OK, I've got a tough case for you!

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einnewt

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  1. Pre-Medical
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😀 I've been looking all over the place for some advice on my admissions chances considering the following:

I am 27 year old, white male, hoping to apply during the next cycle (2006-2007). I earned a BS in Biological Sciences from a lesser known state school with a 3.61 (AMCAS) GPA, then a post-bacc BS in Biochemistry from the University of Washington (3.00 GPA) averaging 15-18 credits all of upper-division (300, most 440 level courses) for one year which was interrupted in the middle (I had to withdraw) when I had kidney failure this last summer.

At my first school I did research in x-ray crystallography my senior year resulting in an award from the university faculty and 2 publications (on seperate projects on which I had extraordinary responsibility and independence). I volunteered for about a year and a half at the local emergency room, was a waiter, a house manager of an interfaith organization (though I am an atheist), peer tutor, organic chem peer leader, teaching assistant.

Currently, I am graduating in December from UW and my EC are as a Hospice volunteer, Mensa member (and soon to be community outreach), King County Democrats, and will soon shadow a family physician and try kayaking (so I look relatively well-rounded).

I took the MCAT after my senior year at WSU (12P, 10B, 12V, 34R), but my fiancee had gotten an opportunity in Seattle, so I decided to finish my BIOC degree there, which would have taken only 2 quarters (I am also a carpenter and helped my parents finish their retirement home during the autumn quarter) had it not been for my illness (which will, I imagine, be a part of my personal statement). This year, I simply did not have the money to seriously participate in the cylce so I post-poned it another year. So as you can see, though my motivation for medicine has not waned, I may have some explaining to do.

So why, you may ask, is my litany of stereotypical pre-med experiences unique? Because, in addition to all this, I was not able to attend college right after high-school. I came from a monumentally dysfuntional (drugs, alcohol, violence) home and I moved out on my own half-way through my senior year and could not afford to pay for school myself (my parents never planned to help and would not cosign for loans). Thoughout high school, I avoided drugs and alcohol myself, but afterwards, I started partying it up (alcohol and pot). Long story short, though my pot and alcohol use for the two years after high school was typical of, say, a normal (though unstudious) college freshman. I did, however, receive in those two years: 2 DUIs, 2MIPs, 2 possession of marijuana and paraphenalia charges. (Both DUIs were under the legal limit, but I was under 21 so you get DUI anyway). I was put on deferral for the last charges (DUI and marijuana at once, 1998) and they were dismissed recently after I completed outpatient treatment (in 1999) and submitted to over five years of probation (not parole, they were all misdemeanors) and random urinalyses (all clean, something like 15 total). It has been nearly 8 years since my last charge (after I stopped f*$#ing around, I saved up and started college). Also, I can get a letter from both my treatment counselor and probation officer attesting to how much they friggin' love me and how much I contributed to my group/how successful my recovery was/how much potential I have.

In light of all this (and I apoligize for those who have slogged through this) I would like intelligent opinions on several things:

1) The obvious: are my charges simply too much? I know those on this message board who have overcome DUIs, disorderly conducts, cheating, etc., but as is obvious mine are substantial and involve a drug (the use of which is obviously not conducive to being a doc).

2) I have decided to keep my personal statement focused on the positive and to address the infractions (and of course all I learned from them and my journey out of mediocrity) in my secondaries, when they ask for info re. any offenses (and volunteer the info on apps which do not ask explicitly, garnering points, hopefully, for candor). Opinions on this strategy?

3) I came from a relatively poor (by American standards) family (30-35K average growing up with 8 kids) and we got food stamps, cheese, etc. (and I worked since 13 helping pay for my expenses), so I know I qualify for disavantaged status by those measures, but what are your opinions about addressing social dysfunction in the disadvantaged portion of the AMCAS app? As I mentioned, my childhood was filled with chaos, violence, instability and alcohol abuse by my mom and marijuana abuse by my dad (and sometimes cocaine). My mom was sent to the hospital in our ~1500 person town several times and domestic violence reported in our local newspaper, so it was pretty ****ty to come to school sometimes. In addition, my only "blood" brother committed suicide (I was 13, he 15) when I started high school (a direct result of depression over our family life/inability to protect my mother as his note reported). While I don't want to go into dramatic, lurid detail, I think these things are relevent to disadvantage (psychological) and perhaps bring into relief my accomplishments (as well as my failures). I do not, however, want to sound as if I am excusing my behavior in the two years after high school by my childhood, however, so I would welcome opinions about such. This is all further complicated by the fact that it was his death that originally spurred my desire to be a doctor (a response to my helplessness, most likely, though my motivation has matured substantially since then).

4) Finally, I withdrew from two courses spring semester of my junior year and got a C+ and D+ in Orgo II and Orgo II Lab, the only two courses I took. I retook both later and got As. I became an atheist that quarter and I simply was in the process of shifting my worldview (including the death of two brothers) to adjust and was a little depressed (I had taken classes during summer the prior three years in addition to the normal school year and was also a little burnt out). I followed this up with a good senior year (when I did research and was a teaching assistant) but I also had to withdraw from a class spring semester called "Medicine as a Career" taught by my pre-med advisor (though I did attend every lecture) b/c I was unable, with my research responsibilities (trying to finish by graduation), to participate in a substantial volunteer experience that quarter (I have a great rec from my advisor, regardless; he understood). I also had to withdraw from Orgo Lab II last fall at UW (it was an accident, I had dropped all classes but that one before the deadline but needed a signature I simply forgot, so it was recorded as a W instead of as me simply not attending that quarter). During spring quarter, I had to withdraw from one of my five upper level science courses to keep up and finally, as I mentioned, I had to withdraw during summer this year, extending my education into this fall (and the start of a sixth year) to finish. All told, that is 7 Ws over 5 semesters/quarters. Is this impossible to explain away? Will I ever even get a chance? I have ended college this semester with 18 credits of upper level science (and medical history) with a GPA of 3.7 (projected based upon 1/2 way point).

BTW
My AMCAS GPA is 3.50 and MCATs are 34R.

Anyhow, thanks for your patience and I appreciate any personal experiences/advice you can offer. 😀
 
Please refer to the "what are my chances" sticky and buy an MSAR.
 
Well that is quite a story!

I think the key to getting into medical school for you will be to show that you are now a much more mature person, and that you have successfully overcome all of these adversities.

Your GPA and MCAT seem fine, except for the Biochemistry post-bacc. You may have to explain about that one. And when did you take the MCAT? It expries after three years for most schools, so for the 2006-2007 app cycle, the oldest that will be accepted is April of 2004. Some schools even want two years or less.
 
Flopotomist said:
Please refer to the "what are my chances" sticky and buy an MSAR.

I think that is a little flippant for such an involved story.
 
maybe you should talk to a dean of some school and see what he says about it.
good luck
 
tacrum43 said:
I think that is a little flippant for such an involved story.
Maybe the poster had a question buried somewhere in that post (the longest I have ever seen on here) - but my eyes glazed over, and I missed it. If there was a question that wasn't answered by either of the references that I pointed out, I apologise, otherwise, I think any question would have been answered in the areas I suggested.
 
Flopotomist said:
Maybe the poster had a question buried somewhere in that post (the longest I have ever seen on here) - but my eyes glazed over, and I missed it. If there was a question that wasn't answered by either of the references that I pointed out, I apologise, otherwise, I think any question would have been answered in the areas I suggested.


Most of the questions were in the bulleted 1-4 section. I don't give a $%it if my post was boring or long to you. If you are bored enough that your eyes glazed over, maybe you should have stopped reading (dumb*&it). Certainly it was a waste of your time if you were not going to contribute positively (or even negatively, for that matter; you simply wrote to express your lack of input; brilliant!). I have a unique (if sordid) situation and simply wanted some advice, but I can be a real dick in some of my replies, too, so don't worry about it.
 
einnewt said:
Most of the questions were in the bulleted 1-4 section. I don't give a $%it if my post was boring or long to you. If you are bored enough that your eyes glazed over, maybe you should have stopped reading (dumb*&it). Certainly it was a waste of your time if you were not going to contribute positively (or even negatively, for that matter; you simply wrote to express your lack of input; brilliant!). I have a unique (if sordid) situation and simply wanted some advice, but I can be a real dick in some of my replies, too, so don't worry about it.
Hey - no need to resort to name calling. I did contribute in what I thought was a positive way. I referred you to TWO sources of information that would give you answers better than the opinions of a bunch of applicants. If all applicants posted thread this long describing their "unique" situations, the forum would be clogged - hence the consolidation of posts like this in the "what are my chances" sticky.
 
Give me a break! I will not resort to name-calling any longer (childish), but your post was obviously (if subtly) flippant. I do not buy that you were simply trying to help. And I do not think there is that big a danger of the board getting clogged judging by the frequency of posts on it (unless of course, I were to start posting a little more often, lol). Finally, come on, man, my situation is extreme and I was simply fishing for those who are similarly extreme (not covered in "what are my chances") and I was not looking for a "what are my chances?" answer if you read my post, but rather, specific rhetorical advice on how to address specific details. Thanks to those of you who have obliged (most in private); I greatly appreciate it.


Flopotomist said:
Hey - no need to resort to name calling. I did contribute in what I thought was a positive way. I referred you to TWO sources of information that would give you answers better than the opinions of a bunch of applicants. If all applicants posted thread this long describing their "unique" situations, the forum would be clogged - hence the consolidation of posts like this in the "what are my chances" sticky.
 
well i think you definately have overcome quite a bit and i think admission committees appreciate that. Even though this was from a different era, my idol Dr. Ben Carson of John Hopkins (whose book I definately recommend, if you havent already read it) went through quite a bit of trauma. Bad temper (to the point where he could have killed a friend), poverty, etc. He is definately someone to aspire to. But i think if you focus on what you learned and what you have accomplished since those times, then I think they would definately appreciate it. My two cents...
 
Oy vey, why should I care about your miserable little life.

Your arrogance is revolting.

feh...
 
einnewt said:
Anyhow, thanks for your patience and I appreciate any personal experiences/advice you can offer. 😀

I can confidently say that you'd likely get accepted somewhere with this story.

I'm guessing, however, that you really want in at the UW. You're not guaranteed an interview, but you will mostly get one. If you have good reasons for wanting to go to UW other than geographic circumstances, and good reasons for wanting to be a doctor, I think your chances are good.
 
I think the charges will be too much. Sorry man, but with a total of 6 different drug or alcohol related charges, I just don't see any committee being able to overlook that.
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
Oy vey, why should I care about your miserable little life.

Your arrogance is revolting.

feh...
wow.. stick around long enough, and I find myself agreeing with mercap on something.. scary.
 
You seem like a prick.
But anyway. Play up the hardships in your life, schools dig that crap. Your numbers are good, you can clearly hack the work load, you need to convince them that you are over the other garbage. I give this advice to anyone with serious negatives in there app. don't avoid it they WILL see it. Confront it head on in your personal statement and tell them why they should see it as a positive or at least not count it against you, focus on the C+/D+ to A as proof that you turned it around not only grade wise but your whole focus. Wrap it up with a paragraph describing how you're glad all that **** happened because it made you appreciate the process and make a concious decision to focus your life, more than some punk skating through college on his parents buck that always got A's. you have nothing to lose by applying, if you can afford it I don't think your past is going to kill your app.
 
dynx said:
You seem like a prick.
But anyway. Play up the hardships in your life, schools dig that crap.

Uhm - I am sorry, but 6 criminal convictions is not a hardship - it is a demonstrable character flaw. Would you want this guy operating on you?
 
The bad grades are surmountable (the retakes and MCAT make up for it, imo), the overall academic/research package is qualified (or better), but the criminal offenses might hamstring you. You'll have to apply to a good number of schools to counteract the DUIs, because at least some schools will likely reject because of it. It could easily keep you out of US schools altogether.

I wouldn't put much stock in the mensa or political stuff, but the clinical experience should be sufficient.
 
Flopotomist said:
Uhm - I am sorry, but 6 criminal convictions is not a hardship - it is a demonstrable character flaw. Would you want this guy operating on you?

Yeah, the OP exhibits a sort of a prickishness that indicates that the underlying arrogance that led him to the sort of unruly behavior he engaged in in the past is still there. If he had undergone some sort of epiphany and changed his *character*, not just his illegal behavior stemming from that character, then I would say "great, you should apply." But the fact that this harsh stubborn arrogance persists suggests that he might not be the best with patients. I don't mean to judge, and as I have never met the OP I won't go on criticizing, but I sincerely hope that he will try to change the way he views himself and others.

Oh yeah, and mensa is yet another indication of his insecurities (and the fact that he lists it, of his arrogance). What a pointless organization!
 
It appears that those calling the OP a prick are the actual pricks in this thread. If everything that this guy went through while growing up is true, then I think he deserves a little slack for doing well since making some of the stupid decisions he made. Eight years since his last charge and not another on the horizon would tell me that he's come a long way and has finally figured things out. I just don't understand how anyone can sit here and go with the holier than thou attitude when most people cannot even begin to imagine growing up with in that kind of environment (if all is true). Like some others have said, try and get in touch with a dean of admissions somewhere and see what they say. I'm sure they would be brutally honest with you.
 
2) I have decided to keep my personal statement focused on the positive and to address the infractions (and of course all I learned from them and my journey out of mediocrity) in my secondaries, when they ask for info re. any offenses (and volunteer the info on apps which do not ask explicitly, garnering points, hopefully, for candor). Opinions on this strategy?

Einnewt,

That is exactly what I would do if I were in your situation. In the secondaries there is always a place description about any infractions that you may have, and I would use that as an opportunity to explain yourself. It seems you did the right thing....give the good stuff first, then the negative stuff later. If the charges against you are the only things holding them back from accepting you, then they might give you an interview and address it then. I would just make sure that you have a well-written explanation in your secondaries, and get ready to talk about this in-person with the interview board. Best of luck to you.
 
Flopotomist said:
Uhm - I am sorry, but 6 criminal convictions is not a hardship - it is a demonstrable character flaw. Would you want this guy operating on you?

Valid point but he was asking for advice on applying. There are a lot of current med students I wouldnt want operating on me.
 
godawgs39 said:
It appears that those calling the OP a prick are the actual pricks in this thread. If everything that this guy went through while growing up is true, then I think he deserves a little slack for doing well since making some of the stupid decisions he made. Eight years since his last charge and not another on the horizon would tell me that he's come a long way and has finally figured things out. I just don't understand how anyone can sit here and go with the holier than thou attitude when most people cannot even begin to imagine growing up with in that kind of environment (if all is true). Like some others have said, try and get in touch with a dean of admissions somewhere and see what they say. I'm sure they would be brutally honest with you.

Ah, finally an intelligent response. I can't figure out why people on here think the OP is arrogant. I read his post and didn't get that impression at all. In fact, I was pretty impressed with the guy. Getting over that kind of childhood is harder than you think. I'm guessing that those of you making snide remarks about his arrogance never faced poverty and abuse growing up.

It will be hard to explain the convictions, but it seems like you should be able to, since it has been 8 years and you have really changed your life in that time.
 
mercaptovizadeh said:
Yeah, the OP exhibits a sort of a prickishness that indicates that the underlying arrogance that led him to the sort of unruly behavior he engaged in in the past is still there. If he had undergone some sort of epiphany and changed his *character*, not just his illegal behavior stemming from that character, then I would say "great, you should apply." But the fact that this harsh stubborn arrogance persists suggests that he might not be the best with patients. I don't mean to judge, and as I have never met the OP I won't go on criticizing, but I sincerely hope that he will try to change the way he views himself and others.

Oh yeah, and mensa is yet another indication of his insecurities (and the fact that he lists it, of his arrogance). What a pointless organization!



Indeed, I can be a p&%ck and can be quite arrogant, but I don't think these individual flaws disqualify me from being a competent doctor (I've noticed actually, these traits are common among pre-meds). It is obvious from both you and a flopotomist's posts that you can let your pri$%ishness and arrogance get the better of you, too. I don't doubt that you have gifts I am unaware of that compensate.

Mensa is, above all, a social organization. I am a member b/c it provides a dependable outlet for many of my ideas that most people either can't understand, do not want to or are not interested in. With my MCAT score, I feel no need to further emphasize my intelligence and with your MCAT score (41!) conspicuously listed on your profile, I could make an analogous arguement that you are insecure yourself, but I won't b/c I can handle the fact that you are probably demonstrably smarter than me. I put it in my synopsis b/c it is what I do (i.e. one of my ECs) that I enjoy (a part of who I am that I should convey to the committee. I appreciate the input, however, b/c I now see it can easily taken as arrogant, pretentious (though I still think MCATs and Mensa, taken as simply declarations of IQ and not as activities where I get to meet other interesting, stimulating people, assert essentially the same thing).

Finally, I have not touched either alcohol or drugs for over 8 years. I am a case where treatment and sheer power of mind was successful. The fact is that 5% of those students which any given school admits will end up manifesting a substance abuse problem by the end of their training. In light of this, I think I am a safe bet (given my abstinence as verified by long-standing random urinalyses). My actions were, indeed, the result of flawed character, but I refuse to believe (because my experience proves it true) that our character is immutable (which is not to say it is easy to change). Finally, alcoholism is one of the most undetected and hence untreated maladies in modern medicine (though I am not an alcoholic, per se). My experience makes me constantly aware of this and vigilant for it, for what it is worth.

B/c I write long posts or tell my story at length seeking advice does not, necessarily, mean I am arrogant. But rather I trust that those who could give a **** will move on to something that interests. Surely I do not think my situation/thoughts are profound enough that everyone should slog through it if they don't want to.
 
This "flame war" (as I gather it is called) was excacerbated by my response to flopotomist's original reply, which I perceived as deliberately callous and flippant. I responded in kind and was wrong for it. For that, Flopotomist, I apologize and will take your suggestions at face value.
 
That picture you have (of the weiner dog) may just be the cutest damn thing I have ever seen ("I want to hold him and love him and pet him!")


SanDiegoSOD said:
I think the charges will be too much. Sorry man, but with a total of 6 different drug or alcohol related charges, I just don't see any committee being able to overlook that.
 
Flopotomist said:
Maybe the poster had a question buried somewhere in that post (the longest I have ever seen on here) - but my eyes glazed over, and I missed it. If there was a question that wasn't answered by either of the references that I pointed out, I apologise, otherwise, I think any question would have been answered in the areas I suggested.

There were many valid and unique questions in his post and as far as I know no one made you click on his post. And when did it become standard practice to respond to posts one has not read?
 
I don't think you have a damn thing to apologize for ein. This is rejection season you know, and people are likely a bit grumpy after seeing stacks of rejections in their inboxes.

People like flop wouldn't say something like "the longest post ever here" if it were something to do with gays or URMs or whatever PC crap threads go on here. Then it's fine to have a long, detailed post. But sorry chap, you have legitimate questions that don't involve gay/black/bi/tranny individuals, so you obviously don't deserve the time of day!

The fact is you were baited, you weren't the one who spoke out of line first. You have some legitimate hurdles to overcome and came here for advice; of course all the self-obsessed pre-med and pre-med wannabees (many of which are smarting from recent and numerous rejections) come out of the closet and deign to judge you and your whole life based on some insignificant posts in an anonymous forum.

You may or may not have luck getting into an MD program, DO may be more likely, but for sure you shouldn't pay any of these turds any mind whatsoever, nor should you apologize to jackasses when they don't deserve it.
 
Hey guys - before we all jump on the bash Flop bandwagon - go back and read my original response to the guy... I gave him two sources to find answers to his questions. Geesh.
 
It will be hard to get much attention from the adcoms with the "strikes" against you but if you can, your story will win someone over. Although I havent had nearly the hardships that you have, I have made some notable "transitions" in my life and have similar stories to tell about them. As some people know, these types of transitions usually result, or come as a result of, significant [negative] deviations from the normal pre-med trajectory a.k.a. blemishes. Anyway, Im applying now and because of my abnormal CV, I applied to a larger than average number of schools and have gotten a probably smaller than average number of interviews and no acceptances yet. Im hopeful though, mainly because at each of my interviews I met a dean or interviewer who I felt had liked my story and was the reason I was there at all.

So, my point is, nothing I read in your post disqualifies you from being a doctor but it could be very difficult to get in. On the other hand, considering what you've over come already, maybe it will be no sweat.
 
Scoot said:
As some people know, these types of transitions usually result, or come as a result of, significant [negative] deviations from the normal pre-med trajectory a.k.a. blemishes.
Six criminal convictions does not constitute a "blemish." It demonstrates a pattern of lack of respect for authority and law - two characteristics that I would not want in a fellow classmate, let alone a future physician.
 
From what I can recall there are two things that will automatically earn you a rejection. 1. A felony conviction and 2. A controlled substance conviction. You definitely have 2 controlled substance convictions, so I am going to say that you most likely will be S.O.L. Correct me if I am wrong on these assumptions, but this is what I have been told for as long as I can remember.
 
NCF145 said:
From what I can recall there are two things that will automatically earn you a rejection. 1. A felony conviction and 2. A controlled substance conviction. You definitely have 2 controlled substance convictions, so I am going to say that you most likely will be S.O.L. Correct me if I am wrong on these assumptions, but this is what I have been told for as long as I can remember.

There is supposedly a DO on the forums with a DUI on his record (not a youthful offense) that is currently in residency. I asked a similar question and he said he had to "jump through some extra hoops" but he's doing it.

Who told you a misdemeanor possession means you're SOL? Felony I can understand as you won't be able to get a license.
 
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