Oh, California...

[Blade28]

There were 3 asian residents out of 28 in the entire residency program.

Here there's one out of about 60. Me.

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[Messerschmitts]

I glanced at your MDApplicants profile after Goober mentioned it. I saw you listed Tzu Chi Buddhist Community Service/Volunteer club. Are you Taiwanese? I know Tzu Chi is a big organization in Taiwan (they run the hospital in the town I lived in).

I'm uh...Chinese from Taiwan, yeah... I'm one of those. Waishengren pride.

 

[Messerschmitts]

I applied to a competitive specialty and ended up in the midwest again.
There were 3 asian residents out of 28 in the entire residency program. One time we all happen to be at the same place one time on call. The fellow who was on call as junior attending comes in and looks around and makes a face, "I just walked into Chinatown." Can you imagine if there were 3 black residents and he came in and said, "I just walked into the ghetto."

Wow, that's really offensive! I would've said something.

BTW I read your student profile on MDapplicants- wow I can't believe you didn't get into a Cali school with your grades and MCAT scores from UCB!

Aww, shucks thanks for the compliment! Ha ha, and let that be a lesson to others to have a lot of clinically oriented extracurriculars before applying. Plus I kinda sucked at interviewing.

 

[medstudentx]

I applied to a competitive specialty and ended up in the midwest again.
There were 3 asian residents out of 28 in the entire residency program. One time we all happen to be at the same place one time on call. The fellow who was on call as junior attending comes in and looks around and makes a face, "I just walked into Chinatown." Can you imagine if there were 3 black residents and he came in and said, "I just walked into the ghetto."

Wow, that's really offensive! I would've said something.

Sorry but I found that comment kind of hilarious when I first read it (I pictured Dr Cox from Scrubs saying it....you know the guy who calls everyone newbie or cupcake).

I'm Asian but for better or for worse I've become fairly desensitized to subtle racial remarks like that.... I notice them but don't really care.

Besides, I wouldn't want to get on the bad side of a superior of mine..... especially if I have to spend my whole residency with him (assuming the attending who made the remake was male).

I think in medicine, its important to distinguish the small, minor stuff from the major stuff. To me, a one-time remark like that is minor.

But if it were persistent and chronic from members of the hospital staff, that would be a different story....

 

[78222]

I'm uh...Chinese from Taiwan, yeah... I'm one of those. Waishengren pride.

Like mainland Chinese from Taiwan? I didn't know that was possible.

Incidentally, I am in LA right now waiting to board a flight for Taipei.

 

[Messerschmitts]

Like mainland Chinese from Taiwan? I didn't know that was possible.

Incidentally, I am in LA right now waiting to board a flight for Taipei.

Not exactly directly from Mainland China. I'm the decedent of the 2 million mainland refugees who fled to Taiwan after the Chinese Civil War in 1949. We speak Mandarin, vote Kuomingtang, and believe in reunification. President Ma Ying-Jeou is one of us, so we're back in power.

 

[78222]

Not exactly directly from Mainland China. I'm the decedent of the 2 million mainland refugees who fled to Taiwan after the Chinese Civil War in 1949. We speak Mandarin, vote Kuomingtang, and believe in reunification. President Ma Ying-Jeou is one of us, so we're back in power.

Ah, Taipei Taiwanese. Well, I can't say I agree but my wife and her family are in the same boat (although they are Hakka) so I guess I can't hold it against you.

 

[Messerschmitts]

Ah, Taipei Taiwanese. Well, I can't say I agree but my wife and her family are in the same boat (although they are Hakka) so I guess I can't hold it against you.

Ha ha, well I prefer "Chinese from Taiwan", but sure. The "Taiwanese" (descendants of Chinese fishermen from Fujian Province who emigrated to Taiwan in the 1800's) call us "Waishengren", which roughly translates to "Outlanders". The Hakka usually vote with the Waishengren.

 

[uname943]

.

 

[sendwich]

And it sucks to think, "but maybe I shouldn't go into this interesting field because I won't be able to get into a program in Socal".

*sigh* it's a sad sad reality for us californians

 

[meister]

I hear you guys, I'm heading to Virginia from California in two weeks for school. I don't know anyone for 2500 miles.

 

[DOitright]

Let me start this by saying I have no authority to speak on the difficulty/possibility of getting a resident spot in CA as a midwest grad. However, I have had great success is setting up visiting rotations. I am also from CA and have high hopes of heading back west (currently in Iowa) for residency (general surgery v. neurosurg.) for similar reasons as already posted (family, climate, etc.). I knew my only chance was if I did a few "audition" rotations. I have had no difficulties setting up rotations. Well, other than paying the $150 application fee each time...ouch! So far, I have set up:

UCSF - neurosurgery
UCD - trauma
UCSF Fresno - trauma
UCSF East Bay - Gen. surg.

And I am also a DO student. Whether or not that means anything is a whole different discussion that I don't have the energy to dive in to at the moment.

I can only assume they are willing to look at candidates outside of CA if they are willing to allow visiting rotations. My assumption could very easily change here within the next couple of months, however.

So if you really want to head back to CA, keep your head up...and as they say in the midwest, get 'er done!

Good luck & cheers!

J

 

[Messerschmitts]

I hear you guys, I'm heading to Virginia from California in two weeks for school. I don't know anyone for 2500 miles.

Welcome to the club! I didn't know anyone within 2500 miles either! A lot of people have family in Chicago or New York at least, but not me. All my family members are either in LA or the Bay Area, so I really knew no one! However, you'll make new friends, make new contacts, and the experience will teach you to bemore independent than ever before. If you **** up out here, mommy can't pick you up from the mall or bail you out of jail. I guess I'm sorta glad that it turned me from an Asian momma's boy into a self-reliant person.

 

[inkare]

Hey Guys, I will be starting medical school this fall and since I'm from CA and my family resides there, I would like to make it back there. I can use some of your advice.

My question is this. Do residency programs look at which state you had studied when accepting into their program ?? It doesn't really make sense, if two applicants have similar board scores and grades in medical school, one come from lets say NYU and the other from UCI, would CA residency programs lean towards the UCI student ? If so why ?? I was quite puzzled when I read that a residency director told one of the people here that they prefer CA residents. That is bizarre. I always thought the reason that CA residency match CA students is that more CA students want to stay in CA than people from OSS want to come back.

I didn't get admissions from any CA school, I did get waitlisted at UCSF and UCI. I'm currently set on going to NYU. UCSF is my top choice and I've been in correspondance with them regarding my interest in their program. It doesn't look like its going to happen though. But as for UCI, I haven't shown interest that much in their program after I got into NYU with a decent amount of scholarship (15k/year). Also, NYU has great research in imaging which is my area and I guess it was a more reputable program. My question is, would it be totally to my advantage if I go to UCI over NYU for med school, considering that I'm interested in Radiology and I want to make it back to CA. I'm asking this because if this is the case, I can send a letter intent saying that I will withdraw from my current school to attend their program. That might help me come off the waitlist.

 

[darkelven29]

go to NYU!!! Don't worry about the CA thing, you should go to a school that fits you and you love. You don't know what's going to happen in med school, for all you know, you may rock Step 1s, do amazing radiology research (thus coming back to CA won't be a problem), find the love of your life in NYC, family move to East Coast with you...... etc.

I just think it's silly to go to UCI just so you can stay in CA....broaden your horizons!

And I am an Asian fob who's gonna love med school in FL!

 

[inkare]

go to NYU!!! Don't worry about the CA thing, you should go to a school that fits you and you love. You don't know what's going to happen in med school, for all you know, you may rock Step 1s, do amazing radiology research (thus coming back to CA won't be a problem), find the love of your life in NYC, family move to East Coast with you...... etc.

I just think it's silly to go to UCI just so you can stay in CA....broaden your horizons!

And I am an Asian fob who's gonna love med school in FL!

Well to clarify, I've been living in NYC for the last two years. So I have broadened my horizon. I'd probably be happier living in SoCal, since my family and friends are there. Don't get me wrong, NYC is awesome and I loved living here, but I have experienced it and its nothing new for me anymore.

The reason I've been leaning towards NYU rather than UCI is because I thought NYU would be better for me career wise. They are a more reputable school and they have a lot of good imaging research. But if UCI will open more doors for obtaining a CA radiology residency, then by all means, I will try my best to get into UCI by sending them letter and updates.

Ok, basic question: 2 med students, one from UCI, and one from NYU apply to UCLA radiology, same board scores and grades and both rank UCLA as top choice. Is the UCI student at an advantage because of studying in CA for med school ???

 

[uname943]

.

 

[inkare]

Have you thought about asking NYU if they will let you defer a year while you do something? Maybe you can do research and apply a second time.

Life out here is hard. You might be used to living away from parents for 2 years. But med school is even busier. You'll need them even more. It costs my parents loads of money just to fly out, call around, buy stuff for me.. etc. If you can live at home during med school, you will save LOTS of money.

Applying again (make sure you apply to DO schools) might be worth it.

Apply again? having an acceptance from NYU ?? Try to go to a DO instead of NYU. You can't possibly be serious.

At this point, I'm leaning on NYU, even if I had the UCI acceptance in hand. My dillema isn't the next 4 years, its coming back for residency. I'm considering radiology. NYU matches awesome for radiology, they had a person match at UCSF, 2 at columbia, 1 at cornell, 1 at sinai. But so does UCI, they had 2 people match at UCLA, and 1 at UCSF and 2 UCI.

UCLA radiology is my goal, and seeing that 2 UCI students matched there, is amazing and makes me think twice.

I've been living in nyc for 2 years now, and Its awesome, there are tons more to do than LA. People are better also. Its just my family connection there (and the weather !!!)

My question is this, if UCI would improve my chances of getting radiology residency in CA, then I would write to them a proper letter of intent try to get in there (not that its guaranteed, its probably very slim chances at this point). I know in the past years, they have accepted a few people right before school starts. But if coming out of NYU, with the same performance on the boards/clinical years, would put me in an even playing field for residency in CA, then I would go to NYU.

 

[Ashers]

Apply again? having an acceptance from NYU ?? Try to go to a DO instead of NYU. You can't possibly be serious.

At this point, I'm leaning on NYU, even if I had the UCI acceptance in hand. My dillema isn't the next 4 years, its coming back for residency. I'm considering radiology. NYU matches awesome for radiology, they had a person match at UCSF, 2 at columbia, 1 at cornell, 1 at sinai. But so does UCI, they had 2 people match at UCLA, and 1 at UCSF and 2 UCI.

UCLA radiology is my goal, and seeing that 2 UCI students matched there, is amazing and makes me think twice.

I've been living in nyc for 2 years now, and Its awesome, there are tons more to do than LA. People are better also. Its just my family connection there (and the weather !!!)

My question is this, if UCI would improve my chances of getting radiology residency in CA, then I would write to them a proper letter of intent try to get in there (not that its guaranteed, its probably very slim chances at this point). I know in the past years, they have accepted a few people right before school starts. But if coming out of NYU, with the same performance on the boards/clinical years, would put me in an even playing field for residency in CA, then I would go to NYU.

Dude, I'd go to NYU (unless you suddenly get off the waitlist of UCSF or UCI). I've been told multiple things re: getting back to CA. My advisor (heavy East Coast/Midwest) told me they won't take anyone not from CA ("from" read "trained"). I then contacted someone on the clinical faculty at UCI. He said, for his program, they regularly take >50% from outside CA. They want the best person for their program. Now, I've also been told, from other people, that it's good to get "known" in the West Coast (if you went to school elsewhere and are doing a competitive residency), by doing rotations there and getting West Coast letters. Having family ties probably doesn't hurt either. I'm banking on college and growing up out West helping.

 

[inkare]

Dude, I'd go to NYU (unless you suddenly get off the waitlist of UCSF or UCI).

So you're saying UCI is better for me than NYU ? I don't get your reply.

 

[Ashers]

So you're saying UCI is better for me than NYU ? I don't get your reply.

No, then go wherever you want. Your initial post sounded like you wanted to go to one of the UC schools more than NYU.

 

[uname943]

.

 

[ninjapenguin]

How many people from NYU match at UCLA radiology?

Radiology at UCLA is more of a self-selection factor. Just take a look at a match list from any reputable East coast medical school, and you will easily see 10+ people on each one going to California for residency in a number of different fields. I counted 14 from NYU's 2007 match list.

In the end, if you've got the excellent credentials and impress people on away rotations, you'll have no problem matching anywhere.

 

[Blade28]

UCSF Fresno - trauma
UCSF East Bay - Gen. surg.

Great choices.

 

[maceo]

surely there has to be room for you at king drew

 

[osli]

Reading this thread makes me extremely grateful that I happened to be born in a small town of a backwoods state where no one wants to go for residency or practice. Cost of living is low, incomes are higher, demand is great, and my family all happens to be there.

I know there are plenty of people who wouldn't work in any number of towns for any amount of money... I count myself fortunate to be raised in one so that I really don't know any better. I've been to NYC and Cali, Florida and Hawaii, and most of the big midwest, north, and northeast cities. So lucky that I have the "rural gene" and care nothing for the hustle and bustle of big city life, or for the crazy Cali politics.

For you guys "unfortunate" enough to have the Cali gene, you have my sympathies!

 

[Messerschmitts]

Reading this thread makes me extremely grateful that I happened to be born in a small town of a backwoods state where no one wants to go for residency or practice. Cost of living is low, incomes are higher, demand is great, and my family all happens to be there.

I know there are plenty of people who wouldn't work in any number of towns for any amount of money... I count myself fortunate to be raised in one so that I really don't know any better. I've been to NYC and Cali, Florida and Hawaii, and most of the big midwest, north, and northeast cities. So lucky that I have the "rural gene" and care nothing for the hustle and bustle of big city life, or for the crazy Cali politics.

For you guys "unfortunate" enough to have the Cali gene, you have my sympathies!

Ha ha now you got me curious. What backwoods state is this? Nebraska?

 

[osli]

lol, no Nebraska is just down right high society!

 

[babel]

Hey all - I'm in a similar situation to the OP (CA resident, just finished up my 1st yr at an east coast school, and dead set on heading back to Cali for residency), and I just wanted to mention something that I found reassuring. I used FREIDA to search for programs that I was interested in, and then followed the website links they had listed. If you look for a link to something like "Residents" on any program's website, you can see a list of current residents, usually including where they went to medical school and undergrad. I found it very reassuring that 25-50%+ of the residents at all of the programs that I looked at (EM) were OOS. I don't think program directors care too much about your state of residence. And it makes sense, because the rules are different from med school applications (no waitlists, no last minute changes) - I think they probably just go for the applicants they want the most (just as we are advised to do in creating our ranklists) - because even if they don't get John X. because he ranked all the NY programs higher because he decided he wanted to be close to his family on the East Coast, they'll just get the next person on their list. Anyway, just food for thought.

 

[OnlyLiveOnce]

Also, right now I feel like living in a large house with a big income still kind of sucks if you live in a geographic location that you're not satisfied with. ... At the current point in my life I feel like I would endure just about any paycut to enjoy that.

My feelings exactly. I'm not about how big my house is or how nice my car is. I'm about how nice my surroundings are, what there is to do where I live, and how close my family is.

Edit: My avatar kind of attests to that.

 

[Slide]

My feelings exactly. I'm not about how big my house is or how nice my car is. I'm about how nice my surroundings are, what there is to do where I live, and how close my family is.

Edit: My avatar kind of attests to that.

This is my rationale of getting out of the south ASAP.

 

[fakin' the funk]

My question is this. Do residency programs look at which state you had studied when accepting into their program ?? It doesn't really make sense, if two applicants have similar board scores and grades in medical school, one come from lets say NYU and the other from UCI, would CA residency programs lean towards the UCI student ? If so why ?? I was quite puzzled when I read that a residency director told one of the people here that they prefer CA residents. That is bizarre.

This is the first time I've ever heard of this. Your reasoning is exactly what I've heard - it has more to do with your individual qualifications as a residency applicant AND your desire to move to that area, than state of residence.

If I was you, I would scratch and claw at the CA programs but NYU ain't no slouch.

 

[OnlyLiveOnce]

This is the first time I've ever heard of this. Your reasoning is exactly what I've heard - it has more to do with your individual qualifications as a residency applicant AND your desire to move to that area, than state of residence.

Thank you. This whole notion of "it has a lot to do with where you're from" is really pissing me off because it makes this whole thing feel like a big caste system. Screw your individual qualifications and aspirations, what I wanna know is, where did your parents decide to settle down and raise you? Oh, not in this state? Then you don't deserve residency here!

I can understand that bias when it comes to med school because of the whole state taxpayer issue. But I see residency as more of a job rather than school, and it's absurd for an employer to turn down a great potential hire just because they're not from around here. How stupid.

And finally, say we don't succeed in getting residency in the state we want. Why would that stop us from moving there later on to practice? My cousin did radiology residency somewhere up north and then moved down to Florida to practice after a few years. The OP is making it sound like there is a bunch of red tape that makes sure you can never uproot yourself from where you did residency. He better just be acting paranoid; that notion better not have truth to it.

 

[Messerschmitts]

Thank you. This whole notion of "it has a lot to do with where you're from" is really pissing me off because it makes this whole thing feel like a big caste system. Screw your individual qualifications and aspirations, what I wanna know is, where did your parents decide to settle down and raise you? Oh, not in this state? Then you don't deserve residency here!

What about people like me who were raised in California!? We were booted out for med school! It wasn't my choice! It's not fair that all of the sudden, just because I was exiled to attend med school somewhere else, I'm any less Californian than some lucky punk east coaster who got into UCLA med school. If anything that kid should go home!

The OP is making it sound like there is a bunch of red tape that makes sure you can never uproot yourself from where you did residency. He better just be acting paranoid; that notion better not have truth to it.

You know what? I pray to the Lords of Kobol I am just being paranoid. I hope you're right. However, it is very concerning to me that statistically speaking, nearly all medical residents "set up shop" within 100 miles of where they do their residency. Maybe there is no "official" red tape, but maybe there are other situations that make it sticky to get back.

For example: if you did your residency in the Midwest or east coast, maybe you don't have any west coast connexions, and would have a hard time getting a good position in a Californian hospital without the kind of word-of-mouth or recommendations a west-coast resident would have access to.

Or, maybe a Midwestern hospital made you an offer you "couldn't refuse". Maybe it was so much more money than any west coast offers that you felt like you "had" to take it, especially because you owe 200+K. Sure, it was technically your "choice", but choice is such a tricky idea, isn't it? I can easily think of a scenario in which I was "compelled" to take that Ohio job offer, but would be miserable and privately indignant for having to take it. It was technically my choice...but was it really?

Thirdly it's possible you might get a significant other in your new state. If it gets serious, it could tie you down permanently. Sure you'd hopefully love that person and be very happy to be with them, but maybe late on a cold snowy winter night you'd be wondering if your life would've been different had you just stayed in California and wasn't forced to leave. Since you stayed with her, obviously you chose love over California, and that's great. But late at night, in the privacy of your own thoughts, perhaps there is that tinge of clandestine resentment.

If you are one of those medical student or residents with kids, then I can tell you that it's very likely you'll just settle down wherever you do your residency. Once the kids get settled in their school, parents are generally loathe to uproot them and separate them from their friends and the surroundings to which they have become accustomed to. I know a professor at the University of Iowa who said, "I was only supposed to come teach for a year or two, but my kids started school, and before I knew it I'd been here for 14 years." Or maybe your spouse gets a local job, and he/she starts to climb the ladder there, and it becomes impractical/unfair for them to quit that job when you're done with residency.

I'm not sure what the deal is with licensure to practise. In order to practise medicine in California, do we need to pass a separate exam? Perhaps it is significantly more difficult than other state's licensure processes. I know the California bar is notoriously difficult and even law professors fail it sometimes. But I'm uninformed, hopefully one of you can educate me on this issue.

Lastly, residency is at the very minimum 3 years for specialties like family medicine, and up to 9 years for things like neurosurgery. So added with 4 years of medical school, that's a minimum of 7, and a maximum of maybe 13 years you'd have to spend in exile from California. That is a long time. Will you even remember California? Will California remember you? I have an upperclassman friend originally from Seattle. He really wants to do surgery, but didn't match back into Seattle or any west coast schools, so he's going to Pittsburgh. Great programme, but he'll probably be gone for a total of 11 years (4 years med school, 5 years surgery, 2 years fellowship?). He's married and his wife is going with him. They're going to buy a house there, and they've got to send their kids to school. Do you really think after 7 years of surgical training in Pittsburgh, after 7 years of living in the house they bought, 7 years of his wife working in Pittsburgh and their kids going to school there, after his attending (who likes him so much) offers him a position in his practise group, that they are ever going back to the west coast after he finishes residency? Do you honestly see that happening? I don't. They're not going anywhere. It's done.

It's not that people can't , or that there is "red tape." It's just that after you've bought a house, raised a family and sprouted roots in a place for so long, it becomes very difficult, very "impractical" to leave. You're stuck. My suspicion is that 90% of the time, these Californian exiles just "give up". It's too much trouble. Too much upheaval to have to lay on yourself and your family, who now have strong ties to the Midwest (or wherever). It's just too inconvenient. Too much of a hassle. And so you sit back in your armchair in your big cheap Midwest house and think "Well this isn't so bad...whatever. I guess this is my life now. I have to be realistic. California's just a pipe dream." To put it quite simply, it just "didn't work out". That is my greatest fear. That is why I have such a bad feeling that, if I don't get to go home to California for residency, I am never coming back.

Now you might say, "well Victor (that's my name), your scenarios are terrifying and reasonable, but you don't have kids. Hell you don't even have a girlfriend right now!" True, but I'm already 25 years old. Do I really expect to wait until I'm 32 years old out of residency to move back to California to begin dating? No, chances are good (I'm not bragging, I'm just saying) that sometime in the next 6-7 years of my life I will probably meet someone I connect with out here, and I'm not going to have the will-power to resist pursuing it, because I will be lonely and in my late twenties/early thirties. I'm going to go for it. It's not practical to expect me to remain celibate for the next 7 years just because I want to avoid personal entanglements that could get in the way of me going back to California. So I won't (remain celibate), entanglements will occur, and the rest is history. Sure, this hypothetical local girlfriend might be willing to pull up her life for me after residency and leave with me. But she's probably going to be tied down to her own job, and her own family here. Am I really cruel enough to rip her so far from her mom with Parkinson's?

Maybe I am paranoid, but I can come up with dozens of scenarios that would tie you down on the state where you do your residency at. Many of them are life events that are not necessarily related to medicine and out of your control.

 

[sendwich]

What about people like me who were raised in California!? We were booted out for med school! It wasn't my choice! It's not fair that all of the sudden, just because I was exiled to attend med school somewhere else, I'm any less Californian than some lucky punk east coaster who got into UCLA med school. If anything that kid should go home!



You know what? I pray to the Lords of Kobol I am just being paranoid. I hope you're right. However, it is very concerning to me that statistically speaking, nearly all medical residents "set up shop" within 100 miles of where they do their residency. Maybe there is no "official" red tape, but maybe there are other situations that make it sticky to get back.

For example: if you did your residency in the Midwest or east coast, maybe you don't have any west coast connexions, and would have a hard time getting a good position in a Californian hospital without the kind of word-of-mouth or recommendations a west-coast resident would have access to.

Or, maybe a Midwestern hospital made you an offer you "couldn't refuse". Maybe it was so much more money than any west coast offers that you felt like you "had" to take it, especially because you owe 200+K. Sure, it was technically your "choice", but choice is such a tricky idea, isn't it? I can easily think of a scenario in which I was "compelled" to take that Ohio job offer, but would be miserable and privately indignant for having to take it. It was technically my choice...but was it really?

Thirdly it's possible you might get a significant other in your new state. If it gets serious, it could tie you down permanently. Sure you'd hopefully love that person and be very happy to be with them, but maybe late on a cold snowy winter night you'd be wondering if your life would've been different had you just stayed in California and wasn't forced to leave. Since you stayed with her, obviously you chose love over California, and that's great. But late at night, in the privacy of your own thoughts, perhaps there is that tinge of clandestine resentment.

If you are one of those medical student or residents with kids, then I can tell you that it's very likely you'll just settle down wherever you do your residency. Once the kids get settled in their school, parents are generally loathe to uproot them and separate them from their friends and the surroundings to which they have become accustomed to. I know a professor at the University of Iowa who said, "I was only supposed to come teach for a year or two, but my kids started school, and before I knew it I'd been here for 14 years." Or maybe your spouse gets a local job, and he/she starts to climb the ladder there, and it becomes impractical/unfair for them to quit that job when you're done with residency.

I'm not sure what the deal is with licensure to practise. In order to practise medicine in California, do we need to pass a separate exam? Perhaps it is significantly more difficult than other state's licensure processes. I know the California bar is notoriously difficult and even law professors fail it sometimes. But I'm uninformed, hopefully one of you can educate me on this issue.

Lastly, residency is at the very minimum 3 years for specialties like family medicine, and up to 9 years for things like neurosurgery. So added with 4 years of medical school, that's a minimum of 7, and a maximum of maybe 13 years you'd have to spend in exile from California. That is a long time. Will you even remember California? Will California remember you? I have an upperclassman friend originally from Seattle. He really wants to do surgery, but didn't match back into Seattle or any west coast schools, so he's going to Pittsburgh. Great programme, but he'll probably be gone for a total of 11 years (4 years med school, 5 years surgery, 2 years fellowship?). He's married and his wife is going with him. They're going to buy a house there, and they've got to send their kids to school. Do you really think after 7 years of surgical training in Pittsburgh, after 7 years of living in the house they bought, 7 years of his wife working in Pittsburgh and their kids going to school there, after his attending (who likes him so much) offers him a position in his practise group, that they are ever going back to the west coast after he finishes residency? Do you honestly see that happening? I don't. They're not going anywhere. It's done.

It's not that people can't , or that there is "red tape." It's just that after you've bought a house, raised a family and sprouted roots in a place for so long, it becomes very difficult, very "impractical" to leave. You're stuck. My suspicion is that 90% of the time, these Californian exiles just "give up". It's too much trouble. Too much upheaval to have to lay on yourself and your family, who now have strong ties to the Midwest (or wherever). It's just too inconvenient. Too much of a hassle. And so you sit back in your armchair in your big cheap Midwest house and think "Well this isn't so bad...whatever. I guess this is my life now. I have to be realistic. California's just a pipe dream." To put it quite simply, it just "didn't work out". That is my greatest fear. That is why I have such a bad feeling that, if I don't get to go home to California for residency, I am never coming back.

Now you might say, "well Victor (that's my name), your scenarios are terrifying and reasonable, but you don't have kids. Hell you don't even have a girlfriend right now!" True, but I'm already 25 years old. Do I really expect to wait until I'm 32 years old out of residency to move back to California to begin dating? No, chances are good (I'm not bragging, I'm just saying) that sometime in the next 6-7 years of my life I will probably meet someone I connect with out here, and I'm not going to have the will-power to resist pursuing it, because I will be lonely and in my late twenties/early thirties. I'm going to go for it. It's not practical to expect me to remain celibate for the next 7 years just because I want to avoid personal entanglements that could get in the way of me going back to California. So I won't (remain celibate), entanglements will occur, and the rest is history. Sure, this hypothetical local girlfriend might be willing to pull up her life for me after residency and leave with me. But she's probably going to be tied down to her own job, and her own family here. Am I really cruel enough to rip her so far from her mom with Parkinson's?

Maybe I am paranoid, but I can come up with dozens of scenarios that would tie you down on the state where you do your residency at. Many of them are life events that are not necessarily related to medicine and out of your control.

my fears exactly. for me, it's going thru ^ scenario or picking IM/peds to go back to cali. and even then, I'll have to work more harder than the regular Joe going into IM/peds b/c standards are higher in cali (or so I hear). I mean, I'm not dogging on students who do IM/peds but so far, it's not my 1st choice but if it means I get to go back to cali by going into this field, the urge is simply Too Strong.

 

[inkare]

Great discussion here.

I still don't get it. I agree that when you do residency in a place, and establish roots, it becomes very impractical and hard to try to relocate. But my question is this: If I have same exact performance at similarly ranked school, one in CA, on OOS, when I apply to residency, why would the California applicant be at a better advantage. Is it only because of connection?

I do see your point that even for doing IM/peds in CA, you would have to do better than your average Joe, but that would be the case regardless whether your attended a school in CA or OOS. Same with other specialties. Am I missing something here ?

All I'm saying is that you would have to perform better for getting CA residencies in general, regardless of what school you went to, CA or non-CA.

 

[OnlyLiveOnce]

What about people like me who were raised in California!? We were booted out for med school! It wasn't my choice! It's not fair that all of the sudden, just because I was exiled to attend med school somewhere else, I'm any less Californian than some lucky punk east coaster who got into UCLA med school. If anything that kid should go home!



You know what? I pray to the Lords of Kobol I am just being paranoid. I hope you're right. However, it is very concerning to me that statistically speaking, nearly all medical residents "set up shop" within 100 miles of where they do their residency. Maybe there is no "official" red tape, but maybe there are other situations that make it sticky to get back.

For example: if you did your residency in the Midwest or east coast, maybe you don't have any west coast connexions, and would have a hard time getting a good position in a Californian hospital without the kind of word-of-mouth or recommendations a west-coast resident would have access to.

Or, maybe a Midwestern hospital made you an offer you "couldn't refuse". Maybe it was so much more money than any west coast offers that you felt like you "had" to take it, especially because you owe 200+K. Sure, it was technically your "choice", but choice is such a tricky idea, isn't it? I can easily think of a scenario in which I was "compelled" to take that Ohio job offer, but would be miserable and privately indignant for having to take it. It was technically my choice...but was it really?

Thirdly it's possible you might get a significant other in your new state. If it gets serious, it could tie you down permanently. Sure you'd hopefully love that person and be very happy to be with them, but maybe late on a cold snowy winter night you'd be wondering if your life would've been different had you just stayed in California and wasn't forced to leave. Since you stayed with her, obviously you chose love over California, and that's great. But late at night, in the privacy of your own thoughts, perhaps there is that tinge of clandestine resentment.

If you are one of those medical student or residents with kids, then I can tell you that it's very likely you'll just settle down wherever you do your residency. Once the kids get settled in their school, parents are generally loathe to uproot them and separate them from their friends and the surroundings to which they have become accustomed to. I know a professor at the University of Iowa who said, "I was only supposed to come teach for a year or two, but my kids started school, and before I knew it I'd been here for 14 years." Or maybe your spouse gets a local job, and he/she starts to climb the ladder there, and it becomes impractical/unfair for them to quit that job when you're done with residency.

I'm not sure what the deal is with licensure to practise. In order to practise medicine in California, do we need to pass a separate exam? Perhaps it is significantly more difficult than other state's licensure processes. I know the California bar is notoriously difficult and even law professors fail it sometimes. But I'm uninformed, hopefully one of you can educate me on this issue.

Lastly, residency is at the very minimum 3 years for specialties like family medicine, and up to 9 years for things like neurosurgery. So added with 4 years of medical school, that's a minimum of 7, and a maximum of maybe 13 years you'd have to spend in exile from California. That is a long time. Will you even remember California? Will California remember you? I have an upperclassman friend originally from Seattle. He really wants to do surgery, but didn't match back into Seattle or any west coast schools, so he's going to Pittsburgh. Great programme, but he'll probably be gone for a total of 11 years (4 years med school, 5 years surgery, 2 years fellowship?). He's married and his wife is going with him. They're going to buy a house there, and they've got to send their kids to school. Do you really think after 7 years of surgical training in Pittsburgh, after 7 years of living in the house they bought, 7 years of his wife working in Pittsburgh and their kids going to school there, after his attending (who likes him so much) offers him a position in his practise group, that they are ever going back to the west coast after he finishes residency? Do you honestly see that happening? I don't. They're not going anywhere. It's done.

It's not that people can't , or that there is "red tape." It's just that after you've bought a house, raised a family and sprouted roots in a place for so long, it becomes very difficult, very "impractical" to leave. You're stuck. My suspicion is that 90% of the time, these Californian exiles just "give up". It's too much trouble. Too much upheaval to have to lay on yourself and your family, who now have strong ties to the Midwest (or wherever). It's just too inconvenient. Too much of a hassle. And so you sit back in your armchair in your big cheap Midwest house and think "Well this isn't so bad...whatever. I guess this is my life now. I have to be realistic. California's just a pipe dream." To put it quite simply, it just "didn't work out". That is my greatest fear. That is why I have such a bad feeling that, if I don't get to go home to California for residency, I am never coming back.

Now you might say, "well Victor (that's my name), your scenarios are terrifying and reasonable, but you don't have kids. Hell you don't even have a girlfriend right now!" True, but I'm already 25 years old. Do I really expect to wait until I'm 32 years old out of residency to move back to California to begin dating? No, chances are good (I'm not bragging, I'm just saying) that sometime in the next 6-7 years of my life I will probably meet someone I connect with out here, and I'm not going to have the will-power to resist pursuing it, because I will be lonely and in my late twenties/early thirties. I'm going to go for it. It's not practical to expect me to remain celibate for the next 7 years just because I want to avoid personal entanglements that could get in the way of me going back to California. So I won't (remain celibate), entanglements will occur, and the rest is history. Sure, this hypothetical local girlfriend might be willing to pull up her life for me after residency and leave with me. But she's probably going to be tied down to her own job, and her own family here. Am I really cruel enough to rip her so far from her mom with Parkinson's?

Maybe I am paranoid, but I can come up with dozens of scenarios that would tie you down on the state where you do your residency at. Many of them are life events that are not necessarily related to medicine and out of your control.

Woah, I wasn't criticizing YOU for having the point of view you had. I was getting mad that the phenomenon you were talking about actually exists, and so I was saying I hope you're just someone who is paranoid. Because if you're indeed right and you're on to something, then that sucks for all of us. That was my point.

And as for your concern about uprooting your family: in the scenario you mentioned, the kids would be how old? Just barely starting school? Maybe gotten through a few grades of elementary? I wouldn't listen to my 6 year old kid complaining about how he's established himself in the community and can't possibly afford to relocate and start over at this point. I'd tell him to shutup and pack his bags, and that if he cooperates, I'll buy him an ice cream.

And tell your hypothetical wife that it's time to give her the lifestyle she's always wanted. If she wants to be near here family so bad, then tell them all to pack up, cause everyone's making a mass exodus to Cali.

 

[inkare]

Wow Messerschmitts, I just checked your MDapplicants profile, I'm SUPER puzzled. With your stats, how did you not get into CA. I went to Berkeley, and I know a 3.96 is no piece of cake, not even at the grade inflated schools. How are you not at UCSF !

 

[Messerschmitts]

Wow Messerschmitts, I just checked your MDapplicants profile, I'm SUPER puzzled. With your stats, how did you not get into CA. I went to Berkeley, and I know a 3.96 is no piece of cake, not even at the grade inflated schools. How are you not at UCSF !

Let me put it this way, the guy in my class who had a 42 on the MCAT had to get in UCSF through the waitlist. I don't even know what kind of demi-Gods get into UCSF through the front-door.

Numbers mean almost nothing once you get to the interview stage, you should know that by now. I'm a poor interviewer, I lacked a "good story" to my life, and didn't have good ECs.

 

[Messerschmitts]

Woah, I wasn't criticizing YOU for having the point of view you had. I was getting mad that the phenomenon you were talking about actually exists, and so I was saying I hope you're just someone who is paranoid. Because if you're indeed right and you're on to something, then that sucks for all of us. That was my point.

Hey I'm not mad! And like I said, I hope I'm dead wrong! And if I'm right, then you're right, it sucks for all of us!

I was chatting with my Asian attending today. He grew up in rural Indiana, but his dream was always to escape the Midwest. However, he said that he met his wife, and...well...y'know... The things we do for love, right?

On a different service, I was chatting with another attending who grew up in Cincinnati. She went to college, medical school, residency all in Cincinnati, and now she's faculty at our med school. So she's never even been out of the city.

"Yeah, people from Cincinnati kind of never leave. It's a bit of a black hole. Where are you from?"
"I'm from Los Angeles."
"Oh, so you escaped from the west coast?"
"Um...yes...escaped...or booted out kicking and screaming, depending on the point of view. "
"Oh, so you think about going back?"
"I think of nothing else, ma'am".

And as for your concern about uprooting your family: in the scenario you mentioned, the kids would be how old? Just barely starting school? Maybe gotten through a few grades of elementary? I wouldn't listen to my 6 year old kid complaining about how he's established himself in the community and can't possibly afford to relocate and start over at this point. I'd tell him to shutup and pack his bags, and that if he cooperates, I'll buy him an ice cream.

And tell your hypothetical wife that it's time to give her the lifestyle she's always wanted. If she wants to be near here family so bad, then tell them all to pack up, cause everyone's making a mass exodus to Cali.

Oh, you say that now...

 

[himerenee]

fellow californian here. I"m also doing everything I can to go back. How difficult is it for those of us going to medschool OOS to get back in? I've been to a few graduations already and it seems like most cali people going back are "resigning" to primary care areas (ie IM, peds, FM). Not to be discouraging, but a few friends going into non-PC have told me that unless you're the cream of the crop, don't think about going back cali b/c it's next to impossible. I dont want to have to decide between going back to cali for residency vs giving myself "PC and nothing else" mentality but it's definitely something to think about.

any thoughts?

i'm gonna be a 1st year med student so I shouldn't be worrying about this stuff yet...but i've lived in cali all my life, wished i was going to med school in cali, but am doing it out of state. is it really going to be that hard if I want to be some type of specialist for me to come back to cali? also, what do you need to prepare for applying for residency, aside from your scores and letter of recs? (is it anything like applying for medical school?)

 

[himerenee]

By the time I graduate medschool I would've been in a relationship for 12 years. My GF can't leave California (entertainment related career). I guess its gonna be a permanent long distance relationship .

same here...8 year relationship now...it'll be 12 years and if i can't come back to cali i'll cry...i also can't bear to leave my mom that long =\

 

[cgscribe]

Hey guys,

I haven't read every single post, but I think I get the gist. For people going away from CA for med school, I wouldn't worry too much about coming back eventually. Sure you'll have to do well in school and on boards, but that's true for everyone who wants a CA residency position, regardless of school. The fact that you're a native and probably want to stay here after residency is the factor residency programs look for. California residencies, especially the UC's, take it upon themselves to try and train physicians who will either work in their community or become PD's. Best advice is to attend the best school possible (for the person who was unsure of NYU, if you can see their match list, I'm sure they send numerous people back to CA), and enjoy the process, you might like it in your new locale.

 

[babel]

Here are some numbers for everyone to ponder (I culled the total # residency spots from the most recent NRMP report; and the #4th years I appoximated by dividing the total class size reported on US News & World Reports by 4).

Total # Allo residency spots in CA: 2,441

Appx # of 4th years graduating
from Allopathic CA med schools: 1,065

Appx # of 4th years graduating
from Allo + Osteo CA med schools: 1,407

So, even if ALL the CA 4th years match into CA residency positions, there's still about 50% (1,000+) of the spots left! So, I really don't think there's too much to worry about, if our goal is just to get back to Cali, especially if you are open to the less desirable places in CA, like the Central Valley or IE.

 

[bones11]

I think some of the posters on here could use an 'attitude adjustment', as my mother would say. If you haven't even left California yet but you're already saying the only thing you care about is coming back, that is setting yourself up for a miserable four years. I'm a die-hard surfer, used to surfing 300 days out of the year, and in a week from now I'll be moved to somewhere with nary a wave in sight, but I am still giddy with excitement.

Moving to a new city is an adventure. Anywhere in this country has interesting activities/people/food to discover. You just have to do a little work to sniff them out. Enjoy it.



Oh hell, who am I kidding? Cali Baby, I'm gonna miss you sooooo much! I promise I'll come back soon, OK. Real soon. Soon as I can. Like Thanksgiving.

 

[OnlyLiveOnce]

Moving to a new city is an adventure. Anywhere in this country has interesting activities/people/food to discover. You just have to do a little work to sniff them out. Enjoy it.

That is true. We ought to be thankful we're holding acceptances at all. I'm actually quite excited about being in the Midwest for four years, since I've lived in the South almost my entire life; I finally get to experience 4 seasons and see snow again. Besides, better to get accepted to a Midwest school in your first attempt, than to have to reapply just to get into a Cali school. The way I like to make it seem to myself is, I grew up in the South, and I'm headed for the West (hopefully), and right now I'm just sampling a bit of the Midwest in between so that I can experience all parts of the country. You gotta see things positively. Many people spend their whole lives in Cali and never realize what they had because they never had anything else to compare it to.

And the fact that we're not in our "ideal" location simply means we have more of a chip on our shoulders, so we'll probably be working harder than the ppl at UCLA/USC/etc., who are probably patting themselves on the back for getting to where they are (and they deserve it, you gotta hand it to them). A generalization, yes, but you get the point.

And if some Midwestern town doesn't have all the fun activities that Cali has to offer, that's a plus. I don't understand why you'd want to surround yourself with distractions during the four most pivotal years of your life. These next four years will decide what specialty you go into, which will dictate your lifestyle and how you put food on your family's table. The only kind of "activities" we should be inquiring about are medically-related. Are there a good number of hospitals in the area? Student-run clinics? Research opportunities? If so, then that's where I wanna be for four years. Hospital volunteering and research and long hours of studying is my equivalent of surfing and feeling the ocean breeze, at least for the next four years.

So let the people at UCLA and UCSD and wherever else go surfing during the time they're not studying. We're gonna be working our tails off trying to make it so that we can make it there in the long run. We shall have the last laugh.

And even if you don't get into Cali for residency, you can try to move there once you're an attending.

And even if you never get to live there again, life isn't scripted the way you want it, roll with the punches, and just visit Cali every break you get. A doctor who has a mind for business can make it so that he gets breaks often.

At the end of the day, the happiest people are the people who have the least amount of preferences. Rich people who live in beach-resort locations are often quite unhappy, because they still have something to check off on their "things I need to be happy" list. People in areas that don't seem to be that flashy are often the happiest, because they're humble and down to earth, just like their locations.

Thought I'd try to inject a bit of a optimism into this thread.

 

[78222]

I think some of the posters on here could use an 'attitude adjustment', as my mother would say. If you haven't even left California yet but you're already saying the only thing you care about is coming back, that is setting yourself up for a miserable four years. I'm a die-hard surfer, used to surfing 300 days out of the year, and in a week from now I'll be moved to somewhere with nary a wave in sight, but I am still giddy with excitement.

Moving to a new city is an adventure. Anywhere in this country has interesting activities/people/food to discover. You just have to do a little work to sniff them out. Enjoy it.



Oh hell, who am I kidding? Cali Baby, I'm gonna miss you sooooo much! I promise I'll come back soon, OK. Real soon. Soon as I can. Like Thanksgiving.

Just wait until the first big swell rolls in and you are stuck far, far, away. Wait until your friends are like "dude its been going off for like a week straight" and post pictures of perfect tubes on their blogs. Wait until your surfing has to revolve around the crappy medschool breaks and praying the there will be some swell for that 1 week of vacation you have between the boards and your surgery rotation. YOU'LL BE BACK HERE, CRYING ABOUT CALIFORNIA LIKE EVERYONE ELSE

 

[sendwich]

just Wait Until The First Big Swell Rolls In And You Are Stuck Far, Far, Away. Wait Until Your Friends Are Like "dude Its Been Going Off For Like A Week Straight" And Post Pictures Of Perfect Tubes On Their Blogs. Wait Until Your Surfing Has To Revolve Around The Crappy Medschool Breaks And Praying The There Will Be Some Swell For That 1 Week Of Vacation You Have Between The Boards And Your Surgery Rotation. You'll Be Back Here, Crying About California Like Everyone Else

+1!!

 

[bones11]

Just wait until the first big swell rolls in and you are stuck far, far, away. Wait until your friends are like "dude its been going off for like a week straight" and post pictures of perfect tubes on their blogs. Wait until your surfing has to revolve around the crappy medschool breaks and praying the there will be some swell for that 1 week of vacation you have between the boards and your surgery rotation. YOU'LL BE BACK HERE, CRYING ABOUT CALIFORNIA LIKE EVERYONE ELSE

Reading this post made me realize that I need to drastically change my career plans before it's too late.


Can anyone recommend a good dental hygienist school in San Diego?

 

[letitgo]

Okay, so this is a serious question: what makes California so wonderful? Why are people so in love with the place? The weather? The cities? The people?

I've lived in Philadelphia, DC, New York, Boston, and Chicago, and have a lot of ties to the East Coast. My entire family is in the Philly area. I personally loved the Midwest and believe wholeheartedly I will want to do my residency and spend the rest of my life in Chicago. Not sure why the Midwest gets such a bad rap...

That said, I got into med schools in several of those East Coast cities, a few Midwest cities (but, alas, not Chicago), but because I'm so damn curious what the fuss is about, I decided on UCSF. Do I think I'll come back east? My friends don't seem to think so, but if it's as incredible as you all say it is, well, who knows. I guess I'll find out in a month or so.

In any case, I think it's always a good idea to try out a new place. And I also think that if you want to get somewhere badly enough, you can make it happen.