Okay gusy...I wanna know what people think of THIS....

[Sagar2008]

TITLE: I wanna know what people THINK of THIS....(sorry, misspelled THINK in the title)


This was written by Spreebee in another thread. He/she makes really good points, so I want to know what your thoughts are on this....

"""""Apply to either St. George, AUC, or ROSS in the Caribbean (OR YOU CAN DO AN SMP IF YOU WANT TO TAKE ANOTHER SHOT AT IT)... These are the BIG 3 that will allow you to gain residency and practice in all 50 states...Most talk about Caribbean on this board is rumor mill... Here are some facts:

1) Go to one of these 3 schools out of the 20 some in the Caribbean and you will be fine

-->Only about a 10% attrition rate at these 3 schools (mostly from partying and blowing off your studies = undergrad mentality)
--> Some people Decel and graduate a semester or 2 later
--> At my school down here, you can fail about 20 credits or the same class twice before your put infront of the board for dismissal
--> Out of 175, we lost only 10 in the first semester

2) You can get any Residency you want regardless if you go the the Big 3 or the States

--> If you score a 240-270 on step 1 you can match into plastics just like any other U.S. grad (or any other competitive residency you want)-->Has happened countless times (thousands of physicians form these schools currently practicing in the states in all fields)
--> Clinical rotations are in the United States and you can choose your own electives
--> Many Program Directors are familar with these schools and respect them (some program directors graduated from these schools)
--> 100% of U.S. citizens undergoing education at the (BIG 3) get a residency (eventually, if they want it, can pre-match, etc.)
-->Many students match into university programs (my school had like 10-15% go to the same D-1 university program last match)

3) Many of the faculty are former U.S. medical school faculty or visiting U.S. medical school faculty (some famous)

4) You can get U.S. government loans at the BIG 3 (Fafsa, grad plus, etc...)

5) AUC'S owner OWNS A D.O. SCHOOL IN THE STATES!!!

Anyways, I have cadavers, clinically oriented anatomy, professors from U.S. medical schools, Austrailan medical schools, European medical schools at my school, plus you are on a beach in paradise... What a way to spend basic sciences...

If you dont want to take a chance on stalling your life further by a rejection from the U.S. schools come to the Caribbean... There are alot of Americans at the big 3 (like >97%)... Personally, with your stats go to St. George because they are the Harvard of the Caribbean, with AUC being the Yale... About 15% of St. George's 2nd year class transfer back to the states after the step...

Need anymore information you got it.. Just p.m. me....

It's nice knowing I will be entering clinicals soon in the U.S. and am still not trying to get accepted to a state school because nothing is for sure in this world... Take care....""""

---

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[Perrotfish]

--> 100% of U.S. citizens undergoing education at the (BIG 3) get a residency (eventually, if they want it, can pre-match, etc.)

The part in bold is key, even though it doesn´t actually make this statement true.

The islands are good alternitives to people who have few alternatives. They´re a second chance for a respectable MD. Their poor residency match stats mean that they´re not a good alternative to US MD or US DO for those who have the option.

 

[JaggerPlate]

TITLE: I wanna know what people THINK of THIS....(sorry, misspelled THINK in the title)


This was written by Spreebee in another thread. He/she makes really good points, so I want to know what your thoughts are on this....

"""""Apply to either St. George, AUC, or ROSS in the Caribbean (OR YOU CAN DO AN SMP IF YOU WANT TO TAKE ANOTHER SHOT AT IT)... These are the BIG 3 that will allow you to gain residency and practice in all 50 states...Most talk about Caribbean on this board is rumor mill... Here are some facts:

1) Go to one of these 3 schools out of the 20 some in the Caribbean and you will be fine

-->Only about a 10% attrition rate at these 3 schools (mostly from partying and blowing off your studies = undergrad mentality)
--> Some people Decel and graduate a semester or 2 later
--> At my school down here, you can fail about 20 credits or the same class twice before your put infront of the board for dismissal
--> Out of 175, we lost only 10 in the first semester

2) You can get any Residency you want regardless if you go the the Big 3 or the States

--> If you score a 240-270 on step 1 you can match into plastics just like any other U.S. grad (or any other competitive residency you want)-->Has happened countless times (thousands of physicians form these schools currently practicing in the states in all fields)
--> Clinical rotations are in the United States and you can choose your own electives
--> Many Program Directors are familar with these schools and respect them (some program directors graduated from these schools)
--> 100% of U.S. citizens undergoing education at the (BIG 3) get a residency (eventually, if they want it, can pre-match, etc.)
-->Many students match into university programs (my school had like 10-15% go to the same D-1 university program last match)

3) Many of the faculty are former U.S. medical school faculty or visiting U.S. medical school faculty (some famous)

4) You can get U.S. government loans at the BIG 3 (Fafsa, grad plus, etc...)

5) AUC'S owner OWNS A D.O. SCHOOL IN THE STATES!!!

Anyways, I have cadavers, clinically oriented anatomy, professors from U.S. medical schools, Austrailan medical schools, European medical schools at my school, plus you are on a beach in paradise... What a way to spend basic sciences...

If you dont want to take a chance on stalling your life further by a rejection from the U.S. schools come to the Caribbean... There are alot of Americans at the big 3 (like >97%)... Personally, with your stats go to St. George because they are the Harvard of the Caribbean, with AUC being the Yale... About 15% of St. George's 2nd year class transfer back to the states after the step...

Need anymore information you got it.. Just p.m. me....

It's nice knowing I will be entering clinicals soon in the U.S. and am still not trying to get accepted to a state school because nothing is for sure in this world... Take care....""""

I don't want to flame too badly but I don't think there is much argument that foreign med school grads have a much much harder time matching into competitive residencies. There was recently a thread in the surgery forum about how because of so many qualified applicants graduating from US medical schools it has been one of the worst years for foreign grads matching into surgery (it was also written by a Carib student trying to match).

I have also never heard of a plastic surgeon who attended a Carib school and landed a plastics residency and for some reason the phrase 'Harvard of the Caribbean' made me laugh.

I'm glad you feel comfortable with Carib med schools, but be aware that everything isn't always what it seems, and that there are certain downfalls to attending a foreign medical school and attempting to practice in the US.

 

[Sagar2008]

This was written by SpreeBee in another thread. He/she makes some really good arguments, so want to see what others think about this....


""""Apply to either St. George, AUC, or ROSS in the Caribbean (OR YOU CAN DO AN SMP IF YOU WANT TO TAKE ANOTHER SHOT AT IT)... These are the BIG 3 that will allow you to gain residency and practice in all 50 states...Most talk about Caribbean on this board is rumor mill... Here are some facts:

1) Go to one of these 3 schools out of the 20 some in the Caribbean and you will be fine

-->Only about a 10% attrition rate at these 3 schools (mostly from partying and blowing off your studies = undergrad mentality)
--> Some people Decel and graduate a semester or 2 later
--> At my school down here, you can fail about 20 credits or the same class twice before your put infront of the board for dismissal
--> Out of 175, we lost only 10 in the first semester

2) You can get any Residency you want regardless if you go the the Big 3 or the States

--> If you score a 240-270 on step 1 you can match into plastics just like any other U.S. grad (or any other competitive residency you want)-->Has happened countless times (thousands of physicians form these schools currently practicing in the states in all fields)
--> Clinical rotations are in the United States and you can choose your own electives
--> Many Program Directors are familar with these schools and respect them (some program directors graduated from these schools)
--> 100% of U.S. citizens undergoing education at the (BIG 3) get a residency (eventually, if they want it, can pre-match, etc.)
-->Many students match into university programs (my school had like 10-15% go to the same D-1 university program last match)

3) Many of the faculty are former U.S. medical school faculty or visiting U.S. medical school faculty (some famous)

4) You can get U.S. government loans at the BIG 3 (Fafsa, grad plus, etc...)

5) AUC'S owner OWNS A D.O. SCHOOL IN THE STATES!!!

Anyways, I have cadavers, clinically oriented anatomy, professors from U.S. medical schools, Austrailan medical schools, European medical schools at my school, plus you are on a beach in paradise... What a way to spend basic sciences...

If you dont want to take a chance on stalling your life further by a rejection from the U.S. schools come to the Caribbean... There are alot of Americans at the big 3 (like >97%)... Personally, with your stats go to St. George because they are the Harvard of the Caribbean, with AUC being the Yale... About 15% of St. George's 2nd year class transfer back to the states after the step...

Need anymore information you got it.. Just p.m. me....

It's nice knowing I will be entering clinicals soon in the U.S. and am still not trying to get accepted to a state school because nothing is for sure in this world... Take care....""""

 

[paranoid_eyes]

DO>FMG

in the medical world (NOT the premed world) DO=MD.

 

[Bond8204]

...Everything the person says is true. Some points:

--Losing 10 people in the first year is a big deal.
--You will have to schedule your own clinicals in the US.
--Moving to the Carribean is a big committment that a lot of friends and family aren't exactly going to understand.

That said, once you're in residency, nobody gives a crap where you went to school. I bought a book recently called "Choosing a Specialty" with each chapter being written by a specialist in that field--one of the authors of the book was a graduate of SGU.

I personally would rather go to a good DO school than the Carribbean. That's just my decision.

 

[JaggerPlate]

DO>FMG

in the medical world (NOT the premed world) DO=MD.

I agree all around !

 

[coffeebythelake]

DO>FMG

in the medical world (NOT the premed world) DO=MD.

Yeah. But if you want to practice abroad, it might be better to have MD.

 

[167649]

Yeah. But if you want to practice abroad, it might be better to have MD.

Depends on the country, but more are recognizing the US DO as equivalent.

 

[metalgearHMN]

what a terrible, terrible title. even your edit didn't fix all the mistakes.

but to add to the thread, no matter how you look at it CaribMD as the last resort and everything will be more difficult if you go that route (aside from admissions itself)

 

[nonesuchgirl]

DO>FMG

in the medical world (NOT the premed world) DO=MD.

qft.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Yeah. But if you want to practice abroad, it might be better to have MD.

I've heard that it is difficult regardless (MD or DO), but yes ... the MD is probably more recognized on a world wide scale.

 

[coffeebythelake]

I've heard that it is difficult regardless (MD or DO), but yes ... the MD is probably more recognized on a world wide scale.

In some places in the world, the perception is that DO = chiropractor. Especially in Commonwealth countries.

 

[JaggerPlate]

In some places in the world, the perception is that DO = chiropractor. Especially in Commonwealth countries.

Yup. In various places a DO degree only encompasses 'osteopathy' and the manipulative side of osteopathic medicine. The medical training isn't included in the school curriculum in these countries and so the degree isn't recognized as a medical degree like it is in the states. However, in the pre-osteo forums faq there is a listing of all countries where the DO is recognized as a medical degree, and the fact that some places only recognize it for manipulation (not chiropractor) doesn't have any indication of the medical training of US DOs. I think that in some places in Canada (where I believe you are from) this is the case.

 

[BigRedPremed]

A lot of Carrib students have trouble passing the courses and/or the USMLE's (hence the high attrition rate). However, even after getting through all that, 50% of them still don't match ANYWHERE. This 50% rate is for both US-born and foreign-born FMG/IMG's so it's not strictly a language issue.

Sure, if you have a 260 on the USMLE's, you MIGHT have a decent shot at a competitive residency. But, how many US MD students get that score, muchless the Carib students? It's easy to say, "Just get a 260, all honors, and publish 3 times before application and you'll be fine." But the resources are not in place. There are less research opps available. Most of the Carib schools don't have AOA. There is an inherent bias against foreign medical graduates (no one can doubt this).

DO is a better route.

 

[BrainBuff]

A lot of Carrib students have trouble passing the courses and/or the USMLE's (hence the high attrition rate). However, even after getting through all that, 50% of them still don't match ANYWHERE. This 50% rate is for both US-born and foreign-born FMG/IMG's so it's not strictly a language issue.

Sure, if you have a 260 on the USMLE's, you MIGHT have a decent shot at a competitive residency. But, how many US MD students get that score, muchless the Carib students? It's easy to say, "Just get a 260, all honors, and publish 3 times before application and you'll be fine." But the resources are not in place. There are less research opps available. Most of the Carib schools don't have AOA. There is an inherent bias against foreign medical graduates (no one can doubt this).

DO is a better route.

I agree. I also found the comment about the Big 3 absolutely hilarious. The caribbean medical schools are known in the US because of the american students market. The rest of Latin America has never heard of them. The Harvard and the Yale of the caribbean? Come on..out of how many total ??

 

[berkeleyvala]

I dunno if FMG is any less than a D.O. My cousin graduated from a medical school in india, rocked Step 1 and 2, and did his intern year and first year of general surgery at Keck (University of Southern California). He wants to switch his specialty and was just offered a position in Harvard's anesthesiology residency program. I wouldn't say his education was inferior.

 

[Wylde]

In some places in the world, the perception is that DO = chiropractor. Especially in Commonwealth countries.

so you're saying that some people are completely ignorant and their opinions are based on zero facts? Surprising!

What is your point? That just means that some people do not know what a DO is, not that DOs have a subpar education/skills.

 

[nonesuchgirl]

I dunno if FMG is any less than a D.O. My cousin graduated from a medical school in india, rocked Step 1 and 2, and did his intern year and first year of general surgery at Keck (University of Southern California). He wants to switch his specialty and was just offered a position in Harvard's anesthesiology residency program. I wouldn't say his education was inferior.

india =/= carrib.

unless i need to relearn geography.

 

[Phoenix.]

Moving to the Carib Forum.

 

[oldpro]

why was this moved? Cause it mentioned Caribbean?

 

[leorl]

I didn't make the decision to move it, but can see why it would be moved. It's basically a one-sided discussion on Caribbean issues and does not involve the larger US allopathic community. Those on the US side wishing to participate would be coming to the Caribbean forums to discuss anyway.

 

[oldpro]

I didn't make the decision to move it, but can see why it would be moved. It's basically a one-sided discussion on Caribbean issues and does not involve the larger US allopathic community. Those on the US side wishing to participate would be coming to the Caribbean forums to discuss anyway.

Yes I understand but the OP was addressing this to the readers they wanted opinions from, a low percentage of Allo readers read the Caribbeam forums here so this is now put where the OP may not have intended to post, not the intended audience.

Just because Caribbean is the subject does not mean the Caribbean crowd is being asked for an opinion.

Just my take on it.

 

[167649]

I've heard that it is difficult regardless (MD or DO), but yes ... the MD is probably more recognized on a world wide scale.

In some places in the world, the perception is that DO = chiropractor. Especially in Commonwealth countries.

so you're saying that some people are completely ignorant and their opinions are based on zero facts? Surprising!

What is your point? That just means that some people do not know what a DO is, not that DOs have a subpar education/skills.

This should help solve the issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ImageOworld.PNG

Keep in mind that in many of those countries that show no data, they could care less what you have, MD or DO, especially less privilidged nations in africa and asia. If all you want to do is humanitarian work it won't matter at all. Settling down and practicing, and obtaining a liscence there, might be a different story.

EDIT: I love how it stuck the smiley in there.

 

[167649]

I dunno if FMG is any less than a D.O. My cousin graduated from a medical school in india, rocked Step 1 and 2, and did his intern year and first year of general surgery at Keck (University of Southern California). He wants to switch his specialty and was just offered a position in Harvard's anesthesiology residency program. I wouldn't say his education was inferior.

Actually, I have huge respect for FMG's and Carribean students who do make it to a US residency. In order to do so, their board scores had to be way above all the US graduates, because there is a tremendous bias in the match against them.

But that being said, from a US applicant's individual perspective, you face a much larger hurdle in going to the carribean than you do staying in the states.

 

[oldschool79]

This will undoubtedly receive a sizable negative response given the tone of this thread, but so be it. It's not my intention to flame, but this needs to be said.

For those considering Caribbean schools, some of the information here is either plain and simple false, or personal opinion masquerading as fact.

1. Is DO better than Carib MD? No one can objectively answer this. It depends on a myriad of factors, not the least of which is what medical philosophy you tend to agree more with. Yes the lines are blurring between DO's and MD's, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing, or that one is better than another.

2. 50% of Carib grads don't get matched anywhere? This is absolutely false. Nearly all U.S. grads of these schools match into a U.S. residency (though not 100% either). First choice? I don't know. Second? I don't know. A harder time matching into competitive residencies? Perhaps, but to say 50% can't match anywhere is ridiculous to the point of being laughable, and there is no data anywhere that supports this, except possibly in the imagination of someone at a US school who is insecure about being beaten out of a spot by a Carib grad.

Is there a plastics resident out there that graduated from a Carib school? Maybe, I would think so. But I'm not going to say yes absolutely, because I honestly don't know. I've seen a couple neurosurgery residents from them, both on these forums and on the published match lists, and from what I understand that's pretty competitive, so with hard work I would assume you can do anything you want as long as the school is approved by the individual state.

The OP asked for opinions, and that's fine of course. But in the course of giving your opinion, try not to present it as fact. I would hope that when some of us are practicing medicine later on, we're a little more careful about shooting from the hip with careless statements like these. And for those of you doing your research on these schools, or anything else in life for that matter, I hope you learn to differentiate fact from fiction as quickly as possible.

If you are in the habit of giving out false information as fact to make yourself more comfortable with your own choices, then you don't have any business being a doctor, regardless of where you go to school.

 

[oldpro]

Well its what I have been saying for years........

DO not post something that is not verifiable it is peoples futures here and they need the real deal.

Also this is America and people have a choice, if they choose to persue medical education offshore and know the risks ( mostly its themselves that are the biggest risk, thier abilities) then they do not need immature premeds posting shocking untrue things.

It is time for this web site to take a step up to a higher mature plane.

FOr those not in medical school yet

all the schools use the same material in 2008

Netters, Coltran, Lippincott, Robbins, Lange, Kaplan,Merk to drop a few names......

The world is more the same then not in 2008 a lesson that needs to be taught to the old guard! ( who I think help to spread this crap in the first place! they are threatened by the success of all of us)

 

[167649]

2. 50% of Carib grads don't get matched anywhere? This is absolutely false. Nearly all U.S. grads of these schools match into a U.S. residency (though not 100% either). First choice? I don't know. Second? I don't know. A harder time matching into competitive residencies? Perhaps, but to say 50% can't match anywhere is ridiculous to the point of being laughable, and there is no data anywhere that supports this, except possibly in the imagination of someone at a US school who is insecure about being beaten out of a spot by a Carib grad.

I'm not going to address the other issues in your post, but for one thing, check out page 8 of "Charting Outcomes in the Match." The success rate for FMG's, at it's highest, is 65%, and at it's lowest is 30%. It averages to 50%.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/matchoutcomes2006.pdf

You talk about lack of evidence and yet you don't have any to support your own assumptions? Please enlighten me and post a verifiable source as to where you get your data.

 

[oldschool79]

I'm not going to address the other issues in your post, but for one thing, check out page 8 of "Charting Outcomes in the Match." The success rate for FMG's, at it's highest, is 65%, and at it's lowest is 30%. It averages to 50%.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/matchoutcomes2006.pdf

You talk about lack of evidence and yet you don't have any to support your own assumptions? Please enlighten me and post a verifiable source as to where you get your data.

First off, that's an excellent source. However, there is a problem with it as far as how it relates to the discussion at hand. No where does it differentiate between Carib grads and grads of other foreign schools, it simply lumps them into "all others." Also, as a follow on to this omission, it does not differentiate between graduates of these schools that are US citizens and those that are not. This distinction would be of key interest to US citizens looking to go to the Carib for their education.

Second, a quote/disclaimer directly from the report: "Readers should bear in mind that there also are thousands in the All Others category who are excluded from the tabulations because they did not certify a rank order list. In some cases this may be because they were unsuccessful in gaining serious consideration and an interview from any program. In other cases, the applicant may have accepted an out-of-match appointment prior to the match, an option not available to U.S. seniors." Which of these is actually the more influential factor is unknown, but "thousands" not included suggests a very large margin of error in the data.

There is, however, a line in the report stating that program directors generally try to fill spots with US grads first. But this obviously will vary from program to program, and again, there is no distinction between where outside of the US the school is located, or between US citizens and foreign nationals.

Another quote: "For the purposes of this report, we define match success as a match to the specialty of the applicant's first-ranked program, because that is assumed to be the specialty of choice. Lack of success includes matching to some other specialty as well as failure to match at all.

This speaks for itself. Just because they don't always get first choice, doesn't mean they don't match at all, as the original statement said.

These factors, in my opinion, make the report very inconclusive for a US citizen looking to go to the Caribbean. Great info, really, but by it's own admission it involves a very significant margin of error in regard to IMG's.

Also, I don't think anyone will argue against the fact that there are a number of Carib schools that are not reputable, and I would assume that these schools only serve to further skew the numbers.

As far as my own data? Well, nothing quite so elaborate as that report, but in my opinion is a far more precise indicator for the question at hand. From US News & World Report's Ultimate Guide to Medical Schools, here are some statistics:

1. From AUC: The % of first year residency placements in the US: 81.5%
--- Again, no distinction between US citizens and foreigners, which is a key detail if the discussion here is about where US citizens should go.

2. From Ross: 96% of eligible grads get a US residency. (64% through match, 16.3 % prematch [as noted in your report, this is a significant number], 19.5% outside the match)

3. From St. George: 99% of eligible US graduates achieve residency in the US, throughout all 50 states.

Only St. George's data separates the US grads from the others, and I think it would be a valid assumption that non US citizens bring the numbers down due to visas, etc. An assumption though, and not intended to be any offense to non-US citizens.

So, I would like to reaffirm that the statement "50% can't match anywhere" is still a totally invalid statement. The report you cite does indeed show difficulties for IMG's, but does not support this ridiculous claim.

 

[oldpro]

Oldschool is right the match rate (I know this will cause a argument ) is closer to 70 to 80% for Caribbean grads when Prematch is added to the official match.
There is no official reporting for Prematch. this is a known fact, Caribbean grads prematch a lot. I will next year.

 

[167649]

1. From AUC: The % of first year residency placements in the US: 81.5%
--- Again, no distinction between US citizens and foreigners, which is a key detail if the discussion here is about where US citizens should go.

2. From Ross: 96% of eligible grads get a US residency. (64% through match, 16.3 % prematch [as noted in your report, this is a significant number], 19.5% outside the match)

3. From St. George: 99% of eligible US graduates achieve residency in the US, throughout all 50 states.

Only St. George's data separates the US grads from the others, and I think it would be a valid assumption that non US citizens bring the numbers down due to visas, etc. An assumption though, and not intended to be any offense to non-US citizens.

So, I would like to reaffirm that the statement "50% can't match anywhere" is still a totally invalid statement. The report you cite does indeed show difficulties for IMG's, but does not support this ridiculous claim.

Okay, I see your point. I am sure that the poster who quoted the 50% thing was referring to these data, but I agree it doesn't support the 50% claim specific to US citizens who are FMG's. However, it is quite clear that a US bias exists against FMG's in the match, if it says anything.

One thing I would like to point out about the data you presented though, is that it states "eligible grads" which is unclear. At the US schools, numbers for attrition, USMLE pass rates for the first try, and match rates are all reported. Attrition is very low in the US, and the other two numbers are almost always in the upper nineties. Although 96% of eligible graduates from Ross match, what is the attrition/pass rate/USMLE pass rate? I know that the USMLE pass rate is somewhat lower for US students in the carrib, and so self-selection is going to be a bigger factor regarding US Carrib students who match. There is no doubt that when an individual school reports data like this (as it does with USNews) it is going to present it in a way that looks good for the school. So the "eligible grads" can be misleading, I am skeptical of it's context. It speaks nothing of how may US students who took the carrib route, ended up succesfully matching in the end.

In any case, please don't think I am saying the quality of the education is any different than what you find in the states. All I am saying is that, with a US acceptance to any program in hand, and a carribean acceptance in hand, I think in the long run it is more advantageous for a US student to take the US accetance. Not necessarily because the quality is any different, but because they can avoid the bias in the match. With the same board scores, you can get a better placement and have an easier time doing it. And residency is much more important than where you went to medical school, US or Carribean or wherever. So in the long run, if a US student has a US acceptance, that's a better option for them.

 

[IMbound]

One thing I would like to point out about the data you presented though, is that it states "eligible grads" which is unclear. At the US schools, numbers for attrition, USMLE pass rates for the first try, and match rates are all reported. Attrition is very low in the US, and the other two numbers are almost always in the upper nineties. Although 96% of eligible graduates from Ross match, what is the attrition/pass rate/USMLE pass rate? I know that the USMLE pass rate is somewhat lower for US students in the carrib, and so self-selection is going to be a bigger factor regarding US Carrib students who match. There is no doubt that when an individual school reports data like this (as it does with USNews) it is going to present it in a way that looks good for the school. So the "eligible grads" can be misleading, I am skeptical of it's context. It speaks nothing of how may US students who took the carrib route, ended up succesfully matching in the end.

In any case, please don't think I am saying the quality of the education is any different than what you find in the states. All I am saying is that, with a US acceptance to any program in hand, and a carribean acceptance in hand, I think in the long run it is more advantageous for a US student to take the US accetance. Not necessarily because the quality is any different, but because they can avoid the bias in the match. With the same board scores, you can get a better placement and have an easier time doing it. And residency is much more important than where you went to medical school, US or Carribean or wherever. So in the long run, if a US student has a US acceptance, that's a better option for them.

The first time test takers pass rate for SGU has ranged from 91-93% in the last few years. That is published on the SGU website, this info is also available for the Ross and AUC websites. It is NO QUESTION that most US grads from these carib schools will match into residencies in the US.

For the second part of that post, OF COURSE if you have acceptance to a US school you would go. Nobody goes to a carib school who as already been accepted at US schools....DUHHHHH!!! But there are many who don't get accepted who still will make excellent MDs given the drive they have. As is well known we have a very large shortage of MDs in most fields so you know what...we as a society need the FMGs.......

 

[167649]

The first time test takers pass rate for SGU has ranged from 91-93% in the last few years. That is published on the SGU website, this info is also available for the Ross and AUC websites. It is NO QUESTION that most US grads from these carib schools will match into residencies in the US.

You have failed to address all three primary arguments I made in the post you quoted:

1) "US Grads" is an unclear term and skews the context of the information
2) A school's claim on it's website is not a credible source of data, not necessarily false but presented in whatever context they like
3) Self-selection is an issue I brought up that you did not address with either the USMLE pass rate or graduation rate (or match rate)

As is well known we have a very large shortage of MDs in most fields so you know what...

True, but the rate-limiting factor in this equation is not the number of MS graduates, it is the number of US residency positions available, which is not projected to increase any time soon.

Please, if someone has credible, objective data which clearly indicates the percentage of US students who matriculate at Carribean schools who end up matching somewhere, I would like to see it. I doubt it exists and so this is just a back and forth thread, so I'm out...

 

[oldpro]

You have failed to address all three primary arguments I made in the post you quoted:

1) "US Grads" is an unclear term and skews the context of the information
2) A school's claim on it's website is not a credible source of data, not necessarily false but presented in whatever context they like
3) Self-selection is an issue I brought up that you did not address with either the USMLE pass rate or graduation rate (or match rate)



True, but the rate-limiting factor in this equation is not the number of MS graduates, it is the number of US residency positions available, which is not projected to increase any time soon.

Please, if someone has credible, objective data which clearly indicates the percentage of US students who matriculate at Carribean schools who end up matching somewhere, I would like to see it. I doubt it exists and so this is just a back and forth thread, so I'm out...

This has been argued over and over before you and I were here to argue

Caribbean Grads can Prematch, this is not part of the NMRP stats since it is outside the match, this is done at least 20% of the time ( from what I know 30% of the time) SO the official match is 50% plus the 20 to 30 % equals

70 to 80% Are there any studies on this? No not at this time, The NRMP is not going to spend time and money tracking those not registered.
argue all you want but this is reality and there are thousands of FMG grads out there.

Also you may not understand this it seems

FMG and IMG is used interchangeable, To clarify this it has been published that FMG is a US citizen studying medicine offshore.

But since it gets confused the poster used "US grads" yes not precise

should of said US Caribbean Students or such. But I see you as splitting hairs over nothing.

If you do not like Caribbean schools then do not attend

 

[oldschool79]

And residency is much more important than where you went to medical school, US or Carribean or wherever.

100% agree.

The "eligible" word, I agree, distorts the data somewhat. I'm assuming, that similar to USMLE's, some students are not allowed to participate without meeting some school requirement first. However, I would not be surprised at all to read somewhere that some US schools do the same thing, but this I do not know. Also, I'm thinking its safe to assume that since most US schools report their own data as well, that they also present the data in the manner which reflects best upon them.

As far as US schools being a better choice if an option, I would agree that in many cases this is true. I'm sure though, that there are those who actually do have a compelling reason to actually choose Carib besides plain old academic performance. Not many though.

I think that in a lot of cases, the choice comes down to being between a few more years of undergrad/grad work to improve a US application, versus immediate entry into the Carib. This is a personal choice, I think, and no one can really tell anyone else how valuable their time is. For others, it may be a financial reason (depending on state). In any case, it would be a very serious decision, requiring a lot of reflection.

And as far as this back and forth, I don't mind this at all, a little debate is a very healthy thing if carried on in a productive way. That report you posted I had not previously seen, thanks for putting that up. Backed up with some actual research differences in opinion can be very productive and informative, and as far as I can figure that is the entire purpose of the forum.

 

[oldschool79]

I hadn't realized there was a difference between FMG and IMG. Thanks, I was beginning to wonder what was up with that.

However, the "US grads" is how the source reported the numbers. As far as why they reported it that way, I really don't know, but I would assume they meant FMGs.

 

[oldpro]

I hadn't realized there was a difference between FMG and IMG. Thanks, I was beginning to wonder what was up with that.

However, the "US grads" is how the source reported the numbers. As far as why they reported it that way, I really don't know, but I would assume they meant FMGs.

I understand 100% there is this mentality out there among some premeds and others that caribbean is bad no matter what and they believe the untrue crap passed around and posted by some others, just myths and outright lies at times.

The truth is there is some risk but more on the student then the whole process.

 

[superoxide]

FMG and IMG is used interchangeable, To clarify this it has been published that FMG is a US citizen studying medicine offshore

I think it's the other way around:

IMG: U.S Citizen/PR who is studying outside of the U.S, who eventually wants to practice in the U.S

FMG: Non U.S Citizen/Non PR who is studying outside of the U.S, who eventually wants to practice in the U.S

 

[Vermian]

I would have to say that somehow we always seem to be rehashing the same argument with the same players - no matter who starts the question.

The Caribbean is an alternative. For some not a good alternative, but one that works. I disagree that the students are inferior, but I am biased - as I am an AUC graduate and actually know what people got as residencies coming out of there. I am currently a PGY5 in neurosurgery, so I fail to see how we are not as competent as US students. However, I do agree the path requires a little more effort at times.

Still, no one cares now where I went to medical school, and it never comes up. I would gladly tell anyone should it become part of the conversation.

As for JaggerPlate's lack of experience finding a Caribbean graduate who went into plastics - one of my intern year chief's went on to do a plastics fellowship and then a MOHs fellowship - he graduated from Ross.

It is so interesting how people spend so much time beating down other people to make themselves feel good on this forum. I hope you all really enjoy it when it happens to you when - and if - you actually make it to your residency. At that time, most of you will just be little interns trying to survive - not really knowing or caring where your senior levels, staff, or consultants went to school - just more concerned with trying to catch-up to their level of knowledge.

Good luck.

 

[oldpro]

I would have to say that somehow we always seem to be rehashing the same argument with the same players - no matter who starts the question.

The Caribbean is an alternative. For some not a good alternative, but one that works. I disagree that the students are inferior, but I am biases - as I am an AUC graduate and actually know what people got as residencies coming out of there. I am currently a PGY5 in neurosurgery, so I fail to see how we are not as competent as US students. However, I do agree the path requires a little more effort at times.

Still, no one cares now where I went to medical school, and it never comes up. I would gladly tell anyone should it become part of the conversation.

As for JaggerPlate's lack of experience finding a Caribbean graduate who went into plastics - one of my intern year chief's went on to do a plastics fellowship and then a MOHs fellowship - he graduated from Ross.

It is so interesting how people spend so much time beating down other people to make themselves feel good on this forum. I hope you all really enjoy it when it happens to you when - and if - you actually make it to your residency. At that time, most of you will just be little interns trying to survive - not really knowing or caring where your senior levels, staff, or consultants went to school - just more concerned with trying to catch-up to their level of knowledge.

Good luck.

I just about agree 100%

The problem is if we do not post reality and the plain truth that the Caribbean is not that bad of a path, these negative posters get away with those who wll believe them and the others who come here, including reporters for the media will read the negative and think its 100% true.

It has happened in the past with several news stories.

I say Successful Caribbean students need to post the voice here and tell the truth, its worth the risk.