Official 2015-2016 "What Are My Chances" Thread

[bkpsych22]

Can anyone name 5-6 safety schools on the east coat? It's so tough to gauge which one's are safety schools given the quantity on the east coast. Thank you!!

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[splik]

Can anyone name 5-6 safety schools on the east coat?

you are applying to hospitals not schools, for a job not a degree, where you will be an employee not a student, and receive a salary not a stipend. These are important distinctions because the unfortunate and unthinking mindset of medical students and residents is part of the reason residents continue to be underpaid, undervalued, mistreated, and then go on to become staff physicians who are similarly oppressed. Residents frustratingly often don't seem to realize that they receive certain benefits and entitlements as a result of being employees (including the right to collectively bargain), and that their first duty to their patients.

why people continue to infantilize themselves i do not know...

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Can anyone name 5-6 safety schools on the east coat? It's so tough to gauge which one's are safety schools given the quantity on the east coast. Thank you!!

Wait a minute. Bkpsych22 is simply asking which programs on the east coast are not considered too competitive to match into. I'm glad med students are thinking along these lines because you want variety when applying to residencies - some reach, some middle, some safety.

To Bkpsych22, I know the West Coast, not really the East Coast so unfortunately I can't be much help. But others here should be able to help you.

 

[lockian]

you are applying to hospitals not schools, for a job not a degree, where you will be an employee not a student, and receive a salary not a stipend. These are important distinctions because the unfortunate and unthinking mindset of medical students and residents is part of the reason residents continue to be underpaid, undervalued, mistreated, and then go on to become staff physicians who are similarly oppressed. Residents frustratingly often don't seem to realize that they receive certain benefits and entitlements as a result of being employees (including the right to collectively bargain), and that their first duty to their patients.

why people continue to infantilize themselves i do not know...

Hm, well, it might have something to do with the fact that many hospitals where residency training takes place are in fact affiliated with a university, and for one reason or another resident groups admitted within the same year are still called "classes."

Still, I understand your point, and one way in which FREIDA is helpful is in fact my listing salaries, benefit packages, and work schedules in an organized manner. Down the line, I think these things will be very important when I rank my choices (for instance, medical and dental insurance, preferably fully covered, are key me), but at this stage in the game I'm just trying to make sure I have a reasonable change at being employed at all.

 

[675015]

Dream programs- NYC, particularly Columbia; Harvard programs
Realistically, I would hope to end up near Pittsburgh, near my family.
.

Why Columbia or the "Harvard programs"... is your dream just to have the name of a program people recognize? For someone who hopes to end up near Pittsburgh, I'd think the dream program would be WPIC @ Pitt...

 

[Psychotic]

Can anyone name 5-6 safety schools on the east coat? It's so tough to gauge which one's are safety schools given the quantity on the east coast. Thank you!!

By "east coast" do you mean NYC / Boston corridor? Or really anywhere from Miami to Portland, ME?

If NYC, several come to mind, and I would say anything outside the Top 4 - look at Beth Israel, Einstein, Roosevelt, etc.

Maine, Dartmouth...although not a safety per se, check out Brown.

That's 5 or 6 for you.

 

[GettingPsyched]

.

 

[Monkey House]

Step 1: 200
Step 2 CK/ CS: 217
School: Average midwest school
Class Rank: Middle
Grades in Clerkship: All pass with very good reviews
AOA: No

Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: 14 research publications/presentations since the start of med school (in cardiology); 1 psych paper pending to major journal; I'm a non-traditional student in my late 20's who worked in another field for a few years-- management position, strong job title, stands out apps especially for a med student, etc.; A few volunteering positions including one I've been working with for many years and a couple international medical mission trips.

Red Flags: (step failures, etc) Mediocre step scores, but no fails.

Overview of where you want to end up: Preferably somewhere that is research-oriented in the midwest or east coast (and probably southeast too). Top in my mind are: Northwestern, Michigan, Yale, Columbia, NYU, Penn, UNC, Miami. I'll obviously apply to more schools, but I'd like to hear where you guys think I stand, and if you think my background helps. Thank you!

I would make sure to explain that despite 14 cardiology papers - you are actually interested in psychiatry. A strong medicine background is a very good thing for psychiatry - esp for CL psychiatry - but you need to frame it correctly - and make it come across as that and not that you found psychiatry at the end.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

you are applying to hospitals not schools, for a job not a degree, where you will be an employee not a student, and receive a salary not a stipend. These are important distinctions because the unfortunate and unthinking mindset of medical students and residents is part of the reason residents continue to be underpaid, undervalued, mistreated, and then go on to become staff physicians who are similarly oppressed. Residents frustratingly often don't seem to realize that they receive certain benefits and entitlements as a result of being employees (including the right to collectively bargain), and that their first duty to their patients.

why people continue to infantilize themselves i do not know...

I love this post. I seriously started to want to hit people when they asked me how school was going or how much longer I'd be in school or made statements like "you've been in school forever" when I was in the midst of residency and fellowship. I had a job! I earned money (less than I should but still), paid taxes and had a retirement savings account. I had to show up one time every morning. It's not school!

 

[GettingPsyched]

I would make sure to explain that despite 14 cardiology papers - you are actually interested in psychiatry. A strong medicine background is a very good thing for psychiatry - esp for CL psychiatry - but you need to frame it correctly - and make it come across as that and not that you found psychiatry at the end.

That's great advice. Thank you.

The agreement I had with my PI was that I would work with him through graduation and he would keep my closely involved with his projects. I would have liked to shift my focus in research along with my shift in specialty interest, but we had an agreement that I couldn't, in good conscience, break.

 

[splik]

I love this post. I seriously started to want to hit people when they asked me how school was going or how much longer I'd be in school or made statements like "you've been in school forever" when I was in the midst of residency and fellowship. I had a job! I earned money (less than I should but still), paid taxes and had a retirement savings account. I had to show up one time every morning. It's not school!

apologies for derailing this thread with my tirade but this is a very important point and applicants who continue to refer to applying to "schools" deserve what they get. when you are crushed by the weight of your debt and work along side PAs or ARNPs who make more than double what you do with a quarter of the training, who don't even work 40 hours a week, never take call, and may not even write notes (I **** you not!) maybe you will think twice.

otherwise - I am happy to offer my thoughts to those who do not refer to schools etc

 

[splik]

Hm, well, it might have something to do with the fact that many hospitals where residency training takes place are in fact affiliated with a university, and for one reason or another resident groups admitted within the same year are still called "classes."

fair point but don't drink the kool aid - this part of the pernicious trend in graduate medical education to keep residents oppressed. did you know that residents actually make less now than they did in the 1970s when adjusted despite having unprecedented levels of debt? and while peddling this nonsense that residents are students when it suits them, the GME-industrial complex bemoans the decline in work ethic and patient ownership responsibility residents show.

(in fairness psych residents probably have it much better than others because of the hours we keep and the fact that unlike other residents who are cash cows for the hospital we, at least in outpatient years, are probably a financial black hole...but even then we often provide care to patients that no one else will)

 

[Monkey House]

fair point but don't drink the kool aid - this part of the pernicious trend in graduate medical education to keep residents oppressed. did you know that residents actually make less now than they did in the 1970s when adjusted despite having unprecedented levels of debt? and while peddling this nonsense that residents are students when it suits them, the GME-industrial complex bemoans the decline in work ethic and patient ownership responsibility residents show.

(in fairness psych residents probably have it much better than others because of the hours we keep and the fact that unlike other residents who are cash cows for the hospital we, at least in outpatient years, are probably a financial black hole...but even then we often provide care to patients that no one else will)

Woooahhhhh.....As a resident who knows many psych residents across the country I can say that the vast vast majority are very happy and very glad they picked psychiatry. None feel oppressed. Perhaps it is different in other specialties.....I don't know....but this really does not apply to psychiatry residency.

Happy to take any questions on why you should of course apply!

 

[Monkey House]

Hi guys, don't even know if there's any point in posting this but maybe I'll get some good advice here.

psychiatry has always been my second choice first being anesthesiology, all my LORs are from anesthesiologists, I did observership in anesthesiology and in my home country I'm EM resident PGY1,

I know how irresponsible this may sound but closer I get to Sep 15 the harder it is for me to imagine myself anywhere other than psychiatry, I know I will not be happy if I match in anesthesiology, I am sure I will regret not trying to get in psychiatry and now with soo little room to change anything, my application is all geared up towards anesthesia

I am desperate, don't know if I should wait for 1 year and do some research, observership etc in psychiatry to show interest and then try to match in a good program. the idea of another lost year is killing me but I don't want to match in some bad place and receive bad training makeing myself more miserable. my step scores are 219/244/pass->ECFMG certified

I would apply this year. Can you get a letter from your home psychiatry folks explaining that you have met with them and they now understand the switch. Could be very helpful?

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

fair point but don't drink the kool aid - this part of the pernicious trend in graduate medical education to keep residents oppressed. did you know that residents actually make less now than they did in the 1970s when adjusted despite having unprecedented levels of debt? and while peddling this nonsense that residents are students when it suits them, the GME-industrial complex bemoans the decline in work ethic and patient ownership responsibility residents show.

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill

Our Graduate Medical Education establishment is the worst medical training except all the others on planet Earth. Complain all you want, it is still the best way to become as competent as is possible with a more than fair earning potential when all is said and done. If it were becoming such a bad deal, why is everyone trying so hard to pound their way in from non-traditional angles? No one is going to pay residents more because no one feels sorry for them despite their hard work for modest pay. There are thousands of unlicensed doctors out there who would train for free if we would let them.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

 

[Doctor Bagel]

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill

Our Graduate Medical Education establishment is the worst medical training except all the others on planet Earth. Complain all you want, it is still the best way to become as competent as is possible with a more than fair earning potential when all is said and done. If it were becoming such a bad deal, why is everyone trying so hard to pound their way in from non-traditional angles? No one is going to pay residents more because no one feels sorry for them despite their hard work for modest pay. There are thousands of unlicensed doctors out there who would train for free if we would let them.

Says the program director -- otherwise known as "the man."

Seriously, though, if location and other things weren't a factor, I wound have liked to have trained at a program with unionized residents.

 

[notdeadyet]

fair point but don't drink the kool aid - this part of the pernicious trend in graduate medical education to keep residents oppressed. did you know that residents actually make less now than they did in the 1970s when adjusted despite having unprecedented levels of debt? and while peddling this nonsense that residents are students when it suits them, the GME-industrial complex bemoans the decline in work ethic and patient ownership responsibility residents show.

I think the mistake folks make is comparing medicine to the working world as a whole. When you do this, it's a lot of stress and abuse. When you compare it to other professional fields, it's pretty close to par.

Folks starting out at your average law firm will put in more hours than we do in residency. Your average programmer will as well. We may get verbal abuse and get stuff scuttled tour, but this is true for many folks operating in an apprenticeship model (ask a fire fighter how his probie year went). The difference between us and these other fields? We have a 40 hour/$200K/year job for life afterwards.

Residency only seems like the great injustice if you haven't worked in many other fields. The grass may look greener, but it isn't. The reason the volume gets louder and louder on the subject corresponds to the general sense of entitlement: both from entitled residents and entitled companies. (this isn't limited to medicine, god knows)

You can avoid much of this by carefully selecting a good program. An unentitled residency that will not treat you like indentured servants and unentitled residents that don't treat every request to pitch in to problems solve as a scene from Norma Rae. This isn't directed at you, splik, just at the sense that GME holds even a small candle to the actual injustices we work very close to every day.

 

[notdeadyet]

Seriously, though, if location and other things weren't a factor, I wound have liked to have trained at a program with unionized residents.

I wonder about this. I've seen some toxic programs with unionized residencies that are adversarial and both sides dig their heels. They only look good when you compare them to what they might have looked like pre-union.

When interviewing, I'd suggest candidates always ask for the impressions of residents they meet as to what the relationship between residents and the administration is like. It's incredibly different from program to program and I don't think unions have a lot to do with it. Administrations that respect residents and residents that respect their administrations are just much more pleasant places to work.

It's like marriage. It's a tough enough job even when everyone likes each other.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I think the mistake folks make is comparing medicine to the working world as a whole. When you do this, it's a lot of stress and abuse. When you compare it to other professional fields, it's pretty close to par.

Folks starting out at your average law firm will put in more hours than we do in residency. Your average programmer will as well. We may get verbal abuse and get stuff scuttled tour, but this is true for many folks operating in an apprenticeship model (ask a fire fighter how his probie year went). The difference between us and these other fields? We have a 40 hour/$200K/year job for life afterwards.

Residency only seems like the great injustice if you haven't worked in many other fields. The grass may look greener, but it isn't. The reason the volume gets louder and louder on the subject corresponds to the general sense of entitlement: both from entitled residents and entitled companies. (this isn't limited to medicine, god knows)

You can avoid much of this by carefully selecting a good program. An unentitled residency that will not treat you like indentured servants and unentitled residents that don't treat every request to pitch in to problems solve as a scene from Norma Rae. This isn't directed at you, splik, just at the sense that GME holds even a small candle to the actual injustices we work very close to every day.

Yeah, there are lots of people who have it worse. Sitting here working in community MH, I work with people with masters degrees who are making $40k in a not too cheap city and carrying huge caseloads. My primary complaints are loan burdens, which are a big issue when coupled with lower wages during residency (meaning you can't make real payments) and high interest rates. Lawyers who get big firm jobs (admittedly the lucky few) make $160k/year immediately after law school for, yeah, horrible work hours, but still, they can really start paying their loans as soon as they leave school. My husband's a software developer, and he works 40 and 60 hours/week, making way less than I can make as an attending. He masters degree was free, though, through TA funding.

I think the big stressful thing with medical training is that if you don't successfully complete any one hurdle, you're done, and that's it. So winding up at a malignant program could potentially be career killing, and you might not know what that malignant program would be. People in other fields have an easier time moving around between positions. Again, not saying we have it horrible -- there are always people worse off -- but that doesn't mean we should be entirely complacent.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Our residents are unionized, but I don’t think most of them have much awareness. Being a participant in physician wellness, I can tell you most union activity centers on protecting trainees who find themselves in progressive discipline problems. Sure, once in a while the union can fight for better coffee, but their role in defining due process predominates. The funny thing is that more often than not, the resident in trouble has burned the support of fellow trainees. We end up in the role of siding with the union and trying to explain why we can’t “just get rid of them” so quickly.


Everyone is working hard so it isn’t surprising when someone does less work for any reason, tolerance evaporates very quickly. It is hard because it is just hard work. I think most programs don’t do anything to make it harder than it has to be.

 

[deleted628516]

I would apply this year. Can you get a letter from your home psychiatry folks explaining that you have met with them and they now understand the switch. Could be very helpful?

I'll be able to get one from psychiatrist and from neurologist whom I worked with in ICU in my country (she told me she can emphasize on my interest in psychiatry) is that a good idea or should I stick with US anesthesia LOR instead of one from neurologist?

 

[Monkey House]

Why Columbia or the "Harvard programs"... is your dream just to have the name of a program people recognize? For someone who hopes to end up near Pittsburgh, I'd think the dream program would be WPIC @ Pitt...

Being part of a "Harvard program" I can easily say WPIC is also a great program and one everyone recognizes. There are many great programs across the country and no one program is right for every applicant. That said, with my bias as part of the Longwood program, I think we are well known not because of the name but rather because we are rather unique in working at BWH, BIDMC, Mass Mental - providing excellent CL and neuropsychaitry and inpatient experiences as well as superb psychotherapy and outpatient training - opening the doors to world class research and service delivery projects - creating leaders in the field - and placing resident's in great fellowships (if they want) or awesome jobs.

 

[NarcolepticPenguin]

Step 1: 247
Step 2 CK/ CS: Taking in November
School: Middle-of-the-group allopathic state school
Class Rank: Middle Third
Grades in Clerkship: Honors in psych, medicine, family med, and peds
AOA: currently applying for it...
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: Did a research elective for medicine with no publications; also planning to do psych research this winter; volunteering at a free clinic and soup kitchen
Red Flags: None
Overview of where you want to end up: Ideally one of the programs in my current state; otherwise any other program with reasonable work-life balance in a state with relatively decent psychiatric support

My concern is that I feel like my CV looks rather empty. I only have two extra-curricular activities from med school, so I'm cushioning it with some of my things from undergrad as well. Otherwise, if any of you can give suggestions on places that you've enjoyed while interviewing, that'd be helpful too.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Step 1: 247
Step 2 CK/ CS: Taking in November
School: Middle-of-the-group allopathic state school
Class Rank: Middle Third
Grades in Clerkship: Honors in psych, medicine, family med, and peds
AOA: currently applying for it...
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: Did a research elective for medicine with no publications; also planning to do psych research this winter; volunteering at a free clinic and soup kitchen
Red Flags: None
Overview of where you want to end up: Ideally one of the programs in my current state; otherwise any other program with reasonable work-life balance in a state with relatively decent psychiatric support

My concern is that I feel like my CV looks rather empty. I only have two extra-curricular activities from med school, so I'm cushioning it with some of my things from undergrad as well. Otherwise, if any of you can give suggestions on places that you've enjoyed while interviewing, that'd be helpful too.

I don't think extracurriculars in medical school are that important in the application process, so I wouldn't worry about it. Putting things from undergrad on your CV is fine as well.

 

[675015]

Being part of a "Harvard program" I can easily say WPIC is also a great program and one everyone recognizes. There are many great programs across the country and no one program is right for every applicant. That said, with my bias as part of the Longwood program, I think we are well known not because of the name but rather because we are rather unique in working at BWH, BIDMC, Mass Mental - providing excellent CL and neuropsychaitry and inpatient experiences as well as superb psychotherapy and outpatient training - opening the doors to world class research and service delivery projects - creating leaders in the field - and placing resident's in great fellowships (if they want) or awesome jobs.

I'm not saying they are bad programs at all. FWIW Longwood was my favorite Boston program. I'm just saying if someone says their "dream program" is a Harvard program, that could mean Mass Gen, Longwood, CHA, and Southshore, those are all very different programs for pretty different applicants. Coupled with the fact that the posters end goal is to be in Pittsburg... It just suggests that they haven't done enough research yet into what they truly want from a program.

 

[Psychotic]

you are applying to hospitals not schools, for a job not a degree, where you will be an employee not a student, and receive a salary not a stipend. These are important distinctions because the unfortunate and unthinking mindset of medical students and residents is part of the reason residents continue to be underpaid, undervalued, mistreated, and then go on to become staff physicians who are similarly oppressed. Residents frustratingly often don't seem to realize that they receive certain benefits and entitlements as a result of being employees (including the right to collectively bargain), and that their first duty to their patients.

why people continue to infantilize themselves i do not know...

An aside to this discussion: I recently got summoned for jury duty. I carefully read the form to see if I qualified for any exemptions, and it did not appear so. Nothing was ever said during orientation about this, and nothing is mentioned in the GME resident handbook. Still, I contacted my program to tell them what was happening, to inform them I would be out, and I was told by the director of the GME office to emphasize the training aspect, or in other words stress my role as a 'student' to "get out" of jury duty. Important to note here that simply claiming a student status was insufficient for an exemption unless as a local resident I was in another state for, say, college. I felt like my program was pressuring me to get out of it, even if it meant stretching the truth.

It frankly pissed me off, the position my program put me in, but guess what - it worked. But I had the GME director write a letter to the court to explain my situation, because I thought it was a bull**** excuse and I didn't want to make it since I could not for the life of me figure out which box I was supposed to check on the form...on the affidavit I had to submit and sign, under threat of perjury, I noted "see the attached letter from my employer" because I was not comfortable making a claim of student status since I don't believe under any legal interpretation that I am a student, but an employee in a residency training program.

I actually googled this issue and found numerous other programs that dealt with this civil obligation in a more forthright and honest manner; no wrangling or putting pressure on residents to "get out" of the jury duty service - straightforward information on how to handle it, how to account for the time off, etc. No suggestion that residents need to "get out" of it.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

An aside to this discussion: I recently got summoned for jury duty. I carefully read the form to see if I qualified for any exemptions, and it did not appear so. Nothing was ever said during orientation about this, and nothing is mentioned in the GME resident handbook. Still, I contacted my program to tell them what was happening, to inform them I would be out, and I was told by the director of the GME office to emphasize the training aspect, or in other words stress my role as a 'student' to "get out" of jury duty. Important to note here that simply claiming a student status was insufficient for an exemption unless as a local resident I was in another state for, say, college. I felt like my program was pressuring me to get out of it, even if it meant stretching the truth.

It frankly pissed me off, the position my program put me in, but guess what - it worked. But I had the GME director write a letter to the court to explain my situation, because I thought it was a bull**** excuse and I didn't want to make it since I could not for the life of me figure out which box I was supposed to check on the form...on the affidavit I had to submit and sign, under threat of perjury, I noted "see the attached letter from my employer" because I was not comfortable making a claim of student status since I don't believe under any legal interpretation that I am a student, but an employee in a residency training program.

I actually googled this issue and found numerous other programs that dealt with this civil obligation in a more forthright and honest manner; no wrangling or putting pressure on residents to "get out" of the jury duty service - straightforward information on how to handle it, how to account for the time off, etc. No suggestion that residents need to "get out" of it.

A few years ago there was a thing where some programs were trying not to withhold social security for residents on the claim that residents are students and not employees. That didn't seem particularly resident friendly to me -- what if you become permanently disabled during residency or shortly afterwards? I think you would hope you would qualify for social security payments.

http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2011/01...dent-or-employee-supreme-court-has-an-answer/

 

[MeeraReed]

Step 1: 244
Step 2 CK/ CS: pending/Pass
School: IMG
Class Rank: Medical school rank is outstanding, excellent, good, satisfactory - got outstanding.
Grades in Clerkship: Honors in everything, except surgery (high pass), MSPE very narrative with great comments.
AOA: nope
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: 2 first-author in midde and high impact psych journals, 1 co-author in middle-to-low impact psych journal, 7 international congress presentations (3 of them oral), 6 national (home country) congress presentations, have experience with laboratory and had research scholarships, participated in a psych project during gradution for a long time, 4 months of US clinical experience, 4 LORs from US attendings (2 from psychiatrists). Graduated Dec/2014. Lived in the US during childhood, functionally native english.
Red Flags: not certified yet (probably only in October), will have all the scores by September 16th though, so I guess I'll be verified by then.
Overview of where you want to end up: Northeast...around NYC, Boston, Pittsburgh, but plan on applying for good programs a bit furtheras well like in Chicago, Mayo Clinic, Vanderbilt, Emory, some Ohio programs I'm still considering and maaaybe UTSW-Dallas.

I actually already have a program that I really want to match in, I did clerkships there in psych, loved it and the location is great for me, however, not sure they'll give me an IV or rank me high afterwards (although they did really like me at the time) so I have to plan on other good programs, especially since I'm an IMG. Will try to balance it out with the 1/3 rule, was thinking of applying to 40-50 programs (people tell me to apply to about 60, but I just think that's too much). Does that number sound good?

Want academic programs with focus in reasearch and teaching. Have researched many programs, but still find it hard sometimes to understand what exactly the program emphasizes on. Overviews are sometimes not that objective, but maybe thats just me.

Not sure if my delayed certification will impair my application (people also tell me I should apply on September 15th, no later!) since it will probably be available only in October (not sure when). I'm still thinking if I should apply with an incomplete application early (at least after my CK is out) or if I should wait for the certification and apply with everything (but risk programs finishing IV slots), what do you guys think?

Sorry for the wall of text!

 

[shan564]

Step 1: 244
Step 2 CK/ CS: pending/Pass
School: IMG
Class Rank: Medical school rank is outstanding, excellent, good, satisfactory - got outstanding.
Grades in Clerkship: Honors in everything, except surgery (high pass), MSPE very narrative with great comments.
AOA: nope
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: 2 first-author in midde and high impact psych journals, 1 co-author in middle-to-low impact psych journal, 7 international congress presentations (3 of them oral), 6 national (home country) congress presentations, have experience with laboratory and had research scholarships, participated in a psych project during gradution for a long time, 4 months of US clinical experience, 4 LORs from US attendings (2 from psychiatrists). Graduated Dec/2014. Lived in the US during childhood, functionally native english.
Red Flags: not certified yet (probably only in October), will have all the scores by September 16th though, so I guess I'll be verified by then.
Overview of where you want to end up: Northeast...around NYC, Boston, Pittsburgh, but plan on applying for good programs a bit furtheras well like in Chicago, Mayo Clinic, Vanderbilt, Emory, some Ohio programs I'm still considering and maaaybe UTSW-Dallas.

I actually already have a program that I really want to match in, I did clerkships there in psych, loved it and the location is great for me, however, not sure they'll give me an IV or rank me high afterwards (although they did really like me at the time) so I have to plan on other good programs, especially since I'm an IMG. Will try to balance it out with the 1/3 rule, was thinking of applying to 40-50 programs (people tell me to apply to about 60, but I just think that's too much). Does that number sound good?

Want academic programs with focus in reasearch and teaching. Have researched many programs, but still find it hard sometimes to understand what exactly the program emphasizes on. Overviews are sometimes not that objective, but maybe thats just me.

Not sure if my delayed certification will impair my application (people also tell me I should apply on September 15th, no later!) since it will probably be available only in October (not sure when). I'm still thinking if I should apply with an incomplete application early (at least after my CK is out) or if I should wait for the certification and apply with everything (but risk programs finishing IV slots), what do you guys think?

Sorry for the wall of text!

You'll be competitive at most programs, including most of the ones you suggested. Don't forget to add WashU to your list.

The timing of your ECFMG certification won't matter. As long as you're verified, that should be OK. Most programs will say that they want you to be "certified," but they really mean "verified." I wasn't certified until a month before I started residency.

 

[shan564]

I love this post. I seriously started to want to hit people when they asked me how school was going or how much longer I'd be in school or made statements like "you've been in school forever" when I was in the midst of residency and fellowship. I had a job! I earned money (less than I should but still), paid taxes and had a retirement savings account. I had to show up one time every morning. It's not school!

People just don't know stuff, and they're trying to be polite. When people ask me that question, I usually say something like "oh, thanks for asking... I actually finished school a couple of years ago, and now I'm working as a (resident, junior doctor, etc... depending on who I'm talking to)". Usually this conversation happens with an older family member or family friend, and I come from a culture where religion is big, so in those cases I'll usually answer something that translates directly to "by the grace of God, my studies are complete" in response to a question that translates directly to "son, how are your studies coming along?" (It sounds much less silly in the native language)

 

[MeeraReed]

You'll be competitive at most programs, including most of the ones you suggested. Don't forget to add WashU to your list.

The timing of your ECFMG certification won't matter. As long as you're verified, that should be OK. Most programs will say that they want you to be "certified," but they really mean "verified." I wasn't certified until a month before I started residency.

Thanks for the reply! Good to know about the certification thing, I kind of panicked a little about it, but now I think it should be fine. Took a look at WashU, seems like an interesting program!

Do you think applying to about 40 programs is a good plan? You were an IMG as well, right...did you apply broadly?

 

[shan564]

Thanks for the reply! Good to know about the certification thing, I kind of panicked a little about it, but now I think it should be fine. Took a look at WashU, seems like an interesting program!

Do you think applying to about 40 programs is a good plan? You were an IMG as well, right...did you apply broadly?

40 is probably a good number, considering that you're a strong applicant. I applied to 100 programs, had 25-30 interview invitations, and went to 17 interviews... but that was probably excessive.

 

[lockian]

Step 1: 230
Step 2 CK/ CS: 247/Pass
School: top tier midwest
Class Rank: Medical school rank is outstanding, excellent, good, satisfactory - got good
Grades in Clerkship: high pass in psychiatry and family medicine, low pass in pediatrics, pass in everything else
AOA: no
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: well-rounded in volunteering (including a stint in a peds psych clinic abroad doing outreach), research (1 peer reviewed journal), and leadership (medical school student group), though some was from before medical school
Red Flags: none, I don't think
Where I want to end up: I never got a good answer for this, which is why I'm posting again, but basically I'm looking for a well-rounded program with a decent community component in the Midwest or Southwest or Hawaii.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Step 1: 230
Step 2 CK/ CS: 247/Pass
School: top tier midwest
Class Rank: Medical school rank is outstanding, excellent, good, satisfactory - got good
Grades in Clerkship: high pass in psychiatry and family medicine, low pass in pediatrics, pass in everything else
AOA: no
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: well-rounded in volunteering (including a stint in a peds psych clinic abroad doing outreach), research (1 peer reviewed journal), and leadership (medical school student group), though some was from before medical school
Red Flags: none, I don't think
Where I want to end up: I never got a good answer for this, which is why I'm posting again, but basically I'm looking for a well-rounded program with a decent community component in the Midwest or Southwest or Hawaii.

You're fine--you'll get one of your top 3 if you interview well at all.

 

[vanfanal]

Step 1: 226
Step 2 CK/ CS: 226/Coming up
School: top 10 UK med school, IMG
Class Rank: 2nd decile
Grades in Clerkship: All pass (we only have pass/fail)
AOA: no
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: One-year research project investigating the glutamate theory of schizophrenia. I have an article which I've submitted for publication. Involved in several societies throughout medical school.
Red Flags: None.
Letters: On general medical letter, and one very strong letter from a Canadian psychiatrist. I was thinking about submitting a LOR from my research supervisor as my third which I'm pretty sure will be strong, or should I get another one from a clinician. What do you guys think?

Where I want to end up: Not really sure. I'd like to be in Florida, close to family, but I'll be applying broadly (~100 programs) to maximize my chances.

 

[FollisRenatus]

Step 1: 221
Step 2 CK/ CS: Score Pending
School: MD school in NYS (ranked somewhere between 50-75 on US News back in 2012)
Class Rank: Not sure, likely middle of the road
Grades in Clerkship: Honors in Psychiatry and Pediatrics, High Pass for the rest
AOA: No.
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: Lightweight non-psych research without a publication summer after MS1, ran a music group/club
Red Flags: None
Overview of where you want to end up: Trying to make it back to California.

 

[WalterDonnie]

.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Step 1: USMLE: 249 Comlex: 622
Step 2 CK/ CS: Comlex: 705/P
School: One of the more respected DO schools
Class Rank: 2nd quartile
Grades in Clerkship: Lots of HP(including Psych), a few P
AOA: No.
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: some unpublished undergrad research. Been to a handful of psych conferences. Some standard extracurricular stuff in undergrad and medschool, but nothing too impressive.
Red Flags: None
black flags: I am confident in my interview skills as I have a lot of experience being an interviewee from applying to jobs when younger. I also have some strong remarks on my clerkship comments, and believe my LOR's will speak highly of me.

Overview of where you want to end up: Someplace warm. I'm most likely am applying to most CA programs as well as those in AZ, NV. Thinking of throwing a few from TX on there, UTSW is the only one i've come up with so far. I want to be a strong general psychiatrist who would be competent to pursue whatever direction they decided upon. I don't have a big vision, so its hard to gear towards what specific programs offer. I was just hoping that at my interviews I could decide on places I like.

Any guidance on programs you guys would shoot for if you were me would be really appreciated. I could really use some direction at this point. Also I was thinking I'd apply to around 30, and interview at 16?

Thank you to those people who always respond to these. I gather a lot of information from this site.

Dated information, but I thought New Mexico was fairly solid many years ago. Colder than AZ and NV, but still fairly warm -- it seemed like a better program than the AZ/NV programs, too. For Texas, how about Galveston, Austin and Scott & White? Per other SDN posters, I guess the Houston programs might be very work heavy/less desired by applicants. Austin has reinvented itself like 3 times in my time in the psychiatry world, but it supposedly is a decent program, although maybe more work intensive? I think the notion that Austin is a lot better than the rest of Texas is overblown, but it might get stronger people because it's a desirable location.

 

[Dharma]

Step 1: USMLE: 249 Comlex: 622
Step 2 CK/ CS: Comlex: 705/P
School: One of the more respected DO schools
Class Rank: 2nd quartile
Grades in Clerkship: Lots of HP(including Psych), a few P
AOA: No.
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: some unpublished undergrad research. Been to a handful of psych conferences. Some standard extracurricular stuff in undergrad and medschool, but nothing too impressive.
Red Flags: None
black flags: I am confident in my interview skills as I have a lot of experience being an interviewee from applying to jobs when younger. I also have some strong remarks on my clerkship comments, and believe my LOR's will speak highly of me.

Overview of where you want to end up: Someplace warm. I'm most likely am applying to most CA programs as well as those in AZ, NV. Thinking of throwing a few from TX on there, UTSW is the only one i've come up with so far. I want to be a strong general psychiatrist who would be competent to pursue whatever direction they decided upon. I don't have a big vision, so its hard to gear towards what specific programs offer. I was just hoping that at my interviews I could decide on places I like.

Any guidance on programs you guys would shoot for if you were me would be really appreciated. I could really use some direction at this point. Also I was thinking I'd apply to around 30, and interview at 16?

Thank you to those people who always respond to these. I gather a lot of information from this site.

I'm not gonna be much help here, because I'm at the same stage of the game as you, but I thought I'd pass this link along in case you haven't seen it: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...riendly-psychiatry-residency-programs.955375/ I wouldn't limit yourself to these programs though.

Also, baller scores man! Stat wise you stand head and heels above the competition and if you interview as well as you say, you deserve a shot ANYWHERE (although the game gives you zero chance at some places). I say apply to any reaches you have in mind. Who knows, maybe they'll give you a sniff. Apply the rules of 1/3 and let her ride! Good luck!

 

[enoughsaid12]

Step 1: 221
Step 2 CK/ CS: Score Pending
School: MD school in NYS (ranked somewhere between 50-75 on US News back in 2012)
Class Rank: Not sure, likely middle of the road
Grades in Clerkship: Honors in Psychiatry and Pediatrics, High Pass for the rest
AOA: No.
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: Lightweight non-psych research without a publication summer after MS1, ran a music group/club
Red Flags: None
Overview of where you want to end up: Trying to make it back to California.

You should have no problem getting back to California. I like you am from California and went to school outside of the state. My main goal was getting back, I had pretty similar scores and profile. My advice, apply to all the California schools, knock out the ones you have little interest in once the interviews come in. Because your from outside of Cali you might have to do some emailing if you don't hear back from a few, you might get overlooked because they don't see the Cali connection. I didn't get interviews to my #1 and 2 until after I sent a few emails expressing my interest. I ended up matching at my #1 and now I'm sitting pretty in the California sun. You will be too. Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[lockian]

You should have no problem getting back to California. I like you am from California and went to school outside of the state. My main goal was getting back, I had pretty similar scores and profile. My advice, apply to all the California schools, knock out the ones you have little interest in once the interviews come in. Because your from outside of Cali you might have to do some emailing if you don't hear back from a few, you might get overlooked because they don't see the Cali connection. I didn't get interviews to my #1 and 2 until after I sent a few emails expressing my interest. I ended up matching at my #1 and now I'm sitting pretty in the California sun. You will be too. Let me know if you have any questions.

Is this true for other places where there might not be an obvious connection, or just California? The reason I ask is, I'm applying to lots of places where I don't have an obvious connection, but that's because I want to try something new.

 

[shan564]

Step 1: 226
Step 2 CK/ CS: 226/Coming up
School: top 10 UK med school, IMG
Class Rank: 2nd decile
Grades in Clerkship: All pass (we only have pass/fail)
AOA: no
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: One-year research project investigating the glutamate theory of schizophrenia. I have an article which I've submitted for publication. Involved in several societies throughout medical school.
Red Flags: None.
Letters: On general medical letter, and one very strong letter from a Canadian psychiatrist. I was thinking about submitting a LOR from my research supervisor as my third which I'm pretty sure will be strong, or should I get another one from a clinician. What do you guys think?

Where I want to end up: Not really sure. I'd like to be in Florida, close to family, but I'll be applying broadly (~100 programs) to maximize my chances.

You'll have pretty good chances at U.Florida and Miami (probably more at the former than the latter), which are probably the most reputable programs in Florida. Honestly, if you just applied to those two, you'll probably match at one of them... but obviously you should apply broadly just to be safe. But you're a pretty decent candidate in a not-very-competitive field, so you shouldn't be shy about applying to stronger programs. Your scores might be a bit below average for my program (WashU in St. Louis), but our department is infatuated with glutamate research (especially the NMDA receptor theories in schizophrenia), so you should apply here too.

I'd get both the research letter and the clinical letter. For biologically-oriented academic programs with a research focus (i.e. both U.Florida and Miami), you might want to sent the research letter rather than the third clinical letter, unless it's a great letter from a psychiatrist. For community programs, it might be better to send the clinical letter.

 

[WalterDonnie]

Dated information, but I thought New Mexico was fairly solid many years ago. Colder than AZ and NV, but still fairly warm -- it seemed like a better program than the AZ/NV programs, too. For Texas, how about Galveston, Austin and Scott & White? Per other SDN posters, I guess the Houston programs might be very work heavy/less desired by applicants. Austin has reinvented itself like 3 times in my time in the psychiatry world, but it supposedly is a decent program, although maybe more work intensive? I think the notion that Austin is a lot better than the rest of Texas is overblown, but it might get stronger people because it's a desirable location.

Hey Dr. Bagel thank you for your suggestions! Yes, NM has been on my radar so I will definitely add that one to the list. Ok, I'll check out the Texas programs you mentioned as well.

I'm not gonna be much help here, because I'm at the same stage of the game as you, but I thought I'd pass this link along in case you haven't seen it: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...riendly-psychiatry-residency-programs.955375/ I wouldn't limit yourself to these programs though.

Also, baller scores man! Stat wise you stand head and heels above the competition and if you interview as well as you say, you deserve a shot ANYWHERE (although the game gives you zero chance at some places). I say apply to any reaches you have in mind. Who knows, maybe they'll give you a sniff. Apply the rules of 1/3 and let her ride! Good luck!

Thanks Dharma, good luck to you too!!

 

[EaglesAllDay]

If anybody can help, I'd be grateful

U.S. IMG, Step 1: 210 Step 2: 212 CS: Pass (all first attempt), YOG 2011, 3 LOR's from psychiatrists in the US, 1 Psych Lor from a Neurologist, 3 months externship in psych and 6 weeks in Neuro

 

[Dharma]

If anybody can help, I'd be grateful

U.S. IMG, Step 1: 210 Step 2: 212 CS: Pass (all first attempt), YOG 2011, 3 LOR's from psychiatrists in the US, 1 Psych Lor from a Neurologist, 3 months externship in psych and 6 weeks in Neuro

What did you do after you graduated med school, besides the externships? And why? I'm guessing that's a biggie. From what I know you will have to apply far and wide. Step 3 would be a plus, and for some programs a necessity. But with the cycle opening in a few days, that may be momentarily moot. You plan on taking it anytime soon?

 

[EaglesAllDay]

What did you do after you graduated med school, besides the externships? And why? I'm guessing that's a biggie. From what I know you will have to apply far and wide. Step 3 would be a plus, and for some programs a necessity. But with the cycle opening in a few days, that may be momentarily moot. You plan on taking it anytime soon?

Well long story short it took me awhile for my step 1, was struggling hard on it, and after exhausted every review book, qbank, etc i took it....that was in 2012, 2013 I gave my CS around Feb, and then when I was about to take CK June I had a complete herniation of two discs in my spinal cord....tried a month of physio, didnt help so had to get a microdiscectomy done...so basically my 2013 app was messed up cause i didn't have ck....finally took ck last year and then applied for the 2014 match...only had four interviews (2 through contacts)...so i spent this last year getting USCE....I'm currently studying for step 3, want to take it before interviews start....but yeah im applying far and wide....what do you think my chances are for community programs??? thanks

 

[lockian]

So, um, when it comes to "applying broadly" for a US MD who is a just above average applicant, is 46 programs overkill? That's how many I have on my list right now, and I can't seem to narrow it down anymore.

Also, in psychiatry world "work intensive" means what? How many hours a week would that be? 60-70? 80?

 

[notdeadyet]

For a very average middle-of-the-road allopathic grad with no red flags and average scores, you will get interview invites to most programs that aren't top tier. Top tier programs are always a crapshoot.

Applying broadly means a healthy number with a healthy variety of competitiveness. If you apply to 1/3rd top tier dream schools, 1/3rd solid academic programs, and 1/3rd community or less competitive slots, 20 is likely plenty. You'd get invites to at least 12 or so and that's too many interviews to do without unnecessary hardship.

The hard work thing is variable. Id consider a reasonable hard working program 50-55 hours intern year (on service), then 45-50 for pgy-2 and 3 and 40-45 for pgy-4.

 

[lockian]

So it seems that the programs on my list that are more competitive are:

UCSD
Northwestern
WashU
Mayo (the institution is overall well regarded but I don't know about the program...)
Brigham & Women's/HMS -- only applying because I have a connection; I doubt they'd even look at me if I didn't.

Am I right that these are indeed more on the competitive side?