NYU considering letting students graduate early for COVID-19

[T687]

Pretty sure that 4 years ago, most of yall wrote "I like to help people" somewhere in your application to medical school. Well, here's the opportunity to help people.

I think the PPE situation is a big factor in this. Fire fighters like helping people too but how many of them would pay money to go into a burning building without a respirator or bunker gear?

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[9blade]

I think the PPE situation is a big factor in this. Fire fighters like helping people too but how many of them would pay money to go into a burning building without a respirator or bunker gear?

That's a good point. I didn't think about the PPE situation

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

They linked it to graduation requirements?

I didn’t read the twitter but saying it’s voluntary seems to imply not.

 

[Mass Effect]

What's wrong with giving med students tuition relief for helping out?

I mean, I'm helping out and I don't even have a choice. Can I get reimbursement? MS4s should be graduated and not owe anymore tuition from the moment they graduate. They should also get an intern salary and full benefits if they help out.

 

[Lawpy]

I didn’t read the twitter but saying it’s voluntary seems to imply not.

Same thing being offered to Einstein students.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/edfc2e_9065c23bac10445889a7ccfec4d7955d~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_418,h_760,al_c,q_80/page1image25362064.webp

With a few key differences:

• It's mandatory for all students starting April 6th.
• Students are unpaid.
• Students still have to pay tuition.
• No early graduation.
• No early completion of residency.
• They are graduation requirements, so if you don't do it; no degree.

Getting stuck on above. Things can change but I think that should hopefully be reflected more clearly on here.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Getting stuck on above. Things can change but I think that should hopefully be reflected more clearly on here.

Yeah I dunno someone said on twitter Einstein said it was voluntary.

 

[deleted903608]

Einstein clarified to students today in a town hall that they are NOT being forced to volunteer and can still complete virtual online assignments for graduation credit.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Einstein clarified to students today in a town hall that they are NOT being forced to volunteer and can still complete virtual online assignments for graduation credit.

LOL

Expect that online assignments to be 10x more painful in order to push all students to the frontline NOW

The cat is out of the bag that the school and its admin don’t care about the students.

 

[cookiegrub]

*shrug* Agree to disagree.

They're essentially asking their 4th year med students to operate like interns (which is the point of a sub-I): H&Ps, notes, orders, facilitating admissions and discharges. Sure, the table round discussions and walking rounds will be more terse, but there really is no substitute for clinical experience. The sub-I will have upper levels and attendings barking orders at them and they need to make it happen (and read about why later at home if necessary). Ask anyone who completed a prelim year in surgery what their didactics were like.

They've also made accommodations for those students who are uncomfortable on the front lines.

agreed but don't like the idea that tuition is still being charged. That's my only problem with what's going on when we don't have proper PPE available.

 

[cbrons]

Unpopular opinion but I think this whole situation is rapidly becoming an insane, unfunny parody of itself. From the government-induced destruction of the economy to the panic mongering of the media-Facebook-Twitter conglomerate.

Three weeks ago, I was convinced my hospital was going to collapse under the weight of virus-induced ARDS. Instead the place is almost completely empty, save for the ER who has a constant stream of low IQ minimally symptomatic 20-40 year olds who 98% test negative and waste everyones time. I think we have like 4 cases total that have been admitted. Meanwhile we are literally destroying most large and small businesses in the state, and likely going to be knee-deep in a major depression before this is over. Makes me really wonder if the cost of these shutdowns will end up doing more damage than the virus.

 

[y123]

Unpopular opinion but I think this whole situation is rapidly becoming an insane, unfunny parody of itself. From the government-induced destruction of the economy to the panic mongering of the media-Facebook-Twitter conglomerate.

Three weeks ago, I was convinced my hospital was going to collapse under the weight of virus-induced ARDS. Instead the place is almost completely empty, save for the ER who has a constant stream of low IQ minimally symptomatic 20-40 year olds who 98% test negative and waste everyones time. I think we have like 4 cases total that have been admitted. Meanwhile we are literally destroying most large and small businesses in the state, and likely going to be knee-deep in a major depression before this is over. Makes me really wonder if the cost of these shutdowns will end up doing more damage than the virus.

Where are u?

 

[cbrons]

Where are u?

Mid sized academic program at a tertiary referral center in the midwest (not chicago or cleveland or detroit).

 

[T687]

The nature of the intervention is that the more successful it is the less necessary it will look to people.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I personally think it’s insane to send students into this without any PPE. Imagine being a med student and you know you won’t pass the rotation unless you’re seeing covid+ patients without any PPE. I could even see attendings/residents forcing students to go into their rooms so they don’t have to. We have literally no power to advocate for our own safety. Don’t want to risk your life? Then don’t pass.

 

[Lawpy]

Einstein clarified to students today in a town hall that they are NOT being forced to volunteer and can still complete virtual online assignments for graduation credit.

so post match MS4s can't graduate early like those in other NY med schools?

 

[kb1900]

I personally think it’s insane to send students into this without any PPE. Imagine being a med student and you know you won’t pass the rotation unless you’re seeing covid+ patients without any PPE. I could even see attendings/residents forcing students to go into their rooms so they don’t have to. We have literally no power to advocate for our own safety. Don’t want to risk your life? Then don’t pass.

This is already happening at the residency level. Resident does the real exam, attending does the eyeball exam from outside the door

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I personally think it’s insane to send students into this without any PPE. Imagine being a med student and you know you won’t pass the rotation unless you’re seeing covid+ patients without any PPE. I could even see attendings/residents forcing students to go into their rooms so they don’t have to. We have literally no power to advocate for our own safety. Don’t want to risk your life? Then don’t pass.

I agree with you, but where is this actually happening?

 

[GadRads]

Pretty sure that 4 years ago, most of yall wrote "I like to help people" somewhere in your application to medical school. Well, here's the opportunity to help people.

I don't believe the vast majority of healthcare workers want to help people at the expense of their own life. Should a soldier go defend his/her country without the necessary weapons? Should a fireman attempt to rescue a person knowing the probability of personal injury is high? It is essentially suicidal to help any at-risk/COVID+ patient without PPE. There's a thin line between heroism and foolish bravery. I did not go into medicine to sacrifice my life for someone else.

There are even debates on resuscitation of COVID+ patients who code due to risk to staff during CPR and limited PPE. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/03/25/coronavirus-patients-do-not-resucitate/

Hospitals weigh blanket DNR orders for coronavirus patients amid equipment shortages: report

As hospitals across the country face shortages of personal protective equipment due to surges of coronavirus patients, health care professionals are reportedly discussing the possibility of a do not resuscitate policy for infected patients to mitigate the risks for hospital workers.

www.foxnews.com

.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Should a soldier go defend his/her country without the necessary weapons?

No, but we do. When a missile hits your ship and people are going to die, sometimes you have to run into the fire without your gear on. If it is at all possible to have the proper ppe, then it is unacceptable to force people to see patients without it. But what happens if there isn’t any? Are you just going to let someone die?

 

[GadRads]

No, but we do. When a missile hits your ship and people are going to die, sometimes you have to run into the fire without your gear on. If it is at all possible to have the proper ppe, then it is unacceptable to force people to see patients without it. But what happens if there isn’t any? Are you just going to let someone die?

And what if the available healthcare workers become decommissioned due to getting infected? Sometimes you have to save yourself so you can help others.

Doctors are not martyrs. This assumption is often exploited by insurance companies and administrators who expect us to give and give and give. I believe this idealistic attitude is dangerous to our practice.

I am not sure how far along you are in your medical career, but I am sure this idealism will be tempered with more experience.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

And what if the available healthcare workers become decommissioned due to getting infected? Sometimes you have to save yourself so you can help others.

Doctors are not martyrs. This assumption is often exploited by insurance companies and administrators who expect us to give and give and give. I believe this idealistic attitude is dangerous to our practice.

I am not sure how far along you are in your medical career, but I am sure this idealism will be tempered with more experience.

I agree with you. We have to conserve resources, and doctors and nurses are resources (probably the most important ones). Like I said, if it is at all possible, then there is no excuse.

And I’m a med student, but I’ve been in healthcare for over 10 years including military. So I have a little bit of experience.

 

[Ho0v-man]

This is already happening at the residency level. Resident does the real exam, attending does the eyeball exam from outside the door

Where I’m at it’s the opposite because residents getting sick/quarantined means graduating later. Maybe when it really gets going in my area that’ll change.

I agree with you, but where is this actually happening?

Nowhere at the moment because we’re not allowed to be in the hospital. On a personal note, I’ve just heard too many rumblings from my administration-level friends that the real issue with this PPE shortage isn’t availability, it’s cost. Sorry, but not in the mood to die so admins get their bonus checks. That’s what we should all really be pissed about.

 

[Mass Effect]

Unpopular opinion but I think this whole situation is rapidly becoming an insane, unfunny parody of itself. From the government-induced destruction of the economy to the panic mongering of the media-Facebook-Twitter conglomerate.

Three weeks ago, I was convinced my hospital was going to collapse under the weight of virus-induced ARDS. Instead the place is almost completely empty, save for the ER who has a constant stream of low IQ minimally symptomatic 20-40 year olds who 98% test negative and waste everyones time. I think we have like 4 cases total that have been admitted. Meanwhile we are literally destroying most large and small businesses in the state, and likely going to be knee-deep in a major depression before this is over. Makes me really wonder if the cost of these shutdowns will end up doing more damage than the virus.

No worries. Come on out to NYC and we'll put you to work in order to make it seem more "real" for you.

 

[Mass Effect]

I personally think it’s insane to send students into this without any PPE. Imagine being a med student and you know you won’t pass the rotation unless you’re seeing covid+ patients without any PPE. I could even see attendings/residents forcing students to go into their rooms so they don’t have to. We have literally no power to advocate for our own safety. Don’t want to risk your life? Then don’t pass.

Any resident/attending who does that needs to be outed publicly, by name.

This is already happening at the residency level. Resident does the real exam, attending does the eyeball exam from outside the door

Shame on those attendings. Under these circumstances, patient lists should be divided between attending and resident if physical exam is necessary (I'm in psych so I opt for virtual visit if I don't need to physically examine the patient) and each should see their own patients. Attending eyeballing resident's patients from doorway is okay in my book as long as attending is lightening resident's load/risk by seeing half the patient by him/herself.

Nowhere at the moment because we’re not allowed to be in the hospital. On a personal note, I’ve just heard too many rumblings from my administration-level friends that the real issue with this PPE shortage isn’t availability, it’s cost. Sorry, but not in the mood to die so admins get their bonus checks. That’s what we should all really be pissed about

If that's true, it needs to be made public. Otherwise, it's just a rumor which is likely what it is. A secret that explosive doesn't stay secret this long. MGH was on national media this morning raiding their emergency stockpile. More likely, it's staff speculating that's what's going on and that's what you've heard rather than it being fact.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Nowhere at the moment because we’re not allowed to be in the hospital. On a personal note, I’ve just heard too many rumblings from my administration-level friends that the real issue with this PPE shortage isn’t availability, it’s cost. Sorry, but not in the mood to die so admins get their bonus checks. That’s what we should all really be pissed about.

So on the second point, I totally agree. But to the former, people are just tilting at windmills. No one is forcing students to work without PPE. No one is even forcing students to work.

 

[Ho0v-man]

So on the second point, I totally agree. But to the former, people are just tilting at windmills. No one is forcing students to work without PPE. No one is even forcing students to work.

Sorry if I misspoke. I’m saying it could
happen. We have no power to say no to anything.

I hope you guys are right about the cost stuff, but when it comes to admin, would you really be surprised?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Sorry if I misspoke. I’m saying it could
happen. We have no power to say no to anything.

I mean, could it really? I wouldn't be surprised if Einstein initially was planning on making it mandatory and then realized they would look terrible and changed their minds.

I hope you guys are right about the cost stuff, but when it comes to admin, would you really be surprised?

Not even a little.

 

[cbrons]

No worries. Come on out to NYC and we'll put you to work in order to make it seem more "real" for you.

But I’m not in NYC. And most of the country isnt either. Shelter in place makes sense on the east coast right now. But do we need every rural county with a shelter in place order? That’s my point.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

But I’m not in NYC. And most of the country isnt either. Shelter in place makes sense on the east coast right now. But do we need every rural county with a shelter in place order? That’s my point.

Yes. That's the point. If you wait until it's already there, it's too late.

 

[KnuxNole]

Yes. That's the point. If you wait until it's already there, it's too late.

This. Much, much better to be over prepared than underprepared. It's not that hard to be honest.

 

[allantois]

Einstein faculty should be redeployed to clinical care

 

[slowthai]

Looks like Midwestern actually made it 100% mandatory, unlike Einstein. Ready to see heads roll over this due to social media and class actions

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Looks like Midwestern actually made it 100% mandatory, unlike Einstein. Ready to see heads roll over this due to social media and class actions

View attachment 300019

Tasking you with updating the thread on it.

 

[slowthai]

Here's the actual email:

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Here's the actual email:

Huh. The way it’s worded it seems like it could be mando or not. You’d think they’d either just straight up say it’s required or voluntary. But they did say anyone participating would be in very low risk areas. Still kind of ****ty if it is mandatory.

 

[slowthai]

Huh. The way it’s worded it seems like it could be mando or not. You’d think they’d either just straight up say it’s required or voluntary. But they did say anyone participating would be in very low risk areas. Still kind of ****ty if it is mandatory.

"The two reasons a student would not be able to participate are that they will not be in the Phoenix area during Block 11 or they are in the at-risk population such as a chronic illness, living with someone who is over 65, or living with someone who has a chronic illness."

That sounds pretty mandatory to me, lol. It's unacceptable, honestly.

Edit: They can say it's as low risk as much as they want, I WILL NOT sacrifice myself because some administrator told me to.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

"The two reasons a student would not be able to participate are that they will not be in the Phoenix area during Block 11 or they are in the at-risk population such as a chronic illness, living with someone who is over 65, or living with someone who has a chronic illness."

That sounds pretty mandatory to me, lol. It's unacceptable, honestly.

“Based on the numbers that Abrazo is requesting and our effort to keep the amount of time on site for our students manageable, we are now looking to make the opportunity available for all OMS 4 students who are in the Phoenix area including Critical Care, Sub-specialty Medicine, Sub-specialty Surgery as well as those on an elective.”

Using the phrase “make the opportunity available” doesn’t sound mandatory to me.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

"The two reasons a student would not be able to participate are that they will not be in the Phoenix area during Block 11 or they are in the at-risk population such as a chronic illness, living with someone who is over 65, or living with someone who has a chronic illness."

That sounds pretty mandatory to me, lol. It's unacceptable, honestly.

And what you quoted could easily be interpreted to mean that if you want to take advantage of the opportunity, you can unless...immunocompromised, etc.

If it is mandatory, maybe they worded it this way to be able to double back if there’s a media **** storm.

 

[slowthai]

“Based on the numbers that Abrazo is requesting and our effort to keep the amount of time on site for our students manageable, we are now looking to make the opportunity available for all OMS 4 students who are in the Phoenix area including Critical Care, Sub-specialty Medicine, Sub-specialty Surgery as well as those on an elective.”

Using the phrase “make the opportunity available” doesn’t sound mandatory to me.

Honestly think that's just a slimy way of wording it, making it into an "opportunity".

 

[slowthai]

And what you quoted could easily be interpreted to mean that if you want to take advantage of the opportunity, you can unless...immunocompromised, etc.

If it is mandatory, maybe they worded it this way to be able to double back if there’s a media **** storm.

Yeah, they're probably attempting to cover themselves with the wording. It's disgusting honestly.

Now that I reread it, you could be right. I'll be monitoring the thread for updates to see if it's truly mandatory.

 

[ooh a bean]

Title is unfair to Einstein given the clarification they gave, but it appears Midwestern is about to get hit with some bad PR

 

[augeremt]

What is the plan here for how any of these students graduating early are going to help? It's not like they're going to be starting residency before July 1st.

Except they are. Licensing apps are being expedited and people will be starting residency before July 1st.

 

[Ducant]

So glad my EM rotation next month is virtual

 

[Ducant]

Except they are. Licensing apps are being expedited and people will be starting residency before July 1st.

Gonna assume that isnt universal amongst programs.

 

[Ho0v-man]

The more this happens the more convinced I am that schools are just trying to find a way to kick clinical students out the door. They’re used to pushing paper around and nothing else for clinical students while they collect a tuition check.

It’s just too inconvenient to educate students remotely so I guess they should just go die...

 

[emergentmd]

I am an EM attending of 20+ yrs and whoever is advocating that this is OK is out of their freaking mind. Voluntary without any adverse outcome, OK. Don't or you will be punished? Most already have matched and getting ready to plan for residency.

This CRAP is always a one way street. When they need you, they use the guilt trip to help out. When they don't and could make an extra buck, they screw you. If this was a two way street, I would be the first to jump in. But I have been through many financial battles, and these hospitals don't care about attendings more less med students. This is free/cheap labor b/c they are too cheap to pay for real help.

When they Triple the salary for attendings to come and help. When all Admin goes to the pit to help. Then we can talk.

What they want is for the ill prepared Med students to come in , be exposed to a poorly staffed/functional/infected PIT, and have Admin sit in their Top floor drinking coffee.

Seriously, if the CEO, CNO, CMO, CTO are pulling 12-16 hr days in the ER/ICU then count the med students in. They would do a much better job doing clinical/ancillary work than med students.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Einstein faculty should be redeployed to clinical care

Time to put those boomer slackers to work!

Or is the millennial gen still getting the slacker and soft label right now?

 

[emergentmd]

Any resident/attending who does that needs to be outed publicly, by name.



Shame on those attendings. Under these circumstances, patient lists should be divided between attending and resident if physical exam is necessary (I'm in psych so I opt for virtual visit if I don't need to physically examine the patient) and each should see their own patients. Attending eyeballing resident's patients from doorway is okay in my book as long as attending is lightening resident's load/risk by seeing half the patient by him/herself.



If that's true, it needs to be made public. Otherwise, it's just a rumor which is likely what it is. A secret that explosive doesn't stay secret this long. MGH was on national media this morning raiding their emergency stockpile. More likely, it's staff speculating that's what's going on and that's what you've heard rather than it being fact.

Cost is a BIG factor. A big hospital where I am at is making attendings find their own PPE. Anesthesiology buddies are making their own N95, reusing, reheating, stuffing AC filters b/c the LARGE Hospital system can't. But I know for a fact that they are avail and our group was offered it but at a high price/high volume. If you think $$$ goes away with a pandemic, you are mistaken.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Title is unfair to Einstein given the clarification they gave, but it appears Midwestern is about to get hit with some bad PR

LOL They’re screwing themselves right now. The thing about those students is that they have rich parents with ample law resources.

Any push from admin will start to get lawsuits pending soon.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Cost is a BIG factor. A big hospital where I am at is making attendings find their own PPE. Anesthesiology buddies are making their own N95, reusing, reheating, stuffing AC filters b/c the LARGE Hospital system can't. But I know for a fact that they are avail and our group was offered it but at a high price/high volume. If you think $$$ goes away with a pandemic, you are mistaken.

This is what I’ve been told. It’s definitely possible to get PPE, but it’s expensive especially at the rate it’s being used. Couple that with administrators telling docs/nurses they can’t get tested if they start developing symptoms, well it’s pretty obvious where their interests lie.

Don’t get a bonus if if you’re over budget.