NYU, Mt Sinai, or Columbia-Cornell??? Which PM&R is best?

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DonnaRehab

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Hey guys I am new to this forum, but I need your help. All input and opinions are greatly appreciated. My husband and I are entering the couples match and I wanted as much help as possible for choosing the right residency in New York. I'm going into PM&R and my husband is going into Medicine.
I've been going over the features of all three programs (NYU, Columbia-Cornell, and Mt. Sinai) but nothing makes me think one stands out from the rest.

Please help...I really appreciate it. Thank you.

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HAHAHAHA. Are you trying to bait us into a cat fight? You can search the past
threads where it's been discussed before, but some of it might be a little dated.
The best people to hear from are current residents at the programs you're
interested in, so New York residents on this forum should speak up about how
you feel about your institutions.

For my two cents, I would say if you can't tell what the differences are
between the programs, then there probably isn't much of one. In which case,
definitely go with the residents you liked best. Not because you'll be working
with them (because they'll mostly have graduated) but because different
programs seem to have different personalities, and I think it's really important
for your mental health to be around your own kind of people. I trained at NYU,
and my colleagues were basically my kind of people, which made the whole
experience much more pleasant ... even enjoyable.

Also, I feel like someone should mention that there are more than three
programs in New York. And I would include Long Island programs as well. But
I'm assuming that at this point you've already finished your interviews,
more or less. Which means if you only looked at NYU, Sinai and C-C then
those are the programs we should discuss in this thread.

I'll be interested to hear what current residents at the various programs
have to say about their own institutions.
 
Thanks for the response Karaoke.

I really am looking at only these 3 as my husband is doing the same.
I am by no means trying to start any fighting here...only trying to get some honest opinions about these programs as I really need it to help with the decision making process. I actually did go back to the old threads but as you stated...its pretty dated.

Thank you for your input...as I look back at my interview experiences I can definitely see myself getting along with NYU residents as well as some of the Mt. Sinai residents.

Anymore input as to the actual quality of training at these programs?
Strengths and weaknesses?
Level of happiness of the residents?
I would appreciate any and all opinions,
Thank you.
 
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All 3 programs have had major changes over the past 2 years, so it is hard to make an intelligent assessment of the three programs

Both NYU and Columbia have new chairs, and Mount Sinai lost a few significant faculty (Flanagan is now the chair at NYU, Adam Stein is now the chair at LIJ). Prior to losing Flanagan and Stein, I would have probably said Mt Sinai was the strongest program of the three. Now, I have no idea.
 
Hey guys I am new to this forum, but I need your help. All input and opinions are greatly appreciated. My husband and I are entering the couples match and I wanted as much help as possible for choosing the right residency in New York. I'm going into PM&R and my husband is going into Medicine.
I've been going over the features of all three programs (NYU, Columbia-Cornell, and Mt. Sinai) but nothing makes me think one stands out from the rest.

Please help...I really appreciate it. Thank you.

IMO - eliminate Mt. Sinai and look at the medicine programs of the other two. Go with the stronger. None of these programs are top tier for PMR. I'd eval the PMR program at Columbia-Cornell first, identify deficits or concerns, and if left wanting, take a close look at NYU.

I'd look for EMG training differences, call, how much inpt vs outpt exists and in what balance ( go for the one with more outpatient as an opinion only, unless its a well-heeled unit where you can get exposure to fully paid for and staffed rehab services.) What about prosthetics and amputee rehab? Any sports or pain exposure at all. EMG is a critical skill in my mind. How much elective time in either program? Sometimes important in marriage co-residency situations. Did I mention quality individuals who teach EMG as a factor? Do you get a shot at spending time with the PTs? That can be key if the program you pick has good ones.

I personally liked learning about rehab for folks with the various rheumatologic diseases, from hand therapy to post op rehab and splinting to understanding the natural course of the diseases and the rehab interventions and med management. Way cool stuff.

Good luck!
 
I can only speak for Sinai and Cornell
Mount Sinai – Has both Model TBI and Model Spinal Cord programs. Two beloved faculty members did leave recently because they were asked to be program chairs at other institutions. We have had new additions since then that have been a pleasure to work with (ie. Dr. Bloomgarden for our spinal cord unit… elkin’s award winner last year). I must be fair and admit that our inpatient months are perhaps tougher than the other programs you mentioned. There have been days that I’ve come home late due to the workload/late admissions, however I have never violated any work hour rules. It IS residency afterall, so you should expect to have some tough days. The TBI unit is milder than SCI. What really helps is that we get outside rotators through our department. I’ve always seen Long-Island-Jewish residents on our floors, for example, which gives us a nice breather and allows us to work with people from other residencies. I know we’ve had as many as 4 outside resident rotators through our floors at once. Dr. Herrera is the current program director and he’s young , energetic, and very easy to approach with any concerns. He and Dr. Sheth run the Sports/Spine/Pain clinic. I’ve talked about the other sites on other threads, most notably Elmhurst with Dr. Weissman, Dr. Bressler, and Dr. Fine (great mentors). Also of note, is our Bronx VA site where we get a lot of our hands-on practice with joint injections and such. We’ve had a recent change in staff here as well (for the better). As far as the residents, I actually, we all get along very well (although most often, rehab residents are pretty easy to get along with anyway). We’ve had a few resident dinners/potlucks/night outs (if you’re looking for that sort of thing). Even have gone out with some of the PTs/OTs/and nurses.
Cornell/Columbia – So my interaction with them has mainly been through the monthly NYPMRsociety meetings and meeting the residents. I have been told that they’re inpatient experience is a little less busy than ours. They do have 6 months of Consult Service during their first year (somebody correct me if I’m wrong). I’ve gotten to know the residents and they all seem to be happy where they are (favoring Cornell more than Columbia I believe….. once again, somebody correct me if I’m wrong). They also do have the Hospital for Special Surgery to rotate through. I think they’re program is great as well, but I’d rather have someone from the program comment.
You can Private Message me for any questions also.
 
I can only speak for Sinai and Cornell
Mount Sinai – Has both Model TBI and Model Spinal Cord programs. Two beloved faculty members did leave recently because they were asked to be program chairs at other institutions. We have had new additions since then that have been a pleasure to work with (ie. Dr. Bloomgarden for our spinal cord unit… elkin’s award winner last year). I must be fair and admit that our inpatient months are perhaps tougher than the other programs you mentioned. There have been days that I’ve come home late due to the workload/late admissions, however I have never violated any work hour rules. It IS residency afterall, so you should expect to have some tough days. The TBI unit is milder than SCI. What really helps is that we get outside rotators through our department. I’ve always seen Long-Island-Jewish residents on our floors, for example, which gives us a nice breather and allows us to work with people from other residencies. I know we’ve had as many as 4 outside resident rotators through our floors at once. Dr. Herrera is the current program director and he’s young , energetic, and very easy to approach with any concerns. He and Dr. Sheth run the Sports/Spine/Pain clinic. I’ve talked about the other sites on other threads, most notably Elmhurst with Dr. Weissman, Dr. Bressler, and Dr. Fine (great mentors). Also of note, is our Bronx VA site where we get a lot of our hands-on practice with joint injections and such. We’ve had a recent change in staff here as well (for the better). As far as the residents, I actually, we all get along very well (although most often, rehab residents are pretty easy to get along with anyway). We’ve had a few resident dinners/potlucks/night outs (if you’re looking for that sort of thing). Even have gone out with some of the PTs/OTs/and nurses.
Cornell/Columbia – So my interaction with them has mainly been through the monthly NYPMRsociety meetings and meeting the residents. I have been told that they’re inpatient experience is a little less busy than ours. They do have 6 months of Consult Service during their first year (somebody correct me if I’m wrong). I’ve gotten to know the residents and they all seem to be happy where they are (favoring Cornell more than Columbia I believe….. once again, somebody correct me if I’m wrong). They also do have the Hospital for Special Surgery to rotate through. I think they’re program is great as well, but I’d rather have someone from the program comment.
You can Private Message me for any questions also.

This is good info. On the emphasis on folks actually in programs, its a catch 22. On the one hand, of course residents currently in the programs have first hand knowledge. On the other hand the view is not always objective, or can't be for political reasons. Until a resident is board certified they are always vulnerable in my opinion.

So its good to have a balance of opinions. I thought your info on your program was good.
 
IMO - eliminate Mt. Sinai and look at the medicine programs of the other two. Go with the stronger. None of these programs are top tier for PMR. I'd eval the PMR program at Columbia-Cornell first, identify deficits or concerns, and if left wanting, take a close look at NYU.


Having interviewed at all three, Id agree;

New York Presby > NYU > Mt Sinai
 
Having rotated at Mt Sinai and interviewed at all 3, I ranked NYP in my top 5, NYU in top ten, and eliminated Mt Sinai from my list of about ten for now. In considering programs with excellent teaching and supervision, stable faculty, financial security, I'd say NYP is best among pack, but agree that none of them are top tied but I'd say NYP closest. Plus it had the best housing.
 
Thanks all for the input and opinions.
Rysa4 your comments were very helpful, thank you.
MSKMonkey thank you for the inside look into the program.

I am surprised though, at how obvious it appears to everyone replying, that Mt. Sinai is a clear #3 to C-C and NYU.
Mt. Sinai is the only model TBI and SCI system in NY.
My concern with C-C is that training will not be as "hands-on" as the other two b/c you'll be treating affluent pts who will want direct attending care.
Can anyone please confirm or deny this?
 
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rya, you're points are valid. Sure, coming from the program my views may not be completely objective, but I do feel strongly about the program and really don't understand the negativity I'm reading on these forums. In fact, when I applied for residency, NYU was not even in the picture for me. It was always between Mount Sinai and NYP-Cornell. I guess NYU has changed since then.

DonnaRehab, you must also take everyone's advice with a grain of salt and go with your gut. You can sometimes be a medical student that has a bad rotation at an otherwise great program. For example, When I rotated at Sinai, I had an amazing time (which is probably why I chose it over NYP-CC.. could have gone either way). There was another medical student at sinai that was rotating only through Elmhurst because she was part of a foreign medical school that only allowed rotations at that one location (as part of their curriculum). On top of that, she didn't seem to be rotating with the attendings that make Elmhurst a great experience. You can see how my experience and hers would be different. Impressions like this greatly shape one's views. RYA once stated that she had a bad experience in the early 1990s at Sinai and this would likely make her biased as well even if she's basing her opinion on other more recent facts/rumors. All in all, they're opinions. Go with your Gut. A hard-working residents will be amazing at any institution.

And if your worried over what you read on other threads about attendings misbehaving here and there. I can assure you that all of that is in the past and has been changed. Dr. Ragnarssan does a good job at implementing change quickly. Anyway, remember, you don't always know who is behind these posts. SDN keeps anonymity to an extent where a 10 year old could be posing as a resident. You seem like you'll do fine whereever you choose.
 
This is a question that most rehab residents have faced at some point and probably spent a good deal of time deliberating.

I would have to disagree with some of these posts and feel that the order is definately Sinai #1, C/C #2, NYU #3. While all these programs are solid, I have no doubt that you will get the best education at Sinai. Speaking from personal experience, the program has a little bit of everything.

1) Model system for SCI & TBI. Attendings are up to date and teaching has improved significantly over the past few years. There are urology rounds, journal clubs, brace clinics and plenty of opportunities for baclofen pump refills, botox injections etc. The SCI floor is also a site where patients are underoing implantation of phrenic pacers.

2) New and wonderful program director, Dr. Herrera. He is always available and is always trying to find ways to improve the program. Approachable and open to suggestions.

3) EMG/Elmhurst: The elmhurst site is very resident friendly. Supportive and knowledgable attendings. EMG rotation is amazing. No issues with getting your #s.

4) Bronx VA: MSK clinics provide tremendous opportunities for procedures. No call.

5) Elective: 2 blocks of elective = 4 months to do rotations where you want and fields that you find interesting. Again, no call.

6) MSK/Sports and Spine: Rotations with Dr. Herrera and his partner provide great exposure. Another time where you'll be doing lots of procedues (including hands on spine procedures). Learning from the best, your physical exam will be greatly improved after these rotations!

7) Residents: A real great group. No drama amongst residents. Everybody is friendly and supportive.

Overall, graduating from this program, you will be EXTREMELY well rounded and confident in your abilities. Everybody who has wanted a fellowship has gotten one for the past several years. And contrary to some of these posts, the residents are HAPPY!

That being said, if you're looking for a program where you dont want to put in any effort, this isnt the place for you!
 
My concern with C-C is that training will not be as "hands-on" as the other two b/c you'll be treating affluent pts who will want direct attending care. Can anyone please confirm or deny this?

IMO of all three, actually Mt Sinai sees the most "affluent" pts. Situated in the heart of "old new york," a lot of the money new yorkers/VIP go there for care. I find that in general throughout my training this subset of patients have been more entitled and less gratifying to treat, (and as you stated often demanded attending-level care) which was another reason I ranked the others above. I also think Mt Sinai has gone through a lot of changes in the last few years with the loss of prominent faculty who were leaders in their field.

According to another thread, their rehab dept has also had to recently dish out millions to settle wrongful death lawsuits in the rehab department and one of their residents was actually sued in addition to the attendings involved.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/investigators&id=6215788

Many years ago when I was in NY Mt Sinai as an institution was near bankruptcy.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=62688&highlight=mt+sinai+bankrupt
It was on the news but this was not related to their rehab dept in particular, but I believe the hospital overall. Mt Sinai as an institution I think is now financially improving but the millions lost in wrongful deaths in their rehab unit I am sure have strained the department.

Rusk gets a large percentage of uninsured, underserved patients, and many of the illegal immigrants are treated there. From what I have heard, C/C does too, particularly at their Columbia site, which is near Wash Heights.

I think it's important to choose a place that is solid. I dont think any of them are top top tier, but if I were geographically limited, I would definitely choose C/C over Rusk over Mt Sinai. Plus C/C carries a great name, and if you and your hubby are looking for nice Manhattan midtown housing, housing at C/C beat the other two hands down, in terms of market price, and location. In Manhattan, this becomes very important!
 
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Sinai does get a good share of "affluent/VIP" patients. However, in my experience, this has never posed an issue with care. Though they can be demanding, there usually aren't any issues with residents getting hands on care.

Also, I would agree with rehabdocmd about the importance of housing in NYC. Sinai does provide subsidized housing a few blocks away from the hospital. Apartments are BIG for NYC with low rents. There is also parking in several of the buildings if you have a car.
 
rehabdocmd... dont' know where you're getting your facts from. NYP-CC rehab definitly has more affluent/VIP patients than Mount Sinai. Granted this is what I noticed when I did a 3 day visit to their inpatient ward.

I have take care of many/most of my patients directly at Mount Sinai with the supervision of my attending. I get a lot of hands-on experience. Honestly, I don't know how much I can keep saying this.. haha..
 
In an effort to help out DonnaRehab,

Mountsinai proper has a mix of affluent/insured patients
still lots of hands-on
Mountsinai-elmhurst - huge minority/underinsured population
Bronx VA - VA patients.. lots of hands on
 
And if your worried over what you read on other threads about attendings misbehaving here and there. I can assure you that all of that is in the past

attendings misbehaving here AND there? I could understand an attending misbehaving here, but an attending misbehaving here AND there is concerning :laugh::laugh:
 
haha.. but that attending misbehaving is now probably misbehaving somewhere else since he's been "convinced to leave".... if you get my drift
 
MSKmonky - Thank you again for your inside look in Mt. Sinai and for clarifying the situation with the "misbehaving" attending and with the pt mix at all the rotating site.

Rehab - Thank you for your detailed response listing the positives of the program. You've made some really great points (along with MSKmonky) which have swayed me towards Mt. Sinai. However I have a question:
1. I know you stated that the # of EMGs is not a prob but how is the QUALITY of teaching in regards to EMGs. How are the attendings teaching them?
Thanks again
 
I haven't done EMGs yet (still PGY-2) however they're done at Elmhurst and the Bronx. Weissman and Bressler oversee most of the EMGs at Elmhurst and they are excellent teachers. We get weekly EMG conferences at Elmhurst taught by both Weissman and Bressler as well. upperclassman also get a fair deal of EMGs at the Bronx. I believe you get a total of 6 months of EMGs with room for more....
 
MSKmonky - Thank you again for your inside look in Mt. Sinai and for clarifying the situation with the "misbehaving" attending and with the pt mix at all the rotating site.

Rehab - Thank you for your detailed response listing the positives of the program. You've made some really great points (along with MSKmonky) which have swayed me towards Mt. Sinai. However I have a question:
1. I know you stated that the # of EMGs is not a prob but how is the QUALITY of teaching in regards to EMGs. How are the attendings teaching them?
Thanks again


The EMG rotations at Elmhurst (total 4 months) are some of the best rotations Sinai has to offer. The attendings are EMG board certified and fantastic. Its like getting hands on private tutoring. You will know your stuff inside out. Truly a teaching rotation where the #1 goal is resident education. We also have a 3rd EMG rotation at the Bronx VA which is combined with pain management. Again you are also working one on one with an attending. Good rotation overall but the teaching at Elmhurst is better.
 
As a current PGY-2 at RUSk who ranked this program #1 over Mt. Sinai, I hope I can offer you my perspective as to why here as compared to Mt. Sinai. First, as it was stated in a prior post the two huge pro's that Sinai had are now gone with both Dr. Stein and Dr. Flanagan leaving. While working with Dr. Flanagan as a student at Mt. Sinai and currently as a resident, I know what a great asset he is to the NYU program. Dr. Flanagan does weekly rounds on almost all the services at RUSK as well as post-rounds lectures. Second, the hands on experience with both EMG's and injections are great here as you are exposed to both during your PGY-2 year , and as an aside the instructors are great. Third, the mix of pts we encounter is vast; Bellevue serves the underserved and immigrant population, at RUSK we see a mix of affluent and medicaid pts, we rotate through both the Broooklyn and Manhattan VA, and lastly HJD which also hosts privately insured pts and some medicare/medicaid.
So why was I pondering Mt. Sinai vs NYU, my rotation at Mt. Sinai with Dr. Herrera was great and the oppurtunity to get a fellowship year with him was very appealing. In order to reconcile with this aspect which seemed to be lacking at NYU, I found out exactly what NYU has to offer in that realm of rehab, we do actually have oppurtunities at HJD as well as through a private office to see and do epidural injections that also offers a non- accredited Sports and Spine fellowship. Also if you are interested in pediatrics, we have the only inpatient pediatric rehab unit in the city.
The CONS here at this program are we have a huge program with many residents and it is easy to be overlooked, next our on call schedule is very heavy during our first year and light the next 2 years, and most of our attendings are NYU graraduates so there is a drecreased perspective as they all have the same training. With that said; at the end of the day, I decided a more well rounded program was a better choice for me and I'm happy being here.
 
I agree with the point RUSK makes about Dr. Flanagan. I had some exposure to him when rotating as a medstudent at Mt. Sinai (2 years back) however I realized how great of an asset he was. I bet he's really making a huge difference at NYU.

RUSK, do you ever get to rotate with the PMR-Pain docs at the Manhattan VA?? We had a part time Pain doc that now works full-time down there. I think the Manhattan VA is one of the only NYC VAs that does spinal cord stimulators...
 
When I was young and brash I would've jumped into this discussion, but now all I can say is it's really rather silly to boil it down to 1 > 2 > 3...
you have to choose what's best for you...

For example, a few of the attending faculty at C-C were graduates of the NYU PM&R residency program. The current fellowship/program director at Mt. Sinai was a former chief resident at C-C. How would these people say which one is 'the best" where they are now or where they trained before? Not to mention some of the new attending hires at C-C trained at other "top tier" programs including RIC, Spaulding, and UMDNJ.

As far as affluence there will be times you treat the wealthy and uptight, and times you treat the poor in any program. There is plenty of hands-on in the residents clinic at C-C, and columbia is not in any kind of affluent neighborhood.

I think it's wrong to say these programs are not top tier, unless you are talking about your own personal top-tier or rankings. These programs are within exceptional institutions which have numerous resources and clinical and research standards of excellence. Residents from these programs have consistently scored fellowships at other "top-tiered" programs including RIC, HSS, Upenn, VCU, etc. What are your criteria for "top tier"? Is it US news rankings ... "reputation" surveys, which are based on a subjective popularity contest? Is it model systems TBI/SCI and the size of subspecialty units,the hospital and therapy gym, which if larger, probably gives the resident some additional clinical experience, but after a certain point it does become redundant, and there is less time for independent study and research. Furthermore, a fellowship can provide more subspecialty experience if desired. Is it board scores/Elkins awards? The boards aren't necessarily well written if the SAE is any indication - see SAE prep thread - or even entirely based on evidence-based medicine. Furtehrmore, they are not a good measure of procedural, clinical acumen, physical exam skills, or communication skills, and really what it comes down to excel is ones own study skills and diligence.
 
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Hemisphere! you're one post away from a 100 posts!!
 
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