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A lot of people doubt OMM, and I just wanted to post my experience with an osteopath I'm seeing.

My family physician (MD), told me my posture is horrible, and that I needed to see a specialist about it. After discussing chiropractors and orthopedists, we decided I should give a DO a try.. One that actually does OMM obviously.

I called my state DO medical society, and they referred me a DO that only does OMM. He has an FM/EM background, but no longer practices in those fields.

Within 5 minutes of examining me, he found that my T3 vertebrae was out of alignment. He did some sort of adjustment, it popped, and immediately I could tell a difference.

He's also certified in cranial OMM. Frankly, before this experience, I thought cranial was BS. He had my lie down, with his hand under my back at my T3, and started rubbing my head. After awhile he says, "So... When you were 15, something traumatic happened to you." This is true, I was in a car accident. I tell him this and he says, "No, this was emotional.." Well, without going into details, yes, something emotionally traumatic DID happen to me when I was 15..

This physician didn't know me at all and doesn't know anyone who knows me. I asked him how in the world he could possible know something happened to me 17 years ago, and he said "practice."

Anyway, I left that visit standing up straight. Two weeks later, I am still standing up straight. Yes, the first two days after treatment were a bit painful... but it was worth it.

I admit there could be a psychological component to this on my part, but whatever.. OMM is working for me.
 

JaggerPlate

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The guy touched your head and told you 17 years ago you experienced emotional trauma???




Jesus Christ.
 

skiddoc

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MLT2MT2DO

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He's also certified in cranial OMM. Frankly, before this experience, I thought cranial was BS. He had my lie down, with his hand under my back at my T3, and started rubbing my head. After awhile he says, "So... When you were 15, something traumatic happened to you." This is true, I was in a car accident. I tell him this and he says, "No, this was emotional.." Well, without going into details, yes, something emotionally traumatic DID happen to me when I was 15..

This physician didn't know me at all and doesn't know anyone who knows me. I asked him how in the world he could possible know something happened to me 17 years ago, and he said "practice."

WTF:cool:
 
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The guy touched your head and told you 17 years ago you experienced emotional trauma???




Jesus Christ.
That's what I thought... I told my mom about this, and she (a fundamentalist Christian) goes all in to soothsayers and yada yada.

I've actually read online people calling cranial OMM withcraft (jokingly of course). He said cranial allows them to understand what the body is "saying"...

I admit I still think it's crazy, but whatever.. he was right.
 

TexasTriathlete

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It isn't some weird nonsense. Its just manual therapy. PTs and athletic trainers have been doing this sort of thing since the beginning of their profession. Some DCs do a lot of it too.

The difference is that we couple it with the education and training of a physician. Meaning that we can treat what can be treated, but we can also order and interpret labs, imaging studies, etc., as well as refer to another service if the patient needs it.

Doing OMM is not the hard part, although some are certainly better at it than others. For example, everyone is better than me. But the real hard part is knowing when to do it, when not to do it, why you're doing what you're doing, and when to order studies and/or refer to another service.
 

JaggerPlate

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That's what I thought... I told my mom about this, and she (a fundamentalist Christian) goes all in to soothsayers and yada yada.

I've actually read online people calling cranial OMM withcraft (jokingly of course). He said cranial allows them to understand what the body is "saying"...

I admit I still think it's crazy, but whatever.. he was right.
Yeah he was 'right,' just in the same way that 'Crossing Over,' John Edwards guy is right.

It's pretty lame in my book. I'm glad the guy was able to medically diagnose and fix your posture, but frankly, I think this little trick isn't anything new, I think his 'practice' involves feeling a physical trauma and making a profound, but not hard connection (i.e. you had a physical trauma during your teens ... let me say emotional trauma and even if you say WTF I can go ... oh oh it must be from the accident), and getting you to come back for the next 2 years.

Normally I applaud people making bank in medicine by thinking outside the box, but this just seems so shady to me, and I wouldn't get caught up by this.
 

JaggerPlate

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It isn't some weird nonsense. Its just manual therapy. PTs and athletic trainers have been doing this sort of thing since the beginning of their profession. Some DCs do a lot of it too.

The difference is that we couple it with the education and training of a physician. Meaning that we can treat what can be treated, but we can also order and interpret labs, imaging studies, etc., as well as refer to another service if the patient needs it.

Doing OMM is not the hard part, although some are certainly better at it than others. For example, everyone is better than me. But the real hard part is knowing when to do it, when not to do it, why you're doing what you're doing, and when to order studies and/or refer to another service.
OMM in and of itself isn't nonsense ... it's rad. I even think certain aspects of osteopathy applied to the head are legit ... but touching someone's spine and saying 'when you were 15 you were emotionally scarred' is blatant BS.
 
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It isn't some weird nonsense. Its just manual therapy. PTs and athletic trainers have been doing this sort of thing since the beginning of their profession. Some DCs do a lot of it too.

The difference is that we couple it with the education and training of a physician. Meaning that we can treat what can be treated, but we can also order and interpret labs, imaging studies, etc., as well as refer to another service if the patient needs it.

Doing OMM is not the hard part, although some are certainly better at it than others. For example, everyone is better than me. But the real hard part is knowing when to do it, when not to do it, why you're doing what you're doing, and when to order studies and/or refer to another service.
That being said though, Jaggerplate's point makes sense.. I mean seriously, how can you "read" the body that way. Do they really teach that in cranial OMM?
 

skiddoc

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IMO, cranial is like phrenology...trying to read someone's personality by the shape of their head. Although you might see some patterns, mostly it's crock.
 

JaggerPlate

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That being said though, Jaggerplate's point makes sense.. I mean seriously, how can you "read" the body that way. Do they really teach that in cranial OMM?
I'm sorry, but after making this comment ... I don't believe your experience was genuine and I think you're looking to point out some of the more zealous aspects of cranial osteopathy.
 
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I'm sorry, but after making this comment ... I don't believe your experience was genuine and I think you're looking to point out some of the more zealous aspects of cranial osteopathy.
No, I'm not, and I'm not a troll. God.

Believe what you want.. But I came in here saying OMM works, and yes, that experience was genuine.

I am genuinely curious as to whether Osteopaths are actually taught to read the body in this way.

God..
 

MLT2MT2DO

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I am genuinely curious as to whether Osteopaths are actually taught to read the body in this way.

I'm fairly sure they don't teach these methods of "feeling" the body this way. Did you have any counseling when you were 15? It was probably in your medical records.

Not only can he feel emotional trauma but he can pinpoint it down to a year...that there is a miracle or something...
 

JaggerPlate

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Id have a hard time imagining an actual physician saying something like that, but you never know. There are some wackos out there.
Dude, the guys who seriously do straight cranial are 'out there' to say the least. I know of one guy who does it in LA, and he's like one step away from equating cranial to the force and wearing a Jedi robe to work (I just realized how awesome that would be to walk into a patient room dressed head to toe as a Jedi and introduce yourself as a doctor).

The best part ... the dude makes absolute bank. He charges over $200 (cash only) an hour, and like close to $500 for an initial consult. Waiting list ... no joke.
 

JaggerPlate

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No, I'm not, and I'm not a troll. God.

Believe what you want.. But I came in here saying OMM works, and yes, that experience was genuine.

I am genuinely curious as to whether Osteopaths are actually taught to read the body in this way.

God..
Listen, I'm not trying to downplay something that is working for you ... that's the opposite of what I'm trying to do actually.

Let's just assume I'm wrong and you are a legit patient, simply trying to explain your experience.

I take issue with it for two reasons:

1. Everyone in this thread is a pre-DO student who wants to work hard, go to medical school, and come out as a physician. Very, very few people here want their blood, sweat, and tears associated with a guy who feels your spine and diagnosis emotional trauma from 17 years ago.

I think most people in this thread are excited about learning OMM as a therapy and seeing what it has to offer, but you have to admit ... this is out there, and makes DOs look a bit odd. No one here wants that.

2. Because this is out there and odd ... I don't want you to give your hard earned cash to someone who has manipulated you emotionally and is selling you snake oil. That's no good ... and it has the potential to do more harm than good in the end.

Just my $.02
 
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In the past couple of weeks I've noticed a lot of the DO students in this forum complaining that OMM is a load of BS and they're upset that they have to learn it - which I find frustrating, because they probably don't belong in a DO school if they have so many issues with one of the main philosophies of said school they chose, but that's another conversation for another day.

Point being, I'm glad someone is is discussing their positive experiences with OMM, even if their was some ridiculous psychic reading associated with it that had no relevance to the treatment he gave. ha.
 

sylvanthus

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Christina-

Many of us that complain about OMM really did try and give it a shot and we initially believed it could be a good tool to use in our practice. But, after experiencing it for the past year, have dismissed the majority of what is taught. What is wrong with that? Plus, you are not in medical school yet, so quite frankly your opinion regarding OMM is not something I will be taking seriously.
 

elftown

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Christina-

Many of us that complain about OMM really did try and give it a shot and we initially believed it could be a good tool to use in our practice. But, after experiencing it for the past year, have dismissed the majority of what is taught. What is wrong with that? Plus, you are not in medical school yet, so quite frankly your opinion regarding OMM is not something I will be taking seriously.
As I'm sure she'll tell you, christina30 has done research in OMM.
 

sylvanthus

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Take a good look at some of the "research" in OMM out there and then get back to me.
 
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and you're not a licensed physician yet, so what?
taking a class in it doesn't make you an expert in whether or not it works, either. i can nitpick and be insulting, too.

there are a lot of patients out there that've been helped by OMM, so for you to dismiss it completely is just silly.
 

elftown

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Take a good look at some of the "research" in OMM out there and then get back to me.
Me? Her? Just thought I'd let you know that she does in fact have experience with OMM, probably more in depth than most DO students (since it seems like a lot of them don't care at all).

What does all the other research matter? It doesn't.

Personally, I'm excited to learn OMM, just like you probably were. I hope that I don't lose interest as a medical student, but only time will tell.
 

JaggerPlate

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Take a good look at some of the "research" in OMM out there and then get back to me.
I've seen one study in the NEJM that was quite compelling, and another recently conducted by the American Academy of OB/GYN that was quite good as well. Both said OMM was effective for the issues they were testing.

It's been studied on a bigger scale than what's published in JAOA. Furthermore, OMM and physical medicine in general isn't a huge, hot research topic. It never surprises me when I don't see OMM studies on the cover of scientific ivory towers. However, it always does surprise me when people say ... ehh, it's no good because there is no research. Then when research is presented they say that the source isn't good.

I understand the issues when the methods contain some serious flaws, but many studies don't, and are pretty good (especially the two I listed).

HOWEVER ...

You're right. There isn't anything wrong with going into school excited and open-minded to OMM and then, after trying it, discovering it isn't your thing. I understand that it takes lots of practice and time and that med students are busy enough as is PLUS some of the zealous OMM gurus can be a bit frustrating.
 

JaggerPlate

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Personally, I'm excited to learn OMM, just like you probably were. I hope that I don't lose interest as a medical student, but only time will tell.
Same.

And Christina ... what is your background with OMM??
 
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Same.

And Christina ... what is your background with OMM??
Aside from having several family members that benefitted from OMM in the past that lead me to look a lot into it, I did some work at NYCOM over the past year that allowed me to get involved in a research project studying OMM and its effects on certain neurological disorders - I don't want to get to into it on the forum, I don't want the wrong person to see me writing about it on the internet. :D
 

JaggerPlate

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Aside from having several family members that benefitted from OMM in the past that lead me to look a lot into it, I did some work at NYCOM over the past year that allowed me to get involved in a research project studying OMM and its effects on certain neurological disorders - I don't want to get to into it on the forum, I don't want the wrong person to see me writing about it on the internet. :D
Is it possible to read the study somewhere??
 

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The study isn't finished, I don't think - this was just a few months ago, it's still ongoing, and I'm not involved in it anymore. But I do know for awhile they were performing OMM on mice, which just seemed silly and outright hilarious.
Wow, thats cool.. OMM on MICE??? !!:eek:
 

JaggerPlate

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The study isn't finished, I don't think - this was just a few months ago, it's still ongoing, and I'm not involved in it anymore. But I do know for awhile they were performing OMM on mice, which just seemed silly and outright hilarious.
Hahaha, was this part of your study???

That one is a little beyond me too. I've seen studies where they messed with cranial stuff on dogs, but not mice.
 

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This probably isn't the place for a debate, but I do want to say something. As a practicing chiropractor who is returning to DO school, I will agree that there is a lot of voo-doo that is used out there. That doesn't mean that the rest of the manipulative therapies are bogus.

As far as research, there is a lot more research on manipulative therapy than you might realize. Try searching JMPT, they are a fairly reputable source. Also, about the research, the quantity of research for something like manual medicine will always be much less than that for a proprietary pharmaceutical; mostly because with drug research a specific company stands to profit. So, they are willing to front the (enormous) cost of research. With manual therapies, there is no one institution that stands to profit, so finding funding is very difficult. I was involved with some research while in school, and funding is ridiculously hard to come by.

As far as mice go, the research I was involved with dealt with rats (and unfortunately did not involve any cranial massages....maybe next time), but there are very precise methods of using instrument assisted adjusting to control for the amount and angle of force used. Pretty impressive stuff, if you get into it. Here is a link to an abstract for a couple of the articles.


Sooooo, while there is a lot of questionable practice (I don't know enough about OMM cranial adjusting to include it or not) that is not the same as saying that manipulative therapies have no value. Also, to say that there is no research is fairly ignorant. While being a DO student does expose you to this, that is also not the same as having experienced it in practice for years and having treated thousands of patients successfully. If somebody personally doesn't want to include it in their practice, that is totally fine. But, to condemn the entire field of manual therapy because of a negative impression received while a student seems a bit presumptuous.
 

Superman DO

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I have a few customers at work that swear by OMM. One of them said that he received some adjustment, and it was able to clear up his back problem that he had retained for years. Another customer told me a story that she was referred to the Osteopathic Center for Children here in San Diego, and they were able to allow her child to hear again using manipulation after she had become deaf. I know this is totally hearsay, but this is my only experience with OMM besides just theory. I wish I could have some performed on me, but I am sure I will get plenty of amature work next school year. =)
 

Superman DO

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lolwut? Can it cure HIV/AIDS too?
I'm just stating the stories that have been told to me. . . .but just because you are deaf, doesn't mean it cannot be fixed; it depends on what is wrong with the ear.
 

JaggerPlate

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The Osteopathic Center for Children in SD is Viola Frymann's practice. She's one of the more controversial cranial practitioners of our time. Got in trouble a few times for treating sick kids with cranial, making things worse, etc.
 

Superman DO

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Well that is what I get for not doing my research haha. . .but I am on cruise control right now until graduation, sooo forgive me.
 

pyropig

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I'm just stating the stories that have been told to me. . . .but just because you are deaf, doesn't mean it cannot be fixed; it depends on what is wrong with the ear.
Come on now man, I wouldn't have believed that if someone told me. I work at pharmacy and my patients tell me stories of spaceships and meetings with the Pope all of the time, I put the deaf story in that category. A kid never cured by ANY of the docs that had seen him in his life, but a tiny manipulation and by god deafness cured? That's WAY too far fetched for me to even entertain as being fact. I agree that OMM can be valuable for a variety of things, but stories like the deaf kid being healed, stories of diabetes and hypertension suddenly vanishing for good by a simple manipulation is what really discredits the practice and awards it all the eye rolls it gets from people.
 

schussboarder

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Honesty I went into school quite impartial to OMM--just basically looking to practice medicine, regardless of the route it took. In all of the courses that I have taken I have been able to decide for myself what forms of OMM are useful and what are not, and I believe completely that this is all based on the person. Personally there are some manipulations and therapies that I would never use in my life (i.e. rib treatments, cranial.) because honestly I do not find them useful or practical--but this does not mean they don't work. On the other hand, there is no doubt in my mind that there is a place to treat problems with the sacrum, pelvis, or spine...I have seen (and experienced during OMM lab) their benifits.

Before you criticize give it a chance.
 

JaggerPlate

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^^

I'm really excited to start learning it. I'll probably regret this and it will sound so noobish in a few months ... but really pumped for OMM and Anatomy!
 

rddoms

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OMM was fun for the majority of 1st year, but I loved anatomy! I rarely went to class, but I would be in the anatomy lab even if I wasn't required to be there.
 
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Dude, the guys who seriously do straight cranial are 'out there' to say the least. I know of one guy who does it in LA, and he's like one step away from equating cranial to the force and wearing a Jedi robe to work (I just realized how awesome that would be to walk into a patient room dressed head to toe as a Jedi and introduce yourself as a doctor).

The best part ... the dude makes absolute bank. He charges over $200 (cash only) an hour, and like close to $500 for an initial consult. Waiting list ... no joke.
Well you have to consider the patient base in L.A. There's not exactly a shortage of people with lots of money willing to hand to over to someone with a completely loony idea. I'm not sure if this is because L.A. is filled with crazy people or simply because the tail ends of the distribution are fatter since there are just so many people.

Even without being "out there," I imagine you could do good business with an OMM only practice among the granola crunching, Smart Car driving, yoga mat carrying, Whole Foods shopping population in say Santa Monica.

But seriously, I dig the Jedi robes idea. I think I'll use that, plus a light show and a few magic tricks and I'll be raking in the patients.

As for the OP, troll or not, I could pretty much lay my hands on anyone and say "you've had emotional trauma when you were 15." Its called high school. I don't know anyone who emerged unscathed.
 
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well you have to consider the patient base in l.a. There's not exactly a shortage of people with lots of money willing to hand to over to someone with a completely loony idea. I'm not sure if this is because l.a. Is filled with crazy people or simply because the tail ends of the distribution are fatter since there are just so many people.

Even without being "out there," i imagine you could do good business with an omm only practice among the granola crunching, smart car driving, yoga mat carrying, whole foods shopping population in say santa monica.

But seriously, i dig the jedi robes idea. I think i'll use that, plus a light show and a few magic tricks and i'll be raking in the patients.

As for the op, troll or not, i could pretty much lay my hands on anyone and say "you've had emotional trauma when you were 15." its called high school. I don't know anyone who emerged unscathed.
lol
 

JaggerPlate

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Well you have to consider the patient base in L.A. There's not exactly a shortage of people with lots of money willing to hand to over to someone with a completely loony idea. I'm not sure if this is because L.A. is filled with crazy people or simply because the tail ends of the distribution are fatter since there are just so many people.
Los Angeles is a unique and, frankly, terrible beast ... and you're right about the occupants. However, from what I've seen, the attitudes of straight cranial people and their ability to run a solid business isn't limited to places like LA.

Even without being "out there," I imagine you could do good business with an OMM only practice among the granola crunching, Smart Car driving, yoga mat carrying, Whole Foods shopping population in say Santa Monica.
Yup.

But seriously, I dig the Jedi robes idea. I think I'll use that, plus a light show and a few magic tricks and I'll be raking in the patients.
So epic. I'd never go to another doctor in my life.

As for the OP, troll or not, I could pretty much lay my hands on anyone and say "you've had emotional trauma when you were 15." Its called high school. I don't know anyone who emerged unscathed.
Hahahah