Official 2014-2015 "Please help me rank these IM Programs" Megathread

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I've pretty much got my rank list nailed down but I can't decide whether to rank Duke or Hopkins #1. From what I'd heard about each's style of residency, I had expected them to be pretty similar, but since interviewing it seems like they're actually both very different and I'm not sure which I'd prefer. I have a bunch of specific questions and thoughts on each, but I figured I wouldn't flood this thread with them (though I'd appreciate doing so by PM) and instead just get people's general thoughts on the type of program/experience each is. I'm interested in academic medicine but honestly don't know what specialty and I have no ties to either Durham or Baltimore.

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Very personal question and really only you can decide how much weight is given to program vs specialty. General advice is to follow what you want to do, which for you might involve going to a crappy program for the specialty that you want. Keep in mind, you're going to be working in that field a lot longer than you'll be training at the program. Only you can decide if its worth it.

This is the correct advice. If you're lucky, you'll work for 30+ years. A colleague of mine did his residency at a h*ll hole in Chicago and now, nearing retirement, fondly talks about the Tb ward and working day and night. Crazy, of course. But this is how our brains work and explains why people have more than one child.
 
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yeah, serious question. is one better than the other reputationally? or are they essentially equivalent? no one is saying they are not BOTH excellent institutions. im just asking which is better, if an answer exists to that question.
 
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I was left with the feeling the one trolling was the "moderator". After reading the thread I am finding the constant sarcasm a little old. There is nothing wrong with the question.

Both institutions are excellent but most people would say that Penn has greater reputation, cachet and prestige, unless you are from the South. Duke has had some specialties go "unfilled" some years which is really unbelievable for an institution of this caliber.

The culture is very different at both as well.
 
Hey everyone,

I'm trying to decide how to rank 3 fantastic programs: Hopkins, Penn, and Columbia. No I'm not trolling either, just looking for honest, potentially helpful feedback.

Some background:
I loved all 3 programs almost equally; I loved Hopkins (intern autonomy, rich tradition, commitment to teaching and research) the most but the location is the worst of the 3. Columbia I liked slightly the least (language barriers, below average ancillary services) but the location is the best. Penn is in the middle for both. The issue is that my SO lives on the east coast but will likely move to California (he's an MD/PhD student aiming for Stanford or UCSF residencies) around the time I'll be starting fellowship. That means I need an east coast residency that will best allow me to go to California for fellowship (most likely Cardiology or GI). I'm planning for an academic career.

Much thanks, and feel free to PM me if you'd rather not post here.
 
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Hey everyone,

I'm trying to decide how to rank 3 fantastic programs: Hopkins, Penn, and Columbia. No I'm not trolling either, just looking for honest, potentially helpful feedback.

Some background:
I loved all 3 programs almost equally; I loved Hopkins (resident autonomy, rich tradition, commitment to teaching and research) the most but the location is the worst of the 3. Columbia I liked slightly the least (language barriers, below average ancillary services) but the location is the best. Penn is in the middle for both. The issue is, my SO lives on the east coast but wants to go to the west coast for residency once he finishes his MD/PhD program. That means I need an east coast residency that will best allow me to go to the west coast for fellowship (most likely Cardiology or GI). I'm planning for an academic career.

Much thanks, and feel free to PM me if you'd rather not post here.

I was in your shoes years ago. Graduating from any of these programs will help you land ANY fellowship you want. All it will take is a phone call from your attending in the specialty you are planning to go into. Penn seems to have a stronger connection with some of the west coast programs (UCSF in particular). I also see a lot of people going back and forth between Penn and Hopkins in their training. Hopkins takes really good care of their people. I share your impression on Columbia which has the weakest links with the west coast from all three.
 
I was left with the feeling the one trolling was the "moderator". After reading the thread I am finding the constant sarcasm a little old. There is nothing wrong with the question.

I tend to agree with this.

@gutonc Why do you feel the need to respond to every post? If you think the posts asking about ranking top tier programs are so ridiculous you can simply ignore them!
 
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I was left with the feeling the one trolling was the "moderator". After reading the thread I am finding the constant sarcasm a little old. There is nothing wrong with the question.

Both institutions are excellent but most people would say that Penn has greater reputation, cachet and prestige, unless you are from the South. Duke has had some specialties go "unfilled" some years which is really unbelievable for an institution of this caliber.

The culture is very different at both as well.

You must be new around here.
 
I tend to agree with this.

@gutonc Why do you feel the need to respond to every post? If you think the posts asking about ranking top tier programs are so ridiculous you can simply ignore them!

Oh seriously, are you REALLY going to go on with your hurt ass about this *again* this year too??
 
wow, duke, hopkins, penn, columbia... you guys are too smart for me.
 
yeah, serious question. is one better than the other reputationally? or are they essentially equivalent? no one is saying they are not BOTH excellent institutions. im just asking which is better, if an answer exists to that question.
No answer exists to that question. Which one did you like better? Rank that one first.
 
I tend to agree with this.

@gutonc Why do you feel the need to respond to every post? If you think the posts asking about ranking top tier programs are so ridiculous you can simply ignore them!
Man, if you're going to call me out, at least do it for a legitimately douchey post. I've probably posted a dozen times in this thread (admittedly, that's 13 or 14 more than I intended to when this horror show got started) so if you're going to get your panties in a wad, at least do it over something like this post.
 
I've pretty much got my rank list nailed down but I can't decide whether to rank Duke or Hopkins #1. From what I'd heard about each's style of residency, I had expected them to be pretty similar, but since interviewing it seems like they're actually both very different and I'm not sure which I'd prefer. I have a bunch of specific questions and thoughts on each, but I figured I wouldn't flood this thread with them (though I'd appreciate doing so by PM) and instead just get people's general thoughts on the type of program/experience each is. I'm interested in academic medicine but honestly don't know what specialty and I have no ties to either Durham or Baltimore.

Any thoughts on Duke vs. Hopkins?
 
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Hey everyone,

I'm trying to decide how to rank 3 fantastic programs: Hopkins, Penn, and Columbia. No I'm not trolling either, just looking for honest, potentially helpful feedback.

Some background:
I loved all 3 programs almost equally; I loved Hopkins (intern autonomy, rich tradition, commitment to teaching and research) the most but the location is the worst of the 3. Columbia I liked slightly the least (language barriers, below average ancillary services) but the location is the best. Penn is in the middle for both. The issue is that my SO lives on the east coast but will likely move to California (he's an MD/PhD student aiming for Stanford or UCSF residencies) around the time I'll be starting fellowship. That means I need an east coast residency that will best allow me to go to California for fellowship (most likely Cardiology or GI). I'm planning for an academic career.

Much thanks, and feel free to PM me if you'd rather not post here.

Hopkins and Penn have slightly better reps than Columbia, but you're obviously not limiting yourself from any of them. Columbia makes the most sense if you want to be in the NYC area long-term, but if your goal is to come out to California, the other two are slightly better all else being equal. Good luck.
 
I vote Hopkins. Oh wait since I might wanna go there too I change that to Duke.
Similar enough reps that I would base decision on where you'd like to live, unless you got a better feel of a fit in one program's culture versus another (though those two are pretty similar). I would live in Durham over Baltimore, but that's just me.
 
Similar enough reps that I would base decision on where you'd like to live, unless you got a better feel of a fit in one program's culture versus another (though those two are pretty similar). I would live in Durham over Baltimore, but that's just me.
durham is nicer than baltimore, albeit smaller. you just have to decide what kind of place you want to live in. for me, i think philly and baltimore are equal enough that the decision is harder.
 
Brief thought on Penn vs Hopkins vs Duke. Truly cannot go wrong with any of these based on program quality alone. PDs are all superb, residents are all superb. I think Penn or Hopkins vs Duke should be easier to choose based on location...Philly or BAL are very different from Durham.

It's the Penn vs. Hopkins as per above that is a challenging question. Likely be equally happy at both and equally as competent, so the luxury is in choosing based on more miniscule factors...things that can help are specific research interests that can be met at one easier over the other depending on faculty one may know. Honestly though, I would guess a majority of those trying to figure out Penn vs Hopkins for 1/2 will match at one of them...and at the end of the day that's what we (or at least I) can be happily satisfied with.
 
Trying to figure out where to put Georgetown and Drexel on my list...interested in reputation and training quality mostly. I've read nothing but bad things about Drexel but those threads are a few years old, and GT doesn't seem to get much love either. Any insight into these two???

Bump. I know it's not duke vs Hopkins, but I would appreciate any input :)
 
Bang the hawt blond or the hawt brunette??

Life is so hard.

I'm going to need to give this thread a week while you all debate the difference between the top programs for people that just don't. Know. What. To. Do. The. Horror.

As always anyone too embarrassed to post a list with all of the top program masturbation going on in here can PM me.
 
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just a general question, how much emphasis should the program director have on a decision? Really liked one program and the people and the location, but I thought the PD was kind of a weirdo and insincere.
 
just a general question, how much emphasis should the program director have on a decision? Really liked one program and the people and the location, but I thought the PD was kind of a weirdo and insincere.

My favorite part of the program, the PD!

Ha.

Anyway. A bad PD can destroy a program and an amazing PD can make a mediocre program shine. Most of us are not in either 5% end of the bell curve. The strongest programs have several really strong senior leaders, whether or not they are the PD or APDs. These multiple strong leaders tend to dilute the effect of a bad PD. On the other hand, the qualities you list as problematic (weird, insincere) are not really that bad in the scheme of things. Verbally abusive, playing favorites, bullying, using his position to exploit residents, largely absent and/or neglectful....these are the qualities that would make me worry much more.
 
@jdh71 @gutonc just thought you guys would have better things to do with your time than moan and groan about SDN posts... but guess not... to each his own

just a general question, how much emphasis should the program director have on a decision? Really liked one program and the people and the location, but I thought the PD was kind of a weirdo and insincere.

the top two programs i ranked had 2 of my 3 favorite PDs... i think it's a combination of coincidence and the culture a good PD brings to a program. it does not, however, make up for other deficiencies. For instance I loved the PD at georgetown but there were bigger issues with the program that made me rank it quite low (rotate through too many hospitals, no EMR, salary is way too low for DC). My point is that you really need to go with your gut when evaluating the PD and it is absolutely an important criteria that you should factor in.
 
@jdh71 @gutonc just thought you guys would have better things to do with your time than moan and groan about SDN posts... but guess not... to each his own



the top two programs i ranked had 2 of my 3 favorite PDs... i think it's a combination of coincidence and the culture a good PD brings to a program. it does not, however, make up for other deficiencies. For instance I loved the PD at georgetown but there were bigger issues with the program that made me rank it quite low (rotate through too many hospitals, no EMR, salary is way too low for DC). My point is that you really need to go with your gut when evaluating the PD and it is absolutely an important criteria that you should factor in.

One wonders if you appreciate . . . irony.

Lol.

Apply cream as liberally as you need doctor to whatever burning feeling you may have in your rear.
 
Hi everyone, I would appreciate input in ranking these programs in terms of reputation/quality of program. Interested in Hem/Onc in future.

Programs:
OHSU
Utah
Wisconsin
Baylor (Houston)
UC Davis
USC
 
Hi everyone, I would appreciate input in ranking these programs in terms of reputation/quality of program. Interested in Hem/Onc in future.

Programs:
OHSU
Utah
Wisconsin
Baylor (Houston)
UC Davis
USC
If that were my list it would look exactly the same (other than having Baylor at the bottom just because I hate Texas).
 
Thanks everyone. Now to split hairs over this for the next month or so...
 
Hi everyone, I would appreciate input in ranking these programs in terms of reputation/quality of program. Interested in Hem/Onc in future.

Programs:
OHSU
Utah
Wisconsin
Baylor (Houston)
UC Davis
USC

Nice list. I think location largely trumps your decision making process here. They are are in basically the same ballpark and all have essentially the same career trajectory help for name and training. By pure rep, I say Davis at the bottom and Wisconsin of OHSU at the top. Can't really go wrong here. I promise. Rank how you like.
 
Hi everyone, I would appreciate input in ranking these programs in terms of reputation/quality of program. Interested in Hem/Onc in future.

Programs:
OHSU
Utah
Wisconsin
Baylor (Houston)
UC Davis
USC

Agree that location should be a priority here, as long as you keep UC Davis at the bottom. OHSU is unquestionably the program with the best reputation. I would go with Wisconsin next. It is a very nice program.
 
Thanks for the input everyone. One question AttendingMD, you said location should be priority as long as UC Davis on bottom. What is your reasoning for this... reputation?
 
Agree that location should be a priority here, as long as you keep UC Davis at the bottom. OHSU is unquestionably the program with the best reputation. I would go with Wisconsin next. It is a very nice program.
I'd argue that several of those programs have a better rep than OHSU...and I say that as a former resident, fellow and current attending there.
 
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I'd argue that several of those programs have a better rep than OHSU...and I say that as a former resident, fellow and current attending there.


"Unquestionably" is always a tactical error.[/QUOTE

And I am not interested in arguing, but unquestionably your opinion should be taken into consideration. I have not heard that before and... I disagree with you. Your program director is an awesome lady by the way. She has a great personality. Down to earth, humble and very enthusiastic. She makes the program very attractive to the applicants who meet her. I just hope she does not ask you to complete the Doximity survey.........;).
 
And I am not interested in arguing, but unquestionably your opinion should be taken into consideration. I have not heard that before and... I disagree with you. Your program director is an awesome lady by the way. She has a great personality. Down to earth, humble and very enthusiastic. She makes the program very attractive to the applicants who meet her. I just hope she does not ask you to complete the Doximity survey.........;).

You know what they say about opinions.

Maybe once you remember that you might begin to have a realistic appreciation of how silly so much of this splitting hairs about ranking actually is.

This is my 7th it 8th rodeo in here. Walk a mile. And you may understand gutonc and myself. Underneath it all we want what is best for everyone. It's why we still even post.
 
I was left with the feeling the one trolling was the "moderator". After reading the thread I am finding the constant sarcasm a little old. There is nothing wrong with the question.

Both institutions are excellent but most people would say that Penn has greater reputation, cachet and prestige, unless you are from the South. Duke has had some specialties go "unfilled" some years which is really unbelievable for an institution of this caliber.

The culture is very different at both as well.

I disagree. I feel that Duke has a better reputation and delivers stronger training. I have met a handful of people from Penn and they are alright. I have met a plethora of Dukies and they have ALL been exceptional.

Duke had spots go unfilled a few years ago because they refused to play the game and rank most of the people they interviewed. With regards to the Duke cards match being unfilled it was because the residents at Duke wanted to go somewhere else. So Duke only ranked a handful of people and most of their IM residents wanted to go elsewhere.
 
Hey everyone,

I'm trying to decide how to rank 3 fantastic programs: Hopkins, Penn, and Columbia. No I'm not trolling either, just looking for honest, potentially helpful feedback.

Some background:
I loved all 3 programs almost equally; I loved Hopkins (intern autonomy, rich tradition, commitment to teaching and research) the most but the location is the worst of the 3. Columbia I liked slightly the least (language barriers, below average ancillary services) but the location is the best. Penn is in the middle for both. The issue is that my SO lives on the east coast but will likely move to California (he's an MD/PhD student aiming for Stanford or UCSF residencies) around the time I'll be starting fellowship. That means I need an east coast residency that will best allow me to go to California for fellowship (most likely Cardiology or GI). I'm planning for an academic career.

Much thanks, and feel free to PM me if you'd rather not post here.

Any would be good. I think Hopkins and Columbia deliver the strongest training but not by much. Baltimore isn't that bad.
 
Any would be good. I think Hopkins and Columbia deliver the strongest training but not by much. Baltimore isn't that bad.

Thanks for the input. One of my concerns with Hopkins is the fellowship matchlist shows so many Hopkins residents staying at Hopkins for fellowship, whereas I'm interested in going to the west coast for fellowship (b/c of my significant other). Do Hopkins residents, for whatever reason, struggle to match in California for fellowship? I can't imagine that's the case, but the match list is hard to interpret.
 
You know what they say about opinions.

Maybe once you remember that you might begin to have a realistic appreciation of how silly so much of this splitting hairs about ranking actually is.

This is my 7th it 8th rodeo in here. Walk a mile. And you may understand gutonc and myself. Underneath it all we want what is best for everyone. It's why we still even post.

As a matter of fact I have already posted in here what they say about opinions. And I think I understand the two of you. The problem is that the "well intended message" is getting lost with the overdone sarcasm and the irony. None of these guys come here for that, and your posts really become a turn off which most readers ignore. After 44,657 messages it must be extremely tedious to be repeating the same opinions, trying to answer the same questions and be lecturing everyone about what life should be really about. And when that happens, perhaps it is time to retire.... or to take a longer break....Otherwise, the motivation appears to be wanting to get into silly arguments to ridicule others or to show "wit".

And really, I appreciated the post.
 
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Thanks for the input. One of my concerns with Hopkins is the fellowship matchlist shows so many Hopkins residents staying at Hopkins for fellowship, whereas I'm interested in going to the west coast for fellowship (b/c of my significant other). Do Hopkins residents, for whatever reason, struggle to match in California for fellowship? I can't imagine that's the case, but the match list is hard to interpret.

There is a lot of inbreeding at Hopkins and it starts in med school. If you look at their match lists, they keep a lot of their students every year. I think they just "like their own". The same thing happens with fellowships. Most graduates really like Hopkins and they end up staying as well. It seems to be a mutual thing. Penn and Harvard programs seem to have a better connection with the west coast, in particular UCSF.

And no worries. Hopkins residents do not struggle to get fellowships anywhere.
 
As a matter of fact I have already posted in here what they say about opinions. And I think I understand the two of you. The problem is that the "well intended message" is getting lost with the overdone sarcasm and the irony. None of these guys come here for that, and your posts really become a turn off which most readers ignore. After 44,657 messages it must be extremely tedious to be repeating the same opinions, trying to answer the same questions and be lecturing everyone about what life should be really about. And when that happens, perhaps it is time to retire.... or to take a longer break....Otherwise, the motivation appears to be wanting to get into silly arguments to ridicule others or to show "wit".

And really, I appreciated the post.

Every year *somebody* makes your argument. The problem is very few people actually agree with you. I deliver EXACTLY what this forum needs. I post in here because folks, like you, *think* you know what you are talking about but don't. Your own lack of humility and insight is something you need to work out, if you want. It's your personal growth not mine. I post here to actually help out people who need it and my in box is full of that help. Year after year. Season after season. It's definitely not time to "retire". The neuroticism of this place, which is the cancer that is trying to kill it, needs me and gutonc. The only way for you to realize that is probably to keep quiet and pay more attention. But it's a free country, free internet, and a free forum and you can do what you like. Everyone has a right to be wrong.

I'm often puzzled by how often folks like to bring up my number of posts like it should be something to be ashamed of. This judgement is based on what I don't know.
 
Thanks for the input. One of my concerns with Hopkins is the fellowship matchlist shows so many Hopkins residents staying at Hopkins for fellowship, whereas I'm interested in going to the west coast for fellowship (b/c of my significant other). Do Hopkins residents, for whatever reason, struggle to match in California for fellowship? I can't imagine that's the case, but the match list is hard to interpret.

Most of the people at Hopkins are from the east coast so they tend to stay on the east coast (Duke, penn, MGH, columbia and yes Hopkins). Those from California tend to match at Stanford, ucsf or ucla over the last few years. My year, the year prior and last year the Cali guys matched at ucsf for cards. Very, very few of my classmates wanted to go to California. I for instance didn't even apply there. Everyone I know from Hopkins who wanted to be in Cali matched in Cali. As to why people tend to stay at Hopkins, well there are few other places with stronger fellowships that are better to start an academic career (if that's what you want)
 
Temple, UIC, Rush...

How would you guys rank these 3? Want to do Cardiology/GI
 
just a general question, how much emphasis should the program director have on a decision? Really liked one program and the people and the location, but I thought the PD was kind of a weirdo and insincere.
To me, the PD should be one of the more important aspects you're looking at. The PD (along with the Chair at some places) sets the tone of the program, the emphasis of the program, etc. if you have a PD who is really passionate about education, is a good person, and is well-respected, the PD can make a really positive difference for you and for the program. It has been transformative at many programs over the years.

If you got a bad vibe from the PD somewhere I would personally steer clear unless you have other strong reasons to want to be there.

Best of luck!
 
How would you rank the following programs? I may be interested in GI or Pulm crit

Rochester
Brown
Case Western
Cleveland Clinic
Jefferson
UMaryland
Hopkins Bayview
Einstein
Rush
UIC
 
I would appreciate some input on my rank list. Reputation (I'm a DO, so residency reputation is pretty important for my fellowship application I imagine), opportunities in global health and lifestyle are my three priorities. I have some Midwest bias as well. Malignant Heme is the plan. Am I crazy not to have Mayo at #1? I feel like there are lots of jabs at Mayo's program on SDN, but I don't really know what's behind that.

U Minnesota (3 training sites, resident friendly, tons of international opportunity, 4+4 schedule is nice, lots of BMT)
Mayo- Rochester (best reputation, tons of opportunities)
Loyola (Great PD, their schedule seems solid, friends/family in chicago, strong BMT)
CCF (Lots of research opportunity and impressive match list, Heme/Onc wasn't their strength, though?)
OHSU (60% + training at the VA was a turn off; otherwise the program seemed strong, and Portland is cool)
U Colorado (I don't really ski and the residents seemed overworked.)

Anyways, that's my thought process. I appreciate any input or another perspective on how my priorities may be misplaced.
 
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