NYU probably just became the most competitive MD school in the country

[Dagrimsta1]

So med students, out of curiosity, if you had a free ride through med school, would you do Primary Care?

We'll know in 2023 if NYU's experiment yields results!

It won’t feel as bad making 200k when you’re not 400k+ in debt. Problem is, getting into NYU now is gonna be reserved for the most ambitious students who tend to specialize.

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[sunshinefl]

It won’t feel as bad making 200k when you’re not 400k+ in debt. Problem is, getting into NYU now is gonna be reserved for the most ambitious students who tend to specialize.

That’s the thing, everyone is going to point at these cases and say aha! People still won’t go into primary care even if we help them out with free tuition. But there are definitely confounding variables here. You’re taking a group that as a whole is the top, and wants to go into research, or sub-specialized academia or whatever else. You’re not taking a group that has interest in primary care but is otherwise burdened by high student loan debt.

Low student loan debt doesn’t ->sudden primary care interest.

But, on the other hand,

High student loan debt->barrier to primary care.

That’s my take on it anyway.

 

[nimbus]

NYU students who gravitate toward primary care do EM. It has been that way for decades.

 

[quincyfuturemd]

I think this is a publicity stunt. I also don't see how this is sustainable for very long by any means.

As others have said if the school really wanted to help debt long term or encourage primary care they could set up or amp up specific scholarships or programs. They could also just use the donations to lower tuition which has a better chance of being sustainable, but that wouldn’t make the news. They know with this announcement they now get top pick of students and that’s any medical schools main goal.

 

[DubbiDoctor]

I also don't see how this is sustainable for very long by any means.

It is sustainable because NYU donors, most prominently billionaire Ken Langone, are on track to contribute a 600 million dollar fund toward tuition scholarships for all NYU students into perpetuity. Money is a precious commodity - which is why most med students take on large loans with high interest rates. The scholarship fund will be invested, generating a return that in theory will cover tuition every year.

 

[sunshinefl]

It is sustainable because NYU donors, most prominently billionaire Ken Langone, are on track to contributing a 600 million dollar fund toward tuition scholarships for all NYU students into perpetuity. Money is a precious commodity - which is why most med students take on large loans with high interest rates. The scholarship fund will be invested, generating a return that in theory will cover tuition every year.

Exactly. That is the amount of principal they need to draw off interest only to cover the full tuition scholarships. It wouldn’t deplete because they wouldn’t ever dip in to the principal.

100 students/year x 4 years simultaneously x $55,000 tuition/yr= $22,000,000.

$600,000,000 x 5% interest= $30,000,000.

 

[Psai]

Exactly. That is the amount of principal they need to draw off interest only to cover the full tuition scholarships. It wouldn’t deplete because they wouldn’t ever dip in to the principal.

100 students/year x 4 years simultaneously x $55,000 tuition/yr= $22,000,000.

$600,000,000 x 5% interest= $30,000,000.

Except tuition goes up every year by a larger percentage than investment returns so this makes little sense.

 

[IMreshopeful]

That’s the thing, everyone is going to point at these cases and say aha! People still won’t go into primary care even if we help them out with free tuition. But there are definitely confounding variables here. You’re taking a group that as a whole is the top, and wants to go into research, or sub-specialized academia or whatever else. You’re not taking a group that has interest in primary care but is otherwise burdened by high student loan debt.

Low student loan debt doesn’t ->sudden primary care interest.

But, on the other hand,

High student loan debt->barrier to primary care.

That’s my take on it anyway.

The thing is - primary care can be VERY lucrative if you diversify - office procedures, urgent care, etc and work in a private practice setting. In places that are not NYC (and thus perhaps not the center of the universe for much of SDN) there are plenty of PCPs pulling in hard cash. So I dunno if the “free tuition = more likely to do primary care” holds up anyway. I would argue that those who want to actually do PCP work will do it anyway because they often know early on. It’s a little less certain for pediatrics I think because reimbursement is lower but at least for adult medicine it’s not bad.

I think that all this will do is make the school immensely competitive and set up an arms race amongst other schools of high caliber. Either way I’m not dwelling on it - I have plans to pay off my loans in a couple years after finishing my fellowship god willing and move on with my life.

 

[Goro]

Except tuition goes up every year by a larger percentage than investment returns so this makes little sense.

Remember that the cost of training students at an MD schools is NOT made up by tuition, but by the total of al the revenue streams. NYU can easily make more in indirects from R01a and R21s than they can from student tuition.

Hence, NYU can afford to train students for a long time, even without tuition.

 

[kb1900]

You could've inserted whichever US allo school of your choice and I would've had the same comment lol. We all have our shortcomings; the brainiacs just turn out to be the weird kids. Sorry if I hit too close to home.

have you ever considered that there’s enough “brainiacs” to fill a single class at NYU a few times over?


I don’t wanna derail the thread, but getting a high %ile score does not = being socially awkward. that’s just something people tell themselves to feel better. no different than the loser in sports saying they didn’t try hard enough. Its a loser mentality that implies you would have to give up x to achieve y - and you assume others do as well, but in all reality you may just be lesser than when it comes to testing

fwiw I’m just as salty as the next person for choosing another place over NYU . and my parents have been hounding me nonstop since the announcement considering my debt and loans. But nothing about students at these fancy schools ever struck me as any more significantly awk than expected. At nyu the preclinical students were definitely were fixated on finding out exam means and standard deviations though, which says a lot about the environment at nyu imo.

 

[nimbus]

I think this is a publicity stunt. I also don't see how this is sustainable for very long by any means.

As others have said if the school really wanted to help debt long term or encourage primary care they could set up or amp up specific scholarships or programs. They could also just use the donations to lower tuition which has a better chance of being sustainable, but that wouldn’t make the news. They know with this announcement they now get top pick of students and that’s any medical schools main goal.

So they devoted 11 years and hundreds of millions of dollars for a publicity stunt? Maybe they were inspired by the Cooper Union or Curtis institute of Music, both of which cover full tuition for all students since inception. Some people are cynical beyond comprehension. They can’t accept that goodness and generosity actually exists. It says more about them than NYU. If NYU becomes the top ranked medical school, it is because it deserves it. NYU did something great. I hope others try to emulate it.

Are the doubters arguing that this effort is not worthy? Do they have a better proposal?

 

[quincyfuturemd]

It’s a publicity stunt 11 years and hundreds of millions of dollar in the making?? Maybe they were inspired by the Cooper Union or Berklee School of Music, both of which cover full tuition for all students. Some people are cynical beyond comprehension. They can’t accept that goodness actually exists.

It’s just my opinion of the situation from what I’ve read so far. I don't know these donors personally or how good and pure their intentions are, it’s not about that. It’s not unfathomable to think people do things with some kind of gain for their reputation or the school in mind, these are businesses after all. It’s also possible to do things for what you see is the good of humanity and personal gain. It’s also possible to have a bad idea with good intentions. Not everything is black and white.

 

[takeurmeds02]

have you ever considered that there’s enough “brainiacs” to fill a single class at NYU a few times over?


I don’t wanna derail the thread, but getting a high %ile score does not = being socially awkward. that’s just something people tell themselves to feel better. no different than the loser in sports saying they didn’t try hard enough. Its a loser mentality that implies you would have to give up x to achieve y - and you assume others do as well, but in all reality you may just be lesser than when it comes to testing

fwiw I’m just as salty as the next person for choosing another place over NYU . and my parents have been hounding me nonstop since the announcement considering my debt and loans. But nothing about students at these fancy schools ever struck me as any more significantly awk than expected. At nyu the preclinical students were definitely were fixated on finding out exam means and standard deviations though, which says a lot about the environment at nyu imo.

Yea, there are definitely enough to fill a single class at NYU and more. They get spread out across the other schools.

Not saying that there aren't people who "possess it all" but that's the exception. Medical students in general are weird lol. Compound that on top of having to make the cut for a top 10/20 school, you don't really have much time to interact with normal people in a meaningful way.

It's more than percentiles. It's being so neurotic that you check every box perfectly; so perfect that you miss the forest for the trees. It's the reason why we have asinine posts about whether it's okay to swear in front of an attending (no offense to that person). Everything has become so formulaic with this population.

If that's not you, then cool, the post doesn't apply. This isn't a personal attack on NYU, it's a comment on the type of student that will now be considered competitive given the new change.

In my opinion, it doesn't breed the type of physician that "medical education" says we need (ie. someone who is able to relate to the patient)

 

[DoctwoB]

Except tuition goes up every year by a larger percentage than investment returns so this makes little sense.

Not really. Tuition has gone up by about double inflation, so 4-5% annually. That is also an artificial construct and doesn’t necessarily need to continue indefinitely.

However most large endowments have annual returns in the double digit percentage range, meaning they could cover tuition and grow the endowment most years, with the obvious caveat that it would take a hit during recessions.

 

[DoctwoB]

Yea, there are definitely enough to fill a single class at NYU and more. They get spread out across the other schools.

Not saying that there aren't people who "possess it all" but that's the exception. Medical students in general are weird lol. Compound that on top of having to make the cut for a top 10/20 school, you don't really have much time to interact with normal people in a meaningful way.

It's more than percentiles. It's being so neurotic that you check every box perfectly; so perfect that you miss the forest for the trees. It's the reason why we have asinine posts about whether it's okay to swear in front of an attending (no offense to that person). Everything has become so formulaic with this population.

If that's not you, then cool, the post doesn't apply. This isn't a personal attack on NYU, it's a comment on the type of student that will now be considered competitive given the new change.

In my opinion, it doesn't breed the type of physician that "medical education" says we need (ie. someone who is able to relate to the patient)

Once again, just because it’s hard for some to “check the boxes” and per a personable, empathic person doesn’t mean it’s the exception. My medschool class was filled with bright, accomplished, outgoing people who did very well both before and during medschool while maintaining a social life. It was the socially awkward ones who were the exception.

Belittling those who have had a certain degree of success does not become you.

 

[DoctwoB]

I will say, the responses to this decision are quite frustrating. No, eliminating the shortage won’t cause everyone to go to primary care (which is hardly a desirable outcome anyway IMO). That wasn’t even the goal, the goal was to minimize the burden of loans when making those decisions. Trust me, there are plenty of other reasons to avoid primary care. Yes there are more utility maximizing ways to donate a large sum of money, say to buy medicine or mosquito nets for 3rd world countries.

But this(these) particular rich guy(s) wants to use his money for this purpose, so good for them! There was nothing compelling them to do so. Likewise, many schools could use their endowment for tuition relief but choose not to, so NYU should be lauded for applying this donation directly to students, rather then adding new buildings or administration bloat. And if this applies pressure to other schools to keep costs down or add more scholarships or lower tuition, even better!

The ability of people to diminish the acts/generosity of others through “whatabboutism” is ridiculous. There will always be another cause that you or others feel is more worthy of other people’s money. Either put your money where your mouth is or just say thank you.

 

[Psai]

have you ever considered that there’s enough “brainiacs” to fill a single class at NYU a few times over?


I don’t wanna derail the thread, but getting a high %ile score does not = being socially awkward. that’s just something people tell themselves to feel better. no different than the loser in sports saying they didn’t try hard enough. Its a loser mentality that implies you would have to give up x to achieve y - and you assume others do as well, but in all reality you may just be lesser than when it comes to testing

fwiw I’m just as salty as the next person for choosing another place over NYU . and my parents have been hounding me nonstop since the announcement considering my debt and loans. But nothing about students at these fancy schools ever struck me as any more significantly awk than expected. At nyu the preclinical students were definitely were fixated on finding out exam means and standard deviations though, which says a lot about the environment at nyu imo.

Preclinical students everywhere want to know exam means and standard deviations. You're hating on a place you didn't even attend because you feel bad about your decision.

 

[kb1900]

Preclinical students everywhere want to know exam means and standard deviations. You're hating on a place you didn't even attend because you feel bad about your decision.

I was telling the other poster (re hater) that having high scores or standards doesn’t come at the cost of being socially awkward.

I explained why I chose a different school over nyu. I was there for undergrad and worked with medical students there for 3 years. I didn’t have to attend to know id miserable there. I still have friends there that I see regularly and all they can do is complain about the environment and pressure to perform. Maybe because it’s not true pass fail or people fixated on AOA? idk. Worth it for 250k of free tuition? Probably for 99% of people.

Does restating my and my friends sentiments make me a hater? If you say so, but I’m just providing some experience based insight into the environment at nyu. Not socially awkward. Definitely pressure cooker.

 

[quincyfuturemd]

It baffles me how personal people are taking questions, criticizism, or open discussion about the decision of an institution. NYU isn’t a single person and if you have something to say about it that doesn’t necessarily make you a horrible bitter curmudgeon lol. If the decision was really the best it should be able to be defended without ad hominems.

 

[kb1900]

Not saying that there aren't people who "possess it all" but that's the exception.

This is where we seem to disagree then. In my experience the people who constantly achieve have done so not just because of success in one domain (test taking). They are personable, empathetic and generally fun and easy to work with.

I agree with you that medical students are a bit weird here and there. But not “in general” and not in the sense of being socially awkward.

 

[radsisrad]

My experience has not been that top medical students are dorks with empty social lives. Think about the students from your schools who went for Plastics, Derm, ENT, etc.

True geniuses are often somewhat socially inhibited, but people who are "merely" really smart often "have it all", especially given that higher intelligence is correlated with increased physical attractiveness.

 

[sharkbyte]

Yea, there are definitely enough to fill a single class at NYU and more. They get spread out across the other schools.

Not saying that there aren't people who "possess it all" but that's the exception. Medical students in general are weird lol. Compound that on top of having to make the cut for a top 10/20 school, you don't really have much time to interact with normal people in a meaningful way.

It's more than percentiles. It's being so neurotic that you check every box perfectly; so perfect that you miss the forest for the trees. It's the reason why we have asinine posts about whether it's okay to swear in front of an attending (no offense to that person). Everything has become so formulaic with this population.

If that's not you, then cool, the post doesn't apply. This isn't a personal attack on NYU, it's a comment on the type of student that will now be considered competitive given the new change.

In my opinion, it doesn't breed the type of physician that "medical education" says we need (ie. someone who is able to relate to the patient)

What's your basis for even saying something like this? Do you know all the medical students in this country?

The idea that high achieving students are all weird, socially awkward people is kind of ridiculous IMO. I know a lot of people in my class who do really well in school and have very robust social lives. If anything, it's the high achieving kids who are in the library all day and don't have good social skills who seem to be the exception. It's basically the work hard, play hard mentality that you see in medical school that results in a lot of academically successful and socially active people. And what do you even mean by weird, anyway? Couldn't you replace "medical students" with any profession and call them weird?

 

[nimbus]

I was telling the other poster (re hater) that having high scores or standards doesn’t come at the cost of being socially awkward.

I explained why I chose a different school over nyu. I was there for undergrad and worked with medical students there for 3 years. I didn’t have to attend to know id miserable there. I still have friends there that I see regularly and all they can do is complain about the environment and pressure to perform. Maybe because it’s not true pass fail or people fixated on AOA? idk. Worth it for 250k of free tuition? Probably for 99% of people.

Does restating my and my friends sentiments make me a hater? If you say so, but I’m just providing some experience based insight into the environment at nyu. Not socially awkward. Definitely pressure cooker.

Maybe things are different now. I was there a long time ago but pass fail was awesome. Definitely not a pressure cooker. I had more fun in medical school than in high school or college.

 

[nimbus]

The idea that high achieving students are all weird, socially awkward people is kind of ridiculous IMO.

Agree. This is often stated and repeated by people who are not high achieving.

 

[twospadz]

So many people hating on the nyu med students in this thread.

 

[Luckyone1023]

Having recently completed M1 year at NYU, I can say that my classmates for the most part have a work-hard/play-hard mentality. Our class is treated to school-sponsored outings on a regular basis and we collectively celebrate after biweekly testing. Is med school challenging? Sure. Is our class comprised of ambitious individuals? Sure. Do some people stress more than others? Of course. But to describe NYU as a pressure cooker is simply inaccurate, particularly with all of the available diversions. And now NYU may well have claim to the happiest medical students!

 

[twospadz]

Having recently completed M1 year at NYU, I can say that my classmates for the most part have a work-hard/play-hard mentality. Our class is treated to school-sponsored outings on a regular basis and we collectively celebrate after biweekly testing. Is med school challenging? Sure. Is our class comprised of ambitious individuals? Sure. Do some people stress more than others? Of course. But to describe NYU as a pressure cooker is simply inaccurate, particularly with all of the available diversions. And now NYU may well have claim to the happiest medical students!

I think the ones that truly benefited the most are the M1s now. All other classes, for the ones who did get not get financial help assuming, have had to pay 55k a year tuition + 20k in living expenses (if they get no help from the family). But still a lot of debt with current students is going to be avoided which is good.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This is a really interesting development. I agree that this will be a huge draw to top students who might have multiple offers of admission. It will be interesting to see if other schools move to follow. I expect we may see some tuition decreases, if schools can't afford to drop to zero. Even if a school stays the same, there are plenty of students who will be willing to pay so no school is going to be empty over this.

Although I think this is great, what really upsets me is the "we are doing this so people will go into primary care or practice in underserved communities". That's completely ridiculous. If that's what you really wanted, then refund tuition after people go into primary care or practice in an underserved area (defined any way you want, because it's your money). Much less expensive and certain to be more effective. This is all about pushing NYU up the food chain of medical schools.

Edit:

I was vague. Give everyone at your school an interest free loan for tuition. Then, when training is completed, forgive 10% of the loan balance every year for 10 years when working in primary care / underserved. Everyone who doesn't fit that needs to pay back, with interest starting after residency/fellowship. Those that have to pay back help fund the future (since that gives you more cash in the long term). The forgiven loans will create a taxable event (I think?), or maybe there's some way to avoid that.

 

[ivybme]

I'm genuinely happy for NYU medical students who will get this full ride. This kind of steals the thunder away from Columbia funny enough, and I wonder if they will push from 100% financial aid to full tuition shortly as a result.

However, I predict that wealthy medical schools (think WashU, Harvard, etc.) will follow suit soon enough to catch up. Unfortunately, this kind of setup is going to create a set of few winners and a lot of losers in the medical school. Osteopathic schools and public state-run medical schools will not be able to compete now with the endowments of wealthy private medical schools. This is going to lead to hypercompetition at the top, and a lot of lower tier medical schools will have enormous loans, while being less adept at placing students into competitive specialties.

The cynical part of me feels like this points to a bigger problem that is occurring in American society as a whole. I can't help but feel like there are parallels to what we're seeing with consolidation of telecom companies, or large tech companies having the lion's share of the market. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer...

 

[wholeheartedly]

This is a really interesting development. I agree that this will be a huge draw to top students who might have multiple offers of admission. It will be interesting to see if other schools move to follow. I expect we may see some tuition decreases, if schools can't afford to drop to zero. Even if a school stays the same, there are plenty of students who will be willing to pay so no school is going to be empty over this.

Although I think this is great, what really upsets me is the "we are doing this so people will go into primary care or practice in underserved communities". That's completely ridiculous. If that's what you really wanted, then refund tuition after people go into primary care or practice in an underserved area (defined any way you want, because it's your money). Much less expensive and certain to be more effective. This is all about pushing NYU up the food chain of medical schools.

Edit:

I was vague. Give everyone at your school an interest free loan for tuition. Then, when training is completed, forgive 10% of the loan balance every year for 10 years when working in primary care / underserved. Everyone who doesn't fit that needs to pay back, with interest starting after residency/fellowship. Those that have to pay back help fund the future (since that gives you more cash in the long term). The forgiven loans will create a taxable event (I think?), or maybe there's some way to avoid that.

They also mentioned allowing people to go into lower paying specialties (not just primary care) and academic research, which this would help.

 

[takeurmeds02]

What's your basis for even saying something like this? Do you know all the medical students in this country?

The idea that high achieving students are all weird, socially awkward people is kind of ridiculous IMO. I know a lot of people in my class who do really well in school and have very robust social lives. If anything, it's the high achieving kids who are in the library all day and don't have good social skills who seem to be the exception. It's basically the work hard, play hard mentality that you see in medical school that results in a lot of academically successful and socially active people. And what do you even mean by weird, anyway? Couldn't you replace "medical students" with any profession and call them weird?

I randomly cold-called thousands of medical students around the nation

But no, I base it on my interactions with premeds, med students, doctors, and other interactions told to me. The word weird is subjective in and of itself, so if you feel differently than my original post, that's okay.

I won't even fully address the comments of me feeling jealous, being a hater, or an underachiever. Those are too easy of retorts. I don't typically measure my own self-worth against others (or at least not in the contexts of this discussion lol - we're all human right?)

Ruffled a lot of feathers, I see hahaha.

 

[nimbus]

Preclinical students everywhere want to know exam means and standard deviations. You're hating on a place you didn't even attend because you feel bad about your decision.

This is even more true in places that are pass fail. If you get an A or a D, you know where you stand without knowing the mean. In a pass fail system, people tend to want to know the mean. Still, my friends and I always repeated the mantra....”P=MD”

 

[NotAProgDirector]

They also mentioned allowing people to go into lower paying specialties (not just primary care) and academic research, which this would help.

Sure, but they could use the same plan to support those people. They could structure this any way they want, to support those goals.

 

[Foot Fetish]

While I don't think this move by NYU will pull in any more primary care aspirants, I will say that the only reason primary care is not more popular is the average salary. If family medicine paid ~$400,000, it would be just as, if not more, competitive as derm. They're actually very similar in many respects: outpatient, good hours, lower stress, procedures, etc. Although the baseline skill required to practice FM is not as high as that for derm, I would argue that achieving mastery of FM is actually more intellectually demanding given the breadth of pathology and pharmacology involved. To date, the most amazing physicians I have ever met were family medicine docs. The key to getting more people in it is simply raising the pay.

 

[WingedOx]

You’re all getting excited for what’s the start of the inevitable progression to full medical socialization.

Tuition is high because physicians in the states are well payed and can afford these loans. We’re becoming the European model of healthcare. If more schools follow suit, the government/insurance jockeys will not hesitate in dragging our compensation down into the abyss.

They'll do that anyway.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

While I don't think this move by NYU will pull in any more primary care aspirants, I will say that the only reason primary care is not more popular is the average salary. If family medicine paid ~$400,000, it would be just as, if not more, competitive as derm. They're actually very similar in many respects: outpatient, good hours, lower stress, procedures, etc. Although the baseline skill required to practice FM is not as high as that for derm, I would argue that achieving mastery of FM is actually more intellectually demanding given the breadth of pathology and pharmacology involved. To date, the most amazing physicians I have ever met were family medicine docs. The key to getting more people in it is simply raising the pay.

I think that's true, but only to an extent. I mean yes, if FM paid ortho money it would get awfully popular. But that's not what we're talking.

NYU tuition is currently 47k. Across 4 years with increases, let's just say the average NYU student ends up with 200k in loans from tuition alone. A 10 year loan at 8% is a monthly post-tax payment of roughly 2500. For the year that's 30k. Since its post-tax the pre-tax cost let's say is 50k.

Taking FM salaries from 200k to 250k alone isn't going to make a huge difference. Let's say it changes 2 peoples mind per class. At just NYU that's insignificant. If every school cut tuition enough that loan burden wasn't a huge issue, now we're talking.

 

[Goro]

This is a really interesting development. I agree that this will be a huge draw to top students who might have multiple offers of admission. It will be interesting to see if other schools move to follow. I expect we may see some tuition decreases, if schools can't afford to drop to zero. Even if a school stays the same, there are plenty of students who will be willing to pay so no school is going to be empty over this.

Although I think this is great, what really upsets me is the "we are doing this so people will go into primary care or practice in underserved communities". That's completely ridiculous. If that's what you really wanted, then refund tuition after people go into primary care or practice in an underserved area (defined any way you want, because it's your money). Much less expensive and certain to be more effective. This is all about pushing NYU up the food chain of medical schools.

Edit:

I was vague. Give everyone at your school an interest free loan for tuition. Then, when training is completed, forgive 10% of the loan balance every year for 10 years when working in primary care / underserved. Everyone who doesn't fit that needs to pay back, with interest starting after residency/fellowship. Those that have to pay back help fund the future (since that gives you more cash in the long term). The forgiven loans will create a taxable event (I think?), or maybe there's some way to avoid that.

I'm genuinely happy for NYU medical students who will get this full ride. This kind of steals the thunder away from Columbia funny enough, and I wonder if they will push from 100% financial aid to full tuition shortly as a result.

However, I predict that wealthy medical schools (think WashU, Harvard, etc.) will follow suit soon enough to catch up. Unfortunately, this kind of setup is going to create a set of few winners and a lot of losers in the medical school. Osteopathic schools and public state-run medical schools will not be able to compete now with the endowments of wealthy private medical schools. This is going to lead to hypercompetition at the top, and a lot of lower tier medical schools will have enormous loans, while being less adept at placing students into competitive specialties.

The cynical part of me feels like this points to a bigger problem that is occurring in American society as a whole. I can't help but feel like there are parallels to what we're seeing with consolidation of telecom companies, or large tech companies having the lion's share of the market. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer...

Can't speak for the state schools, but DO schools certainly can't compete now, even without NYU's deal.

Harvard and Stanford have endowments of something like one billion (with a B) dollars. My school? 0. we're terrible at fund raising! But we sure could do what the wise APD proposes. An interest free loan could be a big game changer for all medical schools.

We simply won't know if more NYU grads will go into PC until we see the 2022 match list!

 

[NotAProgDirector]

But we sure could do what the wise APD proposes. An interest free loan could be a big game changer for all medical schools.

It would be very difficult to do this without a big endowment. You need some source of $$ to make up for the loss of tuition up front.

If this becomes "popular", what will happen is that the top schools will all become "tuition free" of some sort, to compete with each other. This will create an incentive for other schools to decrease tuition -- those without big endowments won't be able to make it zero. This might lead to the interesting situation where medical school gets more expensive as you move down the "quality scale". The "worst" US medical school (however you want to measure it) could charge as much as they want.

 

[Goro]

It would be very difficult to do this without a big endowment. You need some source of $$ to make up for the loss of tuition up front.

If this becomes "popular", what will happen is that the top schools will all become "tuition free" of some sort, to compete with each other. This will create an incentive for other schools to decrease tuition -- those without big endowments won't be able to make it zero. This might lead to the interesting situation where medical school gets more expensive as you move down the "quality scale". The "worst" US medical school (however you want to measure it) could charge as much as they want.

CNU is safe then, I see.

 

[WedgeDawg]

CNU is safe then, I see.

No mercy

 

[Saifa]

.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

If I listen very, very closely in the distance I can hear libertarians cheering "the free market fixed it"

Only part of this thread I needed to read. Thank you, good sir.

 

[efle]

My predictions:

NYU yield will spike up. NYU peers that already have large merit recruitment programs (e.g. Northwestern, U Chicago, UCLA, Vandy) will keep expanding them and try to do the same. Hopkins/Harvard/Stanford will keep holding onto their need-only policies for ideological reasons for at least a while. And the vast majority of med schools won't really be affected because raising half a billion dollars to battle over cross-admitted students isn't an option.

In theory in the long run, the above will start to mean that being competitive for "top 20" isn't just about bragging rights and research resources, but also about dodging a quarter million dollars of debt.

 

[ohmanwaddup]

I've never felt worse about myself lol