OFFICIAL 2005 Columbia P&S is in Deep Doo Doo Thread

indianboy

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P&S Classes of 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008:

An important issue regarding P&S‚s accreditation has come up and we wanted to (1) make you aware of it, and (2) ask for your support in communicating a strong message to the administration regarding this
issue.

The Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) of the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) and the American Medical Association (AMA) recently notified P&S that it had significant concerns regarding compliance with accreditation standards.

Following the LCME's reaccreditation survey in 2003, P&S was found to be non/undercompliant with a number of accreditation standards. The school was to address 6 standards with which we were noncompliant and 7 standards which were "in transition" (on their way to becoming noncompliant) with a progress report in January 2005. P&S submitted this progress report on January 4, 2005 and we received a letter
back from the LCME on February 14, 2005.

The LCME found that P&S remained noncompliant with 2 standards: (1) direct observation of students' core clinical skills; (2) space and facilities for ambulatory education.

The LCME also found that P&S had made only limited progress in addressing four other standards with which it is noncompliant: (3) linkage between educational and institutional objectives for clinical education; (4) methods for determination of clerkship grades; (5) provision of mid-clerkship formative feedback; (6) student study and relaxation space.

Finally, P&S has yet to fully address the items in transition: (7) curriculum content; (8) resident preparation for teaching; (9) student diversity; (10) career counseling; (11) student health services; (12) appointment and promotion within the non-tenure track; and (13) faculty satisfaction with the availability and accessibility of information technology support and services.

In an emergency session, the P&S Curriculum Committee met to discuss areas of noncompliance. One of the major concerns that came out of that meeting is that there is insufficient funding to institute the necessary changes. The Curriculum Committee moved to draft a letter to Dean Fischbach reviewing the need for financial support of the educational program.

Maintaining P&S‚s accreditation is critical for students. LCME accreditation is required for students to take the USMLE and to enter residencies approved by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME). Accreditation is also required for schools to receive federal grants for medical education and to participate in federal loan programs.

As the major stakeholder at P&S, we believe that it is important for
the student body to express its support for the Curriculum
Committee‚s plea to the Dean. It is time for the administration to invest in the educational program in a meaningful way and to protect the school‚s accreditation. Please read the attached letter to Dr. Fischbach and let us know what you think. With your support, we‚d like to send it to the Dean by mid-week.
 
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indianboy

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I heard all the money for the reforms went to constructing The Worlds Largest Keg Stand hosted by The Worlds Most Devoted NAMBLA member (hint: he loves your boyish good looks, toned physique, sent you a personally signed letter and helped you get in ...).

Hope that Helps

P 'ruh rohh!' ShankOut

indianboy said:
P&S Classes of 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008:

An important issue regarding P&S‚s accreditation has come up and we wanted to (1) make you aware of it, and (2) ask for your support in communicating a strong message to the administration regarding this
issue.

The Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) of the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) and the American Medical Association (AMA) recently notified P&S that it had significant concerns regarding compliance with accreditation standards.

Following the LCME's reaccreditation survey in 2003, P&S was found to be non/undercompliant with a number of accreditation standards. The school was to address 6 standards with which we were noncompliant and 7 standards which were "in transition" (on their way to becoming noncompliant) with a progress report in January 2005. P&S submitted this progress report on January 4, 2005 and we received a letter
back from the LCME on February 14, 2005.

The LCME found that P&S remained noncompliant with 2 standards: (1) direct observation of students' core clinical skills; (2) space and facilities for ambulatory education.

The LCME also found that P&S had made only limited progress in addressing four other standards with which it is noncompliant: (3) linkage between educational and institutional objectives for clinical education; (4) methods for determination of clerkship grades; (5) provision of mid-clerkship formative feedback; (6) student study and relaxation space.

Finally, P&S has yet to fully address the items in transition: (7) curriculum content; (8) resident preparation for teaching; (9) student diversity; (10) career counseling; (11) student health services; (12) appointment and promotion within the non-tenure track; and (13) faculty satisfaction with the availability and accessibility of information technology support and services.

In an emergency session, the P&S Curriculum Committee met to discuss areas of noncompliance. One of the major concerns that came out of that meeting is that there is insufficient funding to institute the necessary changes. The Curriculum Committee moved to draft a letter to Dean Fischbach reviewing the need for financial support of the educational program.

Maintaining P&S‚s accreditation is critical for students. LCME accreditation is required for students to take the USMLE and to enter residencies approved by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME). Accreditation is also required for schools to receive federal grants for medical education and to participate in federal loan programs.

As the major stakeholder at P&S, we believe that it is important for
the student body to express its support for the Curriculum
Committee‚s plea to the Dean. It is time for the administration to invest in the educational program in a meaningful way and to protect the school‚s accreditation. Please read the attached letter to Dr. Fischbach and let us know what you think. With your support, we‚d like to send it to the Dean by mid-week.
 

MiaFLSurf

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*cough* bull**** *cough*

Ive seen this same letter before with another school's name inserted. Cmon man, give us a break.
 

MiaFLSurf

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Dont be jealous cuz your looks werent good enough to get in. Some of us just have that little boy body he wants..... ;)

.......Why you so upset, indianboy...cmon...open up...tell us how you REALLY feel.

indianboy said:
I heard all the money for the reforms went to constructing The Worlds Largest Keg Stand hosted by The Worlds Most Devoted NAMBLA member (hint: he loves your boyish good looks, toned physique, sent you a personally signed letter and helped you get in ...).

Hope that Helps

P 'ruh rohh!' ShankOut
 

SarahGM

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Here to clear all rumors... that letter went out to P&S students from our class presidents.

However, it's not something to worry about. Every school has to pass accreditation, and every school has points that they need to work on. If you will read the letter closer, there is a meeting this evening to address these issues.

I will say that it is in poor taste to flagrantly post this letter up on a public message board and make it out to be more than it is. "P&S in Deep Doo Doo?" Come on. Have some tact.

Deep breath, and move on!
 

DrDarwin

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I think it's good to read about potential problems at different schools, but I wouldn't say that everyone is suddenly afraid of attending P&S. Stanford had some serious accreditation issues a few years ago regarding condition of facilities, but not too many people have been deterred from applying there, and it certainly still has a good reputation. P&S will remedy whatever problems it is facing, and things will work themselves out.
 
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indianboy

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Dont be jealous cuz your looks werent good enough to get in.
You must be mistaking me with someone else, cupcake.

Every school has to pass accreditation, and every school has points that they need to work on.
Or thirteen. This isn't a reason not to attend P&S; I can think of many others predating this letter.

Hope that Helps!

P 'Unctuously Yours' ShankOut
 

appomattox

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I think SarahGM and others downplay the importance of this. It wouldn't be an "emergency meeting" if this wasn't serious. In other news, 9 (nine) people failed the Step 2 CS, and the scuttlebutt is that it has to do with this underfunding mentioned in the exhaustive list of problems in the LCME roster (I mean, what sector of P&S isn't in trouble according to that list of thirteen items? Bard gym?).

The fact is that Stanford was dogged by its accreditation problems for years (and still is). That school has been cleaning up its act, and it's time for Columbia to do the same. Any student here can tell you there are major problems (provided they are not admissions office approved tour guides and other suzy sunshine types who attended the aforementioned keg stand in order to get in).
 

blump

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appomattox said:
I think SarahGM and others downplay the importance of this. It wouldn't be an "emergency meeting" if this wasn't serious. In other news, 9 (nine) people failed the Step 2 CS, and the scuttlebutt is that it has to do with this underfunding mentioned in the exhaustive list of problems in the LCME roster (I mean, what sector of P&S isn't in trouble according to that list of thirteen items? Bard gym?).

The fact is that Stanford was dogged by its accreditation problems for years (and still is). That school has been cleaning up its act, and it's time for Columbia to do the same. Any student here can tell you there are major problems (provided they are not admissions office approved tour guides and other suzy sunshine types who attended the aforementioned keg stand in order to get in).
I dont know anything about these specific problems but I do know some people who are not that happy with P & S. It is just something to take into account. People get so excited about the school without really looking to see what it is about.
 

Scooby Doo

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P&S is the shiznit..simple...and the only doo doo here is Scooby Doo Doo!

Great education...and the people who come here make what they want happen.

Simple.
 

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Personally, I figured this whole post was an attempt by some waitlister (I know it isn't a word) to get people scared so they would drop it. I can't back that up in anyway and it probably isn't right, though.
 

GuyLaroche

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So I withdrew from Columbia post-interview. I forget what my reasons were exactly, but at the time I had major reservations.
 

MWillie

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criminallyinane said:
Why are you so obsessed with rankings, if I may ask?
I think he's a big insecure thus he's trying to discredit US News.
 

DrDarwin

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MWillie said:
I think he's a big insecure thus he's trying to discredit US News.
I think he's trying to convey the idea that rankings don't mean everything, although his incessant NJMS rants suggest some degree of insecurity as well.
 

drguy22

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DrDarwin said:
I think he's trying to convey the idea that rankings don't mean everything, although his incessant NJMS rants suggest some degree of insecurity as well.

hahaha..im not insecure, im very very happy with my decision...and its not only about my school..its about all the schools considered "lower tier" I could care less if my school was number 1 on the list. they still dont matter to me as much. Now on the other hand..i would consider a better methodology of ranking if anyone actually came up with one.
 

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drguy22 said:
hahaha..im not insecure, im very very happy with my decision...and its not only about my school..its about all the schools considered "lower tier" I could care less if my school was number 1 on the list. they still dont matter to me as much. Now on the other hand..i would consider a better methodology of ranking if anyone actually came up with one.
what's a better methodology in your opinion: school's proximity to trenton?
 

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Haybrant said:
what's a better methodology in your opinion: school's proximity to trenton?
hahaha i dont know... maybe take into consideration...USLME pass rate and avg score should be taken into consideration b/c that reflects a lot bout the school....just like they take avg MCAT scores into consideration. They should take out the residency director opinions. stuff like that...
 

DrDarwin

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drguy22 said:
hahaha..im not insecure, im very very happy with my decision...and its not only about my school..its about all the schools considered "lower tier" I could care less if my school was number 1 on the list. they still dont matter to me as much. Now on the other hand..i would consider a better methodology of ranking if anyone actually came up with one.
good. contentment is much more important than prestigiousness anyway.
 

DrDarwin

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drguy22 said:
hahaha i dont know... maybe take into consideration...USLME pass rate and avg score should be taken into consideration b/c that reflects a lot bout the school....just like they take avg MCAT scores into consideration. They should take out the residency director opinions. stuff like that...
USMLE scores shouldn't be listed just because MCAT scores of incoming students are listed. Providing avg. USMLE scores for a particular med school is analogous to providing avg. MCAT scores for a particular undergrad institution. If only one were used, I would argue that USMLE scores should be used in place of avg. MCAT, but the latter is still useful because it is a fairly good--albeit crude--metric by which to determine one's competitiveness at a given school. Also, IMO, besides maybe student satisfaction, reputation according to residency directors is the most important criterion. Avg. debt, curriculum, etc. are important too, but they are not included in the rankings.
 

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I have also heard that Columbia was having problems and I am in no way related to the school. I will be applying for the med school class of 2006 and to be honest Columbia was one of the places I was going to apply. A doctor that is currently at Mayo and had done his fellowship up in New York told me not to apply to Columbia because they were in financial trouble. I put out a post about it a few days ago and no one paid much attention. Anyways, I have heard that Columbia's having problems, so I think the post is legit.
 

criminallyinane

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drguy22 said:
hahaha i dont know... maybe take into consideration...USLME pass rate and avg score should be taken into consideration b/c that reflects a lot bout the school....just like they take avg MCAT scores into consideration. They should take out the residency director opinions. stuff like that...
To me, the RD opinions part of US News is one of the only valuable pieces of information. If the RD's don't think your school is good, then they will be less likely to choose you to come to their program. So that's not something I would take out. Out of curiosity, why would you argue for that to be taken out?
 

Tra La La

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Hi all. This is a interesting thread.

While I did not apply to Columbia, I know that (from reputation) it's an awesome school. But the accreditation issue shouldn't be taken lightly, in my opinion.

This might be a useless analogy, but one of the best (if not the best) vet schools in the nation used to be UC Davis. I mean, this school was the **** in every sense of the word.

However, in 1998, the school was placed on limited accreditation for inadequate facilities. Before this , the school was ranked #1 by US News...in subsequent years, it was unranked. Off the radar. It's reputation suffered and the quality of education/research/applicants similarly declined.

Just last week, the school regained its accreditation after a $354 million building program--seven years later.

So, if all this talk about P&S is true, they gotta get their **** together.
 

drguy22

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criminallyinane said:
To me, the RD opinions part of US News is one of the only valuable pieces of information. If the RD's don't think your school is good, then they will be less likely to choose you to come to their program. So that's not something I would take out. Out of curiosity, why would you argue for that to be taken out?
well its just an opinion. Everyone, unfortunatly already has this predetermined idea that schools such as harvard, yale, stanford, etc are the best, so that does bias the survey. On the other hand, using more concrete things such as the MCAT, USMLE, GPA, NIH funding(which they already use, but that is weighted very little) you get a better picture of which school has a "better" reputation. If you look at the ranking, i think 40% of it is the RD opinion.

Although if I had an option , I would throw out rankings in the first place, because they all have to go through the standards put forth by the LCME, which are rigourous in itself.

in terms or residency placements, i think that they should do it blind, meaning that the directors shouldnt be able to see what school the students are from. However, i know that isnt really possible and it would be really hard to do.
 

Sparky Man

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Whew! Lucky I wasn't accepted to that LAME school!!!






just in case you are worried, i'm joking...
 

DrDarwin

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Are there any potential P&S students who are having serious reservations about attending Columbia because of the aforementioned accreditation issues? I definitely thought Bard was a dump and was pretty underwhelmed with some of the facilities, but I am not sure if the less than stellar condition of the facilities is directly related to funding problems. Of course, appearances aren't everything, and P&S certainly has a strong faculty. I know Stanford has some MAJOR issues a few years ago, but it seems to have rebounded nicely (at least as far as I know).
 

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DrDarwin said:
Are there any potential P&S students who are having serious reservations about attending Columbia because of the aforementioned accreditation issues?
Nope.
 

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I just thought that I would add a little something...

Having gone to Columbia and having spent the past few years trying to up alumni donations, I think it should be known that Columbia does not have the endowment that Harvard/Yale/Penn does... these ivies have huge endowments and their alumni giving is so far superior to Columbia's that none of them would ever really suffer financially-they have deep pockets to dip into when things look slim. Columbia does not have too much money to throw around, which could have a lot to do with these troubles, old facilities, etc.

Unfortunately, my mere $25 donations won't fix the problem! But, nothing major will ever happen to any of Columbia's schools... they have been around forever, and will continue to be.
 

Haybrant

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Sparky Man said:
Whew! Lucky I wasn't accepted to that LAME school!!!






just in case you are worried, i'm joking...

phew, for a minute there I thought you werent accepted sparks; ill be able to rest easier now
 

criminallyinane

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drguy22 said:
in terms or residency placements, i think that they should do it blind, meaning that the directors shouldnt be able to see what school the students are from. However, i know that isnt really possible and it would be really hard to do.
I am sorry, but that would be absurd. A student from the worst medical school in the country can make the exact same grades at their school as someone at Harvard, but they do NOT say the same thing. The only standardized part of the application is the USMLE.
 

tedrik

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DrDarwin said:
Are there any potential P&S students who are having serious reservations about attending Columbia because of the aforementioned accreditation issues? I definitely thought Bard was a dump and was pretty underwhelmed with some of the facilities, but I am not sure if the less than stellar condition of the facilities is directly related to funding problems. Of course, appearances aren't everything, and P&S certainly has a strong faculty. I know Stanford has some MAJOR issues a few years ago, but it seems to have rebounded nicely (at least as far as I know).
I have decided to attend P&S and the information on this thread has not affected me at all. This has been a great discussion, but Columbia has outstanding neuroscience facutly who match my interests very well. This is the major reason that made it my first choice, but it isn't the only reason I've chosen to attend.

Also, people keep saying that Bard is such a dump, but I don't think it's that bad. I don't know what kind of dorms most people are used to, but cheap, communal, and sometimes dirty housing is what made my freshman year at my undergrad more fun.

Lastly, when I interviewed at Stanford I was impressed, but turned off by their excessive emphasis on the facilities. Having plasma TVs in the some of the study rooms, and anatomy labs that lacked all smell of formaldehyde (clever tables that are also air vents) was cool, but these aren't things that would help me learn. For me, this environment was too flashy and didn't seem very academic. That's why I wanted a school that was more traditional, which I do not equate with being out-of-date.

On the other side of this, P&S has a reputation for being slow to change and I'm sure that it will take time to fix their problems. Although this will be frustrating, I don't think P&S graduates will have difficulty placing into great residencies.

This is just my opinion and I am very interested to hear what others have to say.
 

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criminallyinane said:
I am sorry, but that would be absurd. A student from the worst medical school in the country can make the exact same grades at their school as someone at Harvard, but they do NOT say the same thing. The only standardized part of the application is the USMLE.

to play devil's advocate: many schools are now on a pass/fail or p/f/h system that i dont see it making too much a difference from the perspective you argue. That's not to say that passing is a breeze, but i doubt there is a high percentage of students that fail, and if they do it is not due to the rigor of harvard or whatever school for that matter; i reckon it is more a personal issue.
 

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tedrik said:
Lastly, when I interviewed at Stanford I was impressed, but turned off by their excessive emphasis on the facilities. Having plasma TVs in the some of the study rooms, and anatomy labs that lacked all smell of formaldehyde (clever tables that are also air vents) was cool, but these aren't things that would help me learn. For me, this environment was too flashy and didn't seem very academic. That's why I wanted a school that was more traditional, which I do not equate with being out-of-date.

.

good post and good luck at p&s.

I would like to say that I didnt really get this impression from stanford at all; I think something like this deals with the tour guides you probably had. I would be surprised if all they emphasized are the facilities and didnt mention the research, curriculum, and clinical opportunities which are all things that will help you learn. This is partly why one should hesitate before basing their decisions solely on the interview day; it's just too variable.
 

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Haybrant said:
phew, for a minute there I thought you werent accepted sparks; ill be able to rest easier now
yeah, i didn't say what part i was joking about, did i? i really loved columbia when i visited & had a wonderful talk with my interviewer. i was waitlisted and withdrew from the waitlist after an acceptance at another place i liked even more. i'm sure p&s is gonna be fine despite this poisonous thread...later haybrant
 

tedrik

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Haybrant said:
I think something like this deals with the tour guides you probably had. I would be surprised if all they emphasized are the facilities and didnt mention the research, curriculum, and clinical opportunities which are all things that will help you learn. This is partly why one should hesitate before basing their decisions solely on the interview day; it's just too variable.
I agree entirely. I'll admit that my tour guides did seem a little over enthusiastic to show off the high-tech facilities at Stanford and I'm sure this introduced some bias on my part. The research at Stanford was also a great match to my own interests and the med school definitely puts a high level of importance on students participating in research (i.e. scholarly concentrations).

We are talking about two top-tier schools and any decision between the two will be one based almost entirely on personal reasons and not on the quality of education. If the things you've read in this thread regarding Columbia's accreditation issues has shaken your confidence in attending the school, then you should definitely look into this more - and not by reading a thread with "doo doo" in the title - before making a decision.
 
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indianboy

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More data for your regression analysis below (taking out some personal info in the spirit of HIPAA - all things you can look up for those conspiracy theorists out there).

Hope that Helps

P 'St. Antigua Pharmacy School Class of 2007' ShankOut


March [16], 2005

Gerald D. Fischbach, M.D.
Executive Vice President for Health and Biomedical Sciences
and Dean, Faculty of Medicine Columbia University College of Physicians & Surgeons
ADDRESS OF DEAN

Dear Dean Fischbach:

As you know, P&S received notification from the LCME that the school remains partially or substantially noncompliant with respect to a number of accreditation standards. LCME accreditation is required for students to take the USMLE and to enter residencies approved by the ACGME. Accreditation is also required for schools to receive federal grants for medical education and to participate in federal loan programs. We, the students of P&S, are very concerned that the school’s accreditation is at risk.

The LCME’s concerns reflect important deficits at P&S. Although the school has an outstanding faculty with demonstrated devotion to education, research and patient care, it is clear that the educational mission lacks the resources needed to keep pace with the technological and educational advances found at other medical schools of a caliber comparable to ours.

We believe there should be greater support for faculty and curricular development to address these issues in the near term and we strongly support the Curriculum Committee’s appeal for immediate investment in the educational program.

Sincerely,

NAME President, P&S Class of 2005 on behalf of the Class of 2005 NAME President, P&S Class of 2006 on behalf of the Class of 2006
NAME President, P&S Class of 2007 on behalf of the Class of 2007
NAME President, P&S Class of 2008 on behalf of the Class of 2008
 
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indianboy

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and not by reading a thread with "doo doo" in the title
Some of the best things I've read in my life have had "doo doo" in the title. Namely, this thread.

We are talking about two top-tier schools
Stanford and ...? (Oh the Wit, The Sting)

Hope that Helps.

P 'The Sontag of SDN' ShankOut
 

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indianboy said:
Finally, P&S has yet to fully address the items in transition: (7) curriculum content; (8) resident preparation for teaching; (9) student diversity; (10) career counseling; (11) student health services; (12) appointment and promotion within the non-tenure track; and (13) faculty satisfaction with the availability and accessibility of information technology support and services.

phew...glad this white boy got in before the axe fell.



i'm just kiddin. don't attack me.
 

automaton

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big ups to indianboy!
 

O'doyleRules

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Hmmm, saw this thread and was disturbed....looks like the pre-med folks these are higher on the due diligence scale than I was for sure. Columbia is now fully LCME approved, so no need to worry future P&Sers. Didn't want people to keep thinking that this crap was an issue now, well not like it was before.

Later gators.
 

Dr.TobiasFünke

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O'doyleRules said:
Hmmm, saw this thread and was disturbed....looks like the pre-med folks these are higher on the due diligence scale than I was for sure. Columbia is now fully LCME approved, so no need to worry future P&Sers. Didn't want people to keep thinking that this crap was an issue now, well not like it was before.


Later gators.
"Liaison Committee on Medical
Education (LCME) has fully accredited our College of Physicians &
Surgeons until the next regularly scheduled review in 2009-10. "

E-mail sent to all students earlier last month...