Online Pharm. D. at Creighton University

[HotnSunnyDr]

Have you read what you wrote? You said that you "cant get around that" when referring to labs. Why would you want to "get around that", unless you are basically a sloth of a student and want the easy way out.

Your very words reveal your intentions. You are looking for the easy way out.

You "don't feel like" living in Nebraska for four years, and you indicate that you "cant get around that" when it comes to labs.

You are the prime example of why these programs are destined to lower the standards of an otherwise dignified profession.

Online technology is only beneficial when used to suppliment regular didactic lecture. It is not meant to replace lecture. Just like how vitamins are not meant to replace food.

Wow....okay, lol. I love how you think you know me.

I said that because people on here think CU's web-based pathway is entirely lectures online and no labs.

There is no substitute for hands on learning. That's the whole point of a LAB vs. LECTURE.

I said you are still required to go to CU's campus to do the labs during the summer.

You cannot get around that. I wouldn't want to regardless.

They would not acredit an online pharmacy program without a lab component, that would make no sense.


I enjoy labs. That's the best part about learning. I am a kinesthetic learner.
I on the other hand, also live in two states and neither of them are Nebraska. I would not like to add a 3rd state for 4 years, especially since I'm getting married soon.

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[HotnSunnyDr]

I get what you are saying...you think more schooling = better salary...and that is just wrong.

You are right though...neither you or I created these salaries. The economy did...which is run by supply and demand. Which backs up what I was saying about the shortage is the reason for the salary increase...not increased schooling (although that contributes to the shortage indirectly). It doesn't matter if they make the PharmD a 15 year program...if there are the same number of pharmacists working now as there would be if there is a 15 year program (with more to compensate for the amount of time people can't be working because they are getting their degree) then the salary would be the same.

It isn't like all the retail companies got together and said "Gee golly...these people went to school for 6 years that sounds like it is worth 100k a year to me". What they say is "We need a pharmacist at this store...we will have to match what other companies are paying their pharmacists if we want to hire any". The other companies are saying the exact same thing. The salary figure is a result of the different companies raising their salaries to attract the pharmacists they need. They could really care less if you spent more time in school or not. They aren't going to pay someone more because they have 2 bachelor degrees over one. It is a real simple concept...


She just took an online crashcourse if she read my post. I wonder if she was required to take economics? It sure doesn't seem like it...

I should charge for quality online education ...

Yes, I am learning alot. How much do u want?

Yea, I took both macro and micro. I took both in class at UMD. I understand where you are coming from.

We are both right.

But what I'm trying to say would the economy make you spend an extra year in school getting trained on your increased responsibilities just to pay you the same thing in a profession that ALREADY has an extreme shortage?

What's the incentive?

It's very simple.

 

[insipid1979]

Yes, I am learning alot. How much do u want?

Yea, I took both macro and micro. I understand where you are coming from.

We are both right.

But what I'm trying to say would the economy make you spend an extra year in school getting trained on your increased responsibilities just to pay you the same thing in a profession that ALREADY has an extreme shortage?

What's the incentive?

It's very simple.

We aren't both right.

Lawmakers/lobbyists whatever...want pharmacists to be more "qualified". They didn't do that so they can justify companies to pay you more. The "economy" didn't require you to go to school for another year.

It isn't like the retail companies decided to require a PharmD. I am sure they would be just happy continuing to have it like it used to be.

You aren't right because if there was no shortage there wouldn't be a high salary...no matter how many years of school you went to because they would just hire someone else who would be willing to work for less...since there would be a large amount of people willing to work and the companies wouldn't have to try to attract pharmacists.

Do you understand now?

 

[YO YO YO]

Wow....okay, lol. I love how you think you know me.

I said that because people on here think CU's web-based pathway is entirely lectures online and no labs.

There is no substitute for hands on learning. That's the whole point of a LAB vs. LECTURE.

I said you are still required to go to CU's campus to do the labs during the summer.

You cannot get around that. I wouldn't want to regardless.

They would not acredit an online pharmacy program without a lab component, that would make no sense.


I enjoy labs. That's the best part about learning. I am a kinesthetic learner.
I on the other hand, also live in two states and neither of them are Nebraska. I would not like to add a 3rd state for 4 years, especially since I'm getting married soon.

Again, with the "I would not like" stuff! My little cousin says things similar to that

You cannot equate the phrases: "You can't get around that" and "I want to pursue that". They are not synonymous, but they are almost polar opposites.

So you are a kinesthetic learner who chooses to sit at home and stare at a computer screen in your pajamas. Well I stand corrected!

 

[HotnSunnyDr]

Again, with the "I would not like" stuff! My little cousin says things similar to that

You cannot equate the phrases: "You can't get around that" and "I want to pursue that". They are not synonymous, but they are almost polar opposites.

So you are a kinesthetic learner who chooses to sit at home and stare at a computer screen in your pajamas. Well I stand corrected!

Well if you must know, I was in a really bad car accident earlier this month and can't move around much. My best friend died and my fiance is in the hospital in FL learning how to walk all over again. Well excuse me if I want to lay around my apartment on a Friday evening talking to you guys about what I found out in my interview and pharmacy in general. It's the only thing I can really look forward to now. I need to let my body rest and heal--Doctor's orders. So I surf the net, watch TV and sleep sometimes. I was forced to drop my orgo 2 lab (which I loved) b/c of my open wounds.

I'm really just happy to be alive. Isn't that enough?

 

[YO YO YO]

Well if you must know, I was in a really bad car accident earlier this month and can't move around much. My best friend died and my fiance is in the hospital in FL learning how to walk all over again. Well excuse me if I want to lay around my apartment on a Friday evening talking to you guys about what I found out in my interview.

I'm really just happy to be alive. Isn't that enough?

So you were in a car accident EARLIER this month, yet you seemed to be fine to go on your interview just 7 days ago.



POSTED BY HotnSunnyDr
Creighton Interview this Friday (4/21)?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any other students interviewing at Creighton this Friday(Apr 21)?
Also, any accepted students want to share interview questions or good prep methods?
Anyone with any info about Creighton admissions is welcome to post as well.
I applied for the web-based by the way

 

[HotnSunnyDr]

So you were in a car accident EARLIER this month, yet you seemed to be fine to go on your interview just 7 days ago.



POSTED BY HotnSunnyDr
Creighton Interview this Friday (4/21)?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any other students interviewing at Creighton this Friday(Apr 21)?
Also, any accepted students want to share interview questions or good prep methods?
Anyone with any info about Creighton admissions is welcome to post as well.
I applied for the web-based by the way

You really think I'm lying? That's really sad. It was a struggle for me to go to my interview. I have whiplash injuries and can't move around much.

Cytogal interviewed with me, she saw my seatbelt burn.

What do you want to see? Pictures? News articles? Funeral arrangments for my friend? Tell me, I'll send it to you.

The seatbelt saved my life. The accident was April 2.

 

[HotnSunnyDr]

.

 

[YO YO YO]

You really think I'm lying? That's really sad. It was a struggle for me to go to my interview. I have whiplash injuries and can't move around much.

Cytogal interviewed with me, she saw my seatbelt burn.

What do you want to see? Pictures? News articles? Funeral arrangments for my friend? Tell me, I'll send it to you.

The seatbelt saved my life. The accident was April 2.

Well I didn't think you were lying (maybe exaggerating), and I am truly sorry for your loss.

But that tragedy has nothing to do with the point of this whole debate, which is that online PharmD programs are bad for the profession.

Regular students will eventually have to deal with the 'online' stigma, regardless of whether they attented a conventional institution, because there is no distinction on the degree indicating an online curriculum.

And it may "suck" that people's perception of online programs is a bad one. But I don't think it is fair that I, or others like me, should have to suffer the consequences of that perception because you, and people like you, are trying to change the entire educational system to fit your convenience and whim.

Pharmacy schools will be able to double their enrollment at minimal expense. All they need is some internet goon to feed the digital video into the server and maintain the website. Voila! more revenue for the school and more pharmacists!

Students will gobble it up, unaware that their very actions are destroying this profession both economically and in reputation.

And right now you are just acting as the variable group in a NACDS run experiment. The campus-based students are the control group.

Sorry, but I hope and pray it doesn't catch on. At least not anytime soon.

 

[spacecowgirl]

I think this is a horrible precedent to set when we are concurrently trying to gain respect for our degrees. The term "distance learning" just makes my skin crawl and is a huge reason as to why I vehemently oppose the changes here at the University of SC COP (and why they won't see one red cent from me after I graduate). While CU's curriculum looks like any other, I find it impossible believe that distance learning is equitable to actual class time. How can meeting for 12 days once/year be the equivalent of a semester-long lab?

How can we demand respect and want to be treated as equals in the medical community when we have programs like this? It completely feeds into the McPharmacy mentality - mass-produce more pharmacists to mass-produce more prescriptions. And I definitely agree with the previous posters - increased supply will lower demand and we can watch our salaries shrink (which BTW has NOTHING to do with the extra year of school).

And what a fantastic way for schools to make huge profits! Something stinks like HICP...Double the revenue with half the resources! No one should pay $100K to get an online degree (and that's not even including the travel expenses for these summer labs!). That alone should cause one to steer clear. For that kind of dough, I want my money's worth. There is a world of difference between taking an intro psych class online and taking therapeutics online. This is your career, not some 3 credit liberal arts requirement!

Yeah, reducing the shortage of pharmacists would improve patient care. But if this results in producing pharmacists of a lower caliber, that care will obviously suffer. I've seen the beginning stages of distance learning implementation at SCCOP and it scares and disappoints me. At least they spend a good amount of time in class, like the UF program. I find that easier to swallow than what CU is doing.

I have sacrificed a lot to get where I am, and I don't want that undermined by programs like this. Maybe I'm an old fogey afraid of change, but having completed my didactic work, I can't imagine having done it without the help of and interaction with my professors and classmates.

 

[YO YO YO]

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[YO YO YO]

Thank God for people like you spacecowgirl!

I was starting to feel like the bad guy here.

 

[insipid1979]

Thank God for people like you spacecowgirl!

I was starting to feel like the bad guy here.

I agree 100% with you.

But you won't be able to see this since you have me on ignore

 

[YO YO YO]

I agree 100% with you.

But you won't be able to see this since you have me on ignore

I took you off ignore, wiseguy!

Your economics lesson impressed me.

Now you can insult my posts freely!

 

[insipid1979]

I took you off ignore, wiseguy!

Your economics lesson impressed me.

Now you can insult my posts freely!

I'm telling you. I should charge money for my online lessons

It is probably the same quality education as half of these online universities...especiall the "for-profit" ones. (scarey isn't it?)

I can't believe that a profession that wants to go in a direction that requires so much interaction with other people...they would let you take courses online. It just doesn't make sense to me. You will never see online medical or dental schools because their accrediting boards would never approve something like that. Sometimes I think that the pharmacy accrediting board (ACPE or whatever) is a joke...especially after reading about that weekend pharmacy school

 

[YO YO YO]

I'm telling you. I should charge money for my online lessons

It is probably the same quality education as half of these online universities...especiall the "for-profit" ones. (scarey isn't it?)

I can't believe that a profession that wants to go in a direction that requires so much interaction with other people...they would let you take courses online. It just doesn't make sense to me. You will never see online medical or dental schools because their accrediting boards would never approve something like that. Sometimes I think that the pharmacy accrediting board (ACPE or whatever) is a joke...especially after reading about that weekend pharmacy school

Every night I will pray....please God let this online experiment fail....please!!!

 

[spacecowgirl]

I wonder if University of Phoenix will start offering a PharmD....


Now I'm all riled up thinking about the SCCOP merger

 

[YO YO YO]

Folks, this is one school we are talking about, and I seriously doubt that NACDS went out to Nebraska and convinced a small Catholic university to start an online degree. I wouldn't say that it's in an experimental phase any longer - they are 6 or 7 years in, and have already graduated a couple of classes. Their students (the successful ones anyway) have the same pay cuts and financial sacrifices that on-campus students do.

YO YO YO - I will always defend your right to have your opinion about this subject, but don't try to tell me or anybody else in the Creighton program that I am "poisoning the system due to my inadequate life planning". Unfortunately, we don't all leave college at age 21 knowing exactly what we want to do in the world. And, even if you do know at that point, sometimes things happen in life that are unexpected. My PLANNED choices in life about how I wanted to raise my family and live my everyday life are what led me to work in a pharmacy in the first place. The reality of my financial and family situation is that I cannot relocate for pharmacy school. However much I might personally want to go to School A, B, or C, there are 3 other people in my life who would be affected by that decision.

I suggest that you think long and hard before you marry and have children - that way you are less likely to face choices that will interrupt your "adequate life planning".

My opinion is that you are poisoning the system. You made the choice to have a family....so why should I, and others like me, have to live with it?

And some "things" may happen that are unexpected like health problems, accidents, deaths, etc. But an immaculate conception isn't one of them. And I'm presuming you didnt wake up after a drug-induced coma to find yourself wearing a white dress and a wedding ring. No, these things didn't 'happen'; rather, you chose these things. Or you at least put yourself in a position where these "things" were likely to happen. In my book, that's inadequate life planning.

I'm not opposed to you pursuing your education. But do it in the correct manner, and do not feed into this disgrace to the PharmD community.

And I have thought long and hard before I marry and have children. That's why I'm not married, nor do I have children. I am waiting until after I have an established career to wed and procreate.

But thanks to folks like you I may have to go back to school at after I have a couple of kids and a wife because my pharmacist salary dropped from 100K to 45K, and no I don't get time+a half anymore for overtime. So thanks once again for poisoning the system!

 

[insipid1979]

My opinion is that you are poisoning the system. You made the choice to have a family....so why should I, and others like me, have to live with it?

I agree (it must be bizarro day or something)


'rxlynn', if you can't make the sacrifices to get the necessary quality education for the job...then don't try to get the job. It is as simple as that. Too bad the ACPE decided the online program was ok. So I guess it really isn't your fault that you are trying to take advantage of that. But don't use "sacrifices you can't make" as your only excuse to justify something like this. Higher education is full of sacrifices. That is what it is all about. Are you willing to make the sacrifice? Are you smart enough to get accepted into programs (once again we are back at standards for acceptance)? It isn't about hand-me-outs because you are not willing to make sacrifices because of your life decisions.

If you want to argue that the online program is good then fine. But don't use sacrifices as your only way of justifying it. Everyone else makes sacrifices...that isn't a good enough reason to have it.

 

[mph2pharm]

Wow...this has to be the most disappointing string of posts that I have read since I have joined SDN. I will begin by saying that I did apply to Creighton's web-based program.

When I think of the challenges facing the pharmacy profession, Creighton's web-based program is probably at the bottom of my list of concerns. Maybe I am off base here but shouldn't we be more concerned about issues such as pharmacists being adequately compensated for the services that they provide or physicians and other healthcare professionals fully recognizing the breadth of knowledge that pharmacists have and the value that they bring to the health care system in improving patient outcomes and reducing medical errors?

I just simply can't understand why people are getting so up in arms about a program that they have absolutely no desire to enroll in. If you are in a campus-based program...great for you but why are you so concerned about what someone else does with their life or how much some one else is spending on their education (are you going to pay back their loans...if not then why do you care?). Some argue that web-based programs tarnish the profession but what I see tarnishing the profession is a lack of cohesiveness and a lack of focus on issues that are really important. If this is the way we treat each other and if these are the things that we are so concerned about regarding the profession, then I guess I understand why the profession is looked upon by SOME people in the way that it is.

For those who have applied to Creighton's web-based program (including me), please don't feel the need to justify the decisions you make for your life to anyone, especially to those who will have little to no impact on your life. We are all "real" students making "real" sacrifices to achieve our goals. Whether it be web-based or campus-based, get all you can out of your program and do your best by the patients and the communities that you will serve. I think your patient will be less concerned about WHERE you got your degree and more concerned about how you can help them.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

GREAT post, mph2pharm.

No one is in the position to evaluate the sacrifices another person is making. To try and do so is presumptous and arrogant.

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that I'm going to come down on the side of the people with families and responsibilities who can't just pick up and move. It is not so simple, as some have implied.

My husband and I COULD move our family, I guess. He'd give up his $50,000/year management position with a company he's worked at for 10 years, we'd have no health insurance or any type of benefits for our family, we'd have no family in the new city to help us with childcare, etc - but SURE we COULD move. No one is FORCING us to stay here.

Every decision you make in life is a cost-benefit analysis. That analysis becomes more complicated when you marry and have children. When I decided to become a pharmacist, my husband and I evaluated our options and we decided that I would apply to the only pharmacy school in our state and if I were admitted I would commute 1.5 hours each way every day for the three years I'd need to spend on campus. If I didn't get into the cheaper state school, my Plan B was to apply to Creighton's online program.

I fail to see how, if the Creighton online didactic program is rigorous (it must be - hence the NAPLEX pass rates - the test doesn't lie), if there are ample practical hours (rotations seem to be the same length of time as anywhere else), and admissions standards are the same (no one has offered evidence that the online program is full of 2.0/25 people) that the program degrades the profession.

If anything it deepens the profession by making it accessible to QUALIFED students who might otherwise have barriers to entry.

THE SKY IS NOT FALLING!!!

 

[badphish]

i just love that the holier than thou no what is good for me and what is good for the profession.

thanks for setting me straight. it is so much better to sit in a crowded lecture hall for a didactic session than to hear/see it in the comfort of my home office.

you have to do the job no matter how you get your shepskin, to get the interview you ned the sheepskin.

yeah computers are bad, thats why we are all discussing this online-- hypocrites

i bet you'll be using computers to look up drug interactions in your respective pharmacies.

you get your degree your way and let me get mine my way. we are not talking about off-shore diploma mills people. we are talking about receiving the same lectures /course materials through different mediums period.
it is the future it is reality it is now get used to it.

in 1979 i visited the UofI engineering open house there i saw a dry erase board with magnetic markers that transmitted the words writtten on the dry erase board to a PC monitor miles away.

in 2001 i attended WMD treatment courses provided by the US aRmy through teleconferencing technology. the instructor was in san antonio, i was in AZ and some other students were in Korea, Iraq, SAudi Arabia and germany.

in 2000 i took several computer courses on-line from UNix to information security.

the US Army has gave thousands of compuiters to soldiers since 2000 for the purpose of taking colege courses long distance. the soldiers receive textbooks on their doorstep and sign contracts to complete X courses in X time. the army gets educated soldiers and the soldiers get diplomas everyone wins.

sitting in a lecture hall is the right choice for you and sitting in my home office is the right choice for me.

dont tell me that i need to give up my job my house my mortgage and whatever else to get the degree i want.

i dont need nor do i want the campus enviornment to get my goals accomplished.

personally e-mail answers provide for me hard copy reponses i can refer to.

if someone wants tp pay my mortrgage and my car payments etcthen i'll certainly be happy to siy in classroom to get my degree. but if your not then shut the hell up.

different paths to the same goal.-- PharmD

as far as i know pharmacists arent doin surgery or startin IVs so ease up.

since my mommy aint paying for my school i have to work while i study. oh yeah and Uncle SAm aint paying for it either.


after a 20 YEAR military career i think i can handle the discipline necessary for long distance learning.


so i'll be getting my degree the best way for me. dont like it, eat me.

now any one no of any weekend chem classes in orlando this summer

peace out,

brett

 

[Trancelucent1]

I think this is a horrible precedent to set when we are concurrently trying to gain respect for our degrees. The term "distance learning" just makes my skin crawl

I just wanted to say...off topic, that I attend a non-traditional Distance Education program at UF. I watch my lectures online (and so do most Gainesville students). That being said we have our own campus and attend it often as we have presentations and group projects. Every campus takes exams at the same time so there is no cheating. I think the program is excellent and the distance sites actually tend to do better than the Gainesville site b/c it really does require more discipline. That being said, I don't agree with a program having only 10-12 contact days/year. I think that really makes all distance education schools look like a joke. I go to campus almost 3x/wk, next year it'll be almost everyday. Plus I have to come home and watch lectures, work on presentations, prepare for classes. I just don't understand how you could practice presentations and work in groups without physically interacting with them. I do think you can learn just as well with online classes, as I haven't had any problems. Our notes are posted online, we have discussion boards with professors, we have faciliators who actually work in hospitals and we have campus administrators to help us. I just don't see how all these things could be acheived with Creighton's online program and it makes me sad that it really could end up degrading our degree. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how everything pans out. The ACPE really watches over these types of programs (in fact when they came last year they kept telling us how impressed they were with our distance sites).

 

[All4MyDaughter]

That being said, I don't agree with a program having only 10-12 contact days/year. I think that really makes all distance education schools look like a joke.

I just don't understand how you could practice presentations and work in groups without physically interacting with them.

The ACPE really watches over these types of programs (in fact when they came last year they kept telling us how impressed they were with our distance sites).

I snipped your post because there were three points that I wanted to respond to:



I haven't looked at the curriculum in a while, since I didn't end up needing to apply to the CU program, but I'm pretty sure that it is more than 10-12 contact days. I had the impression that it was a full-month each summer for labs. If that is the case, then we're talking 150-160 contact hours each summer for labs. I have no idea how that compares to hours spent in LABS in traditional pharmD programs.


I think the group work/presentation business is highly overrated. I dislike group work, in fact. In my experience, especially in graduate school (I have a masters) group work = busy work. Besides that, you can hone your interpersonal skills in rotations. The rotation sites I'm familiar with locally (not many, admittedly) have group projects, journal club, etc. for rotating students.


I think you are right that the ACPE probably scrutinizes this type of program even more than others. As well they should, as POTENTIAL for problems exist. That said, the program is has full accreditation and has never been put on probation (that I know of) so that is a good sign.

 

[RxRob]

There is no shortage of people who believe the way they do things is the only right way to do things... just ask my in-laws.

There is far too much romancing of university life here. Too many factors that are unquantifiable, such as the convinced belief in god because of a feeling that cannot be described plays such a huge role that there is just no talking to anyone about some things. If you're like me, the fact that placebo's work pisses you off, but yet they do don't they? However, I've rationalized what aspects of human nature piss me off enough to be wary of when i may be doing it.

This is really all you need to know to figure it out... the eyes see, the ears hear, this shapes neuronal patterns into memory, ideas combine to form concepts and understanding, and hands on work experience turns all of that into practical and working knowledge. This is the mechanism we call education. Everything else is just a detail. As a person of true science, some specific criteria would have to come to light before you can even make a statement other than "lecture halls are just better". Nope, you need to see, hear, rationalize, then do it. That's it, sorry.

By lionizing the lecture hall experience, what it means to you, you simply gain understanding into the psyche that drives both zeolots and bigots. You may never agree with me, but I promise you will think of many things differently in a decade.

As an economics minor, stigma or not, Adam smith will play a role in how pharmacy and almost all disciplines in the future will be taught. Keynesian concepts will preserve the quality to the extent possible that additional access affects.

People frowned when the tv took the place of dinner talk, they frowned when Rosa Parks was too lazy to move her large behind out of a chair, they frowned when phone work went to India and Malaysia... plan on doing a LOT of frowning because your feelings, though justified as it messes up your perfect little no-family plan is still unbelievably naive... it WILL happen just like everything else did and stigma will always be associated with change because all people as an aggregate entity can't stand change. Computers are ALL ABOUT information, it's the genius of the creation.

Relax, if it doesn't work, then it WON'T work, or .. you'll be wrong. I like things the way they are, but I've seen too much to think being the proponent of the stigma is going to change anything.

 

[YO YO YO]

There is no shortage of people who believe the way they do things is the only right way to do things... just ask my in-laws.

There is far too much romancing of university life here. Too many factors that are unquantifiable, such as the convinced belief in god because of a feeling that cannot be described plays such a huge role that there is just no talking to anyone about some things. If you're like me, the fact that placebo's work pisses you off, but yet they do don't they? However, I've rationalized what aspects of human nature piss me off enough to be wary of when i may be doing it.

This is really all you need to know to figure it out... the eyes see, the ears hear, this shapes neuronal patterns into memory, ideas combine to form concepts and understanding, and hands on work experience turns all of that into practical and working knowledge. This is the mechanism we call education. Everything else is just a detail. As a person of true science, some specific criteria would have to come to light before you can even make a statement other than "lecture halls are just better". Nope, you need to see, hear, rationalize, then do it. That's it, sorry.

By lionizing the lecture hall experience, what it means to you, you simply gain understanding into the psyche that drives both zeolots and bigots. You may never agree with me, but I promise you will think of many things differently in a decade.

As an economics minor, stigma or not, Adam smith will play a role in how pharmacy and almost all disciplines in the future will be taught. Keynesian concepts will preserve the quality to the extent possible that additional access affects.

People frowned when the tv took the place of dinner talk, they frowned when Rosa Parks was too lazy to move her large behind out of a chair, they frowned when phone work went to India and Malaysia... plan on doing a LOT of frowning because your feelings, though justified as it messes up your perfect little no-family plan is still unbelievably naive... it WILL happen just like everything else did and stigma will always be associated with change because all people as an aggregate entity can't stand change. Computers are ALL ABOUT information, it's the genius of the creation.

Relax, if it doesn't work, then it WON'T work, or .. you'll be wrong. I like things the way they are, but I've seen too much to think being the proponent of the stigma is going to change anything.

Online Technology is only good when used to suppliment standard curricula. Analogically, vitamins are not meant to replace food but to work synergistically with it.

Romancing of campus life? Are you on drugs, man? Many pharmacy schools are separate from the main campus and are not the most modernized facilities to begin with. I can assure you my campus is far from romantic in its urban setting. This has nothing to do with attending peace rallies to meet girls in skimpy outfits. Although you seem to be stuck on that. Maybe you are having second thoughts about your marriage.....save that for another forum please.

This has to with one thing:
The reputation of the Doctorate of Pharmacy.

It may happen that your precious degree, as well as everyone else's, will soon have the same prestige as a DeVry certificate, or a University of Phoenix Degree. I hear that they email you the degree and you print it out.

 

[YO YO YO]

GREAT post, mph2pharm.

No one is in the position to evaluate the sacrifices another person is making. To try and do so is presumptous and arrogant.

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that I'm going to come down on the side of the people with families and responsibilities who can't just pick up and move. It is not so simple, as some have implied.

My husband and I COULD move our family, I guess. He'd give up his $50,000/year management position with a company he's worked at for 10 years, we'd have no health insurance or any type of benefits for our family, we'd have no family in the new city to help us with childcare, etc - but SURE we COULD move. No one is FORCING us to stay here.

Every decision you make in life is a cost-benefit analysis. That analysis becomes more complicated when you marry and have children. When I decided to become a pharmacist, my husband and I evaluated our options and we decided that I would apply to the only pharmacy school in our state and if I were admitted I would commute 1.5 hours each way every day for the three years I'd need to spend on campus. If I didn't get into the cheaper state school, my Plan B was to apply to Creighton's online program.

I fail to see how, if the Creighton online didactic program is rigorous (it must be - hence the NAPLEX pass rates - the test doesn't lie), if there are ample practical hours (rotations seem to be the same length of time as anywhere else), and admissions standards are the same (no one has offered evidence that the online program is full of 2.0/25 people) that the program degrades the profession.

If anything it deepens the profession by making it accessible to QUALIFED students who might otherwise have barriers to entry.

THE SKY IS NOT FALLING!!!

I don't care one iota about evaluating your sacrifices. I care about one thing here: you are destroying the reputation of the PharmD.

Online degrees are frowned upon by society. Period. To have the word 'online' associated with the PharmD demeans our doctorate.

Now, real students like myself and others like me have to suffer the loss of prestige that these negative societal stigmas bring, because people like you have to poison the system.

In addition, it degrades the profession because it opens the door to the saturation of the job market with pharmacists. Schools will be able to double and triple their enrollment with small expense. And that means pay cuts for pharmacists who actually left their house to go to school every day for 3-5 years. Shame on you for being ignorant to this.

And I do not care about your kids and your families! YOU chose that path. YOU chose you get married, and YOU chose to procreate. Why do we have to suffer the consequences of your inadequate life planning? No one has given me one good reason yet! Someone please tell me!

People are defecating on all real students' hard work because of their...kids..kids..kids. We didnt have your kids, so why are we paying for it? That's all I hear....kids, kids, kids. A bunch of martyrs who hand-crafted their own crosses.

As I said, I am not opposed to you pursuing your dream, but you need to do it in the correct manner. Online graduates will be the equivalent of 'scabs' in a union strike to those of us who actually "go" to school every day.

The words I post here may be considered 'harsh' to some people. But the potential damage done by my words to the egos of these online students pales in comparison to the damage that these vermin are doing to the real students' reputations and potential salaries.

Its funny that when I hear students complaining about getting 'C's in their tests, you soon hear the word 'kids' repeated over and over. -Well my kid was up all night; -my kid puked on my new sweater so I had to take it to the cleaners and then I didn't have time to study. People, I am NOT the father! Why am I paying child support out of my PharmD's reputation bank? There is a very good chance that I could well be paying for your kids with my salary cut as well. Thank you for your contribution to society.

You people just wait until the alumni contributions drop, because disgusted alumni refuse to pay for this mockery of education. Then we will see how many 'online campuses' are remaining!

 

[YO YO YO]

Maybe I am off base here but shouldn't we be more concerned about issues such as pharmacists being adequately compensated for the services that they provide or physicians and other healthcare professionals fully recognizing the breadth of knowledge that pharmacists have and the value that they bring to the health care system in improving patient outcomes and reducing medical errors?

Yes we should be concerned about that. I am definitely concerned, as are others.

If this online program becomes commonplace in the not-so-distant future, pharmacy schools will be able to at least double if not triple their annual enrollment with minimal expense. With all that money to be made, do you honestly think pharmacy schools will ignore this opportunity? We're talking about $100K+ per student....for online classes. Creighton and other schools doing the 'distance learning' thing are simply testing the market for other schools.

At this rate, the nation would stand a significant chance to double the volume of pharmacists per year. What do you think that will do to the issue of 'pharmacists being adequately compensated for the services that they provide'. Or are you one of those economic scholars that believes pharmacists make the good salary that they do because they 'go one more year of school' (ROFL)

So you see, we are really both concerned about the same thing here. Come on people, the shortage of pharmacists is a good thing. It keeps standards as well as wages high. Are we so ethical that we are willing to slash our salaries in half? I for one am NOT.

As soon as one or two web based programs catch on, you can bet your bottom dollar that other schools will follow suit. After all, it's not like new buildings need to be built, and there is revenue to be made. "Seats" in a Doctor of Pharmacy program could become a thing of the past. How much does it really cost to add another email address to the server? All students view the same recorded lectures...how much does a cameraman cost? (Oh and since it is not a video production they dont have to worry about unions)

I urge you all to not support this travesty. Your reputations and your wages are at stake....not next year, but definitely in the next decade if this catches on. Treat these vermin like the scabs they are! They are poisoning your future!

 

[YO YO YO]

you get your degree your way and let me get mine my way.

sitting in a lecture hall is the right choice for you and sitting in my home office is the right choice for me.

dont tell me that i need to give up my job my house my mortgage and whatever else to get the degree i want.

personally e-mail answers provide for me hard copy reponses i can refer to.

if someone wants tp pay my mortrgage and my car payments etcthen i'll certainly be happy to siy in classroom to get my degree. but if your not then shut the hell up.

different paths to the same goal.-- PharmD

as far as i know pharmacists arent doin surgery or startin IVs so ease up.

since my mommy aint paying for my school i have to work while i study. oh yeah and Uncle SAm aint paying for it either.

so i'll be getting my degree the best way for me. dont like it, eat me.

now any one no of any weekend chem classes in orlando this summer

peace out,
brett

I will tell you what to do! Stop being a scab! Get your degree the right way.

And my mommy and daddy aren't paying for me either. But you mean to tell me that on a military salary, with a mortgage and car payments, that you have $100K+ saved? Even if you do, Uncle Sam DID pay for it.

I will continue to protest your despicable actions. If you don't like it, too bad. You don't have the power to shut me up!

And you are looking for weekend chemistry classes in the summer....how pathetic. Do you have any idea how vital chemistry is to success in pharmacy school? Talk about low standards...summer weekend courses...ROFL...

And the word that you are trying to use is 'know' --not 'no'. You may have 'known' that if you picked up a dictionary.

If you end up making $45K/yr as a pharmacist, you only have yourself (and others like you) to blame.

Let's hope alumni contributions drop significantly in response to this demeaning trend, and the trend stops!

Good luck with your science courses ROFL!

 

[All4MyDaughter]

YO YO wrote:

I don't care one iota about evaluating your sacrifices. I care about one thing here: you are destroying the reputation of the PharmD.

Now, real students like myself and others...

Shame on you for being ignorant to this.

Why do we have to suffer the consequences of your inadequate life planning? No one has given me one good reason yet! Someone please tell me!

As I said, I am not opposed to you pursuing your dream, but you need to do it in the correct manner.

The words I post here may be considered 'harsh' to some people.

Snipped, just to get the BEST parts.



How am I destroying the reputation of the PharmD?
Because I'm a student who has children?
I don't think so!

I'm a real student, trust me.
My grades, scores and depleted bank account prove it.

Your "consequences" are imagined. You are not suffering.
In fact, YOU are acting like the "martyr" that needs to get off the cross.

There is no "correct" way to pursue a dream.

"Harsh" is the wrong word for what you are saying because it implies something that is hard to hear, but correct. Your assertions are wrong and misinformed.

By the way, I think it's usually rude to ask this, but did you even read what I wrote? I don't go to an online program. I will be attending a Top 10 pharmacy program, on campus. Not that it matters a bit (I might have chosen the online but for the high tuition costs) but you might sound more credible if you read more carefully.

 

[DownonthePharm]

It takes a lot of disipline to create time for online coursework pharmD or pre-reqs. I know I never did it because I need the rigidity of classtime. The fact is most of the people who take these options are usually already at a "disadvantage" because they have reasons they cant attend traditional class hours, or move to a new location for school.

Someone mentioned sacrificing for school. Do you think its logical to make someone sacrifice seeing their children for four years? No, I think not. But if you want to make a better life for them and yourself and the online program was the only way the do it, they should be able do it.

No matter how you get your pharmacy education you still need to pass the boards. If online degrees were as subpar as some claim than why would anyone pass the NAPLEX?

I dont think there should be 100 online programs. But a few, in conjunction with an established traditional pharmacy school, under the same criteria of admittance/testing/etc, wont tarnish anything.

 

[Y0 YO Y0]

YO YO YO wrote:
How am I destroying the reputation of the PharmD?

"Harsh" is the wrong word for what you are saying because it implies something that is hard to hear, but correct.

By the way, I think it's usually rude to ask this, but did you even read what I wrote? I don't go to an online program. I will be attending a Top 10 pharmacy program, on campus. Not that it matters a bit (I might have chosen the online but for the high tuition costs) but you might sound more credible if you read more carefully.

I already made multiple comments outlining how you, and people like you, poison the PharmD program. Scroll up and re-read.

Now where in the definitions for 'harsh' does it say that something has to be 'correct'? How difficult is it to look up a definition before you post?

harsh (härsh)
adj. harsh·er, harsh·est
1: Unpleasantly coarse and rough to the touch. See Synonyms at rough.
2: Disagreeable to the senses, especially to the sense of hearing. 3: Severe, cruel, or exacting: harsh punishment; a harsh overseer. 4: Unpleasant or uncomfortable: a harsh wilderness

harsh
adj 1: unpleasantly stern; "wild and harsh country full of hot sand and cactus"; "the nomad life is rough and hazardous" [syn: rough] 2: disagreeable to the senses; "the harsh cry of a blue jay"; "harsh cognac"; "the harsh white light makes you screw up your eyes"; "harsh irritating smoke filled the hallway" 3: extremely unkind or cruel; "had harsh words"; "a harsh and unlovable old tyrant" 4: severe; "a harsh penalty" 5: used of circumstances (especially weather) that cause suffering; "brutal weather"; "northern winters can be cruel"; "a cruel world"; "a harsh climate"; "a rigorous climate"; "unkind winters" [syn: brutal, cruel, rigorous, unkind] 6: sharply disagreeable; rigorous; "the harsh facts of court delays"; "an abrasive character" [syn: abrasive]

There is no reference to being 'correct', although my words were correct regardless. But your invented definition of 'harsh' was wrong. Once again let me stress the usefullness of a dictionary.

I wouldn't say it is 'rude' of you to ask; I would say that it is unintelligent of you to ask. Obviously you are not enrolled in the online program, as it clearly states in your post. But it was your plan B, and you foolishly support these online programs which run the risk of saturating the job market with pharmacists and lowering wages. So in my book, you are just as bad as those who are enrolled for online classes.

Well, according to the AACP (American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy), they do not rank Pharmacy schools nor do they endorse any publications that do. So anyone who told you that your school is Top 10 received his/her information from an unofficial and erroneous source.
Here is the AACP policy on rating pharmacy schools, which is verifyable at the PharmCas website http://www.pharmcas.org/advisors/admissionsprocess.htm
PHARMACY SCHOOL RANKINGS
AACP does not rank the institutions that provide pharmaceutical education in the United States, nor endorse any publication that ranks pharmacy degree programs. Each college and school of pharmacy in the U.S. undergoes an extensive accreditation process as required by the Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education to ensure that the program meets very high minimum standards of excellence. The educational needs of prospective students vary considerably from person to person. The subjective factors that should go into any ranking system are not adequately addressed by any of the known publications that currently rank schools. You should choose a pharmacy degree program carefully based upon factors that are important to your own learning needs. You may wish to consider program content, geographic location, faculty, facilities, experiential training opportunities, class size, student demographics, extra-curricular opportunities, and cost in your decision to apply to any program at any institution.
I hope that didn't deflate your ego too rapidly.

You might sound more credible if you used a dictionary before you proclaim a definition; and if you checked on AACP policy before you *****ically boast the invented and un-endorsed ranking of your school.

Also, who in their right mind in this day and age posts an avatar with a photo of his/her daughter in a public forum? Don't you have any sense of familial security?

Honestly, All4MyDaughter, the more you type the more you insult your intelligence. My best advice to you is to stop now.

 

[twester]

It takes a lot of disipline to create time for online coursework pharmD or pre-reqs. I know I never did it because I need the rigidity of classtime. The fact is most of the people who take these options are usually already at a "disadvantage" because they have reasons they cant attend traditional class hours, or move to a new location for school.

Someone mentioned sacrificing for school. Do you think its logical to make someone sacrifice seeing their children for four years? No, I think not. But if you want to make a better life for them and yourself and the online program was the only way the do it, they should be able do it.

No matter how you get your pharmacy education you still need to pass the boards. If online degrees were as subpar as some claim than why would anyone pass the NAPLEX?

I dont think there should be 100 online programs. But a few, in conjunction with an established traditional pharmacy school, under the same criteria of admittance/testing/etc, wont tarnish anything.

Well spoken.

In the three years since this thread began, we still only have one school that offers their curriculum online and several that offer a hybrid. I think there may be several reasons for that.

One - among students in science-based curricula, most seem to prefer an in-class experience. The chemistry department at my school is currently conducting a survey about this topic. I'll see if I can get some information about their results when they come out this summer. Personally, my learning style demands that I be in class since the social mores of paying attention to a speaker and not falling asleep in public keep me in line.

Two - an online curriculum must be incredibly expensive to run. The $20 or $30 dollars we pay a month for internet access are a drop in the bucket compared to the expense of a large-scale high-speed network. Aggregation of circuits to get hundreds or thousands of Mbps bandwidth, router equipment, servers, video equipment, and staff to run it all costs a lot of money. I used to be a telecom engineer so I can speak with some authority about that. Most people have no idea what goes on behind the scenes of the little box that brings them the internet.

Three - there is resistance to on-line learning from many professors, especially in the sciences. Many feel that their jobs are threatened by the trend and that the quality of instruction suffers.

I don't think the presence of one school with an online curriculum will damage the quality of our degrees at all. The trend towards more distance learning does need to be monitored and if it ever appears that the quality of pharmacists coming out the programs is decreasing (via NAPLEX pass rates or other criteria), we should be prepared to put a stop to it.

Just my $.02,
Troy

 

[KUMoose]

Railing against online programs (or other non-traditional programs) is like spitting into the wind. It's only entertaining to the people watching you. In the next decade the amount of non-traditional classes will (and should) increase. It's an easy way to expand to fit the needs of the public, which is really what this should be about.

What needs to be watched is how campus vs. ntcd (non-traditional content delivery) measured against a standard system, in our case the NABPLEX. In fact the 1st time take/pass ratio for 2005 was higher with ntcd Creighton students then their campus alternatives. However, Creighton seems to be a poor school to measure, because their program seems to be changing to fill existing holes in their program. (source)

The goal of the college is to present the information required in the most accessible way. The plethora of schools presenting ntcd successfully indicates that the method works. Well why doesn't it work for MD/DOs? well if you extract the non-lab work, it would, except that most of their studies is wet work. A fact that simply isn’t true of most Pharmacy course work (and something I’d moved closer in line with MD work iiwkfad).

Rail against a school or the ACPE for not including as much lab work as the students need, but don't rail on a program because of your own bigoted opinions. Non-traditional programs are finding their own identity much like community colleges did 30 years ago. Like many here, I am a non-traditional student. I have been doing computer stuff (anything but web work) for 10 years professionally (and longer if you count my on the side jobs). In that time I have met a number of professionals and the fact that someone graduated from a non-traditional school, either evenings, on the web or weekend, was not a basis in whether the person was competent. I have met exceptionally talented people that went a non-traditional route and I’ve met absolute chodes that went a traditional route.

Personally, I’d like to see a basic curricula that is ntcd friendly, because it’ll make my life easier as a student. In a class of more then 30, it’s assured that student to professor time drops to near-zero during class time. So for classes where the prof just reads from a power point, why not go to the gym and listen to a podcast? Why not fold laundry and listen to a tape of the guy? Better yet, why not have the course material in multiple formats so the students can learn in the method they are best suited?

By the way there buddy Yo^3, the online chemistry class I took had more lab hours then did the in-class equivalent. More so, the online chemistry class students who finished the course did better in the subsequent chemistry classes then the traditional counter-parts at my school.

 

[Y0 YO Y0]

Railing against online programs (or other non-traditional programs) is like spitting into the wind. It's only entertaining to the people watching you. In the next decade the amount of non-traditional classes will (and should) increase. It's an easy way to expand to fit the needs of the public, which is really what this should be about.

What needs to be watched is how campus vs. ntcd (non-traditional content delivery) measured against a standard system, in our case the NAPLEX. In fact the 1st time take/pass ratio for 2005 was higher with ntcd Creighton students then their campus alternatives. However, Creighton seems to be a poor school to measure, because their program seems to be changing to fill existing holes in their program. (source)

The goal of the college is to present the information required in the most accessible way. The plethora of schools presenting ntcd successfully indicates that the method works. Well why doesn't it work for MD/DOs? well if you extract the non-lab work, it would, except that most of their studies is wet work. A fact that simply isn’t true of most Pharmacy course work (and something I’d moved closer in line with MD work iiwkfad).

Rail against a school or the ACPE for not including as much lab work as the students need, but don't rail on a program because of your own bigoted opinions. Non-traditional programs are finding their own identity much like community colleges did 30 years ago. Like many here, I am a non-traditional student. I have been doing computer stuff (anything but web work) for 10 years professionally (and longer if you count my on the side jobs). In that time I have met a number of professionals and the fact that someone graduated from a non-traditional school, either evenings, on the web or weekend, was not a basis in whether the person was competent. I have met exceptionally talented people that went a non-traditional route and I’ve met absolute chodes that went a traditional route.

Personally, I’d like to see a basic curricula that is ntcd friendly, because it’ll make my life easier as a student. In a class of more then 30, it’s assured that student to professor time drops to near-zero during class time. So for classes where the prof just reads from a power point, why not go to the gym and listen to a podcast? Why not fold laundry and listen to a tape of the guy? Better yet, why not have the course material in multiple formats so the students can learn in the method they are best suited?

By the way there buddy Yo^3, the online chemistry class I took had more lab hours then did the in-class equivalent. More so, the online chemistry class students who finished the course did better in the subsequent chemistry classes then the traditional counter-parts at my school.

Spoken like a true idiot

 

[DownonthePharm]

Spoken like a true idiot

I wonder how long until this incarnation of your self gets banned?

You clearly have an opinon on this issue. Others may have a differing one. Debate is nice. But we would probably be more likely to listen to you if you were respectful in expressing your views.

 

[rxlynn]

I agree (it must be bizarro day or something)


'rxlynn', if you can't make the sacrifices to get the necessary quality education for the job...then don't try to get the job. It is as simple as that. Too bad the ACPE decided the online program was ok. So I guess it really isn't your fault that you are trying to take advantage of that. But don't use "sacrifices you can't make" as your only excuse to justify something like this. Higher education is full of sacrifices. That is what it is all about. Are you willing to make the sacrifice? Are you smart enough to get accepted into programs (once again we are back at standards for acceptance)? It isn't about hand-me-outs because you are not willing to make sacrifices because of your life decisions.

If you want to argue that the online program is good then fine. But don't use sacrifices as your only way of justifying it. Everyone else makes sacrifices...that isn't a good enough reason to have it.

"sacrifices I can't make" wasn't my quote. I agree that everyone should expect to sacrifice a lot of things to pursue the dream of pharmacy school, but I don't think that giving up health insurance, decent housing, and my husband's $100K a year job just so I could go off to the pharmacy school of my choice is realistic.

And, yes I think my 98 PCAT, 3.8, and 6 years of experience in a pharmacy is enough to get me accepted into the majority of programs.

 

[blotterspotter]

You are not required to tell your future employer that you did a web based program. The diplomas look exactly the same as the students who did the campus based programs at the same university.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

That statement alone solidifies my point. This is exactly why the PharmD degree will decline in value. There should be something on their degree that says, "I got my degree online." I dont want people suspecting that my doctorate may have been earned online, because a few selfish people couldn't find the time to attend lecture. I want people to know I attented a real school. All of us real students made the financial sacrifices, took pay cuts, and/or left our jobs. Why should they be any different.

Online degrees have a negative societal connotation, whether you like it or not, even if you choose to deny it. I don't care about the remarkable quality of these online educational programs; I don't care about their exemplary NAPLEX passing rates; I don't care if an online student knows the mechanism of a reverse-transcriptase inhibitor better than a traditional student; and I don't care if they play flag football on sundays and cozy up to the fire after a turkey dinner on Sunday night. The very FACT that there are people out there earning their entire PharmD degree online disgraces the profession, and I will not support it wherever I go.

Once again...I don't care if their NAPLEX passing rate is 303.56%...the whole idea of getting such a "prestigious" degree online takes away from that prestige....you know it and I know it.

I would walk around the campuses of the offending universities with a picket sign, but I'm afraid that I have actual classes to attend.

These people are poisoning the system due to their inadequate life planning, and lack of regard for anyone else in the profession. You can bet that NACDS is behind this in an effort to reduce the amount they need to pay pharmacists in the long run. Simple supply and demand economics here. And of course people are gobbling it up.

Sure, competition is still pretty tight now while this program is still in its experimental phase. But you wait 5 to 10 years and see how the competition eases up. And then when you tell someone that you are a PharmD at your Country Club Sunday Brunch, don't be surprised if you hear a chuckle or two. Because if this catches on (I'm sure it will), anyone will be able to be a pharmacist.

Build it and they will come. And if they cant pass 'cause too many came, well then throw 'em a curve. It will happen. Look at the 1990's streamlining of drug approval procedures that resulted in the FDA Modernization Act of 1997. Money talks....ethics walks.

I can't believe people are so concerned about what others may think they are blind to these truths. We wouldn't want to offend anyone, would we? After all, your next job interview might be conducted by an online alumnus/a.

But you can't tell by looking at their degree.

You're hysterical and absolutely correct. GOP all the way.

 

[blotterspotter]

I fail to see how, if the Creighton online didactic program is rigorous (it must be - hence the NAPLEX pass rates - the test doesn't lie), if there are ample practical hours (rotations seem to be the same length of time as anywhere else), and admissions standards are the same (no one has offered evidence that the online program is full of 2.0/25 people) that the program degrades the profession.

If anything it deepens the profession by making it accessible to QUALIFED students who might otherwise have barriers to entry.

THE SKY IS NOT FALLING!!!

It degrades the profession because it's ONLINE. If Harvard or Yale ever started offering whole degrees online, their image would suffer. It's sad, but true. Most people equate the internet with spam, prescription drug offers, and smut. I don't think someone that did the whole online course will have less of an education, but it takes away from the profession's image. It's like someone that was home schooled. They might do very well on standardized tests and may have gotten an excellent education, but most people still feel somewhere deep in their gut that it's not equal to someone that was educated the traditional route.

The profession is already struggling as it is, but unfortunately the pharmacy accrediting board has let corporate friends get the best of them. I'm a big fan of big business, but a profession must have standards. The chains have already ruined most of pharmacy with their drive-throughs and forcing pharmacists to pump out 5000 prescriptions a day, and, unfortunately, regulatory bodies have done very little to stop it.

 

[Falokis]

You're hysterical and absolutely correct. GOP all the way.

I agree with everything Yo Yo Yo said in that post also, but not with the attitude he used. The reason I agree with him is I've seen and taken online classes that the TESTS are online and you got THREE attempts. You can just print the online notes and make an A with out a seconds worth of studying. I watch and heard people trading the answers to people that waited till the last day of class to do all the tests at once and made an A in a class I worked my ass off on campus. Worst part was that class is just as good as the campus one. Total horse ****.

However, if these online degrees have the same amount of lab time, group projects, and on campus test, I can't really complain. When the classes don't stick to these rules, I will be upset. It may not be happening now, but it will and that is what bothers me. Most schools only care about $money$ so, it's only a matter of time.

 

[KUMoose]

I've seen and taken online classes that the TESTS are online and you got THREE attempts.

Is this at Creighton SOP, Creighton in general or at another institution?

However, if these online degrees have the same amount group projects,
...

What is the fascination with group projects? Is it the leadership/follower skills you're looking to cultivate?

Most schools only care about $money$ so, it's only a matter of time.

Alas, I can't argue with this, but the online classes don't save colleges much, if anything in fields that need to be nimble. What non-traditional education classes do is open a new revenue stream.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

It degrades the profession because it's ONLINE. If Harvard or Yale ever started offering whole degrees online, their image would suffer. It's sad, but true. Most people equate the internet with spam, prescription drug offers, and smut. I don't think someone that did the whole online course will have less of an education, but it takes away from the profession's image. It's like someone that was home schooled. They might do very well on standardized tests and may have gotten an excellent education, but most people still feel somewhere deep in their gut that it's not equal to someone that was educated the traditional route.

The thing that differentiates CU's program from a "whole online degree" is that more than 25% of it is NOT online. I'm talking about labs and rotations, which together make up more than 25% of the PharmD program.

And lots of reputable education is online. Most pharmacists do their CE online these days. MD's as well as PhD do CE online too. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to think of a profession where at least part of the didactic education is not being offered online currently.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

"sacrifices I can't make" wasn't my quote. I agree that everyone should expect to sacrifice a lot of things to pursue the dream of pharmacy school, but I don't think that giving up health insurance, decent housing, and my husband's $100K a year job just so I could go off to the pharmacy school of my choice is realistic.

And, yes I think my 98 PCAT, 3.8, and 6 years of experience in a pharmacy is enough to get me accepted into the majority of programs.

It sounds like your situation is similar to mine. I am lucky that I have a pharmacy school within driving distance and I was admitted to their program.

I probably would have preferred to do the online program but I just couldn't justify the extra cost. Although I don't really like driving, so time will tell if I am happy with my choice.

 

[Falokis]

Is this at Creighton SOP, Creighton in general or at another institution?

Another institution. I'm not saying it's happening at Creighton because I don't have a clue. I'm just saying the almighty dollar might cause some PharmD programs to drop standards like the institution I was talking about.

What is the fascination with group projects? Is it the leadership/follower skills you're looking to cultivate?

I don't really care about group projects personally. I just feel if most (if not all campus based) SoP require them, yours should too. That's all.

Alas, I can't argue with this, but the online classes don't save colleges much, if anything in fields that need to be nimble. What non-traditional education classes do is open a new revenue stream.

I'm not flaming you/anyone or saying these degrees are not as good. I'm just worried that is where it is going for some schools and that does bring us all down in my opinion.

 

[klebsiella]

After reading this thread Im glad that this forum exists to debate topics like this!

Im sure there are plenty of folks who are in pharmacy school or looking to get in who "want to help people" but there are also plenty of people who want a career where they can make decent money and right now one of the "it" jobs is pharmacy. The field has been plastered on more news shows, magazines and newspapers because of the shortage so of course people jump on the bandwagon, I mean isnt that what happened with computer science 10 years ago? Career interest always chases the supply/demand curve it never is in front of it, so when there is sufficient supply it will be harder to find jobs and there will be less interest in the field. But does that honestly mean that salaries are going to drop to $45K? Im trying to think of an actual careerfield that fired its workforce and hired a new one at half the salary. I think it is true that an increase in pharmacists will mean the yearly salary wont grow as fast, bonus' wont be there and jobs may be harder to get but I dont buy that the salary will drop astronomically. But hey Im open to any examples.

I think Creigthon and other universities are businesses and see the need in the field and the opportunity to make money by offering an online degree. Isn't this similar to the nursing shortage...when more nurses were needed more two year programs popped up to help "pump out" more nurses (not that there still isnt a shortage). And nurses with a BS degree and those with an AA make around the same money, do the same job, etc. So I would be more upset if universities start to drop the requirements needed to become a pharmacist vs. offering the same program to people who choose to do it from home.

Maybe Im naive, but I don't see how an online degree is harming the field. But to me a true disservice to the field would be putting unqualified people into it. The course work is the same and Im sure if you worked side by side with someone with a degree from an online program they would be just as capable of doing their job as someone who went to a campus based program. Isnt that what we should be upset with? Universities churnning out people who can't do their jobs?

From another point of view, isnt this the same argument as people who go to ivy league or tier 1 schools looking down on folks who went to a tier 3 school or community college? I went to an Ivy league school and heard all of the garbage coming out of folk's mouth about people going to state schools and how "they were ruining our chances to have good jobs when our cirriculum was more demanding." I didn't buy into it then and I certainly don't buy it now.

 

[karariki]

I agree with everything Yo Yo Yo said in that post also, but not with the attitude he used. The reason I agree with him is I've seen and taken online classes that the TESTS are online and you got THREE attempts. You can just print the online notes and make an A with out a seconds worth of studying. I watch and heard people trading the answers to people that waited till the last day of class to do all the tests at once and made an A in a class I worked my ass off on campus. Worst part was that class is just as good as the campus one. Total horse ****.

However, if these online degrees have the same amount of lab time, group projects, and on campus test, I can't really complain. When the classes don't stick to these rules, I will be upset. It may not be happening now, but it will and that is what bothers me. Most schools only care about $money$ so, it's only a matter of time.

yup, it's easy to cheat when taking online classes.

I understand the reasons for nontraditional students to prefer getting a Pharm.D from an online school. Having a family to support & school to keep up at the same is not easy to handle, so I respect that and sympathize their circumstances.

online lecture is fine w/ me. It's actually even better than fine. B/c to be honest, in the traditional classroom, even I don't think i will attend classes regularly if the prof can't teach. Online lectures give the flexibility for students to learn their own time.
But the labs shouldn't be condensed to be finished in a short period of time during the summer. My friends & I had tons of summer classes that were condensed into 1 or 1.5 month. We had never really retained much info after taking the finals. sad, but true. Condensed summer labs are not as good as labs in the regular semesters. Moreover, group work is difficult w/ online classes.

Online Pharm.D should be limited only for those who already have a B.S in pharmacy wanting to upgrade their degree or those who have long, strong work experience in pharmacy. These students already have an idea what pharmacy is, all they need is just the "data." Other students? traditional Pham.D is the way to go since it could accomplish in training them into well-rounded pharmacists better.

online Pharm.D. may or may not lessen the value of a traditional Pharm.D. depending on its approach of teaching.

 

[Añejo]

I was told that Creighton campus based students take the same exam in the same format (i.e. software-based testing) as the online students for all classes. The only difference is that the campus based students take their exam on their laptop in the classroom, and the online students take their exams at a testing center like Prometric (to ensure the identity and integrity of the student).

 

[badphish]

I will tell you what to do! Stop being a scab! Get your degree the right way.

And my mommy and daddy aren't paying for me either. But you mean to tell me that on a military salary, with a mortgage and car payments, that you have $100K+ saved? Even if you do, Uncle Sam DID pay for it.

I will continue to protest your despicable actions. If you don't like it, too bad. You don't have the power to shut me up!

And you are looking for weekend chemistry classes in the summer....how pathetic. Do you have any idea how vital chemistry is to success in pharmacy school? Talk about low standards...summer weekend courses...ROFL...

And the word that you are trying to use is 'know' --not 'no'. You may have 'known' that if you picked up a dictionary.

If you end up making $45K/yr as a pharmacist, you only have yourself (and others like you) to blame.

Let's hope alumni contributions drop significantly in response to this demeaning trend, and the trend stops!

Good luck with your science courses ROFL!

i can spell and i do know the difference between know and no. and if you want to call someone thats worked 25 years saving lives a scab feel free. please come to orlando and get hurt or injured so i can show what being a professional in the medical field is all about.

as for 100,000.00 saved up from uncle sam i wish. you missed the whole point of this exercise troll. some of us have bills to pay for besides the school related ones. and if you are telling i have no right to go to pharm school because i didnt decide on it right out of high school you can blow me.

plus i never said i was going to do all my classes online you tit. their are alot of military personnel getting their degrees through non-traditional means. explain the difference to me about taking a chem class for 8 hours on sat vs. 4 hours on tue and fri.

some of us are self motivated and dont need to sit in a lecture hall for 4 days a week to validate our education.

so i guess your saying that the U0fF program is in-valid cause you listen to the same lecture on the web vs. lecture hall.

why am i trying to reason with you.

you get your degree your way and i'll get my degree my way.

end of discussion

peace out

be safe,

brett

 

[Trancelucent1]

i can spell and i do know the difference between know and no. and if you want to call someone thats worked 25 years saving lives a scab feel free. please come to orlando and get hurt or injured so i can show what being a professional in the medical field is all about.

as for 100,000.00 saved up from uncle sam i wish. you missed the whole point of this exercise troll. some of us have bills to pay for besides the school related ones. and if you are telling i have no right to go to pharm school because i didnt decide on it right out of high school you can blow me.

plus i never said i was going to do all my classes online you tit. their are alot of military personnel getting their degrees through non-traditional means. explain the difference to me about taking a chem class for 8 hours on sat vs. 4 hours on tue and fri.

some of us are self motivated and dont need to sit in a lecture hall for 4 days a week to validate our education.

so i guess your saying that the U0fF program is in-valid cause you listen to the same lecture on the web vs. lecture hall.

why am i trying to reason with you.

you get your degree your way and i'll get my degree my way.

end of discussion

peace out

be safe,

brett

I don't think you can put UF into the same category as Creighton. We are completely different schools and UF was the first to do a distance education program. If you're in Orlando why don't you try and apply to the Distance campus? It'll save you a lot of money especially if you're here already!

 

[Añejo]

I guess I don't understand the difference between Creighton's web-based program and their campus based program. The course loads and sequences are identical, the exams are the same and given in the same manner, the lectures and notes are the same and given by the same profs (with the exception that web-based lectures are recorded), and both programs are fully accredited for the next six years. Rotations are set up as with any other pharmacy program.