On the topic of calling NPs 'doctor'

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Good post!

Just wanted to comment on the above referenced part.

Do you really think 5 years is enough?

I think 10 years should be the minimum, and collaboration with on site physicians is key

Well I say 5 years minimum because there are some nurses particularly in high acute/trauma areas (military, inner city) that can really attain experience fast. However, I agree that 10 years should be the recommended protocol prior to NP school. In addition, I would to see more clinical hours as well as more differential diagnosis and pharmokinetics/dynamics classes in the curriculum. Ethics, cultural health, policy and research are all well in good in my BSN program (even though I am getting sick of them) but NP programs should be focusing on a hand-on "residency" rather than didactic fluff.

Just my thoughts as I see many direct-entry MSN students with BAs and new RN licenses going straight to NP school. Luckily almost all CRNA schools require/recommend ICU/ER or acute experience before even applying.

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...Luckily almost all CRNA schools require/recommend ICU/ER or acute experience before even applying.

I think it's only three years.
And I feel the same for them (as NPs)
Supervision should be required for best pt outcomes.
 
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I'd personally be horrified if a seasoned RN couldn't school a 3rd year medical student.

It was just an example I have seen RNs suggest or catch things attendings and residents miss before as well, we are all human. The reference was made because it seems that many on this board do not value a nurse's experience or education. As with any profession, there are dirt bag nurses and on the other spectrum exceptional ones
 
I think it's only three years.
And I feel the same for them (as NPs)
Supervision should be required for best pt outcomes.

It is 3 years usually but I have been told by healthcare recruiters and SRNAs the average is 7-10 since most of the programs are fairly competitive.
 
I think 10 years should be the minimum, and collaboration with on site physicians is key
No way. At least 20 years. It takes a good two decades of giving injections, passing pills, assessing wounds, charting vitals, checking pedal pulses, listening to lung sounds, heart sounds (and pretending like you know what you are hearing), documenting, ambulating, monitoring for pressure ulcers, teaching incentive spirometer use, and hanging D5W before one can even think about becoming an NP. After all, these skills are ESSENTIAL to being, say, a family nurse practitioner.
 
No way. At least 20 years. It takes a good two decades of giving injections, passing pills, assessing wounds, charting vitals, checking pedal pulses, listening to lung sounds, heart sounds (and pretending like you know what you are hearing), documenting, ambulating, monitoring for pressure ulcers, teaching incentive spirometer use, and hanging D5W before one can even think about becoming an NP. After all, these skills are ESSENTIAL to being, say, a family nurse practitioner.

I hope you're kidding and are not a really slow learner. You learn this in school, then just need the practice and experience.
 
No way. At least 20 years. It takes a good two decades of giving injections, passing pills, assessing wounds, charting vitals, checking pedal pulses, listening to lung sounds, heart sounds (and pretending like you know what you are hearing), documenting, ambulating, monitoring for pressure ulcers, teaching incentive spirometer use, and hanging D5W before one can even think about becoming an NP. After all, these skills are ESSENTIAL to being, say, a family nurse practitioner.

Don't bite your tongue too hard that's wedged so far in your cheek...

Mock the post all you want, I have been an RN for just under 20 years, and no way in hell could I practice (medicine) independently...Not even close.

Sure, I could follow algorithms (many do - nps and docs) but I couldn't explain why in most cases...That what MED SCHOOL and RESIDENCY teach.

I strongly discourage my students from doing the direct entry NP...If they want to practice medicine, I advocate PA or med school, after trying nursing on for size.

Yes, there are a place for NPs - It's called a direct supervision/collaboration model.

Guys like Zenman are the exception in advanced practice nursing. Most rush right into NP school, while they are still learning bedside nursing.


The direct entry programs should be done away with...They are $$$$ mills for admin


And the mistake many make is in thinking that those very skills, and a couple of years on a floor/ed, etc, can prepare someone.
 
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Mock the post all you want, I have been an RN for just under 20 years, and no way in hell could I practice (medicine) independently...Not even close.
That's fine. Some people would never be able to step into the NP role even after 40 years of experience. Some people just aren't cut out for it. But just because you couldn't, and many others can't, don't assume that to be the case with everyone. I worked in IT for quite some time, and we always had people that no matter how much training and experience I/we gave them, simply couldn't cut it as engineers. Some could do it with 2 years of experience, some could never do it with 10+. They were PC techs and that is all they will ever be.
And the mistake many make is in thinking that those very skills, and a couple of years on a floor/ed, etc, can prepare someone.
They certainly can prepare someone. I know of NP's with < 6 mos RN experience that run circles around those with 5+ years of RN experience. Explain to me how working med-surg for 10 years prepares someone to be a family practice NP.

Edit: BTW, I do not advocate "independent" NP practice, but the notion that years of floor experience is necessary to be a competent NP is simply not true.
 
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Went back and reread my post on page three...I said ten years experience.
I didn't specify med/surg.
Let me clarify:

Ten years of broad experience, would better prepare someone to 'see patients' (diagnose and treat), all the while being supervised (in some capacity, though I prefer mid levels and docs working side by side, seeing patients, and sharing information in real time)

I have been in health care since 1988, and an RN almost as long. I have done EVERY nursing related skill (including ward clerk, tech, cna, etc) along with many types of nursing and nursing management.
I teach nursing now.

I feel that any RN (despite your example of the tech guy not being able to advance in his field as an example of some people just not 'getting it') can not be ready for solo practice, no matter how smart or wordly. It's not an individual thing. It's a reflection of the lack of preparedness that NP schools give, and the simple fact that many years of RN practice, even in the most intense setting, does not come close to residency, period. (Which is our best model to prepare one to see, treat, and diagnose (safely))

It does seem that we can agree on the solo practice part.

And as far as your anecdotes, I would maintain that the 'NP's with < 6 mos RN experience that run circles around those with 5+ years of RN experience' are just lucky.

What does 'running circles around' mean anyway...please expand
 
Ten years of broad experience, would better prepare someone to 'see patients' (diagnose and treat)...

This is the answer I always get, so I am not surprised. I am looking for specifics, not general statements. Med-surg, ICU, PACU, whatever. Tell me the knowledge/skills you gain as an RN in acute care that are truly relevant to family practice as an NP. ER experience and maybe ICU, you could possibly make a case, but not requiring 10+ years and not in other acute care areas. But I am willing to hear your best shot.

And as far as your anecdotes, I would maintain that the 'NP's with < 6 mos RN experience that run circles around those with 5+ years of RN experience' are just lucky.

Lucky? What does that mean, exactly?

What does 'running circles around' mean anyway...please expand

Meaning they are more competent practitioners. What else would I mean?
 
Went back and reread my post on page three...I said ten years experience.
I didn't specify med/surg.
Let me clarify:

Ten years of broad experience, would better prepare someone to 'see patients' (diagnose and treat), all the while being supervised (in some capacity, though I prefer mid levels and docs working side by side, seeing patients, and sharing information in real time)

I have been in health care since 1988, and an RN almost as long. I have done EVERY nursing related skill (including ward clerk, tech, cna, etc) along with many types of nursing and nursing management.
I teach nursing now.

I feel that any RN (despite your example of the tech guy not being able to advance in his field as an example of some people just not 'getting it') can not be ready for solo practice, no matter how smart or wordly. It's not an individual thing. It's a reflection of the lack of preparedness that NP schools give, and the simple fact that many years of RN practice, even in the most intense setting, does not come close to residency, period. (Which is our best model to prepare one to see, treat, and diagnose (safely))

It does seem that we can agree on the solo practice part.

And as far as your anecdotes, I would maintain that the 'NP's with < 6 mos RN experience that run circles around those with 5+ years of RN experience' are just lucky.

What does 'running circles around' mean anyway...please expand

You teach nursing? You have done everything? Every nursing related skill? Appears you left out many nursing related activities housekeeping, resp therapy, radiology tech, Behavior tech, candy stripe , MD, PA, NP, CRNA, AA
 
Don't bite your tongue too hard that's wedged so far in your cheek...

Mock the post all you want, I have been an RN for just under 20 years, and no way in hell could I practice (medicine) independently...Not even close.

Sure, I could follow algorithms (many do - nps and docs) but I couldn't explain why in most cases...That what MED SCHOOL and RESIDENCY teach.

I strongly discourage my students from doing the direct entry NP...If they want to practice medicine, I advocate PA or med school, after trying nursing on for size.

Yes, there are a place for NPs - It's called a direct supervision/collaboration model.

Guys like Zenman are the exception in advanced practice nursing. Most rush right into NP school, while they are still learning bedside nursing.


The direct entry programs should be done away with...They are $$$$ mills for admin


And the mistake many make is in thinking that those very skills, and a couple of years on a floor/ed, etc, can prepare someone.

I could not agree more.

Noctors practicing independently results in generally undesirable outcomes, such as this:

http://www.yakima-herald.com/storie...-of-pain-troubled-clinic-goes-unchecked/print

http://www.heroin-detox.org/pain_meds.htm
 
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Of couse doctors practicing unsupervised such as Dr Conrad produce such awesome results, anecdote is not evidence.
 
Of couse doctors practicing unsupervised such as Dr Conrad produce such awesome results, anecdote is not evidence.


Who would you trust to treat your mom : a family MD or a noctor (practicing independently ) ?

I think I'll go with option 1.

Thanks for playing.
 
I could not agree more.

Noctors practicing independently results in generally undesirable outcomes...

Who in the recent posts on this thread has advocated full independent practice for NP's, ghost dog?

"1. troll: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."
 
Who in the recent posts on this thread has advocated full independent practice for NP's, ghost dog?

"1. troll: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."

Just because you don't agree with another poster does not make this poster a "troll".

In my post I was stating an agreement with : post #160.

Thanks for playing.

BTW, it's hard to make the argument that posting fact based news stories are inflammatory. Indeed, discussions regarding the Dr. Conrad Murray case all over the MD discussion
forums. Interesting, that.
 
Just because you don't agree with another poster does not make this poster a "troll".

I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I posted the definition of a troll. I welcome discussions with those I don't agree with -- see my see exchanges with Blue Dog, emedpa, et al., for example, who have all shown the ability to have an intelligent conversation. However, those that post anecdotes (I can explain what that word means if you need help) simply to stir people up, are, by definition, trolls.

In my post I was stating an agreement with : post #160.

What exactly did you agree with in the post? I seem to have missed that.

BTW, it's hard to make the argument that posting fact based news stories are inflammatory.

LOL! You seem think that an anecdote, published in a news story, is something other than an anecdote. You want to play that game? Again, if you need help understanding what an anecdote is, I'm glad to help.

On second thought, I'll just help now. Do the actions of Conrad show that all physicians are incompetent?

Your move. Thanks for playing.
 
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FWIW, I'm not a noctor (yet ;) ) and I don't advocate for independent practice but I do live in a state that has it, and while they are very happy to share their point of view and the value of their knowledge/experience if I ask for it, I am expected by my physician colleagues to practice independently. I suppose b/c independent NP practice is a fact of life here and they are just used to it, I have never met a physician that had a problem with it. Most are very enthusiastic supporters of NPs in my experience. In fact, I have several physicians as patients.

I did have a pediatric patient a week or so ago who's mother was a physician. The boy used to be a patient of a MD that left this practice. He got assigned to me as I am the only one in the group accepting new patients. He is not well, having several serious complicated issues and initially his mother was displeased at having been transferred to the care of a NP, and she told me so. My response was that I understood and if she wanted to look for a new physician I'd be happy to send his records, and in the meantime I'd do his exam and fill out the paperwork she needed for his IEP at school so that she would at least not have wasted a trip. At the end of the visit she gave me her card and told me she is always looking for good NPs and if I want to talk to her about a job to give her a call. I don't know if she will transfer her son's care or not, and I won't have hard feelings if she does, but we ended up on a collegial and positive note. And collegial and positive is all I can hope for from any of my interactions with anyone on any given day.

At some point, people do put down their swords and just get along and work together to get the job done. That is where I am now, and I suspect most of you will get here eventually as well.

Best wishes!
 
...I did have a pediatric patient a week or so ago who's mother was a physician. The boy used to be a patient of a MD that left this practice. He got assigned to me as I am the only one in the group accepting new patients. He is not well, having several serious complicated issues and initially his mother was displeased at having been transferred to the care of a NP, and she told me so...

good story...

Just brings to mind 'deceptive' practices of some offices...

I would hope the office let her know she was bringing her son in to see an NP, and given her the choice to see someone else, or obtain a referral.

I dislocated a joint last year, went to the ED to relocate it, then made an appt with my ortho surgeon; imagine my surprise when his PA came in to examine me.

I specifically made the appointment with the Orthopedic Surgeon, not his PA.
I should have been informed when I made the appointment, and given a choice.
I believe that after a major injury like that, a physician should handle the first visit, and some offices don't disclose who you'll see.
 
Major injury? What joint did you dislocate?
 
You teach nursing? You have done everything? Every nursing related skill? Appears you left out many nursing related activities housekeeping, resp therapy, radiology tech, Behavior tech, candy stripe , MD, PA, NP, CRNA, AA

Do you have something substantive to say, or are you just being argumentative?
 
good story...

Just brings to mind 'deceptive' practices of some offices...

I would hope the office let her know she was bringing her son in to see an NP, and given her the choice to see someone else, or obtain a referral.

.

I agree, they should always be crystal clear. Our staff member said that she did tell her clearly when she scheduled, and having heard them all on the phone 100+ times, I believe it. I suspect being a busy person, Dr. Mom simply missed that point until she saw my name and credentials in 8 inch letters on the wall when she walked in, lol. It happens.
 
Chimi, the nursing programme where I teach needs instructors. Interested? They could use some of your sensibilities.
 
"Nurse Practitioner" is indeed a bit cumbersome to say as a formal title, however "doctor" is technically incorrect. Some of my patients make the mistake of calling me doctor, and I no longer correct them as it isn't worth the trouble of the conversation.

That said, I don't have a huge ego, and have no problem with my patients referring to me as "Mrs. Egan", or even simply "Pam".
 
Some of my patients make the mistake of calling me doctor, and I no longer correct them as it isn't worth the trouble of the conversation.

As a medical student people call me doctor all the time, and I make damn sure they know who and what I am. Even though I have spent years in health care, in many capacities, I am no doctor and patients deserve to know that.

NPs are calling themselves doctor in health care settings all the time, and in 5 years, when the X-thousand nurses currently enrolled in random online NP programs graduate no one will know who is what anymore.
 
"Nurse Practitioner" is indeed a bit cumbersome to say as a formal title, however "doctor" is technically incorrect. Some of my patients make the mistake of calling me doctor, and I no longer correct them as it isn't worth the trouble of the conversation.

Not correcting them is a complicit (questionable) act since I highly doubt any profession's ethics code would allow for a person to pass themselves off as something they are not.
 
Not correcting them is a complicit (questionable) act since I highly doubt any profession's ethics code would allow for a person to pass themselves off as something they are not.

I always introduce myself as an NP and most respond by "How are you doc?" I've been called "doc" since I was a nurses' aide. Sometimes you just can't fight it :laugh:
 
I always introduce myself as an NP and most respond by "How are you doc?" I've been called "doc" since I was a nurses' aide. Sometimes you just can't fight it :laugh:

But I bet if some patient mistakenly called you "nurses aide/phlebotomist/rad tech...." you would be keen to correct them. It's just when the patients mistaken you for a doctor that you "simply can't fight all the battles."
 
But I bet if some patient mistakenly called you "nurses aide/phlebotomist/rad tech...." you would be keen to correct them. It's just when the patients mistaken you for a doctor that you "simply can't fight all the battles."

You didn't get it. I'm not going to sit there and continue to go back and forth with them about my title. It's not worth the effort and time if they just don't get it. Being called "doc" is certainly not on my bucketlist.
 
You didn't get it. I'm not going to sit there and continue to go back and forth with them about my title. It's not worth the effort and time if they just don't get it. Being called "doc" is certainly not on my bucketlist.

That isn't the point. The point is that the patient believes you to be something you are not. It is your responsibility as a provider to ensure that the patient understands your position/role because they may be making decisions based at least in part on their interactions with you.
 
But I bet if some patient mistakenly called you "nurses aide/phlebotomist/rad tech...." you would be keen to correct them. It's just when the patients mistaken you for a doctor that you "simply can't fight all the battles."

I worked prehospital nursing (ambo)

I got called EMT and Medic all the time.I never corrected them (most were fellow RNs), even though I am an RN.

Been called orderly for years (in the ER) by pts daily. I could honestly care less.

Also been called doc (happens a lot, guessing cause I'm a guy - though no lab coat here) - I do correct them on that.

I think what Zen is saying, is that it just gets into this whole discussion at the bedside, and his time is better spent doing his job.

There really is no (widespread) conspiracy for RNs to be called doc.

Hell, the Walgreens automated label software puts "Dr." before the (fill in) last name, on the pill vial.

So it says: Dr. Smith, ANP on the vial...
 
But I bet if some patient mistakenly called you "nurses aide/phlebotomist/rad tech...." you would be keen to correct them. It's just when the patients mistaken you for a doctor that you "simply can't fight all the battles."

This is a good point. I do understand that if you introduce yourself as NP or PA and the patient continues to call you doctor, you won't want to correct them each time (that's not very therapeutic and really just obnoxious). I mean, how would it appear if you are constantly interrupting your patient during the 10-15 minutes worth of time with them just to correct them on your title?

That being said, though, if it happened once with referring to an NP or PA as something lower in the medical food chain, the NP or PA probably would correct the patient, just as Pleepl3us said. It's very situation based and hard to determine what actually is going on ultimately, and both parties aren't going to be happy (or the argument will just continue) without more solid evidence/studies going on.

I will say I've never had an NP/PA refer to themselves as doctor around me, but I'm also in a state where they aren't supposed to. And I've never made the mistake of referring to one as "doctor," though since I have some knowledge on the subject, I'm not the average consumer, so to speak. Given this problem/argument/current issue in the field of medicine, however, and given my bad experience in nursing school (which I have since quit - another topic by itself), I am no longer comfortable seeing an NP or PA. The NP and PA profession is a very good addition to the medical environment, and nurses are 100% needed and should 100% be respected. But given the depth (or lack thereof) of knowledge in the nursing field, I'm only comfortable going to a doctor now. Nurses may generally be known as more empathetic than medical doctors, but empathy can't make up for a lack of knowledge. And to say the level of knowledge is equivalent because nurses gain the same knowledge as an MD through clinical experience is just wrong. I do think nurses gain some knowledge that way, and even a lot, but it's not equivalent to an MD's education. Furthermore, they are two different fields with two different focuses. Nursing school is quick to teach that the fields are different, but nursing school also is quick to teach that nurses are equal to the MD in terms of knowledge and should be respected as such. I disagree completely with that line of thinking. And if anything, by asserted or insinuating the equality, the nursing profession has set itself up for scrutiny and intolerance from other medical professions.

I'm not by any means saying that nurses haven't been mistreated in the past or that the profession doesn't deserve respect. As I've said, they DEFINITELY should be respected and are a fully necessary asset to the clinical setting. But that doesn't mean they have earned a title that equates them with an MD. Nurses aren't "lower" than doctors, as people are people. But nurses simply DON'T have the same knowledge as doctors. Anyway, flame me if you will. It honestly won't change my opinion, but constructive criticism is welcome. Healthy communication is the only way problems like this can be resolved. Or even just head in that direction. Assuming there even is a resolution. :eek:
 
... Nursing school is quick to teach that the fields are different, but nursing school also is quick to teach that nurses are equal to the MD in terms of knowledge and should be respected as such...

Been hearing this for years...

I've taught nursing for many years, at CCs and universities.

I would never say this (nor do I believe it), nor have I ever heard anyone say anything remotely close to this to RN students, or amongst themselves.

I don't buy that it's prevalent at all in the nursing schools across this Country.
I doubt it happens near as much as it's claimed to.
 
Unfortunately, I know nurses from 3 different states that went to different schools in the south that have all had the Nurses are equals to Physicians thing told to them. It may not happen in some places, but I do think it does happen more than people think. If it didn't these types of discussions would not take place.
 
That isn't the point. The point is that the patient believes you to be something you are not. It is your responsibility as a provider to ensure that the patient understands your position/role because they may be making decisions based at least in part on their interactions with you.

You're still not getting it. I intoduce myself as an NP. I am not going to hand out literature and spend their time educating them on my role as it will take of all their visit time. I very clearly tell them I'm a NP.
 
I worked prehospital nursing (ambo)

I got called EMT and Medic all the time.I never corrected them (most were fellow RNs), even though I am an RN.

Been called orderly for years (in the ER) by pts daily. I could honestly care less.

Also been called doc (happens a lot, guessing cause I'm a guy - though no lab coat here) - I do correct them on that.

I think what Zen is saying, is that it just gets into this whole discussion at the bedside, and his time is better spent doing his job.

There really is no (widespread) conspiracy for RNs to be called doc.

Hell, the Walgreens automated label software puts "Dr." before the (fill in) last name, on the pill vial.

So it says: Dr. Smith, ANP on the vial...

That's basically it. I'll tell them up front but not wasting my time any further. It's not an issue with me what I'm called. Yes, I'm even listed as "admitting physician" on hospital records and "Dr. Zenman" on scripts. Get those guys to change that before pouncing on me!
 
Been hearing this for years...

I've taught nursing for many years, at CCs and universities.

I would never say this (nor do I believe it), nor have I ever heard anyone say anything remotely close to this to RN students, or amongst themselves.

I don't buy that it's prevalent at all in the nursing schools across this Country.
I doubt it happens near as much as it's claimed to.

My professors said on a daily basis in front of the class that nurses were always correcting doctor's mistakes and catching things before doctors do, but the doctors were the ones who got all the credit for their hard work. They also gave sample multiple choice test questions in class about what the correct response would be if a doctor chewed you as the nurse out, was being rude to you, talking down to you, etc. At the same time, they complained when students informed the faculty that they were unsure of what to study or what they needed to know. Not to mention the professor's power points, emails, and assignment sheets were constantly riddled with spelling and grammar errors (as were the textbooks). And if there were test questions in which a considerable amount of people got wrong due to conflicting information existing in the textbooks, the professors refused to change it, typically claiming we should have been able to figure it out.

I'm not sure how frequently this happens, but I've heard other people saying RN school was pretty brutal like this. I just don't think playing games like that is AT ALL productive. I didn't learn anything. Furthermore, my opinion of nurses now are that they are petty, jealous, and insecure.

I don't for a moment expect that to not get foul responses. My experience was just extremely bad and I felt like the professors were just screwing with me and playing games the entire time. I supposedly had the highest score on the entrance exam and in my interview, the faculty interrupted me in order to say my past experience was irrelevant...so I definitely felt like I stood out and basically served as a target from the start. Other situations (such as with grades) solidified this. And if this was truly an introduction to the field as a whole, I didn't want a damn thing to do with it. *shrugs*
 
I don't buy that it's prevalent at all in the nursing schools across this Country.
I doubt it happens near as much as it's claimed to.

It definitely happens, though I'm sure people can argue about the prevelance rates. It is problematic if it is happening in the classroom because it sets the student up for later problems. It is even more problematic when it happens in the hospital setting because this type of thinking can often lead to medical error. I've seen it happen with what labs should be run, what meds prescribed, when fluids are given, etc. Every profession needs to have a mutual respect for each other, and most of the problems happen when feelings get hurt and/or egos get too big.
 
... Furthermore, my opinion of nurses now are that they are petty, jealous, and insecure...

true, true, and, uhhh, true yet again

It definitely happens, though I'm sure people can argue about the prevelance rates. It is problematic if it is happening in the classroom because it sets the student up for later problems. It is even more problematic when it happens in the hospital setting because this type of thinking can often lead to medical error. I've seen it happen with what labs should be run, what meds prescribed, when fluids are given, etc. Every profession needs to have a mutual respect for each other, and most of the problems happen when feelings get hurt and/or egos get too big.


Agreed.

Of course it's problematic anywhere, especially the classroom..
I don't doubt for a second that it happens too much (one incident would be too much)
Hell, I see all kinds of wacky stuff that my fellow (RN) faculty do to the students (browbeat, public humiliation, yelling at the student before the whole story is clear, and just plain not giving a student any credibility, simply because she is a student)

I strive to be different. I actually listen to them, and take a much more collegial approach to them. It actually works, and I lay the law down when I have to, not just because I can (which is the norm in nursing education)

I use my past 20+ experiences to help the student:

1) keep their pts safe
2) learn from my mistakes
3) not to make life difficult for the medical staff
4) be respectful to everyone inside those four walls

I spend a lot of 1:1 time teaching them how to anticipate what the doc is going to want you to do, not to ask really lame questions of the medical staff(and prepare before you actually call), and that we are all in this together, and we have to communicate with one another, nicely and professionally; And at the end of the day, physicians have a lot more education than RNs do, so respect that, work together, and speak up if you disagree.
 
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My professors said on a daily basis in front of the class that nurses were always correcting doctor's mistakes and catching things before doctors do, but the doctors were the ones who got all the credit for their hard work. They also gave sample multiple choice test questions in class about what the correct response would be if a doctor chewed you as the nurse out, was being rude to you, talking down to you, etc. At the same time, they complained when students informed the faculty that they were unsure of what to study or what they needed to know. Not to mention the professor's power points, emails, and assignment sheets were constantly riddled with spelling and grammar errors (as were the textbooks). And if there were test questions in which a considerable amount of people got wrong due to conflicting information existing in the textbooks, the professors refused to change it, typically claiming we should have been able to figure it out.

Wow, sounds toxic, and a horrible example to set for students.

I correct all my students' grammar errors on written paperwork, I correct mispronunciations of meds, terms, etc (RNs are famous misspellers, and have been known to mispronounce medicines (that they use daily))
Disgusts me to no end.

And an accredited program should be par scoring all exams, and the 'bad' questions will be thrown out.
 
Wow, sounds toxic, and a horrible example to set for students.

I correct all my students' grammar errors on written paperwork, I correct mispronunciations of meds, terms, etc (RNs are famous misspellers, and have been known to mispronounce medicines (that they use daily))
Disgusts me to no end.

And an accredited program should be par scoring all exams, and the 'bad' questions will be thrown out.

The program was accredited. And they made a big deal about how their students always received outstanding reviews from the clinical sites they were sent to, especially in comparison to other schools. But I'm sorry, if they misspell the same amount on the job as they did in class, then it's no wonder doctors always treated them like idiots. And nurses in general, if that truly is how nurses in general are. And honestly, they probably deserved to be treated that way because they ARE idiots.

And it was extremely toxic. I got thrown over the edge when a student sitting next to me made some kind of comment about telling a doctor to shove it being the correct answer. Way too much about that program was more of a popularity contest than a learning environment. And I have so many instances racked up on how the faculty was prejudice against me, all starting with the interview. Already having a BA was looked down upon (and mentioning it in my interview got me the "it does matter" response from the faculty). Being truly honest about my opinion on a philosophy of nursing opinionated paper resulted in the ONLY F for that assignment in the class (and yes, I backed up my opinion, as well as followed the outline to the letter...but I was counted off for writing on certain topics that the outline sent to us mapped out, with the faculty claiming those topics WEREN'T in the outline). And when I requested a different faculty member grade my papers, I was denied as the instructor who graded my first paper "grades fairly." And whenever I asked a question the instructors couldn't answer, their go to response was either "it's outside the nursing process so you don't need to know it" or "we'll get back to you" and they'd never actually get back to me. Maybe they didn't like that I figured out they were full of crap, but they didn't exactly mask the fact or make me NOT want to keep my guard up after the response I got in my interview. It was just one constant, glaring red flag. And I'm sorry, but if that's the attitude nurses have, then they DEFINITELY don't deserve any form of respect or special treatment.

It's not a game to see who's smartest or most deserving. It's about people's health. Faculty with that kind of attitude are risking patients' lives when they focus on nitpicking and screwing people over instead of ACTUALLY teaching and learning the material. Yet again, I really don't want nurses anywhere near me when it comes to my health. And even less so when the nurse is claiming the doctor's role.
 
The program was accredited. And they made a big deal about how their students always received outstanding reviews from the clinical sites they were sent to, especially in comparison to other schools. But I'm sorry, if they misspell the same amount on the job as they did in class, then it's no wonder doctors always treated them like idiots. And nurses in general, if that truly is how nurses in general are. And honestly, they probably deserved to be treated that way because they ARE idiots.

And it was extremely toxic. I got thrown over the edge when a student sitting next to me made some kind of comment about telling a doctor to shove it being the correct answer. Way too much about that program was more of a popularity contest than a learning environment. And I have so many instances racked up on how the faculty was prejudice against me, all starting with the interview. Already having a BA was looked down upon (and mentioning it in my interview got me the "it does matter" response from the faculty). Being truly honest about my opinion on a philosophy of nursing opinionated paper resulted in the ONLY F for that assignment in the class (and yes, I backed up my opinion, as well as followed the outline to the letter...but I was counted off for writing on certain topics that the outline sent to us mapped out, with the faculty claiming those topics WEREN'T in the outline). And when I requested a different faculty member grade my papers, I was denied as the instructor who graded my first paper "grades fairly." And whenever I asked a question the instructors couldn't answer, their go to response was either "it's outside the nursing process so you don't need to know it" or "we'll get back to you" and they'd never actually get back to me. Maybe they didn't like that I figured out they were full of crap, but they didn't exactly mask the fact or make me NOT want to keep my guard up after the response I got in my interview. It was just one constant, glaring red flag. And I'm sorry, but if that's the attitude nurses have, then they DEFINITELY don't deserve any form of respect or special treatment.

It's not a game to see who's smartest or most deserving. It's about people's health. Faculty with that kind of attitude are risking patients' lives when they focus on nitpicking and screwing people over instead of ACTUALLY teaching and learning the material. Yet again, I really don't want nurses anywhere near me when it comes to my health. And even less so when the nurse is claiming the doctor's role.

Sounds like you just went to a crappy school. I have seen glimpses of your experience in my four years at a well known BSN program but never to the degree you have described. Sorry if it led you to have a bad taste in your mouth regarding nursing because I assure you not all schools are like that.

I am the type that likes to know more beyond the nursing process (hence the pre-med) and our case studies and weekly seminars were very helpful in discerning the rationale behind doctor's orders and critical thinking regarding MEDICAL and not always nursing interventions.
 
Sounds like you just went to a crappy school. I have seen glimpses of your experience in my four years at a well known BSN program but never to the degree you have described. Sorry if it led you to have a bad taste in your mouth regarding nursing because I assure you not all schools are like that.

I am the type that likes to know more beyond the nursing process (hence the pre-med) and our case studies and weekly seminars were very helpful in discerning the rationale behind doctor's orders and critical thinking regarding MEDICAL and not always nursing interventions.

Yeah, the school I was at didn't want students to think about medical processes at all. It was as if that was 100% unimportant. But nurses can't survive on their own. They can't do it all on their own. They don't have the knowledge or understanding. And the fact they couldn't answer (and even more so refused to answer) my questions only solidified it. I think the faculty knew I figured out they didn't know what they were talking about. By the end of it all, I just started asking questions I knew they couldn't answer just to piss them off. But by that point I knew I wasn't staying anyway. So if they were going to play games with me, I was going to do the exact same to them, hehe. :smuggrin:
 
Yeah, the school I was at didn't want students to think about medical processes at all. It was as if that was 100% unimportant. But nurses can't survive on their own. They can't do it all on their own. They don't have the knowledge or understanding. And the fact they couldn't answer (and even more so refused to answer) my questions only solidified it. I think the faculty knew I figured out they didn't know what they were talking about. By the end of it all, I just started asking questions I knew they couldn't answer just to piss them off. But by that point I knew I wasn't staying anyway. So if they were going to play games with me, I was going to do the exact same to them, hehe. :smuggrin:

Never argue with an idiot because they will drag you down and beat you with experience. :D When I run into that situation I just let things goes because it isn't worth the effort to try and explain anything because they won't believe you.
 
I don't doubt for a second that it happens too much (one incident would be too much)
Hell, I see all kinds of wacky stuff that my fellow (RN) faculty do to the students (browbeat, public humiliation, yelling at the student before the whole story is clear, and just plain not giving a student any credibility, simply because she is a student)

Uh, yeah. On this, why does that happen to medical students? We're basically told it's a rite of passage, but I was often perplexed by the animosity displayed simply because of my short white coat. It took an exceptional amount of politically correct restraint to smile through several of these incidents. Win more flies with honey..
 
Never argue with an idiot because they will drag you down and beat you with experience. :D When I run into that situation I just let things goes because it isn't worth the effort to try and explain anything because they won't believe you.

sounds like both of you are unhappy with school, life, ......... wondering if anyone is capable of doing things right
 
sounds like both of you are unhappy with school, life, ......... wondering if anyone is capable of doing things right

Being unhappy with the nursing profession does NOT make me unhappy with life. I'm perfectly happy, seeing as I came to my senses and left nursing school before I got any further into it. But nice failed attempt at making a jab at me. Oh, wait, I forgot, no one is capable of doing things right. :rolleyes:
 
Being unhappy with the nursing profession does NOT make me unhappy with life. I'm perfectly happy, seeing as I came to my senses and left nursing school before I got any further into it. But nice failed attempt at making a jab at me. Oh, wait, I forgot, no one is capable of doing things right. :rolleyes:

Are you going to another nursing school or changing careers?
 
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