Obama=socialism

[AbRKnight]

Dear student - so far I think that you enjoyed (maybe) to live on money hardly earned by your parents, so I suggest to don't try to educate people about taxes...Regarding the socialism I would like to remember you that doesn't work. If you believe that USA is the place for this system you are wrong. Before to give Denmark as an example I would suggest to take a sabatical there. Don't forget either that in Denmark and Sweden they import physicians from Germany - taxation is so high that MD-s prefer to take 6 months of unpaid vacation. Maybe in US we'll bring MD-s from Cuba. We made a huge mistake in Russia and other countries at the begining of the socialist movement - we didn't kill them all! We listened to rhetorics like yours and some of us believed that it will work out somehow. The result was 50 years of promoting mediocrity, food stamps and labor camps. If you want socialism go in Cuba. I came in USA because I love freedom - capitalism!

I realize you believe it is very belittling to someone to go out of your way to not refer to someone by their nickname but by "student" but you really have no idea what that person has done or how much money that person has earned in his or her lifetime. As far as..."We listened to rhetorics like yours and some of us believed that it will work out somehow. The result was 50 years of promoting mediocrity, food stamps and labor camps. If you want socialism go in Cuba." What was going on until you got your GOP hero GW Bush into office. Let the "student" refresh your small minded but big-headed "attending" memory, $150 billion surplus and paying down our national debt under Clinton. However, it went UP an average of 10.8% under Reagan,Bush,Bush. Our national debt went from approx 1 trillion to approx 2.6 trillion under the "conmservative" hero Ronald Reagan. Shall we open up the discussion to how much of our tax dollars are being spent in IRAQ? That was after all your boy spending your dollars wasn't it?

Or I could ignore this forum from now on and you can go on making over generalized statements about the problem being "food stamps and labor camps" that are in fact closer to propaganda or lunacy than anything making sense.


Then again those are just those pesky "facts," coming from another "student."
An aspiring doc who also happens to be employed as an intelligance analyst for the DOD.

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[pstone]

There is a difference between "misguided guilt" and a sense of reponsibility to help the less fortunate. Although I know it is easier to brush off by telling yourself it is "misguided guilt."

guys, you cannot reason with these people. its utterly useless.

somewhere along the way, they have basically decided an MD gives them the right to be arrogant, compassionless, sons of bitch's who think that paying a little bit higher tax rate for a few years is the end of the world as we know it.

im pretty sure if you want to move to new zealand, be my guest. dont let the door hit you on the way out. as far as im concerned, i love my country and the opportunity it has given me to not only become whatever i put my mind into becoming, but for also protecting me from those would would try to prevent it. How did my gov't do this? through the use of tax dollars and NEVER, EVER has the US gone to **** when taxes were raised and never have the levels been somewhere where they couldnt be changed later on.

btw, NOW the gop'rs want to say they think clinton was great. makes me sick.

 

[thegasman]

guys, you cannot reason with these people. its utterly useless.

somewhere along the way, they have basically decided an MD gives them the right to be arrogant, compassionless, sons of bitch's who think that paying a little bit higher tax rate for a few years is the end of the world as we know it.

im pretty sure if you want to move to new zealand, be my guest. dont let the door hit you on the way out. as far as im concerned, i love my country and the opportunity it has given me to not only become whatever i put my mind into becoming, but for also protecting me from those would would try to prevent it. How did my gov't do this? through the use of tax dollars and NEVER, EVER has the US gone to **** when taxes were raised and never have the levels been somewhere where they couldnt be changed later on.

btw, NOW the gop'rs want to say they think clinton was great. makes me sick.

No I don't think Clinton was great. He was a lying scumbag. But economically he had the right idea more so than many other dems.

 

[thegasman]

guys, you cannot reason with these people. its utterly useless.

somewhere along the way, they have basically decided an MD gives them the right to be arrogant, compassionless, sons of bitch's who think that paying a little bit higher tax rate for a few years is the end of the world as we know it.

im pretty sure if you want to move to new zealand, be my guest. dont let the door hit you on the way out. as far as im concerned, i love my country and the opportunity it has given me to not only become whatever i put my mind into becoming, but for also protecting me from those would would try to prevent it. How did my gov't do this? through the use of tax dollars and NEVER, EVER has the US gone to **** when taxes were raised and never have the levels been somewhere where they couldnt be changed later on.

btw, NOW the gop'rs want to say they think clinton was great. makes me sick.

I don't want my taxes increased because I am having enough trouble supporting my family, making all my loan and credit card payments from residency, and I don't support how a lot of the money will be used. If I thought they would do something worthwhile, I might feel differently. I don't give a dam about Nancy Pelosi's stupid california mouse or any of that other crap. I think some infrastructure and government assistance is necessary, But the stimulus bill was one big porkfest - why don't they just throw our money down the toilet. And by taking more money away from businesses and people who would contribute to the economy this type intervention will probably make the economy WORSE, not better. There will be LESS jobs because no one will have any extra cash to pay employees because uncle sam is taking it all. And it is not political propaganda - read some history or econ instead of believing the mainstream media.

 

[igottaquestion]

Did anybody else notice he said the words "Property right" and "police" in the same sentence? And all in the context of taxing the rich to pay for free healthcare for all?? HAHAHA!!

You crack me up, seriously. You just don't have a clue how anything works. It's hard to discuss the issues with anybody who thinks we can just bridge the health care gap with FMG's/IMG's until we have enough benevolent dr's here in america who are willing to work their butt's off on the cheap.

are you serious??

this is a sad attempt to dodge the issue. so once again: you claimed that all things which are rights must be cost-free. do you believe that americans have a right to private property? if so, then to be consistent with your other claim, you would need to defend the position that in order for private property to be a right we cannot pay for police, courts, and other institutions to protect that right. i don't think you can defend your logic, but it would entertain me to see you try.

given the cut-throat nature of med school competition among highly qualified applicants now, and the fmgs who gladly come to this country to work as docs in the low end of six figures, the burden is clearly on you to explain how all docs getting paid at the low end of six figures would result in a crisis.

 

[igottaquestion]

guys, you cannot reason with these people. its utterly useless.

somewhere along the way, they have basically decided an MD gives them the right to be arrogant, compassionless, sons of bitch's who think that paying a little bit higher tax rate for a few years is the end of the world as we know it.

im pretty sure if you want to move to new zealand, be my guest. dont let the door hit you on the way out. as far as im concerned, i love my country and the opportunity it has given me to not only become whatever i put my mind into becoming, but for also protecting me from those would would try to prevent it. How did my gov't do this? through the use of tax dollars and NEVER, EVER has the US gone to **** when taxes were raised and never have the levels been somewhere where they couldnt be changed later on.

btw, NOW the gop'rs want to say they think clinton was great. makes me sick.

they won't move to new zealand, because despite the taxes they're still better off here. all they have are idle threats, motivated by the desperation of defending their high salaries. they think a progressive tax means the middle class and below are feeling too entitled, which threatens their own sense of entitlement to the high six-figure incomes they were apparently "promised" at the time they entered medicine. they celebrate free markets as long as you're not referring to health care labor markets. they choose as examples welfare freeloaders, ignoring the working poor and the middle class who work hard and have it much worse than they do. they can't fathom the concept that if everybody in the country worked as hard as they do, that would mean we would have a lot of hard working cashiers making minimum wage; that the economy can't magically expand to accommodate everyone in to skilled, well-paying jobs let alone provide the training for them. they'll stand in the way of single-payer to try to get back to the golden age, and if they get their way it will just mean sharing a smaller pie with the same third-party insurers and dealing with the same reimbursement headaches.

in short, you're right: there is no reasoning with amoral greed.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Jeff05,
You seem like a bright guy who would enjoy this movie. If you haven't seen it yet, check it out. It bombed in theaters but has a cult following. It was done by Mike Judge who did Office Space, King of the Hill and Beavis and Butthead. It discusses the fall of our civilization from a pretty humorous and sad point of view.

Enjoy it! Keep in mind, it is low budget and certainly not Oscar worthy, but the ideas are entertaining. Keep this thread in mind when you watch the part where he goes to see the doctor of the future.

 

[soupcan]

guys, you cannot reason with these people. its utterly useless.

Maybe it has more to do with your "reasoning" technique than the inability of "these people" to be reasoned with.

...they have basically decided an MD gives them the right to be arrogant, compassionless, sons of bitch's...

...greedy *****holes... $hitting bricks because they might have to pay 4% more in taxes wtf@!#...

...what was the first major job you had before medicine? what did it pay? ok so shut the **** up.
...

...im gonna take the liberty to assume your an ignorant bigot...

...cmon, reply. it cant be that easy to cause ownage. i wanna hear what the broken gop has to say...

I think this demonstrates a fundamental problem with attempting to have a political debate or discussion on a message board, or really in any medium today. As soon as it starts, the gloves come off and instead of listening or considering opposing viewpoints, the discussion turns into name calling and finger pointing.

 

[pd4emergence]

they won't move to new zealand, because despite the taxes they're still better off here. all they have are idle threats, motivated by the desperation of defending their high salaries. they think a progressive tax means the middle class and below are feeling too entitled, which threatens their own sense of entitlement to the high six-figure incomes they were apparently "promised" at the time they entered medicine. they celebrate free markets as long as you're not referring to health care labor markets. they choose as examples welfare freeloaders, ignoring the working poor and the middle class who work hard and have it much worse than they do. they can't fathom the concept that if everybody in the country worked as hard as they do, that would mean we would have a lot of hard working cashiers making minimum wage; that the economy can't magically expand to accommodate everyone in to skilled, well-paying jobs let alone provide the training for them. they'll stand in the way of single-payer to try to get back to the golden age, and if they get their way it will just mean sharing a smaller pie with the same third-party insurers and dealing with the same reimbursement headaches.

in short, you're right: there is no reasoning with amoral greed.

Ok, right now you can afford your views. At some point you will finish med school, residency and will be be out practicing medicine. I hate to say it but you will never work harder in med school and residency than you do out in practice especially if you chose to go the private practice route. Currently I have no real complaints. I work hard and I do well. 39.6% is ok with me as long as every one else is having to pay the same. It is unfair for me (because I make over a certain amount) to have to pay more of a proportion of my income to whatever programs our elected officials in washington decide are worthy of our tax dollars. Who are they to decide at what income level is "rich". Also, I just don't trust those idiots (both republicans and democrats) to be good stewards of my hard earned money. But unfortunately, a fair balanced tax system is far off. My big question is why is there income brackets at all. It really is not that hard. Come up with a percentage that is adequate, stop all the special deduction crap and special treatment of certain entities (yes I am talking about corporate taxes and capital gains). If you make money on something they you pay the tax. Our tax code has gotten so complicated that you have to have a special computer program, or a tax preparer, or be a "tax lawyer" to be able to file a simple tax return. That is a shame. I bet the number will be around 20-25%.

As for people looking at moving, It won't start happening now. You are correct. But at some point, due to our elected officials meddling, I am afraid reimbursement will get to the point that people stop taking medicare and medicaid because it will not be feasible from a business perspective. If a single payer system emerges from all this mess, the reimbursements will either be set a fair amount or they will be set low enough that people start flocking enmasse to work for the VA or academia. It will just not be worth it to work your ass off in private practice and not get compensated. You will still see some that try to tough it out but in the end all things being equal people look at their hours vs. amount of money made. Right now in most places there is a big gap between academic salaries and private practice. As that gap shrinks, academic jobs will disappear. Once those jobs are filled and people look at the prospect of working their ass off for a salary that is comparable to ones in other countries where the hours are generally better that is when you will see people start moving.

As for feeling entitled, I do feel entitled to being payed fairly and not being taxed unfairly. If at my current job I feel I am not being adequately compensated for what I do I will either find a way that I am or I will find another job with different dynamics (ie better hours or better job satisfaction).

On a different note, I am glad I am a physician and not in the financial industry. At the end of the day people will always need medical care and I do enjoy what I do. A parting quote.

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
​

 

[igottaquestion]

i would be very happy to see the moderator of this sub-forum consistently send blatantly political threads such as this (which seem to always have a right-of-center message, hmm . . .) to the "lounge" or a more appropriate forum. who is the moderator, and why aren't they doing this?

 

[soupcan]

I have a conservative (read libertarian) view so I will clarify some issues for the more liberal readers:

Not everyone who is conservative thinks Bush made good decisions. In fact, true fiscal conservatives think he made very poor decisions. In my opinion, Obama is making bad decisions worse, and at a ridiculous pace. What we should be doing is reversing that trend. Spend less. Encourage growth through incentives to wage earners and small business. Stop with the pork-barrel spending! Have some accountability in government. Don't bail out anybody, and I mean anybody. If a business makes bad decisions, let them fail. If a person bought more house than they can afford, then they should be foreclosed on. We can't be the safety net for everyone. Where is the personal responsibility?

Conservatives don't hate poor people. In fact many conservatives were/are poor - me included. Speaking for myself, I completely believe in giving people a helping hand. I do think that the helping hand should be in a temporary form, giving people a chance to get back on their feet and become productive members of society. Long term welfare without job placement or deadline leads to dependence, which I feel is something we can all agree is bad. I also agree with Ayn Rand's position in that when I help people out, I want it to be from my own free will, not the will of someone else forced upon me... and no, that does not make me arrogant or uncompassionate, it just means that I am in control of my own actions.

Conservatives are not racist or bigots. This should go without saying: Calling someone a racist based only on their generic political beliefs is an inherently racist statement.

The desire to keep the money you earn does not make you greedy. I would argue that it makes you logical.

Universal healthcare would be great. If we could wave our hands and create universal coverage, as a country we would be better off. The problem lies in the details. How can you create universal coverage without bankrupting our country or jeopardizing the quality of care? Who pays for it and at what cost? And what about Tort reform? I don't see a way that you can decrease the cost of healthcare in this country without serious changes to the medicolegal environment.

Out of all of the replies, I haven't seen one that addressed a liberal stance on the idea of consumption tax. Would anyone care to address it? I think it is a tremendous idea and extremely fair. It does not have the disincentives of a graduated income tax. It encourages saving and fiscal responsibility at the individual level, which the government may not like, but is precisely what we need.

Finally, what do you think the long term consequences are of increasing the financial burden on the people who already bear the brunt of funding this country? For the record, the top 5% of wage earners (>$153K) paid over 60% of the income tax in this country although they made just 35% of the total adjusted gross income (2006 data). How much tax burden is enough for this group? 70%? 80%? I would honestly like to know.

And please, before you write out a reply about what a war mongering, racist, seal clubbing, Bush-loving a**hole I am, take a moment to think about having a constructive conversation, maybe even provide your own thoughts on tax burden, or consumption tax, or how to fund healthcare. You never know, we might actually have get a decent exchange of ideas going on here.

 

[soupcan]

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
​

That is a scary, and very relevant thought.

 

[proman]

Two books everyone should read is Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville (who may have say the above quote-no one is sure) and The Social Transformation of American Medicine by Paul Starr (won the 1984 Pulitzer Prize).

 

[circulus vitios]

guys, you cannot reason with these people. its utterly useless.

somewhere along the way, they have basically decided an MD gives them the right to be arrogant, compassionless, sons of bitch's who think that paying a little bit higher tax rate for a few years is the end of the world as we know it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123561551065378405.html

Cliffs:

But let's not stop at a 42% top rate; as a thought experiment, let's go all the way. A tax policy that confiscated 100% of the taxable income of everyone in America earning over $500,000 in 2006 would only have given Congress an extra $1.3 trillion in revenue. That's less than half the 2006 federal budget of $2.7 trillion and looks tiny compared to the more than $4 trillion Congress will spend in fiscal 2010. Even taking every taxable "dime" of everyone earning more than $75,000 in 2006 would have barely yielded enough to cover that $4 trillion.

Raising income taxes on the highest bracket won't even begin to cover his spending sprees.

Here's another quote of him justifying a higher capital gains tax.

Well, you know, I haven't given a firm number. Here's my belief, that we can't go back to some of the, you know, confiscatory rates that existed in the past that distorted sound economics. And I certainly would not go above what existed under Bill Clinton, which was 28 percent. I would—and my guess would be it would be significantly lower than that. I think that we can have a capital gains rate that is higher than 15 percent. If it—and if it, you know—when I talk to people like Warren Buffett or others and I ask them, you know, what's—how much of a difference is it going to be if it's 20 or 25 percent, they say, look, if it's within that range, then it's not going to distort, I think, economic decision making.

His entire basis for raising taxes is that he thinks it's fair. He completely ignores the data showing that raising taxes on the highest income tax bracket won't even begin to cover his idiotic spending spree, and that raising capital gains taxes does not increase revenue. But then again, who needs reason when you have HOPE AND CHANGE™?

 

[psychbender]

There is a difference between "misguided guilt" and a sense of reponsibility to help the less fortunate. Although I know it is easier to brush off by telling yourself it is "misguided guilt."

I believe that it is misguided guilt if you feel that you are obligated to help, and if others feel that they are obligated to be helped by you. I have a sense of responsibility to help others. It is what has driven me to volunteer thousands of hours of my precious time in service to my community. I do it not because I will receive some form of financial recompense, not because I feel guilty that others have it worse off than me, I do it because I want to help. I CHOOSE to help because I have considered the options, and decided to aid others where possible. If I decide later that I no longer wish to help, then I will stop, and no one should attempt to coerce me to resume.

Pstone, the only one here that cannot be argued with because it is utterly useless, is you. Please re-read this entire thread (or, just read over your highlights, as shown by soupcan) and see that you are the one being an arrogant son of a bitch. You are the one that is arguing out of arrogance and bigotry, not the rest of us. Please take a deep breath, find some other avenue to spew your venom, then sit down and compose a thoughtful reply to the points brought up here, with sound logical reasoning for why your position holds more merit that ours. Or, you could just say **** you, *******. The choice is yours, but I hope you choose the former.

 

[surgicalskills]

pstone,

Do a residency and then tell me you still have the same beliefs. Let me tell you what it feels like to be in residency, especially in a surgical residency. It feels like you are a servant and everyone wants to get you. Some days, you're so tired that you wished to fall onto your bed and sleep forever. You wish you could scream from the top of your lung at the *******s around you. You wish you could get paid more, were valued more, held to a higher esteem. You wish residency was more efficient so you wouldn't have to do it for so many years. You wish it was over day after day. The, when you finish, you wish your salary as an attending wasn't in constant jeopardy of being diminished. No other job in the world, as far as I know, deals with the same issue. Why is it that WE have to face lower salaries but others in society don't. Help me understand that. Better yet, save it. I don't want to hear from someone green behind the ears.

 

[surgicalskills]

By the way, if we are to have socialized medicine like Norway, then, let's go all the way. I want my $250K+ loans paid off including the interests. It's only fair.

Anyone who is interested, watch "Sick around the World" on Frontline (PBS) website. See what has happened to doctor's salaries in Germany and why they have protested in the streets numerous times. There are a whole lot of points about socialized medicine that are not discussed here. We have to be educated enough in these matters before we can discuss them. I don't mind having socialized medicine, as long as doctor's salaries are protected.
Watch the show. It will be enlightening.

 

[2win]

I realize you believe it is very belittling to someone to go out of your way to not refer to someone by their nickname but by "student" but you really have no idea what that person has done or how much money that person has earned in his or her lifetime. As far as..."We listened to rhetorics like yours and some of us believed that it will work out somehow. The result was 50 years of promoting mediocrity, food stamps and labor camps. If you want socialism go in Cuba." What was going on until you got your GOP hero GW Bush into office. Let the "student" refresh your small minded but big-headed "attending" memory, $150 billion surplus and paying down our national debt under Clinton. However, it went UP an average of 10.8% under Reagan,Bush,Bush. Our national debt went from approx 1 trillion to approx 2.6 trillion under the "conmservative" hero Ronald Reagan. Shall we open up the discussion to how much of our tax dollars are being spent in IRAQ? That was after all your boy spending your dollars wasn't it?

Or I could ignore this forum from now on and you can go on making over generalized statements about the problem being "food stamps and labor camps" that are in fact closer to propaganda or lunacy than anything making sense.


Then again those are just those pesky "facts," coming from another "student."
An aspiring doc who also happens to be employed as an intelligance analyst for the DOD.

They don't pay very well at DOD, right? You are an"intelligence" analyst??? Now I am REALLY concerned about the future of this country!

 

[Jeff05]

in the last 30 years there has been more than 10 TRILLION dollars redistributed to help the less fortunate. the liberals have good feelings in their hearts, but have made horrible decisions about how to "help" those less fortunate. what they have, in fact, is created is a large category of people who DEPEND on them and EXPECT help. their message is not "yes, you can" it is "you can't. and we're gonna help you. and with our help, maybe you can"
nothing disrupts the human ambition and will more than paternalistic control.

by the way, fortune has NOTHING to do with anything. i am NOT where i am because of luck. the vast working majority of the "HENRY" class are not where they are because of luck. it's through decades of dedication and very hard work. no one is saying that people who don't make as much money don't work hard. they DO. but, why does that mean that we need to take money from those who make more and give it to those that make less?
again, that system has blatantly failed and is responsible for the RUINS of modern day eastern europe (a place with natural resources, farm land, production capacity and highly educated populations that rival the US).

There is a difference between "misguided guilt" and a sense of reponsibility to help the less fortunate. Although I know it is easier to brush off by telling yourself it is "misguided guilt."

 

[Broken Ankles]

By the way, if we are to have socialized medicine like Norway, then, let's go all the way. I want my $250K+ loans paid off including the interests. It's only fair.

Anyone who is interested, watch "Sick around the World" on Frontline (PBS) website. See what has happened to doctor's salaries in Germany and why they have protested in the streets numerous times. There are a whole lot of points about socialized medicine that are not discussed here. We have to be educated enough in these matters before we can discuss them. I don't mind having socialized medicine, as long as doctor's salaries are protected.
Watch the show. It will be enlightening.

that frontline show is very interesting. apparently, docs in germany had it pretty good until new health care policy slashed salaries in the 90s. after watching the show, i found this article on the web

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,399537,00.html

which highlights the migration of german docs to greener pastures, the US number 1 and britain number 2. with the way things are headed, i don't think the US will be the first choice destination for much longer.

 

[chippedtoof]

by the way, fortune has NOTHING to do with anything.

I'm guessing you've never been afflicted with a horrible condition or been maimed such that you couldn't achieve your goals? No loved-one similarly affected where it altered your life drastically? For the people that have been affected, how did they earn their fate?

Or I'm guessing that you've somehow dodged plummeting stock/portfolio values and have attributed the losses of other people to actions deserving of such fate?

Hard work increases your chances, but nothing in life is a guarantee.

I'm not a fan of the tax code (I've been fully victimized by amt, high rates, and deduction phase out - which btw start at ~150K... I don't even know how much remains by 250K with previous tax laws. Amt is what is killing those HENRYs) but I'd like to think I understand why progressive taxation is considered necessary.

It's an oversimplification but: if you are decently well off in this society, what would you spend to maintain the stability of this society? I'd say the richer you are, the more you'd like things to stay the same, while the poor wouldn't invest much in keeping the status quo.

I'd like to hear more about the national sales tax (that includes some consideration for those living in poverty). It could curb the spending that is the cause of issues not only for the unmotivated, but also for the HENRYs who are just stretching themselves too hard to "live the life".

 

[chippedtoof]

Anyone who is interested, watch "Sick around the World" on Frontline (PBS) website. See what has happened to doctor's salaries in Germany and why they have protested in the streets numerous times. There are a whole lot of points about socialized medicine that are not discussed here. We have to be educated enough in these matters before we can discuss them. I don't mind having socialized medicine, as long as doctor's salaries are protected.
Watch the show. It will be enlightening.

Great frontline episode. The question I had after watching it was: where the heck does one go to maximize one's return and standard of living? Dubai I guess, if you like skiing in a giant tube in the desert.

 

[pd4emergence]

I'm guessing you've never been afflicted with a horrible condition or been maimed such that you couldn't achieve your goals? No loved-one similarly affected where it altered your life drastically? For the people that have been affected, how did they earn their fate?

Or I'm guessing that you've somehow dodged plummeting stock/portfolio values and have attributed the losses of other people to actions deserving of such fate?

Hard work increases your chances, but nothing in life is a guarantee.

I'm not a fan of the tax code (I've been fully victimized by amt, high rates, and deduction phase out - which btw start at ~150K... I don't even know how much remains by 250K with previous tax laws. Amt is what is killing those HENRYs) but I'd like to think I understand why progressive taxation is considered necessary.

It's an oversimplification but: if you are decently well off in this society, what would you spend to maintain the stability of this society? I'd say the richer you are, the more you'd like things to stay the same, while the poor wouldn't invest much in keeping the status quo.

I'd like to hear more about the national sales tax (that includes some consideration for those living in poverty). It could curb the spending that is the cause of issues not only for the unmotivated, but also for the HENRYs who are just stretching themselves too hard to "live the life".

I'm sorry, I just don't feel a moral responsibility to pay more of a proportion of my income than the next person so that we can all live in peace and harmony. Income taxes are a necessity for our government to function. Our current system is flawed and unfair. A national sales tax, a flat tax and other alternatives have been proposed to try to bring the system some resemblance of fairness. Unfortunately, our duly elected Congressman have no real incentive to change what is a flawed system. Tax cut promises are always a great way to get votes no matter what side of the isle they sit. One thing that bothers me with all of this talk of stimulus packages is when they pass an almost 800 billion dollar "stimulus plan" which was 1000 pages long, which came off the press about 12 hours before the vote. Most of those guys and girls who voted for the bill didn't even read it in its entirety (I read pretty fast but not that fast). Voting for a 800 billion dollar spending package without reading it is shameful. These are the same people who want to raise my taxes and my taxes only in an already unfair tax code system for the greater good. I am just not buying it. But the fact is I will pay my taxes unlike alot of our elected officials who seem to think they are above that obligation. Fix the tax code and I would feel much better about an increase in my tax burden. In my opinion, fiscal responsibility should be the first thing that happens. But I guess we have to have that 8 billion dollar train to Las Vegas. By the way, these are the same people we are hoping to lead us out of this recession. We are truly fu**ed. The dow today 6763.29.

 

[pd4emergence]

sorry double post

 

[chippedtoof]

I'm sorry, I just don't feel a moral responsibility to pay more of a proportion of my income than the next person so that we can all live in peace and harmony. Income taxes are a necessity for our government to function. Our current system is flawed and unfair. A national sales tax, a flat tax and other alternatives have been proposed to try to bring the system some resemblance of fairness.

I guess I was trying to portray it not as a moral responsibility, but as a price to pay that ultimately was for one's personal benefit. The grey area is how much one is willing to pay for those benefits. But I think we agree more that we disagree.

I'd like to also suggest that our system is flawed (esp in the overhead it creates due to its complexity and the fact that people like Warren Buffet pays a lower tax rate than his administrators), however, I don't believe it's due to the fact that it's progressive (taxes rich at a higher rate), a fact that a lot of people are hung up about.

 

[AbRKnight]

pstone,

Do a residency and then tell me you still have the same beliefs. Let me tell you what it feels like to be in residency, especially in a surgical residency. It feels like you are a servant and everyone wants to get you. Some days, you're so tired that you wished to fall onto your bed and sleep forever. You wish you could scream from the top of your lung at the *******s around you. You wish you could get paid more, were valued more, held to a higher esteem. You wish residency was more efficient so you wouldn't have to do it for so many years. You wish it was over day after day. The, when you finish, you wish your salary as an attending wasn't in constant jeopardy of being diminished. No other job in the world, as far as I know, deals with the same issue. Why is it that WE have to face lower salaries but others in society don't. Help me understand that. Better yet, save it. I don't want to hear from someone green behind the ears.

While I agree with the majority of your post having( I haven't done a residency yet but spent some time in the military), I would argue that most people ARE worried about a lower salary but more so the possibility of having NO salary at all. While there is a POSSIBILITY of diminished wages in medicine, many hardowrking people have already lost their jobs and ALL of their paychecks. So let us try to keep it in perspective.

 

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I realize you believe it is very belittling to someone to go out of your way to not refer to someone by their nickname but by "student" but you really have no idea what that person has done or how much money that person has earned in his or her lifetime. As far as..."We listened to rhetorics like yours and some of us believed that it will work out somehow. The result was 50 years of promoting mediocrity, food stamps and labor camps. If you want socialism go in Cuba." What was going on until you got your GOP hero GW Bush into office. Let the "student" refresh your small minded but big-headed "attending" memory, $150 billion surplus and paying down our national debt under Clinton. However, it went UP an average of 10.8% under Reagan,Bush,Bush. Our national debt went from approx 1 trillion to approx 2.6 trillion under the "conmservative" hero Ronald Reagan. Shall we open up the discussion to how much of our tax dollars are being spent in IRAQ? That was after all your boy spending your dollars wasn't it?

Or I could ignore this forum from now on and you can go on making over generalized statements about the problem being "food stamps and labor camps" that are in fact closer to propaganda or lunacy than anything making sense.


Then again those are just those pesky "facts," coming from another "student."
An aspiring doc who also happens to be employed as an intelligance analyst for the DOD.

[SIZE=+1]The Myth of the Clinton Surplus[/SIZE]
http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16

 

[niranjan162]

While I agree with the majority of your post having( I haven't done a residency yet but spent some time in the military), I would argue that most people ARE worried about a lower salary but more so the possibility of having NO salary at all. While there is a POSSIBILITY of diminished wages in medicine, many hardowrking people have already lost their jobs and ALL of their paychecks. So let us try to keep it in perspective.

What makes you think the money from that was initially going to you is now going to help someone who needs it? Look at the governments record in the financial crisis. They knew bailout companies were spending money irresponsibly (spa weekends) but they never put any kind of restrictions on how bailout money was spent.

 

[Willard]

Here is a fun game for you all: which one of the following income tax schedules is socialism? A, B, or C? All numbers are adjusted for inflation.

A Tax rate Over But Not Over
10.0% $0 $16,700
15.0% $16,700 $67,900
25.0% $67,900 $137,050
28.0% $137,050 $208,850
36.0% $208,850 $372,950
39.6% $372,950 -

B Tax rate Over But Not Over
15.0% $0 $53,936
28.0% $53,936 $130,319
31.0% $130,319 $198,584
36.0% $198,584 $354,671
39.6% $354,671

C Tax rate Over But Not Over
0.0% $0.00 $7,083.10
11.0% $7,083.10 $11,464.20
12.0% $11,464.20 $15,826.00
14.0% $15,826.00 $24,781.20
16.0% $24,781.20 $33,331.10
18.0% $33,331.10 $42,074.00
22.0% $42,074.00 $51,241.50
25.0% $51,241.50 $62,281.10
28.0% $62,281.10 $73,301.40
33.0% $73,301.40 $95,380.60
38.0% $95,380.60 $124,967.50
42.0% $124,967.50 $178,274.10
45.0% $178,274.10 $227,836.50
49.0% $227,836.50 $338,232.50
50.0% $338,232.50

 

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Here is a fun game for you all: which one of the following income tax schedules is socialism? A, B, or C? All numbers are adjusted for inflation.

A Tax rate Over But Not Over
10.0% $0 $16,700
15.0% $16,700 $67,900
25.0% $67,900 $137,050
28.0% $137,050 $208,850
36.0% $208,850 $372,950
39.6% $372,950 -

B Tax rate Over But Not Over
15.0% $0 $53,936
28.0% $53,936 $130,319
31.0% $130,319 $198,584
36.0% $198,584 $354,671
39.6% $354,671

C Tax rate Over But Not Over
0.0% $0.00 $7,083.10
11.0% $7,083.10 $11,464.20
12.0% $11,464.20 $15,826.00
14.0% $15,826.00 $24,781.20
16.0% $24,781.20 $33,331.10
18.0% $33,331.10 $42,074.00
22.0% $42,074.00 $51,241.50
25.0% $51,241.50 $62,281.10
28.0% $62,281.10 $73,301.40
33.0% $73,301.40 $95,380.60
38.0% $95,380.60 $124,967.50
42.0% $124,967.50 $178,274.10
45.0% $178,274.10 $227,836.50
49.0% $227,836.50 $338,232.50
50.0% $338,232.50

I think you missed the point, chief. Here it is straight from the horse's mouth.
"We are going through more than a cycle. The global economy, and capitalism, will be ‘reset’ in several important ways. The interaction between government and business will change forever. In a reset economy, the government will be a regulator; and also an industry policy champion, a financier, and a key partner.”

That was straight from Cheesemelt's mouth. Here is the link. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=alFhb34_4s_M&refer=home

I wish I had more GE shares so I could vote his behind out. We would have been better off to have paid Jack Welch $100 million dollars a year than to let this bozo... oh well, anybody want to buy several thousand shares in Government Electric. You can add it to your portfolio along with Bank of America and Government Motors.

 

[Jeff05]

what would i pay to maintain "stability" of society? you mean how much more of my earned money do i have to give to others before they pick up pitchforks, come to my house and take it anyway?

you guys just don't get it. this isn't a philosophical argument about what's right or what's wrong. who is lucky or not lucky. who REALLY earned it and who didn't. who has or who has not.

the current policy of this administration (and the last one and the one before that) is leading this country to RUIN. unless something changes (read voting for someone who will CUT goverment, CUT taxes, and CUT wars) this country will cease to exist as we know it.

we have already given up many of our liberties. this country was created and has prospered due to a very specific code, which has been twisted out of recognition.

the precipitous economic decline we are experiencing is just the beginning. this is the tip of the $h1tberg. it will NOT improve. not in 2 years. not in 4. there will be at least 5-10 years of stagnation. people will get sick of this and vote for someone who will encourage business growth and innovation (not punish it). then, we may have a chance.

for now, dig in. sit tight. take the tax increases and the pay cuts. right now, there is NOTHING any of us can do.

I'm guessing you've never been afflicted with a horrible condition or been maimed such that you couldn't achieve your goals? No loved-one similarly affected where it altered your life drastically? For the people that have been affected, how did they earn their fate?

Or I'm guessing that you've somehow dodged plummeting stock/portfolio values and have attributed the losses of other people to actions deserving of such fate?

Hard work increases your chances, but nothing in life is a guarantee.

I'm not a fan of the tax code (I've been fully victimized by amt, high rates, and deduction phase out - which btw start at ~150K... I don't even know how much remains by 250K with previous tax laws. Amt is what is killing those HENRYs) but I'd like to think I understand why progressive taxation is considered necessary.

It's an oversimplification but: if you are decently well off in this society, what would you spend to maintain the stability of this society? I'd say the richer you are, the more you'd like things to stay the same, while the poor wouldn't invest much in keeping the status quo.

I'd like to hear more about the national sales tax (that includes some consideration for those living in poverty). It could curb the spending that is the cause of issues not only for the unmotivated, but also for the HENRYs who are just stretching themselves too hard to "live the life".

 

[RabbMD]

Of course attendings "can pay" higher taxes. I live modestly, don't have credit card debt, and save a significant portion of my income. The concern is the attitude of these tax increases. It is basically one of "they make too much money, lets take it." How much is too much? If they raise taxes 6% now on the "wealthy" (although this thread points out, higher earnings alone is far from what makes people wealthy, especially us newly minted attendings who have made over $100K for only a couple years, received no tax stimulus paymenys, and have watched our first 401k contributions and home values drop through the floor), why stop there, and with this attitude and this spending bill ObaReidOsi will not stop there.

If no one complains about 6% tax hikes, next comes 10%, and then 20%. All for policies that are guaranteed to be overpriced, and unneeded. Basically, how you view America depends on your internal loci of control beliefs. If you think that everyone starts with a relative equality of opprotunity and success is based on hardwork, intelligence, and character, then you believe in capitalism, and are likely to have Republican beliefs. If you think that success is based on cronism, luck, discrimination, and is beyond anyones indepent control, then you lean Democrat, and believe in socialism.

So tell me students with no skin in the game, how much of my income is enough? What is patriotic and fair enough?

 

[NPR]

Of course attendings "can pay" higher taxes. I live modestly, don't have credit card debt, and save a significant portion of my income. The concern is the attitude of these tax increases. It is basically one of "they make too much money, lets take it." How much is too much? If they raise taxes 6% now on the "wealthy" (although this thread points out, higher earnings alone is far from what makes people wealthy, especially us newly minted attendings who have made over $100K for only a couple years, received no tax stimulus paymenys, and have watched our first 401k contributions and home values drop through the floor), why stop there, and with this attitude and this spending bill ObaReidOsi will not stop there.

If no one complains about 6% tax hikes, next comes 10%, and then 20%. All for policies that are guaranteed to be overpriced, and unneeded. Basically, how you view America depends on your internal loci of control beliefs. If you think that everyone starts with a relative equality of opprotunity and success is based on hardwork, intelligence, and character, then you believe in capitalism, and are likely to have Republican beliefs. If you think that success is based on cronism, luck, discrimination, and is beyond anyones indepent control, then you lean Democrat, and believe in socialism.

So tell me students with no skin in the game, how much of my income is enough? What is patriotic and fair enough?

Now now, let's not lump all students in the same category. I agree wholeheartedly that increases in tax are a slippery slope.

Of course, the problem is convincing the public of this. And then battling the lawyers who wield the power in government.

 

[surgicalskills]

While I agree with the majority of your post having( I haven't done a residency yet but spent some time in the military), I would argue that most people ARE worried about a lower salary but more so the possibility of having NO salary at all. While there is a POSSIBILITY of diminished wages in medicine, many hardowrking people have already lost their jobs and ALL of their paychecks. So let us try to keep it in perspective.

The problem with your reasoning is that our field has faced continuous decrease in payment over the years and with the addition of more administrative headaches, threat of lawsuits, the need to endure grueling residency years. However, the people you allude to may have lost their jobs now, but that is due to the state of the economy which at some point will bounce back. Those people don't have to worry about the things that you and I have to worry about. My problem is that society in general doesn't appreciate what we do (which I really don't care about) and to add insult to injury, expects us to tolerate lower salaries (I do care about). They don't know what we have to go through to get to where we are. There's a vast difference between what we do and what they do. This is not an elitist attitude. It's just the truth.

So you think that salaries will not be lower in 5-10 yrs? Okay, I guess we just have to wait and see.

 

[Good Solutions]

what would i pay to maintain "stability" of society? you mean how much more of my earned money do i have to give to others before they pick up pitchforks, come to my house and take it anyway?

you guys just don't get it. this isn't a philosophical argument about what's right or what's wrong. who is lucky or not lucky. who REALLY earned it and who didn't. who has or who has not.

the current policy of this administration (and the last one and the one before that) is leading this country to RUIN. unless something changes (read voting for someone who will CUT goverment, CUT taxes, and CUT wars) this country will cease to exist as we know it.

we have already given up many of our liberties. this country was created and has prospered due to a very specific code, which has been twisted out of recognition.

the precipitous economic decline we are experiencing is just the beginning. this is the tip of the $h1tberg. it will NOT improve. not in 2 years. not in 4. there will be at least 5-10 years of stagnation. people will get sick of this and vote for someone who will encourage business growth and innovation (not punish it). then, we may have a chance.

for now, dig in. sit tight. take the tax increases and the pay cuts. right now, there is NOTHING any of us can do.

Vote Libertarian
www.lp.org/

Smaller government, less taxes, more freedom. Easy choice.

 

[AbRKnight]

The problem with your reasoning is that our field has faced continuous decrease in payment over the years and with the addition of more administrative headaches, threat of lawsuits, the need to endure grueling residency years. However, the people you allude to may have lost their jobs now, but that is due to the state of the economy which at some point will bounce back. Those people don't have to worry about the things that you and I have to worry about. My problem is that society in general doesn't appreciate what we do (which I really don't care about) and to add insult to injury, expects us to tolerate lower salaries (I do care about). They don't know what we have to go through to get to where we are. There's a vast difference between what we do and what they do. This is not an elitist attitude. It's just the truth.

So you think that salaries will not be lower in 5-10 yrs? Okay, I guess we just have to wait and see.

I didn't say I thought salaries would be the same in 5-10 years, I just said let's keep any reductions in perspective. However you do bring up valid points in the first part if your post and I agree with most of what you said.

 

[igottaquestion]

Vote Libertarian
www.lp.org/

Smaller government, less taxes, more freedom. Easy choice.

So are you guys running Madoff for President and sub-prime lending for VP in 2012?

 

[Gern Blansten]

So are you guys running Madoff for President and sub-prime lending for VP in 2012?

I might think that was funny if it actually made any sense.

 

[2win]

I might think that was funny if it actually made any sense.

What is interesting - and watch further developments in the "new era" is that the first one to join the communist party in 1930 were the most dubious elements - without a work ethic, without a goal in life, with a lot of hate, lazy, thiefs and so on. And as an irony of fate - they perished in disgrace. Some of them were judgded and killed by they own comrades. Watch and see!
I will enjoy my luxury car and vacations in France helped by the stimulus...

 

[badgas]

So the new foreclosure "fix" was announced today. It looks like everyone who was responsible with their mortgage, saved money, stayed out of debt, etc. gets to pay for the people who took out an interest only loan on a $700,000 house with a $60K/yr salary. That's just wonderful. I REALLY wanted to buy a house at the start of residency this year. I DIDN'T buy a house this year because I can't afford to do so comfortably. I'm so glad that my taxes will go to those who thought "well, I can't afford it, but F*** it, I'll take out an interest only loan and worry about it later."

I was neutral on Obama to begin with, but he is making things very scary, very fast.

 

[igottaquestion]

I might think that was funny if it actually made any sense.

a hint:

"The political platform of the Libertarian Party reflects that group's particular brand of libertarianism, favoring minimally regulated, laissez-faire markets, strong civil liberties, minimally regulated migration across borders, and non-interventionism in foreign policy that respects freedom of trade and travel to all foreign countries."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_States)

 

[econdr]

Go ahead and move to France. Socialism has worked well for them. If you don't like the ideals that the United States of America were founded on (personal accountability, personal individual freedom, limited government intrusion into commerce) then please, just leave and join a country that has tried the socialism/communism/marxism experiment. This country was founded on something different, and we fought various wars over the years to maintain those ideals. I will not let pansies like you sing me some sob song about "birth circumstance" because here in America we ALL have opportunity. But you gotta work, something many here do not seem to understand.

Why move to france? France is coming here. Yay for socialism!

You greedy doctors should have gone into dentistry. I don't like the idea of you treating my patients while only worrying about $$$. It's inhuman.

 

[econdr]

For all of you who call for less regulation, here's a few fun facts...

The credit default swaps (CDS) market was, unlike every other form of insurance, completely unregulated. It swelled to a $50trillion market in just a few years, and there were insufficient capital reserves to keep companies like AIG who underwrote these securities solvent. Look at what we have today, AIG has already blown through $100B of tax dollars and its still a ticking time bomb that will destroy any counterparty bank it touched with its CDS in the last 10 years.

Fannie and Freddie were deregulated by bush and GOP legislators in 2005 under bush's ingenious "ownership society". Give every broke jackass a home. Great idea.

The biggest cause of our current crisis was the fact that our government allowed Lehman brothers to fail. They should have put Lehman into a conservatorship and unwound its trilliosn of dollars of trades and transactions efficiently to prevent crisis contagion. Ask any economist today, if the government would have bailed out Lehman, the TED spread wouldn't have jumped to 500 basis points (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=.TEDSP%3AIND), i.e. there would have been no credit crunch.

These are all due to a lack of smart regulation and the government's laisser faire attitude over the last 8 years.

To all you doctors complaining about your $250k salaries, don't act surprised. You chose the wrong profession. Health care is a necessity, a right, not a privilege. Hopefully universal health care will discourage doctors who only care about money from entering the profession, and encourage those who actually are in it for PATIENT CARE.

 

[2win]

"Health care is a necessity, a right, not a privilege. Hopefully universal health care will discourage doctors who only care about money from entering the profession, and encourage those who actually are in it for PATIENT CARE."
When you knock to a physician door please inform the office staff when they'll ask you to pay for the visit about your beliefs. Maybe you'll get a stimulus or a bailout.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Maybe some of us are looking at this stuff from the wrong perspective. The upside to all of this is that, if these new age physicians go through the process and get all trained up over the next 8 years, we will be able to hire them to our groups. It sounds as though they would be perfect partners for our groups. We can pay them teacher's salaries, let them cover all of the weekends and holidays, and let them cover any late shifts so that we can spend more time with family. We know they won't complain because they are here to serve their fellow humans and make sure that everyone's rights are taken care of. The future is looking bright.

 

[econdr]

Maybe some of us are looking at this stuff from the wrong perspective. The upside to all of this is that, if these new age physicians go through the process and get all trained up over the next 8 years, we will be able to hire them to our groups. It sounds as though they would be perfect partners for our groups. We can pay them teacher's salaries, let them cover all of the weekends and holidays, and let them cover any late shifts so that we can spend more time with family. We know they won't complain because they are here to serve their fellow humans and make sure that everyone's rights are taken care of. The future is looking bright.

always looking to exploit, eh?

 

[Gern Blansten]

always looking to exploit, eh?

Study hard and get good grades.

 

[econdr]

Study hard and get good grades.

Same to you. You are a doctor for christ's sake, try to spend more time working and less time complaining about your income in online forums.

Then you'll make the millions of dollars that you dreamed of as a premed.

 

[coldweatherblue]

econdr you would be well-advised to respect and attempt to understand the viewpoints of those experienced in the profession of medicine and refrain from making generalized, unfounded attacks regarding their motives. Remember you (or I) are in no position to council a resident or attending about altruism or anything related to patient care.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Same to you. You are a doctor for christ's sake, try to spend more time working and less time complaining about your income in online forums.

Then you'll make the millions of dollars that you dreamed of as a premed.

So, you wish to control how I spend my time off as well....

And I hope that you realized that my comments are tongue in cheek and sarcastic. I wonder also if you realized the irony of the comment about exploiting.

It appears that I touched a nerve with the teacher's salary and work schedule comments. It appears you want it both ways. You also appear to be interested in a good salary and reasonable work hours. So really, are you any different from the side you are arguing against?

I am not from the generation of physicians who made ridiculous salaries. I make a modest amount and work very hard to earn it. I give back to the specialty by participating in the training of future physicians. I wish to make a comfortable living that allows me a few luxuries that I gave up while I was working 100-110 hours a week during my late twenties and early thirties(as my kids were growing up), the ability to pay back my student loans, the ability to afford to give to the charities that I feel strongly about, the ability to give my kids a good chilhood and the prospect of them achieving a good education. I am not sure why people such as yourself wish to demonize those of us who have worked hard and wish to be rewarded appropriately for our efforts.
If you are applying to medical school, I would encourage you to take up these topics during your interviews. Make sure that you retain the internet tough guy persona. It is really working well for you. Best of luck to you in your future endeavors.