Occupy the imbalance!

[MCParent]

Below is a response writtein on the American Psychological Association (APA) Division 55 listserv to which I posted the petion. I may be reading Dr. McGrath's response incorrectly, but I think one implication of his response is that allowing APA-accredited internship to be unfunded would help alleviate the current crisis. Is anybody reading his response this way??? If so, we are totally screwed as a field

That's what I read, although it doesn't seem like he SAYS it outright so possibly he meant something else. I either have not read his paper yet or do not recall it based on his name, so unfortunately can't comment on anything he elaborate on there.

APPIC moved to require funding only 5 years ago. APA and APAGS backed their positions. It doesn't seem to me like his position is well supported by the professional community. As well, interns provide a service--I'm confused about why interns would not need to be paid for providing mental health services. Seems to me to devalue the provision of such services in general. As well, even in funded programs, not paying interns would be a huge shift--interns would still be registered, but would not receive assistanceships, so presumably they'd be paying tuition (including out-of-state for internationals) to their programs, with no income. I suppose that's more a student advocacy piece than anything and may not be what he was driving at. I suppose his argument is more economic in terms of how much it costs to start an internship, though I'm not sure I see the link between what's mentioned and not paying interns (and I defer to stuff I've posted on here before, that even if we suddenly had a 1:1 ratio of internships to applicants, for-profit institutions would just bump up enrollment correspondingly and nullify the increase in spots).

I don't agree with that perspective on the imbalance. Although it is true it existed for some time, it has become much, much worse over the last year years. There are multiple TEPP papers on that. And, you can just grab the APPIC data (you can use the 2000-2010 report to do this) and chart it for yourself in excel--the lines for APPIC-accredited spots, and # of applicants, diverge quite sharply in the past few years.

The information thing is a good point. There is a certain % who will just never listen to that data--e.g., same folks who might enroll in an unaccredited, online doctoral program and expect a favorable outcome. Yes, we will never be able to do anything about those people. But I think greater education of undergrads and applicants about psychology (should be in doctoral programs too--everything from income, to killing the silly phd = research, psyd = clinical myth--as well as in site self-report data) is important to informing applicants about their potential futures in the field.

I'm not on the Div 55 list. If you want to post this to that, that's fine. (Please do mention that I wouldn't be able to reply directly to responses, as I'm not on that list, if you do so.)

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[edieb]

I believe that Fairleigh Dickisnson is a professional school, knowing that I don't believe Dr McGrath would be arguing for funding of students. What you see here is the FPPS trying to spin this crisis to their advantage saying that they are not the problem but the fact that APA internships have to be funded is. Thus, just allow these internships to be unfunded and their numbers will increase as a corollary. However, what will happen in response to a higher number internships is that professional schools will just enroll more students!!!

 

[cara susanna]

I actually think the not accrediting programs unless they fund students is an interesting idea with potential. Although I know that's probably not what he meant

 

[psybee]

My understanding is that FDU is actually a university based PhD program and that they provide funding to their students (though not tons). Any FDU'ers on board to clear this up or have any insight into Dr. McGrath's stance? it's just seems totally out of character for someone who is so into medical psychology and obtaining parity and expanding scope--in those setting more than anything the lack of parity in terms of national standards, national standards for liscenceure, and all the other things that make us different from MD's just shines.

Here's a link to the article:

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/tep/5/4/202.html

basically he's being critical of multiple proposed solutions, including making funding at the doctoral level a requirement for accred but also critical of removing funding requirement from internships...

 

[DynamicDidactic]

My gut reaction, Robert McGrath reeks of sleaze and self-interest at the expense of the field.

Fairleigh Dickinson University leaves their trainees with large loans mostly entering an over-saturated market (NYC).

Tuition for full-time course work (at least 12 credits per semester with practicum assignment) is on a flat-fee basis of $33,108* per year. When students are on part-time status (less than 12 credits per semester), the tuition is set at the regular graduate rate per credit of $1,114*. In addition, students authorized to begin their dissertation will be charged $3,974* per semester for two semesters. Thereafter, students will be required to register for dissertation maintenance ($410*) each semester until the dissertation is completed. Students are further charged $210* per semester for two semesters of internship. Full-time students are paid a fellowship of $18,554* their first year in the program and $16,554* for their second and third years. Teaching assistantships also are available with a tuition remission of approximately $2,250* per course taught. Usually, students with a master's degree or one year of graduate training are eligible to teach at least one course per year and, in some cases, one course per semester. Other paid positions are available. Additional funding is available on a competitive basis through the Michael Fink, Guterman-FitzSimons, and Johnson & Johnson Fellowship programs. Student loans are also available.

more than 10% of their students take non-APA internships, most that are unpaid. That is a big cost for students paying that much for tuition.

 

[psybee]

My gut reaction, Robert McGrath reeks of sleaze and self-interest at the expense of the field.

Fairleigh Dickinson University leaves their trainees with large loans mostly entering an over-saturated market (NYC).
more than 10% of their students take non-APA internships, most that are unpaid. That is a big cost for students paying that much for tuition.

unfortunately this tuition/stipend setup is the norm in the NYC area and it is not a model that should be acceptable for graduate psychology

 

[MCParent]

Is anyone on the newpsychlist yahoo group? I just tried to post to it but I'm not sure it went through. Can a member post a link to the FB group and the petition?

 

[LMK]

Has anyone sent it to Div 19? I've shared it on FB and twitter, got a couple more signatures.

 

[neuronic]

Bump - keep it circulating!

 

[Duck Duck Goose]

I think the poster meant that their program typically requires APA internships, but that they allowed everyone except the poster to apply for APPIC internships as well last year.

Pretty much this. I can't say everyone else was allowed to rank APPIC sites but many were and I was not.

Like I said, university based PsyD program. And I didn't say APA accredited before in this thread but it is APA accredited.

 

[Duck Duck Goose]

Is this correct? Are you saying students in your program were not allowed to apply to APA internships and only you were allowed?

These two statements do not make it sound like you are from a very "traditional" program. How can your program prevent students from applying to APA internships? That is a good way to have very unsuccessful graduates by reducing their pool of potential employers.

Also, yes, I think the faculty at my program did a great job of holding me back from being a successful graduate/professional. Can't get an internship, can't be a graduate!

 

[edieb]

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/psychology-internship/

 

[O Gurl]

almost up to last year's signature total. nice work on the publicity with this one, folks.

 

[MCParent]

Over 500 now. About 100 in the last 24 hours--so no sign of slowing down. The FB group is decently active as well.

Huge thanks to everyone who helped to distribute the links to the group and the petition. This is a giant success! And, we still have almost a month more to collect signatures before I send this to APA (though, I suspect they are already aware of it...).

I'm not on, or even aware of, every listserve out there. So anyone who shares this anywhere on any professional list serve--we all appreciate it!

 

[O Gurl]

I believe those participating in the match this year will be asked to complete the APPIC survey after Phase I (just around the corner). That would be a great opportunity to reinforce these concerns regarding the imbalance.

 

[Duck Duck Goose]

I'd wait til a week after tomorrow (Match Day) to resend it so that people applying for places in Phase II have had time both to apply, get to full "rage against the machine" mode, but haven't been offered interviews yet. But you've done a great job publicizing it already, so what do I know?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

*bump*

 

[psyman]

The petition was seen. It had a substantial impact.

Just curious, how do we know it had an impact? Clearly not based upon an improvement in the imbalance, so what's the impact?

 

[futureapppsy2]

I believe that Fairleigh Dickisnson is a professional school, knowing that I don't believe Dr McGrath would be arguing for funding of students. What you see here is the FPPS trying to spin this crisis to their advantage saying that they are not the problem but the fact that APA internships have to be funded is. Thus, just allow these internships to be unfunded and their numbers will increase as a corollary. However, what will happen in response to a higher number internships is that professional schools will just enroll more students!!!

FDU is not a professional school, although I agree with cara that only accrediting programs who fund students substantially (tuition waiver plus stipend) might be a very good idea for the health of this field.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Just curious, how do we know it had an impact? Clearly not based upon an improvement in the imbalance, so what's the impact?

It was talked about by some people in leadership positions. What would be helpful is to get a news outlet to pick the story up. I think it was the NYT that had an article about internship in general, but having a followup would be great. I have a number of contacts in the media, so I may call around and see if anyone is interested.

 

[Duck Duck Goose]

It was the new York times. The angle for the publicity play would be what?

Deceptive practices by schools? The ABA has gotten bad press recently for the trouble law school grads are getting into with student loans.

 

[cara susanna]

I saw someone mention a class-action suit. Would that be feasible? APA would certainly have to listen to that, heh.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Deceptive practices by schools? The ABA has gotten bad press recently for the trouble law school grads are getting into with student loans.

I was thinking the angle would be Student Loan Bubble and/or No Jobs....as the 'Merican public cites jobs/the economy as the biggest issue for the presidential race. Many economists agree that the Student Loan Bubble is going to be crippling. It is also not a big reach to bang on the "education does NOT equal jobs" drum.

Alternatively...there has already been stories on deceptive practices by law school and predatory for-profit education....so this seems like a logical next step.

 

[paramour]

I actually think the not accrediting programs unless they fund students is an interesting idea with potential. Although I know that's probably not what he meant

Yeeah, it does not seem to jive with what he wrote in his paper either due to those pesky potential legal ramifications of requiring student funding at the training level. He does seem to advocate or argue for unpaid (or add at least) internships... because it's comparable with the same model as one finds with funding for doctoral programs. So higher caliber students will go to paid internships and lower caliber students to unpaid internships, or so goes the argument he makes.

 

[MCParent]

Over SIX HUNDRED signatures now. And some of the names are pretty big

 

[cara susanna]

I just had a thought: what about an actual, physical protest outside of APA HQ? Could they ignore that? I know it's not feasible for a lot of students, but there must be some at least in the DC area who could devote some time to it.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I just had a thought: what about an actual, physical protest outside of APA HQ? Could they ignore that? I know it's not feasible for a lot of students, but there must be some at least in the DC area who could devote some time to it.

Good idea.

I think the best opportunity to organize a demonstration/protest is AT the APA conference because that will get the most awareness within the community.

 

[O Gurl]

I was thinking the angle would be Student Loan Bubble and/or No Jobs....as the 'Merican public cites jobs/the economy as the biggest issue for the presidential race. Many economists agree that the Student Loan Bubble is going to be crippling. It is also not a big reach to bang on the "education does NOT equal jobs" drum.

Alternatively...there has already been stories on deceptive practices by law school and predatory for-profit education....so this seems like a logical next step.

I love the idea of seeking media attention for this, but I hesitate to frame this as a jobs issue because it really is not. Unlike manufacturing, where jobs really have decreased due to outsourcing and such, there are more positions for psychologists in more settings than ever before. An undesirable outcome of pitching the imbalance this way is that people will be inclined to simply call for the creation of more positions/slots. I don’t think we want to perpetuate the real problems, which are: 1) predatory businesses exploiting students and 2) limitless federal funds for student loans. If the petition (and other occupy efforts) fail to persuade the APA to act, then class action lawsuits against the for-profits and/or lobbying for revised federal student loan practices (e.g. capping loans based on degree earning potential; refusing loans for schools that fail to raise a minimum amount of funding through endowments; etc) are great ways to move this forward and get some media coverage.

 

[O Gurl]

I just had a thought: what about an actual, physical protest outside of APA HQ? Could they ignore that? I know it's not feasible for a lot of students, but there must be some at least in the DC area who could devote some time to it.

Good idea.

I think the best opportunity to organize a demonstration/protest is AT the APA conference because that will get the most awareness within the community.

Thumbs up to physical protests. There are benefits to both approaches. Picketing headquarters may appeal more to those who want to boycott the convention. The convention may be more convenient because the audience is gathered (like T4C pointed out). Personally, I would be game for either.

 

[4410]

How is a Free Standing program defined? It does not seem very clear to me and it seems that people are getting free standing and online programs confused and thinking they are diploma mills. The program I am in has multiple campuses throughout the USA with most of the clinical psychology program having APA accreditation but all of the programs follow the APA training curriculum. We are in the process of self study and site study for APA accreditation soon.

We are part of a University system that has BA, MS, and PsyD degrees in the field of clinica psychology, counseling psychology, school psychology, industrial psychology, forensic psychology, business, education, criminal justice, counseling, substance abuse counseling, nursing, and MBA.

I believe the free standing for profit schools are not part of a University System but only have the PsyD in clinical psychology. Schools like Alliant University, Argosy University, Nova Southeastern University, Fielding Institute, and others would not be considered free standing programs. All of these programs are part of a University system with different degrees and locations.

How does APA designate programs that are free standing for profit programs? There seems to be much mis-information about these differences, as the program I attend is very challenging but when I tell psychologists I am a student in the program it is common for much negativism with comments of being a diploma mill and an online degree which I have to correct them as this is far from the truth. The clinical psychology PsyD normally accepts between 15-20 students every year but the most recent class was 9 students. They do have an online Counseling degree for individuals who are already LPC that may be completed within two years or 55 additional hours with no dissertation or internship requirements but this is not the program I am in. It would seem that the professional community of psychologist would be aware of the differences in training for clinical psychologist and LPC and realize that there are many different program in Universities. An example is that UNT has a doctoral level counseling psychology program that is very difficult to get into in the department of psychology and also has a doctoral level counseling program in the department of education that is much easier to get into that leads to LPC licensure. The counseling psychology program is APA accredited but the counseling program is CACREPT accredited. Most psychologists know the difference in the programs at UNT so rarely if ever do the counseling psychology students get negative communication from the professional community. All of the counseling psychology students obtain APA accredited internships with the VA and other major medical centers.

 

[Ollie123]

I don't know that there is a specific definition of a FSPS other than "Know it when you see it". However Argosy/Alliant are basically the prototypes for what most of us mean when we refer to problem institutions that need to be de-accredited, as their training is often not even in the same league as "university" programs. They may meet some technical definition of "university" but no more so than a place like Devry/ITT Tech does. Some campuses are certainly better than others and class sizes do vary widely across campuses, but in general these schools have 1) Few core faculty (relative to the # of students, many with weak credentials, 2) VERY limited resources, 3) Wide variance in the quality of practica sites since they need to accommodate extremely large numbers of students 4) Laughably weak scientific training. Many have zero research involvement throughout graduate school, get away with things like "reviews" for their dissertations (and often, not even good ones), etc. I've encountered a number of graduates of these programs now who seem to know less than most of our applicants, and a fair portion don't have the stats training to properly understand even simple (clinically-oriented/necessary to function even moderately well in the field) research. Some graduates turn out okay, but the more I meet the more convinced I become its a fairly small number.

This is all on top of the typically hefty price tag that accompanies them, a generally weaker student body that comes from low standards for acceptance, etc.

 

[4410]

I believe there is much mis-information and people get the programs at designated institutions confused. Argosy/Alliant/Nova and other comparable professional programs have faculty from APA accredited programs and they follow the APA accredited training curriculum. I believe most of the locations for these three Universities are APA accredited. I believe they have to follow the same standards as all programs applying for APA accreditation so how can they be de-certified unless they are not following the APA standards?

These programs are not in any way similar to programs like DeVry or University of Phoenix which are mostly online programs. It seems that there is much mis-information floating around as students in these programs have required stats and research courses and do engage in research. How can generalization be made based on talking with one or two students? Students in these programs pass the EPPP and gain licensure and get accepted to APA accredited internships. Are all of these measures flawed? You could make similar generalizations about PhD university based programs as some of these students never pass the EPPP or gain licensure or get accepted into APA accredited internships. Could it be the program rather than the student characteristics? Everyone seems biased with broad generalizations on this topic.

I think the free standing programs are programs such as NorthCentral, Grand Canyon, but programs like Argosy, Alliant, Forrest, Nova are considered University based programs with multiple campuses. Alliant and Argosy have postdoctoral programs in neuropsychology and psychopharmacology that are highly reputable programs. It is not good to lump all of these programs together as the clinical psychology programs for professional school are very challenging and should not be mixed with the other programs who are mostly online and not directed at gainiing licensure.

 

[MCParent]

Good idea.

I think the best opportunity to organize a demonstration/protest is AT the APA conference because that will get the most awareness within the community.

Thumbs up to physical protests. There are benefits to both approaches. Picketing headquarters may appeal more to those who want to boycott the convention. The convention may be more convenient because the audience is gathered (like T4C pointed out). Personally, I would be game for either.

Working on it. Join the FB group.

It'll be at Convention. Most of the people it should be in front of are rarely physically in the APA HQ building.

 

[MCParent]

I believe there is much mis-information and people get the programs at designated institutions confused. Argosy/Alliant/Nova and other comparable professional programs have faculty from APA accredited programs and they follow the APA accredited training curriculum. I believe most of the locations for these three Universities are APA accredited. I believe they have to follow the same standards as all programs applying for APA accreditation so how can they be de-certified unless they are not following the APA standards?

These programs are not in any way similar to programs like DeVry or University of Phoenix which are mostly online programs. It seems that there is much mis-information floating around as students in these programs have required stats and research courses and do engage in research. How can generalization be made based on talking with one or two students? Students in these programs pass the EPPP and gain licensure and get accepted to APA accredited internships. Are all of these measures flawed? You could make similar generalizations about PhD university based programs as some of these students never pass the EPPP or gain licensure or get accepted into APA accredited internships. Could it be the program rather than the student characteristics? Everyone seems biased with broad generalizations on this topic.

First paragraph: Yeah. This is the POINT. Standards are too low, and do not account for outcomes.

Second: DeVry and U Phoenix are not accredited. Neither has sent any students through APPIC, ever. Look at the APPIC report. And, generalizations are made based on the 11 years of APPIC data, not two students.

 

[MCParent]

Also, if you, you know, READ the paper I wrote about it, you'll see that we wrote it partially to move AWAY from the PhD vs. PsyD generalizations of past work, and focus more on the variables of interest (contribution to number of unmatched students).

 

[Ollie123]

I'm well aware that these programs are not online, but Devry and ITT Tech (I didn't compare to U Phoenix) offer many campus-based programs as well. Online is a separate issue - I was simply referring to things like resources (pitiful libraries, fewer opportunities for cross-department collaborations/training, the sorts of folks generally teaching at them). You are correct that generalizations cannot be made by talking to 1-2 students (though for the record, its more like 15-20 I've spoken to in person, not counting the multitude of others online and secondhand info from others who encountered their students). However, that was just one place where this belief comes from - also from seeing who their faculty are, seeing the dissertations the students produce, looking at match rates (MUCH lower, and some don't even require everyone apply to APA internships) and EPPP scores across programs, seeing and hearing about the curriculum at these schools, etc. However, keep in mind when we are talking with schools we are inherently talking about means, not individuals. Does anyone really believe we could line up a random sampling of Argosy students and a random sampling of Minnesota students and not be able to tell which group is which based on any of a number of different metrics?

RE: APA-accreditation, you are right that they currently are accredited. That's sort of the point...that many of us feel accreditation standards are way too low and that these schools managing to get accredited is just one example of that. APA is a minimum standard...not something to take pride in. I've used the analogy before when someone posted that they picked their school because it required they at least do SOME kind of dissertation as being akin to selecting an apartment on the grounds that it was not currently on fire. Its certainly better than one that IS on fire, but I like to aim a little higher.

I'm also not saying that no one is saying that no one at these institutions does any research ever. Yet, how many methods/stats courses do they take? How many posters/publications does the typical student have at graduation? How much time are they expected to spend doing research? What percentage of their faculty even have lab space and/or publish regularly, in good places? I can continue listing these issues, but the point is if you just look at the averages and the "expectations" of students, they just aren't as high.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm also not saying that no one is saying that no one at these institutions does any research ever. Yet, how many methods/stats courses do they take? How many posters/publications does the typical student have at graduation? How much time are they expected to spend doing research? What percentage of their faculty even have lab space and/or publish regularly, in good places? I can continue listing these issues, but the point is if you just look at the averages and the "expectations" of students, they just aren't as high.

To pro-actively head off the, "I don't want to be an academic researcher" response....research is an important aspect of doctoral training, period. It influences clinical competencies. It is involved in selecting treatment interventions. It is also part of assessment development, selection, and use. You may never publish or present something once you leave your training (most private practice clinicians do not), but you will at least know how to do it.

 

[Ollie123]

To pro-actively head off the, "I don't want to be an academic researcher" response....research is an important aspect of doctoral training, period. It influences clinical competencies. It is involved in selecting treatment interventions. It is also part of assessment development, selection, and use. You may never publish or present something once you leave your training (most private practice clinicians do not), but you will at least know how to do it.

Though even in the "PhD" programs at many of these schools, the research experiences seem less than impressive. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to be a researcher, there is a lot wrong with any program that allows its students to get away without doing a real dissertation, or to otherwise minimize their research training. I'm at one of the most research-focused programs in the country and our average clinical hours when applying for internship exceed the average. I'd love it if I could just do research 100% of the time, but you won't hear me say "Well, I don't want to practice so I'm just going to take 2 classes in therapy/assessment, do nothing else that could be construed as clinical experience, and still call myself a clinical psychologist". Yet we hear the reverse all the time

 

[moneyphd]

I believe there is much mis-information and people get the programs at designated institutions confused. Argosy/Alliant/Nova and other comparable professional programs have faculty from APA accredited programs and they follow the APA accredited training curriculum. I believe most of the locations for these three Universities are APA accredited. I believe they have to follow the same standards as all programs applying for APA accreditation so how can they be de-certified unless they are not following the APA standards?

These programs are not in any way similar to programs like DeVry or University of Phoenix which are mostly online programs. It seems that there is much mis-information floating around as students in these programs have required stats and research courses and do engage in research. How can generalization be made based on talking with one or two students? Students in these programs pass the EPPP and gain licensure and get accepted to APA accredited internships. Are all of these measures flawed? You could make similar generalizations about PhD university based programs as some of these students never pass the EPPP or gain licensure or get accepted into APA accredited internships. Could it be the program rather than the student characteristics? Everyone seems biased with broad generalizations on this topic.

This is chock full of misinformation, as a previous poster pointed out.

It would be great to see more brainstorming/discussion around these approaches:
boycotting convention
press releases/interviews
class action
individual suits
picketing
any APA-independent committee formation to organize dialogue with APA, press, etc.

We can be mindful of our actual relationship to APA, too. It can feel like APA is a faceless, governing entity of committees and subcommittees under which we may practice, and under which we are regulated. In reality this big, faceless system of governance is also coordinated by just a few individuals, to protect us. They ostensibly work for us and as an entity called APA they are maintained by our membership, our subscriptions, and our presence at convention. If APA (I'd love to refer to people specifically to promote accountability) wants future members despite an entity like PCSAS on the horizon, those few people are going to have to actually coordinate a solution. By neglect of science and neglect of the welfare of new professionals, these individuals are shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[Rivi]

Working on it. Join the FB group.

It'll be at Convention. Most of the people it should be in front of are rarely physically in the APA HQ building.

I wasn't planning on going to APA, but if there is a protest, I just might go to be a part of that. That would be awesome.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I wasn't planning on going to APA, but if there is a protest, I just might go to be a part of that. That would be awesome.

I have the same intention. Does anyone have any media contacts that are local to Orlando, FL? Anyone local to Orlando, FL (a constituent who votes there) should contact their local legislatures to inform them of the problem and ask for their support. Even one comment of support from an elected official would be very helpful to get a local news station to do a story. Mental health access is a HUUUUUGE problem everywhere, so supporting our movement ultimately will help the community through raising standards.

 

[cara susanna]

I might consider going to that, too!

 

[4410]

I believe you cannot generalize as many individuals commenting on the problems with not enough internship sites. When you look at University based programs there is much variance. Commonly the clinical psychology students are housed in a different locations whereby they rarely if ever have much to do with the rest of the University. Similarly many medical school have little to do with the larger University. I believe they are completely seperate and often in different city than the University at large. All they have in common is the University name,

Semantics seems to be the overiding issues as my guess is most clinical psychology programs are merely housed in the University but have limited interaction or involvement with the rest of the university. This is common for most Graduate school programs...normally Vet Med or Med School programs are not even housed near the University that they share a name with.

Also, Phd versus PsyD seem insignificant in this day in age as there is much variance among each type of degree program. What do you do when a person has both the PhD and PsyD as I've known some individuals who have the PhD in school psychology or even the MD degree and have gone back to complete the PsyD in clinical psychology.

I know my opinion is frequently discounted based on bias but certainly I do not believe you can generalize these notions to the imbalance of internship sites. I certainly would not agree to protest at the APA conference in Orlando, Florida as this would or could be harmful to the profession of psychologists and against the ethical principals we abide to working under. The imbalance is not APA responsibilty and my guess is that any protest at the APA conference would end up in the Orlando Police department putting many graduate students in jail and this could have even a greater impact on you eventually practicing as a psychologists.

It is my guess that if a protest at APA were to occur that it would have just the opposite effect than what most of your are thinking. Society will have even a more negative perspective than current on the practice of psychology and this is tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot. My guess is some graduate schools would put students on probation or terminate you from their program if you go to the point of being involved in a sanctioned protest at the national conference. Protest is not how we solve problems when you are in a doctoral level program...this somehow seems a superficial means to an ends and does not reflect the ethical principals to practice as a psychologists.

Try this....do a protest in front of the DCT office tomorrow morning....I am sure they would have no problems with putting you on probationary status and recommending that you not be allowed to advance further towards your doctoral degree. Graduate school and licensing is not a democratic process.

This is a public forum and my guess is many faculty members of programs also read this site, including APA administrative staff. I do not agree with any sort of a sanctioned protest at the national conference for psychologist. I was going to go to the conference in Orlando this year but if a bunch of students are going to make fools out of themselves, I may have second thoughts and stay home this year.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I believe you cannot generalize as many individuals commenting on the problems with not enough internship sites. When you look at University based programs there is much variance. Commonly the clinical psychology students are housed in a different locations whereby they rarely if ever have much to do with the rest of the University. Similarly many medical school have little to do with the larger University. I believe they are completely seperate and often in different city than the University at large. All they have in common is the University name,

Semantics seems to be the overiding issues as my guess is most clinical psychology programs are merely housed in the University but have limited interaction or involvement with the rest of the university. This is common for most Graduate school programs...normally Vet Med or Med School programs are not even housed near the University that they share a name with.

Also, Phd versus PsyD seem insignificant in this day in age as there is much variance among each type of degree program. What do you do when a person has both the PhD and PsyD as I've known some individuals who have the PhD in school psychology or even the MD degree and have gone back to complete the PsyD in clinical psychology.

I know my opinion is frequently discounted based on bias but certainly I do not believe you can generalize these notions to the imbalance of internship sites. I certainly would not agree to protest at the APA conference in Orlando, Florida as this would or could be harmful to the profession of psychologists and against the ethical principals we abide to working under. The imbalance is not APA responsibilty and my guess is that any protest at the APA conference would end up in the Orlando Police department puting many graduate students in jail and this could have even a greater impact on you eventually practicing as a psychologists.

From where are you getting the information that "most" university-based programs are somehow separated from the university? None of the university programs of which I know are in any way separate from their namesake university, with the vast majority placing students in university-based counseling centers that are, of course, located on said university's main campus.

Do university-based students complete practica away from the campus as well? Most definitely, but everything about the programs is housed at the university itself, not the least of which includes the faculty and the actual psychology department.

Medical schools are often also located at, or at least near, the university namesake as well. The main reason they might be a little ways away has to do with the physical space required for the hospital. However, there definitely are schools where the hospital site is in the campus itself (Emory springs to mind as one personally-known example).

As for the APA and internships, I don't see how anyone could think it's not a problem they need to deal with. They perpetually tout themselves as the nation's/world's largest psychological organization, so when the field is dealing with the significant issue, the APA needs to become involved...particularly when it's their accreditation systems and requirements that might be contributing to said problem.

 

[erg923]

I know my opinion is frequently discounted based on bias but certainly I do not believe you can generalize these notions to the imbalance of internship sites.

For goodness sake man, quit playing the victim! Its irritating! Your posts are often corrected because your posts are of often full of misinformation, faulty assumptions, and sometimes, just plain false facts (SEE ABOVE). Are you oblivious to all the misinformation and errors pointed out in your posts...both in this thread and in others?

I certainly would not agree to protest at the APA conference in Orlando, Florida as this would or could be harmful to the profession of psychologists and against the ethical principals we abide to working under.

Regarding this, you should know that when you make statement like that, you are obligated to state what principle is being violated. I hope you were taught this. I'd be interested to hear the ethical code that is violated be exercising one's first amendment rights to a governing authority...

 

[MCParent]

I know my opinion is frequently discounted based on bias

Your opinion is discounted because your posts are uninformed, illogical, or irrational (others have posted some specific instances since your post).

And, unfortunately, those who do not use reason cannot be swayed by it.

 

[Ollie123]

If the APA manages to have students arrested for arranging a peaceful, legal protest on the internship issue, that is going to make them look far worse than anyone getting arrested. It would likely get us an army of pro bono ACLU lawyers trying to sue them out of existence, and a number of people with no connection to the field whatsoever rioting outside their headquarters. Come to think of it, that actually sounds like a pretty ideal outcome to a protest

I'm somewhat confused by the other things in your post. I'm hard pressed to think of one traditional university program where the psych department is off-site, and either way that does nothing to address the many other points that have been brought up.

 

[4410]

For goodness sake man, quit playing the victim! Its irritating (not just to me, obviously)! Your posts are often corrected because your posts are of often full of misinformation, faulty assumptions, and sometimes, just plain false facts (SEE ABOVE). Are you oblivious to all the misinformation and errors pointed out in your posts...both in this thread and in others?



Regarding this, you should know that when you make statement like that, you are obligated to state what principle is being violated. I hope you were taught this. I'd be interested to hear the ethical code that is violated be exercising one's first amendment rights to a governing authority...

Principal A through E.....I have attended APA conferences in the past where there were protest and it caused much more harm than good, in my opinion.

 

[erg923]

Graduate school and licensing is not a democratic process.

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard...for multiple reasons.

 

[cara susanna]

Pretty sure that if our programs kicked us out for protesting at APA, we really COULD take legal action. Heh.