Online Programs for Research Online

[chazell]

So I know I might get flamed for this...but I'm going to ask it anyways....

I currently work full time as a Police Officer, I have for about 5 years. I had considered maybe leaving the profession and perusing my MD/DO (just watch the news and you'll see why); however, I didn't really take the right path for that to begin with. I also decided that I was doing well with law enforcement and that it would be best for me to stay on my current path.

I had enlisted in the United States Army after high school, got out and came back home and started working in law enforcement. For us, a degree allows a 5.5% raise and will help with promotion. It also does not matter where you got the degree from or what it was in, so long as it was accredited. I fell into the University of Phoenix routine like many veterans do and got my Bachelors in Business Management.

I was still very interested in the medical field and wanted to further my education, so I began my Master's in Psychology through an online program. (Again, before you bash me for doing my Master's online, in terms of my current profession, so long as our degree is accredited, it will give me another pay boost and help in promotion.) My master's will really help me with promotion at work since it's uncommon to have anything higher than a bachelors. Many of my co-workers also have degrees in programs such as business or criminal justice, so psychology gives me a different perspective as well.

I would like to obtain my PhD in Psychology one of these days, but I'm not too sure in what specialization. I've debated I/O Psych because it would further my knowledge and capabilities to promote, such as to Chief of Police. I also have a desire to conduct psychology based research and would like to do some research in addition to working in law enforcement. Just about every aspect of psychology interests me (I/O, health, forensic, etc.) so I'm not set on one thing. I also have no desire to be a forensic psychologist and give expert testimony. It may sound funny but most officers hate going to court.

The reason I pursued my Master's online versus on campus is a scheduling thing. Between working shift work, mandatory overtime, mandatory court appearances, it's very difficult to make a set time commitment and be there every week for an extended period of time. Taking courses online allows me to study between these obligations. That being said, I know online programs get bashed on here, especially for clinical programs, which I understand. My question for people here is, based on the information I have given you and my desire to do research later down the road, are there any online PhD programs that would help me achieve this? Like I said, I don't plan on doing clinical work, I would like to obtain my PhD for personal achievement, the possibility of promotion, and to conduct part time research. Also, I know my online masters will help me in my current field, but would it do anything for me in the field of psychology on its own, without a PhD.

Thank you for any insight, I greatly appreciate it.

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[Justanothergrad]

I'm yet to see an online program for psychology that produces clinicians/psychologists/therapists that are worth a lick of salt. The training tends to be really sub-par because the hour commitment needed to get a good clinical training experience is a lot greater than is able to be required/given online.

 

[chazell]

I'm yet to see an online program for psychology that produces clinicians/psychologists/therapists that are worth a lick of salt. The training tends to be really sub-par because the hour commitment needed to get a good clinical training experience is a lot greater than is able to be required/given online.

Thanks, that's what I've been reading on this site. I'm not wanting to do any clinical work though. The degree will help me in my current profession, so it's not a complete waste for me. What I'm trying to do is see if it's possible to use it to do research as well, nothing clinical. Maybe I don't quite understand the process though...to do research must you be a clinical psychologist...?

 

[chazell]

You're not going to learn how to conduct quality research from an online program. The best way to do that is to actually be in a lab and doing it for a significant amount of time. A doctoral degree is simply not amenable to online education.

Thanks for your input. I saw a couple people on this forum giving advice to people to get a doctorate from a university in the UK or Australia versus an online PhD program in the states. How would that be different that an online PhD (US) if you're not physically in a lab in either?

 

[Justanothergrad]

Thanks, that's what I've been reading on this site. I'm not wanting to do any clinical work though. The degree will help me in my current profession, so it's not a complete waste for me. What I'm trying to do is see if it's possible to use it to do research as well, nothing clinical. Maybe I don't quite understand the process though...to do research must you be a clinical psychologist...?

Sure, but if you are interested in clinically-related populations (forensic & health you mention, for instance) for study and are considering a degree based online to get that, you are going to have a weak background- even if you 'just' want to do research. As said above, the research training isn't going to be top notch either. If the program is online, you are not going to get the top tiers of training in any area (research, practice, self-loathing, whatever).

 

[PsyDr]

A few problems:

1) A great part of learning research comes from interactions with people who do this professionally. We learn from interacting with others, who have made all the mistakes we have, have interacted with tons of other people working on similar problems , etc. There are a ton of fundamentals one has to learn. One stupid data entry error can skew things. I have made tons of errors only to have a professor take one look at it and say that there was a flaw. Or indicate that the question I was working on had been explored in 1971 and was abandoned because it doesn't work, or that Joe from Ohio State just submitted a full paper that encompassed everything I did. None of this is just published. It is knowledge that comes from interacting with others.

2) Online degrees are held in poor regard. If I went to an online school that gave out diplomas that read, "police officer", you would probably say something like "that's not how police training is done" and "just because you have a piece of paper doesn't make you a police officer" and "no you can't just get an online piece of paper, buy a gun, and paint your car black and white. There are laws." You would also probably be frustrated when someone says "I cant just quit my job and go to the police academy. I have bills and a family and a soccer game at 3PM, so I can only do online police academy stuff". Same goes for psychologists.

3) A lot of research is getting funding. Funding comes from grants. Grant proposals have a section called a "biosketch" which indicates where you trained, what you have done, and why the funding source should reasonably expect you to produce something with their money. In a traditional setting, you'd indicate that you studied with a "name" in the field, published some stuff with him, then developed your own line of research, published some stuff there with consultation with the name, and now you are going to go at it alone. Competition is fierce, because: NIH requirements, non-tenured professors' livelihood largely depends on them getting grants to pay their salary, etc.

4) I have no idea how you would obtain IRB approval without either an academic or clinical affiliation. No IRB approval, no one will publish your work.

5) Obtaining data on research subjects can be considered a licensed activity in some states.

6) How long till you slip up and call yourself a psychologist in a state where that is protected title? Cause I can see that destroying one's career.

 

[chazell]

You would not be able to do that without relocating to that location. The whole point is that doctoral study is a full-time, in-person endeavor. There are no short-cuts.

Ah, gotchya. Okay thanks.

Thanks for everyone's input thus far, I greatly appreciate it. Also, I don't mean to be argumentative if that's how I'm coming across online...these are the types of things the school's don't tell you, so I'm trying to determine what's actually possible and likely...so I apologize beforehand if I ask a lot of questions.

 

[chazell]

Sure, but if you are interested in clinically-related populations (forensic & health you mention, for instance) for study and are considering a degree based online to get that, you are going to have a weak background- even if you 'just' want to do research. As said above, the research training isn't going to be top notch either. If the program is online, you are not going to get the top tiers of training in any area (research, practice, self-loathing, whatever).

Okay, thanks the information, I must have read the posts out of context.

A few problems:

1) A great part of learning research comes from interactions with people who do this professionally. We learn from interacting with others, who have made all the mistakes we have, have interacted with tons of other people working on similar problems , etc. There are a ton of fundamentals one has to learn. One stupid data entry error can skew things. I have made tons of errors only to have a professor take one look at it and say that there was a flaw. Or indicate that the question I was working on had been explored in 1971 and was abandoned because it doesn't work, or that Joe from Ohio State just submitted a full paper that encompassed everything I did. None of this is just published. It is knowledge that comes from interacting with others.

2) Online degrees are held in poor regard. If I went to an online school that gave out diplomas that read, "police officer", you would probably say something like "that's not how police training is done" and "just because you have a piece of paper doesn't make you a police officer" and "no you can't just get an online piece of paper, buy a gun, and paint your car black and white. There are laws." You would also probably be frustrated when someone says "I cant just quit my job and go to the police academy. I have bills and a family and a soccer game at 3PM, so I can only do online police academy stuff". Same goes for psychologists.

3) A lot of research is getting funding. Funding comes from grants. Grant proposals have a section called a "biosketch" which indicates where you trained, what you have done, and why the funding source should reasonably expect you to produce something with their money. In a traditional setting, you'd indicate that you studied with a "name" in the field, published some stuff with him, then developed your own line of research, published some stuff there with consultation with the name, and now you are going to go at it alone. Competition is fierce, because: NIH requirements, non-tenured professors' livelihood largely depends on them getting grants to pay their salary, etc.

4) I have no idea how you would obtain IRB approval without either an academic or clinical affiliation. No IRB approval, no one will publish your work.

5) Obtaining data on research subjects can be considered a licensed activity in some states.

6) How long till you slip up and call yourself a psychologist in a state where that is protected title? Cause I can see that destroying one's career.

Thanks for putting it into that context, makes it easier to understand on my end. So are there not really any part time research positions within academia? Also, there wouldn’t be any slip up on the title, I’ve already reviewed the licensing requirements in California. Trust me, with being a veteran and seeing all of the Stolen Valor stuff online, I’m not about to take credit for something I didn’t earn.

 

[chazell]

So basically what it's sounding like is, absent a degree from a top B&M school, I don't stand a chance in doing anything in the medical/psychology field, even on a part time basis.

 

[erg923]

The degree will help me in my current profession

How?

Dont make things more complicated or harder than they need to be. Emulate the paths that have allowed your superiors to get them to where they are. What degree(s) does your department's chief have? Is that even what got he/she there? Not likely, if I were to venture a guess.

Google people who hold postions within a law enforcement organization that you would like to hold. What experiences did they get. What academics did they pursue? Now, how many have online phd from the Univesity of "insert online school here?"

 

[Ollie123]

Depends what you mean by "part time". That's a tough sell in research if you are expecting a salary...most people I know doing "part time" research are folks who are full-time elsewhere and doing it on their own time...either out of sheer interest, for purposes of career advancement or for the sake of maintaining an academic connection. An online PhD isn't really going to qualify you to do a whole lot. Could you get hired as an RA? Probably, but so could someone with a bachelor's and the full-time pay is only around 30k. If they have money to hire someone...chances are they are doing kinds of research you won't be able to get experience with in an online program, so why would they hire you? The research field is extremely competitive and you'd be at pretty much the bottom of the barrel, with likely very few marketable skills - not to mention the bias against online degrees (admittedly those are not really independent issues).

I don't think you need to go to a top B&M school to have a career that allows you to do some research. I do think an online school is not the way to go if you want to be involved in research. If its an online school just out of interest and for personal satisfaction...I get it. I don't think its worth the money and I can't approve of it because such programs devalue the field and harm everyone else's reputation...but I get it. I think its always a poor choice if you actually want to "work" in the field though.

 

[chazell]

How?

Dont make things more complicated or harder than they need to be. Emulate the paths that have allowed your superiors to get them to where they are. What degree(s) does your department's chief have? Is that even what got he/she there? Not likely, if I were to venture a guess.

Google people who hold positions within a law enforcement organization that you would like to hold. What experiences did they get. What academics did they pursue? Now, how many have online phd from the Univesity of "insert online school here."

A Master's or a PhD in and of itself won't get you a promotion; however, higher education is highly desirable, especially with very competitive promotional processes. My current chief has a Master's Degree and all the Chief's in my area that I know of have Master's Degrees as well. Yes successes in the workplace, specialty assignments, tenure, and job related training also play large factors, but it's the whole package.

Having my master's no doubt will help me not only with the knowledge attained, but with having the degree and the promotional process. Also, a Bachelors degree gives me a 5.5% raise, where a master's gives me a 10% raise, so it's a monetary factor as well. Also, a Master's allows me to attain a certificate from the state (the state issues certificates called Basic, Intermediate, and Advanced based on several criteria) faster than if I did not have one.

In terms of a PhD on top of the masters, it won't give me any additional pay or further certificates from the state; however, I still feel that it will help in a promotional process because it's additional education that I have, probably more than others. Also, by furthering my knowledge, especially in I/O Psychology where it would relate to being a Chief of Police, the knowledge gained can only help me as I move up to higher positions within my department, even if I didn't use it for research or clinical care in Psychology.

 

[chazell]

Depends what you mean by "part time". That's a tough sell in research if you are expecting a salary...most people I know doing "part time" research are folks who are full-time elsewhere and doing it on their own time...either out of sheer interest, for purposes of career advancement or for the sake of maintaining an academic connection. An online PhD isn't really going to qualify you to do a whole lot. Could you get hired as an RA? Probably, but so could someone with a bachelor's and the full-time pay is only around 30k. If they have money to hire someone...chances are they are doing kinds of research you won't be able to get experience with in an online program, so why would they hire you? The research field is extremely competitive and you'd be at pretty much the bottom of the barrel, with likely very few marketable skills - not to mention the bias against online degrees (admittedly those are not really independent issues).

I don't think you need to go to a top B&M school to have a career that allows you to do some research. I do think an online school is not the way to go if you want to be involved in research. If its an online school just out of interest and for personal satisfaction...I get it. I don't think its worth the money and I can't approve of it because such programs devalue the field and harm everyone else's reputation...but I get it. I think its always a poor choice if you actually want to "work" in the field though.

In terms of part time, I wouldn't be expecting large compensation, as I have my full time career...that's why I was only looking at the possibility of doing it part time. Yeah I saw some RA positions and a BS/BA was the minimum, some recommended a Master's, but that's about it. Yeah, I guess the point you make of a large research project with a lot of money is going to look for highly qualified candidates is a good one that I didn't really consider.

==============

On somewhat of a different note, what is your take in regards to online PhD's in general, not specifically psychology? So for example, say a criminal justice/criminology PhD attained online that I only wish to use for promotion and skills/knowledge attained to apply towards my current career? Later down the road, probably towards the end of my career, I would like to either teach at the community college/university level and/or the police academy in Criminal Justice. Do you think an online PhD in something criminal justice related would be better suited for me? Or do you still think it's a waste? I went the psychology route for my Master's because of my high interest in it, that I was told by superior ranking officers within my department that attaining education in fields other than criminal justice/criminology is desirable because it's different than what most bring to the table, and my desire to do some research would best be benefited by Psychology over criminal justice.

 

[Sendtrees]

The OP probably knows what he/she is talking about, re an online "PhD" in anything helping with promotions within law enforcement. We can't really dispute that. But the other question, can he/she do anything *in psychology* with such a degree, the answer is probably not. The other thing is, OP, this is a clinical psych thread and there may be better information on I/O discussion boards.

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't think online coursework can adequately train people to clinical work, I believe it is even worse in preparing people to do research. PSYDR was right on, you really need institutional support to even conduct research for the most part. You need more than that to first learn how to do it properly.

 

[chazell]

Okay, thank you everyone for your input. It appears given my current situation, this is probably not a possible route for me. Thanks.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Online only education at the doctoral level is joke compared to what a Ph.D. is meant to be (the highest level of expertise and achievement in a field). You would likely end up learning watered down information and paying for the degree. I highly doubt a university would hire you to teach with an online degree, especially given that there is no shortage of qualified adjuncts with real degrees trying to make it into academia.

This is my take re: online doctoral education as well. Given its current setup, I just can't see how it wouldn't be watered down, so to speak. Heck, even the largely-online programs that have associated, semi-regular in-person components are controversial and contentious (and tend to currently result in poor outcomes).

Pursuing some of these interests in your own spare time could be worthwhile simply from an intellectual curiosity standpoint, but in my opinion, an online degree to try and acquire some type of formal training in the area just isn't worth the (likely very high) price tag.

 

[SallyStudent]

This has been one of the most frustrating discussions I have ever read in my life! I realize that everyone here has good intentions but I felt sorry for Chazell. The OP is a grown adult and has likely assessed the need/desire for said sought degree. Why must this person be interrogated before any questions are answered? I was hoping to find some answers myself but basically, the message sent is, "We are not answering this question because we don't like it." Ugh!

 

[psych.meout]

This has been one of the most frustrating discussions I have ever read in my life! I realize that everyone here has good intentions but I felt sorry for Chazell. The OP is a grown adult and has likely assessed the need/desire for said sought degree. Why must this person be interrogated before any questions are answered? I was hoping to find some answers myself but basically, the message sent is, "We are not answering this question because we don't like it." Ugh!

1. They did answer questions, which is why so many actual psychologists here gave their opinions about online programs and facts about outcomes and careers.

2. Questions were asked of OP to obtain further information about what they want to do. Have you really never experienced a situation where someone asks questions and the respondents ask questions of their own to obtain needed information before answering?

 

[WisNeuro]

Oh, we answered the question. You just didn't like the answers because they ran contrary to your pre-conceived notions. Happens all the time. Welcome to 2016.

 

[erg923]

This has been one of the most frustrating discussions I have ever read in my life! I realize that everyone here has good intentions but I felt sorry for Chazell. The OP is a grown adult and has likely assessed the need/desire for said sought degree. Why must this person be interrogated before any questions are answered? I was hoping to find some answers myself but basically, the message sent is, "We are not answering this question because we don't like it." Ugh!

What question that he asked was not answered?

 

[deleted343839]

This has been one of the most frustrating discussions I have ever read in my life! I realize that everyone here has good intentions but I felt sorry for Chazell. The OP is a grown adult and has likely assessed the need/desire for said sought degree. Why must this person be interrogated before any questions are answered? I was hoping to find some answers myself but basically, the message sent is, "We are not answering this question because we don't like it." Ugh!

The OP received some very thoughtful answers about why online graduate/professional training is not a good use of time or money. The truth is that plenty of "grown adults" who have had little exposure to a particular field may get misleading ideas about whether or how to seek training in said field. So far I have never heard of a well informed decision to pursue an online PhD (though plenty of well meaning people consider the idea). So if the question is "should I get an online degree from ABC University or XYZ University" then the answer is that it's irrelevant because you're asking the wrong question.

I get that it can be frustrating when you read things that undermine the appeal of online PhD programs. These programs, by necessity, are savvy with their marketing, and the convenience factor is a huge selling point for many people. But it would be misleading to engage you or anyone else in a discussion about how best to choose an online degree program. The answer is no, actually there is never a good reason for spending money (yours or the taxpayer's) on substandard training.

Now, if you have specific questions not answered by any of the comments above (especially PSYDR's reply dated 6/10/15), ask away, but bear in mind that you are not going to get a favorable opinion of online degree programs from anyone who is licensed and currently working in the field.

 

[temppsych123]

Given what OP has said about the benefits in law enforcement of getting a higher degree in terms of professional advancement and funding, even if you aren't able to actually practice with that degree outside of law enforcement, perhaps getting a master's first would be a good idea rather than looking directly into online phd programs? An online masters is a much shorter time commitment than an online PhD, you can see how you like it, and go from there. If you're interested in ultimately doing research or teaching once you leave law enforcement, I would look into B&M schools near you that have programs relevant to what you're interested in (I/O, forensic, etc.) and see if they ever employ people for research or teaching positions with the type of credentials you're looking at receiving. For example, the odds of you getting a tenure track research faculty position with an online PhD are slim to none, but if you want to take on a course here or there about the intersection between psychology and the law, for example, schools may be willing to hire someone with some type of credential and also a lot of lived experience in the field (obviously this will depend on the school). I would investigate that route while looking into master's programs, if I were you! Hope that's helpful!

 

[singasongofjoy]

If we're thinking about this from a purely practical standpoint of you think that getting a PhD will give you an even greater edge than a Master's with regard to promotion at work... I can definitely see the sense in getting a masters- pay raise, promotion potential. But to go on to a PhD- a PhD is a crazy amount of work. That time could be better spent. I don't know about online programs, but all the PhD psych (and other related fields) are definitely more than 40+ hours per week of related work. I probably averaged about 70 hours / week. If you're not going to get a pay raise with a PhD, then it would probably be more efficient for you to spend that time doing things more immediately related to your law enforcement job- like finding or initiating new projects/outreach, applying for grants for police outreach, etc. Spend that time being even more visible in the community and coming up with innovative ways you can improve it from within your role. I feel like from a promotional standpoint, spending a couple thousand hours over a few years doing that type of work would take you WAY further than spending that same time with your head in the psych books. Now if you want to take additional psych classes just for funsies, by all means go ahead- I'm always a fan of feeding intellectual curiosity. But I think there are more effective ways to get promotion (and the recognition and appreciation that makes people want to promote you) than a PhD.

With regard to research, if you're interested in bringing research into law enforcement, there may still be ways to do that. Identify a problem that you think needs more research. Get the relevant people/superiors at your workplace on board first (that part is critical). If there's a major university near you with a doctoral program, set up a meeting and say "here's a problem/question we are interested in learning more about to try to make/do xyz better. We would love to have you involved. Interested?" Sure, it might be more complicated than that. But if you're really serious about research as a genuine interest, not as a means to a PhD, you could probably find ways to get involved, even if you're not the primary investigator (because you'd need someone associated with a university or somewhere with an IRB board for that, and probably also go throught he state's IRB, and you'd need people with background in research design etc).

Best of luck!