One could make the case that they're "risking their lives" but it was clearly stated that one could elect a role with minimal exposure.
 

Chromium Surfer

SDN Gold Donor
Gold Donor
2+ Year Member
May 24, 2015
1,338
1,135
Status
Medical Student (Accepted)

So all medical students in Massachusetts will now be graduating a month early (scheduled for April 17) based on the governor of MA request.

Crazy!
 

Lawper

blockcats
Gold Donor
5+ Year Member
SDN Ambassador
Jun 17, 2014
43,402
121,023
Space Chat
forums.studentdoctor.net
For the past 4 years, med students have paid tuition for the privilege of participating in clinical care (and often scut work). How is this any different? One could make the case that they're "risking their lives" but it was clearly stated that one could elect a role with minimal exposure.
Because the pandemic poses a uniquely challenging situation which schools don't know how to respond? If a school wants students to help out and students want to help with any task, clinical or otherwise, the least the school can do is give tuition relief for them.

As it currently stands, the students are threatened and forced to help at any case with zero benefits. That's exploitation at its worst.
 

aSagacious

Moderator Emeritus
7+ Year Member
Nov 16, 2010
8,170
115
Status
Resident [Any Field]
the least the school can do is give tuition relief for them.
No, the least they could do is let the students participate and be helpful, rather than kicking them out of the hospital.

As it currently stands, the students are threatened and forced to help at any case with zero benefits. That's exploitation at its worst.
It's not zero benefit. It's valuable clinical experience - the explicitly stated aim of medical education. Or at worst they're asking folks to do them a solid and man the phone line.

... and pragmatically speaking, healthcare systems are hemorrhaging finances right now. Adding fuel to the fire (even if just a small percent) isn't helping.
 
About the Ads
Jan 29, 2020
15
12
Status
Medical Student
My school already sent me information for my next required for graduation sub-i (virtual)

so maybe they’ll follow suit for those who have finished everything.
 

Naruhodo

2+ Year Member
Sep 5, 2016
265
239
I've been thinking this through though I still don't know the right answer. Many of us are having electives/sub-i's cancelled due due to COVID-19 and healthcare systems feeling like they can't take on students with PPE shortages, staff being overwhelmed, etc. As the poster above mentioned there are supposed to be some online 4th year electives (possibly a radiology course? EKG? Not sure of all the details). Then there is volunteering to be a part of the COVID-19 response team, which will satisfy clinical graduation requirements. Again, I don't want to be taking unnecessary risk nor taking PPE from others who need it, but on the other hand this is *the work* that we signed up for. Personally, I'm not yet heading for the frontlines, but I respect the decision made by classmate who are and I don't feel coerced by my school.
 

cookiegrub

2+ Year Member
Oct 8, 2016
101
28
Status
Medical Student
For the past 4 years, med students have paid tuition for the privilege of participating in clinical care (and often scut work). How is this any different? One could make the case that they're "risking their lives" but it was clearly stated that one could elect a role with minimal exposure.
so you're saying we continue paying tuition while we "help" in the wards..expecting our preceptors to deal with COVID-19 while teaching us during this stressful time? Nah man...If I was a student made to work in the epicenter of this outbreak, I would expect the school to atleast not charge tuition.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: FMDoge2020

Matthew9Thirtyfive

brush border
Administrator
2+ Year Member
Jan 11, 2016
16,381
25,320
Status
Medical Student
So current list-

Medical schools offering students early graduation:
NYU-Grossman
Weil Cornell
Boston University
NYIT-COM
Icahn Mount Sinai

Medical schools "volunteering" students with threats of not graduating:
Albert Einstein
USUHS is graduating early too.
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

brush border
Administrator
2+ Year Member
Jan 11, 2016
16,381
25,320
Status
Medical Student
Goes to show you can't please everyone.
1. Medical students are forbidden from entering the hospital and cannot help with patient care. -> Med students complain that they are clinically helpful and are chomping at the bit to join the ranks.
2. Medical students are strongly encouraged (even required) to help in some capacity. -> Med students complain that they should get free tuition, paid salary, exemption from working, etc.
Maybe I just missed it, but are you saying that students who did not receive all of the education they paid for should have to pay for rotations and clinical experience they aren't getting? I'm specifically talking about the schools that are graduating their students early. If you cancel my rotations for most of the second half of M4, and then I graduate early, why am I paying for an entire year of school when I got a little more than half?
 

aSagacious

Moderator Emeritus
7+ Year Member
Nov 16, 2010
8,170
115
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Maybe I just missed it, but are you saying that students who did not receive all of the education they paid for should have to pay for rotations and clinical experience they aren't getting? I'm specifically talking about the schools that are graduating their students early. If you cancel my rotations from March until May, and then I graduate early, why am I paying for an entire year of school when I got a little more than half?
Sorry for the confusion. Wasn't directed at your post. I was referring to those schools that suspended in-person rotations in favor of online modules, and later offered sub-i's with expanded responsibilities.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Matthew9Thirtyfive

Matthew9Thirtyfive

brush border
Administrator
2+ Year Member
Jan 11, 2016
16,381
25,320
Status
Medical Student
Sorry for the confusion. Wasn't directed at your post. I was referring to those schools that suspended in-person rotations in favor of online modules, and later offered sub-i's with expanded responsibilities.
Okay, that makes more sense. Totally agree with you there.
 

fldoctorgirl

M2 transplanted from the beach to the midwest
2+ Year Member
Feb 13, 2017
2,413
3,230
Status
Medical Student
What is the plan here for how any of these students graduating early are going to help? It's not like they're going to be starting residency before July 1st.
 

aSagacious

Moderator Emeritus
7+ Year Member
Nov 16, 2010
8,170
115
Status
Resident [Any Field]
so you're saying we continue paying tuition while we "help" in the wards..expecting our preceptors to deal with COVID-19 while teaching us during this stressful time? Nah man...If I was a student made to work in the epicenter of this outbreak, I would expect the school to atleast not charge tuition.
*shrug* Agree to disagree.

They're essentially asking their 4th year med students to operate like interns (which is the point of a sub-I): H&Ps, notes, orders, facilitating admissions and discharges. Sure, the table round discussions and walking rounds will be more terse, but there really is no substitute for clinical experience. The sub-I will have upper levels and attendings barking orders at them and they need to make it happen (and read about why later at home if necessary). Ask anyone who completed a prelim year in surgery what their didactics were like.

They've also made accommodations for those students who are uncomfortable on the front lines.
 

Lawper

blockcats
Gold Donor
5+ Year Member
SDN Ambassador
Jun 17, 2014
43,402
121,023
Space Chat
forums.studentdoctor.net
*shrug* Agree to disagree.

They're essentially asking their 4th year med students to operate like interns (which is the point of a sub-I): H&Ps, notes, orders, facilitating admissions and discharges. Sure, the table round discussions and walking rounds will be more terse, but there really is no substitute for clinical experience. The sub-I will have upper levels and attendings barking orders at them and they need to make it happen (and read about why later at home if necessary). Ask anyone who completed a prelim year in surgery what their didactics were like.

They've also made accommodations for those students who are uncomfortable on the front lines.
I'm just thinking that has more value in an actual residency setting than spending post-match MS4 year being forced into these situations and paying tuition on top of that.
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

brush border
Administrator
2+ Year Member
Jan 11, 2016
16,381
25,320
Status
Medical Student
I'm just thinking that has more value in an actual residency setting than spending post-match MS4 year being forced into these situations and paying tuition on top of that.
Which schools are forcing it?
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

brush border
Administrator
2+ Year Member
Jan 11, 2016
16,381
25,320
Status
Medical Student
About the Ads