Ontario pharmacies might start cutting jobs.

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Good I hope so. In the end, they spoke to me in English...evidently they need to speak to me more than I need to talk to them.

I accidentally took a wrong turn in Ottawa and wound up over this river and into France...or Quebec...or whatever the hell they called it. I mean...the stop signs didn't say "stop." I'm 40 feet (or meters...what the **** ever) away from an English speaking city and the stupid ****ers are oblivious to the fact that a non-French speaker might accidentally mosey over the border. I got scared, made a u-turn, and came right back over the bridge. I was squealing my tires and ****. French people scare the piss out of me.

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We tried that once. Didn't work out too well. Well, actually, we attacked and tried to invade BRITAIN, but the Canadians conveniently forget that they weren't a country yet and proclaim that they defeated the Americans in the War of 1812...even though the US won the War of 1812 against BRITAIN. As if the Battle of New Orleans and the Battle of Baltimore didn't happen...lmao...

But they should join the US. Their currency is stable. It'd be like the hot chick marrying the dork with a good credit score.


And the brits will stil claim we fought dirty... not like the true gentlemen who march with guns in rows.. how stupid are they? Hide and hit them with canons!!

Wait.. that's what jihad soldiers are doing to us while we try to fight them under the Geneva pact..
 
I say we sanction Canada and see how long they survive.
 
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And the brits will stil claim we fought dirty... not like the true gentlemen who march with guns in rows.. how stupid are they? Hide and hit them with canons!!

That was the Revolutionary War. 1812 they wizened up. They hired Injuns to launch guerrilla warfare.

The tale of the 1812 war in Canada is hilarious. They actually think that the only theater was the Canadian theater. And that the US was at war with Canada. The US lost one theater of war badly, but beat the piss out of the Brits in the South. The US got EXACTLY what it wanted. The Brits wouldn't force Americans into service in their Navy, the Brits wouldn't keep sending the Injuns (First Nations folk to you Cannucks) to attack US settlements, and the US was free to expand West. The attempted invasion of Canada was just a calculated sideshow to piss the Brits off.

**** pissed me off when I heard their weird ass version of the thing...
 
That was the Revolutionary War. 1812 they wizened up. They hired Injuns to launch guerrilla warfare.

The tale of the 1812 war in Canada is hilarious. They actually think that the only theater was the Canadian theater. And that the US was at war with Canada. The US lost one theater of war badly, but beat the piss out of the Brits in the South. The US got EXACTLY what it wanted. The Brits wouldn't force Americans into service in their Navy, the Brits wouldn't keep sending the Injuns (First Nations folk to you Cannucks) to attack US settlements, and the US was free to expand West.

**** pissed me off when I heard their weird ass version of the thing...


Dood..in 1812... they did the same thing. We hid and shot them with cannons as they marched.
 
The hell did Canada do to you?

The only thing I don't like is their revisionist version of the War of 1812.


I don't know...I feel like they're getting a free ride out of us somehow...

I had a canadian classmate..when I said "how come y'all didn't join the US?" he said..."How come y'all didn't join Canada?" I was like.. "dood..get a grip."
 
One time, I was in Victoria, BC, beautiful town.. we missed the ferry back to Seattle and were forced to spend a night there... I say it's a conspiracy trying to get more tourism revenue.
 
I accidentally took a wrong turn in Ottawa and wound up over this river and into France...or Quebec...or whatever the hell they called it. I mean...the stop signs didn't say "stop." I'm 40 feet (or meters...what the **** ever) away from an English speaking city and the stupid ****ers are oblivious to the fact that a non-French speaker might accidentally mosey over the border. I got scared, made a u-turn, and came right back over the bridge. I was squealing my tires and ****. French people scare the piss out of me.

The Quebecois have a rather...eccentric view on things. They want to be their own country, even though they would pretty much implode upon themselves were it to ever happen. They have their own flag, but that's about as far as it goes in terms of being set up like a sovereign nation.

Z, don't let a bad experience in Montreal sour you on Canada. The rest of Canada is full of honest, decent, English-speaking folk.

Oh, and **** the Habs. **** the Senators too while we're at it.
 
One time, I was in Victoria, BC, beautiful town.. we missed the ferry back to Seattle and were forced to spend a night there... I say it's a conspiracy trying to get more tourism revenue.

Aren't BC and AB sitting on more oil than they know what to do with? What would they need tourism for when they've got oil?
 
Aren't BC and AB sitting on more oil than they know what to do with? What would they need tourism for when they've got oil?


We need to attack soon!!! :smuggrin:

Oh I didn't really have a bad experience in Canada except dang what's up with all the smokers in Montreal...they smoke like they want lung cancer or something. I hope they were smoking American cigs.. mo money for us and our farmers! :thumbup:
 
I went into Canada through upstate NY heading towards Montreal. And everyone was talking to me in French. It pissed me off a bit...

You know, French is an official language of Canada. Pourquoi est-ce que vous n'aimez pas le français? :laugh:
 
And heeeeeere come the death threats!

She has a panic button on her desk. Police do drive-bys past her house to make sure she's safe. Her office has been relocated to a more secure setting. Welcome to the dangerous life of Helen Stevenson, the bureaucrat spearheading Ontario's controversial drug reforms.

The assistant deputy minister of health has been the target of death threats and thousands of angry letters, emails and phone calls.

While I can't say I condone it, I don't pity her one bit. If the dummy isn't intelligent enough to see how stupid the entire system is and that it needs torn down and built from scratch like a mornin' biscuit...and then proceeds to use said nescience to screw with peoples' livelihoods...she should expect death threats...
 
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I was thinking about this **** when I was playing basketball today. I was thinking about what happened in the US with retail pharmacy. What, exactly, made it so bad...and what things the Canadians do that make the actual practice up there so much better.

So tell me if I'm crazy on this one, Cannucks.

Shoppers' Drug Mart is widely considered an "evil corporation." They know that they can't win a battle of public perception. Yet, they are the ones slinging the most vitriol. And it is widely considered that they are currently "losing" the public perception wars.

It makes me wonder.

*Puts on tin-foil hat*

In the US, the same thing essentially happened. Reimbursement rates have been slashed over and over again. It's to the point where a minimal amount is made on many scripts. Many Medicaid scripts are dispensed at a loss.

What this did was make retail pharmacy services much less profitable. So bad that we are entering our 3rd decade of the systematic destruction of independent pharmacy. Retail pharmacy in the US is DOMINATED by large corporations. The reason is that pharmacy in the US is being transformed into a loss-leader segment. (I.E., Walmart will dispense a month of many generics, like propranolol or lisinopril, for $4.)

So...

....

Do you guys think that maybe Shoppers is being ingeniously insidious on this? While they will lose a ton of money up front, LONG TERM, this will empower them to control the market as they have the secondary sales potential to go ahead and allow their pharmacies to be loss leaders in order to increase foot traffic to the profitable parts of their stores (everything else).

To be brief - part of me wonders if Shoppers' has studied the economic model of Walgreens. Perhaps they are so overtly against the bill...because they know it will only reinforce support for it.

---------------


Or I'm just nuts...
 
And heeeeeere come the death threats!

Death threats...not against a political person, like Health Minister Deb Matthews who has said provocatively nasty things about pharmacists in the media, but against a bureaucrat most people haven't heard of...

Hmm...

Ms. Stevenson has told reporters she received death threats while working on the 2007 legislation; she gives speeches with a plainclothes Ontario Provincial Police escort.

Oh really??
 
My favorite thing about Helen Stevenson is that she loves to play the victim, she claims to have felt threatened by a postcard that had a picture of a tombstone with the inscription "RIP Independent Pharmacists of Ontario".....pfft
 
My favorite thing about Helen Stevenson is that she loves to play the victim, she claims to have felt threatened by a postcard that had a picture of a tombstone with the inscription "RIP Independent Pharmacists of Ontario".....pfft

More on these threats:

Helen Stevenson, the assistant deputy minister of health, reportedly has a panic button on her desk and has been moved to a secure setting after receiving angry letters, emails and calls. The majority of those threats appear to date back to 2006, which left the Conservatives and New Democrats asking why they've come to light now.

"This is old news that is being brought forward right now to make the pharmacists look bad at a time when the issue is escalating to the point where we don't know where this is going to end," said New Democrat France Gelinas.

"I can't imagine who can win out of this. I really don't know what (the government) is doing."

Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak accused the Liberals of being more interested in "smearing our neighbourhood pharmacists" than coming up with a compromise everyone could agree with.
 
I was thinking about this **** when I was playing basketball today. I was thinking about what happened in the US with retail pharmacy. What, exactly, made it so bad...and what things the Canadians do that make the actual practice up there so much better.

So tell me if I'm crazy on this one, Cannucks.

Shoppers' Drug Mart is widely considered an "evil corporation." They know that they can't win a battle of public perception. Yet, they are the ones slinging the most vitriol. And it is widely considered that they are currently "losing" the public perception wars.

It makes me wonder.

*Puts on tin-foil hat*

In the US, the same thing essentially happened. Reimbursement rates have been slashed over and over again. It's to the point where a minimal amount is made on many scripts. Many Medicaid scripts are dispensed at a loss.

What this did was make retail pharmacy services much less profitable. So bad that we are entering our 3rd decade of the systematic destruction of independent pharmacy. Retail pharmacy in the US is DOMINATED by large corporations. The reason is that pharmacy in the US is being transformed into a loss-leader segment. (I.E., Walmart will dispense a month of many generics, like propranolol or lisinopril, for $4.)

So...

....

Do you guys think that maybe Shoppers is being ingeniously insidious on this? While they will lose a ton of money up front, LONG TERM, this will empower them to control the market as they have the secondary sales potential to go ahead and allow their pharmacies to be loss leaders in order to increase foot traffic to the profitable parts of their stores (everything else).

To be brief - part of me wonders if Shoppers' has studied the economic model of Walgreens. Perhaps they are so overtly against the bill...because they know it will only reinforce support for it.

---------------


Or I'm just nuts...

Ding ding ding!!!! I'm bringing Jesse Ventura in on this one.
 
These videos are AWESOME.


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCW00BsZ_Cs[/YOUTUBE]



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omuEOdOj1iw[/YOUTUBE]
 
Yay for Cheri DiNovo! She's the lady in WVU's 2nd video in previous post, and she's my MPP - I've voted for her twice.

Cheri is a former street kid who used to smuggle drugs from California inside hollowed out Bibles. Then she found religion, became a minister, and performed some of the 1st gay marriages in Canada, before those were officially made legal - she was one of the people who helped push that.

When Sid Ryan went against us, I wasn't sure how the NDP was going to go - Sid has run (and lost) for the NDP a couple of times now. He's just one of many stupid enough to think this has anything to do with "Big Pharma."

Here's the latest propaganda from Deb Matthews. Bit depressing, seeing the deep pockets of the government rallied against us.
 
I don't know if Canada is the same as the US, but here the old people are the ones that ALWAYS vote. And the old people up there are angry that their pharmacists are going away.

Historically, Ontario has always voted liberal, and the McGuinty government has been in power for a long time. Furthermore, Deb Matthews, the Minister of Health and Long Term Care, is a Member of Provincial Parliament for London North Centre. This is where the University of Western Ontario is located, and it is also where most students reside. As you may know, students tend to vote for the liberal party. In fact, Deb Matthews won by a considerable margin in the last elections. Thus, there is little to be optimistic about with regards to change in the government, the best we can hope for is a negotiated outcome between Pharmacy and the government.

The question is, who will be representing Pharmacy? Is it going to be the big chains or the independents? Personally, I am hoping that the Faculty of Pharmacy and the students can somehow have their voices heard.
 
Historically, Ontario has always voted liberal, and the McGuinty government has been in power for a long time. Furthermore, Deb Matthews, the Minister of Health and Long Term Care, is a Member of Provincial Parliament for London North Centre. This is where the University of Western Ontario is located, and it is also where most students reside. As you may know, students tend to vote for the liberal party. In fact, Deb Matthews won by a considerable margin in the last elections. Thus, there is little to be optimistic about with regards to change in the government, the best we can hope for is a negotiated outcome between Pharmacy and the government.

The question is, who will be representing Pharmacy? Is it going to be the big chains or the independents? Personally, I am hoping that the Faculty of Pharmacy and the students can somehow have their voices heard.

Not to be mean, but y'all are a bunch of amateurs. The Ontario Pharmacists need to hire Karl Rove. He made Americans think it was a good idea to make George W. Bush the president. If he can do that, my God, by the time he is done up there, they'll be increasing your reimbursement and pharmacists won't have to pay taxes anymore.
 
Okay for folks in the Toronto area, there's going to be a press conference TODAY: from my inbox:

Press Conference: OCPh is holding an important press conference Thursday April 29th at 12:45 pm in the Queen's Park Media Studio Room 148 Main Legislative Building.

We are looking for as many pharmacists as possible to attend. Please bring lab coats with you. DO NOT WEAR THEM as you will not be allowed through security. Please arrive at 12:15 pm to allow time to get through security.

(Sorry about late notice - was at a Hep C conference yesterday til late; didn't check e-mail.)

I don't think we can afford Karl; however David Frum is looking for work...
 
the lady from CARP is just throwing out the same garbage
 
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CARP is a for-profit organization started by some media billionaire. Astro-turfing is more like it.

The re-imbursement model is a mess, as discussed above, and this just breaks it further rather than move towards a fix. Pharmacists have made a zillion submissions over the years trying to re-invent themselves in a more service-oriented fashion. Such submissions are moving, but _very_ slowly.

This is all a part of Ontario's single-pronged approach toward wiping out a $24 billion deficit, by cutting not even $1billion from the cost of generic drugs. Little do they realize that these savings are significantly less than that, since the government gets a good chunk of the money back from taxes almost right away.

Such is not the same when you give money to a multinational pharmaco: those dollars are effectively lost from the province forever.

Ontario could save far more by:
1) Actually enforcing Limited Use policies (Was a PPI prescribed before trialling an H2RA? Was Celebrex used before max strengths of APAP and listed NSAIDs? Did those Advair users actually fail a trial of Flovent??? If so, financially penalize the prescriber, they'll follow the money)
2) Delisting uneconomical things like statins for most cases of primary prevention
3) Only paying for thiazides as 1st line tx for HTN unless there's a good reason not to (diabetic, more than 1 agent req'd, etc).
4) Stop throwing 2g+ of metformin + 90mg of Gliclazide MR at people who are way above targets, your prayers will go unanswered.
5) Why are you still paying for Oxycontin instead of the cheaper and "less desirable" long-acting morphineSO4?
6) Don't pay for brand name ACEIs when we have plenty of generics with even better evidence
7) Don't pay for even more expensive ARBs until a trial of ACEIs has failed, or there's good reason for it
8) Why are you still paying anything for rosiglitazone? Pioglitazone is safer and cheaper
9) Ezetrol? Seriously? Is there any morbidity/mortality benefit for this?
10) Why pay for people to be on osteoclast-mediated bone resorption inhibitors for more than 5 years? There's no evidence for it, and good reasoning against bothering with it that long
11) Paying pharmacists for stuff they can do cheaper and likely better than others, like referring people to a qualified pharmacy to start them on insulin instead of a diabetes education centre with an appt 6 months in the future. You don't need an internist/endocrinologist to do 80% of this stuff.

(Doesn't simvastatin have better evidence than atorvastatin anyway? I need to look it up)

For those students that are out of an internship, write BC's jurisprudence exam, do their 1 month internship (with likely none of the BS that ON's requires), and then transfer your license wherever you like (except Quebec).
 
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CARP is a for-profit organization started by some media billionaire. Astro-turfing is more like it.

The re-imbursement model is a mess, as discussed above, and this just breaks it further rather than move towards a fix. Pharmacists have made a zillion submissions over the years trying to re-invent themselves in a more service-oriented fashion. Such submissions are moving, but _very_ slowly.

This is all a part of Ontario's single-pronged approach toward wiping out a $24 billion deficit, by cutting not even $1billion from the cost of generic drugs. Little do they realize that these savings are significantly less than that, since the government gets a good chunk of the money back from taxes almost right away.

Such is not the same when you give money to a multinational pharmaco: those dollars are effectively lost from the province forever.

Ontario could save far more by:
1) Actually enforcing Limited Use policies (Was a PPI prescribed before trialling an H2RA? Was Celebrex used before max strengths of APAP and listed NSAIDs? Did those Advair users actually fail a trial of Flovent??? If so, financially penalize the prescriber, they'll follow the money)
2) Delisting uneconomical things like statins for most cases of primary prevention
3) Only paying for thiazides as 1st line tx for HTN unless there's a good reason not to (diabetic, more than 1 agent req'd, etc).
4) Stop throwing 2g+ of metformin + 90mg of Gliclazide MR at people who are way above targets, your prayers will go unanswered.
5) Why are you still paying for Oxycontin instead of the cheaper and "less desirable" long-acting morphineSO4?
6) Don't pay for brand name ACEIs when we have plenty of generics with even better evidence
7) Don't pay for even more expensive ARBs until a trial of ACEIs has failed, or there's good reason for it
8) Why are you still paying anything for rosiglitazone? Pioglitazone is safer and cheaper
9) Ezetrol? Seriously? Is there any morbidity/mortality benefit for this?
10) Why pay for people to be on osteoclast-mediated bone resorption inhibitors for more than 5 years? There's no evidence for it, and good reasoning against bothering with it that long
11) Paying pharmacists for stuff they can do cheaper and likely better than others, like referring people to a qualified pharmacy to start them on insulin instead of a diabetes education centre with an appt 6 months in the future. You don't need an internist/endocrinologist to do 80% of this stuff.

(Doesn't simvastatin have better evidence than atorvastatin anyway? I need to look it up)

For those students that are out of an internship, write BC's jurisprudence exam, do their 1 month internship (with likely none of the BS that ON's requires), and then transfer your license wherever you like (except Quebec).

interesting ideas!! hopefully the US will incorporate some of them when the healthcare spending crisis hits us..
 
CARP is a for-profit organization started by some media billionaire. Astro-turfing is more like it.

The re-imbursement model is a mess, as discussed above, and this just breaks it further rather than move towards a fix. Pharmacists have made a zillion submissions over the years trying to re-invent themselves in a more service-oriented fashion. Such submissions are moving, but _very_ slowly.

This is all a part of Ontario's single-pronged approach toward wiping out a $24 billion deficit, by cutting not even $1billion from the cost of generic drugs. Little do they realize that these savings are significantly less than that, since the government gets a good chunk of the money back from taxes almost right away.

Such is not the same when you give money to a multinational pharmaco: those dollars are effectively lost from the province forever.

Ontario could save far more by:
1) Actually enforcing Limited Use policies (Was a PPI prescribed before trialling an H2RA? Was Celebrex used before max strengths of APAP and listed NSAIDs? Did those Advair users actually fail a trial of Flovent??? If so, financially penalize the prescriber, they'll follow the money)
2) Delisting uneconomical things like statins for most cases of primary prevention
3) Only paying for thiazides as 1st line tx for HTN unless there's a good reason not to (diabetic, more than 1 agent req'd, etc).
4) Stop throwing 2g+ of metformin + 90mg of Gliclazide MR at people who are way above targets, your prayers will go unanswered.
5) Why are you still paying for Oxycontin instead of the cheaper and "less desirable" long-acting morphineSO4?
6) Don't pay for brand name ACEIs when we have plenty of generics with even better evidence
7) Don't pay for even more expensive ARBs until a trial of ACEIs has failed, or there's good reason for it
8) Why are you still paying anything for rosiglitazone? Pioglitazone is safer and cheaper
9) Ezetrol? Seriously? Is there any morbidity/mortality benefit for this?
10) Why pay for people to be on osteoclast-mediated bone resorption inhibitors for more than 5 years? There's no evidence for it, and good reasoning against bothering with it that long
11) Paying pharmacists for stuff they can do cheaper and likely better than others, like referring people to a qualified pharmacy to start them on insulin instead of a diabetes education centre with an appt 6 months in the future. You don't need an internist/endocrinologist to do 80% of this stuff.

(Doesn't simvastatin have better evidence than atorvastatin anyway? I need to look it up)

For those students that are out of an internship, write BC's jurisprudence exam, do their 1 month internship (with likely none of the BS that ON's requires), and then transfer your license wherever you like (except Quebec).

Aren't the rest of the provinces also likely to follow Ontario's action?
 
Aren't the rest of the provinces also likely to follow Ontario's action?
BC hasn't yet, so it should be easier to find an internship there. I'd assume other provinces have similarly lax internship rules, it's Ontario (and probably Quebec) that try to make people jump through hoops, but labour mobility agreements mostly do away with that.

The fact is that internship in BC is 1 month, while it's 3 months in ON, so it should be:
a) Easier to find an internship in BC, since it doesn't cost as much to offer them
b) Even if you get a really crappy internship wage, it's only for 1 month instead of 3, and you can then make up the money more quickly as a licensed pharmacist.

Working for 1 month free, and then 2 months as a licensed pharmacist would earn you the same as doing a 3 month internship. Find an independent in the mountains within driving range of Whistler, bring/buy a good (human and/or gas powered) bike, and have fun for a few months, that's what I'd do ;). The independent probably wouldn't mind essentially training you for free for 1 month, and then taking off for 2 months.

The places in ON will continue doing internships again, they just won't pay as well. Why the heck would big corp pharmacies do something that would limit the supply of pharmacists? That works against them.

Regardless, SDM and Rexall aren't the only pharmacies out there. I'm not too fond of grocery stores either...
 
On Ontario's Ministry of Health website, the government is saying that Ontarians pay higher prices for some prescription medicines than Americans because of the professional allowances paid to pharmacists.

Most of Ontario's generic drugs are made here in Ontario. The generic drug industry employs 9,000 folks in this province.

Question: where are American generic drugs made? In America?

A pharmacist at the rally last Thursday told me he heard Apotex, the biggest generic manufacturer (5,000 jobs in Ontario) was threatening to locate its plants in India if this legislation goes through. I haven't been able to find corroboration of that, but ... interesting if the government, in its effort to nickel and dime pharmacists, ends up throwing thousands of Ontario jobs under the bus.

The rally was kinda discouraging, BTW. One single media outlet came to hear us. When we were posing in our labcoats in front of the legislature with the "stopcuts" signs, people were photographing us, and we'd ask, "What paper you from?" and they'd sheepishly reply they were from the CPhA, or some other Canadian pharmacist's organization. We were taking pictures of each other. Pretty sad.
 
On Ontario's Ministry of Health website, the government is saying that Ontarians pay higher prices for some prescription medicines than Americans because of the professional allowances paid to pharmacists.

Most of Ontario's generic drugs are made here in Ontario. The generic drug industry employs 9,000 folks in this province.

Question: where are American generic drugs made? In America?

A pharmacist at the rally last Thursday told me he heard Apotex, the biggest generic manufacturer (5,000 jobs in Ontario) was threatening to locate its plants in India if this legislation goes through. I haven't been able to find corroboration of that, but ... interesting if the government, in its effort to nickel and dime pharmacists, ends up throwing thousands of Ontario jobs under the bus.

The rally was kinda discouraging, BTW. One single media outlet came to hear us. When we were posing in our labcoats in front of the legislature with the "stopcuts" signs, people were photographing us, and we'd ask, "What paper you from?" and they'd sheepishly reply they were from the CPhA, or some other Canadian pharmacist's organization. We were taking pictures of each other. Pretty sad.

What a bunch of dip****s.

The reason our generics are cheaper are because they are already all made in India, there is no price point at which the generic manufacturers are pretty much told to charge for drugs (THIS is the real reason...****ing intellectual coward politicians), and the generic manufacturers compete against each other in such a vicious cutthroat manner that it drives prices way down.

God, they are stupid. How the **** can you people elect such *****s?
 
Correction: Most of Canada's drugs are made in Ontario. Teva&Apo have probably 80-90% of the market. Everyone else is a dwarf compared to them.
That's right, most of the profits from generic drugs across Canada end up in Ontario, with corporate income taxes (and all those other taxes) paid to the Ontario coffers.
I wouldn't be surprised if they not only moved the factories out of Ontario, but the head offices and operations too. Shoppers may very well do the same.

Ontario .gov doesn't seem to understand that the profits (and great employment) from these Canadian-wide operations end up in Ontario. Now by opening up this whole can of worms, they'll lost out on it all.

It's like Michigan passing a law that makes car manufacturing less profitable, or Alaska banning future oil exploration in the state. Why would you dismantle your jurisdiction's biggest industries?
 
I'm crap at politics - dunno if any of you can explain this. WHY would the government take direction from an inexperienced bureaucrat who was inexplicably parachuted into a very high position in the Ministry of Health four years ago?

(Just to show you how weird it is that Helen Stevenson is an Assistant Deputy Minister after less than four years in the MOHLTC: in my ministry, the guy who hired me 13 years ago was recently promoted to Assistant Deputy Minister, after more than 30 years' service. Of course, it could be argued that Helen Stevenson is overflowing with visionary genius, earning every penny of that $275,000/year.)

Pharmacists have been saying over and over for months now that if the Ministry of Health wants to save money, what they should do is expand the use of generic drugs. The province spends 75% of its drug budget on brand name drugs even though those are only 37% of drugs dispensed. So in Ontario, 63% of the prescriptions filled are generics. If we expanded to the American average, which I hear is 75%, it'd save the taxpayers some funds.

But instead the ministry choses to take direction from within, from people who are not health care professionals.

Is it a turf thing?
 
I'm crap at politics - dunno if any of you can explain this. WHY would the government take direction from an inexperienced bureaucrat who was inexplicably parachuted into a very high position in the Ministry of Health four years ago?

(Just to show you how weird it is that Helen Stevenson is an Assistant Deputy Minister after less than four years in the MOHLTC: in my ministry, the guy who hired me 13 years ago was recently promoted to Assistant Deputy Minister, after more than 30 years' service. Of course, it could be argued that Helen Stevenson is overflowing with visionary genius, earning every penny of that $275,000/year.)

Pharmacists have been saying over and over for months now that if the Ministry of Health wants to save money, what they should do is expand the use of generic drugs. The province spends 75% of its drug budget on brand name drugs even though those are only 37% of drugs dispensed. So in Ontario, 63% of the prescriptions filled are generics. If we expanded to the American average, which I hear is 75%, it'd save the taxpayers some funds.

But instead the ministry choses to take direction from within, from people who are not health care professionals.

Is it a turf thing?

Oh, I'm sure they know exactly what they are doing. Screwing the pharmacists is likely calculated as the best option from a political standpoint. They can't literally be this stupid.
 
Turns out the government had its hand in the cookie jar.

For the past four years, Ontario has been buying brand drugs for well below the going rate. But an elaborate payment system has been set up to prevent anyone else from finding out exactly how much the government has been paying....

Helen Stevenson, the high-profile bureaucrat in charge of drug policy, will often refuse to list new medications on the provincial formulary, and in some cases threaten to delist drugs already on it. Her justification usually comes down to price and value relative to the competition. But then the drugs will wind up being listed, ostensibly at the same price as anywhere else.

In reality, the government pays much less than the listed price, because the companies return part of the money through rebates. To avoid other governments and private drug plans demanding the same deal, those rebates are kept confidential.

To maintain that secrecy, both the government and the industry have had to spend a lot of time fighting freedom-of-information requests. But in late February, acting on orders from the province's Information and Privacy Commissioner, the government finally released a big chunk of records...

For the past 4 years, while pharmacies were having to account for every penny they received in professional allowances, getting slapped down with accusations of receiving "rebates" if their paperwork wasn't in order, the government has been secretly receiving payments from brand-name companies.

Seems it's better to be a bureaucrat than a professional with skills.
 
Yes, you can read plenty more of that at http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onipc/doc/2010/2010canlii2461/2010canlii2461.html
It's funny, it only hit the news a month or so ago, but was publicly available in this form in January.
I am a bit curious to know who's filing them, I thought it was pharmacists all along, but for all I know, it could've been Quebec wondering why they weren't getting the best deal they were supposed to be getting.
I also share the same questions about just how HS got to her position. She was some kind of consultant in Switzerland, and then within a year or so of coming here (and no seeming health card background), became Drug System Secretariat?
All I could find in all of my googling was the name of the company in Switzerland, and even then, I couldn't find much of a track record.
I found some other interesting stuff, but nothing worth making more public than it already is/was.
 
It's extremely curious, Someguy. I'm doing a part-time PharmD, and for the Health Administration course, I read and analyzed Bill 102, the Transparent Drug System for Patients Act, that was passed in 06. That was the bill that brought us Medscheck (a good thing), and changed Section 8 to Section 16.

The huge change brought by this bill was the creation of the position of Executive Officer, public drug programs. This person has the power to list or delist drugs from the ODB Formulary, determine interchangeability, fine pharmacists or manufacturers for non-compliance, and also enter into agreements with drug manufacturers in order to acquire volume discounts.

Previous to Bill 102, the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care had jurisdiction over the Drug Benefit Formulary. Bill 102 handed that power over to the Executive Officer. That person is Helen Stevenson, who subsequently was also made ADM.

About HS, backing up a bit: in 2005, she was picked from the private sector by then-health minister George Smitherman to be Team Leader, Drug System Secretariat, consisting of a team of 6 people who travelled throughout Ontario talking to various stakeholders in the health care system: drs, pts, pharmacists, advocacy groups, groups like Cancer Care Ontario and suchlike. She asked folks questions about how they would improve the drug system in Ontario, and prepared a report for Minister Smitherman. This report provided the foundation upon which Bill 102 was based and has never been made public. I deduced the kinds of questions she asked indirectly, from PDFs put on-line by various groups posting their reports to the Drug System Secretariat.

I couldn't figure out why George Smitherman formed this group in the 1st place. But if you send a couple of people around the province asking them how the government should improve the health care system, it provides the foundation, the impetus for change. Like, "You told us your concerns, and here's what we've done to address those concerns."

So then Bill 102 was written, then passed, the position of Executive Officer was created, and Helen Stevenson was put in that position. The opposition screamed about this (I read the Hansard transcripts) but furious George got his way.

So that's how we have someone who is not a health care professional but an MBA, who has been working for the province for less than five years, and is making $275,000 a year, telling the media that pharmacists are to blame for rising drug costs, and that pharmacists are guilty of collecting "rebates," even though Bill 102 defines professional allowances explicitly.

The reason that she is able to say this and we can't sue her, is that Bill 102 defines certain set purposes for which professional allowances can be used, and if they aren't used for those purposes (eg pt education, blister packing), and if we don't produce the paperwork twice a year proving that we are using these allowances as laid out in the legislation, the Executive Officer then calls our professional allowances "rebates" (it actually says this in the legislation!), and has the power to fine us for the amount of professional allowances we were "improperly" paid.

Also, Bill 102 is exempt from the Statutory Powers and Procedures Act, a technical point missed by many critics. What this means is due process does not have to be followed. So the rulings of the Executive Officer are binding, and cannot be appealed. The only avenue of appeal open is a judicial review, which are very infrequently granted. Apparently if the SPPA is suspended, only the rules of common law apply, and I'm not a lawyer so I don't know all the ramifications of that.

Long post...........
 
And indeed, Apotex failed at just that: http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onscdc/doc/2008/2008canlii39429/2008canlii39429.html

A lot of the slides you're referring to are really funny too, like saying the "USA", when the data is compiled from just 3 states, and complaining about rising generic drug expenditures over the years, but ignoring how much of it is due to both expiring patents, and busted patents.

The part I'm wondering about is what part of the private sector in 2005 was she chosen from? All I recall was that she was on the board of some hospital foundation, and how the heck did she get there?

It's all too mysterious to me, people spend their whole lives working toward positions that she just parachutes right into out of nowhere.
 
Here's some background on HS, from the Ministry of Health website:

In 1997, Ms. Stevenson started Savattuq Incorporated, a healthcare consulting business in Toronto. As president of this corporation, she led an international expert working group to develop Donor Action, an evidence-based program that provides hospitals the methodology to determine weaknesses in the donation process and provides tools to enhance their best practices.

But, if you look into Donor Action as I have, it was funded by Novartis - no mention of any Savattuq. Maybe she was involved in the Canadian groups at Canadian hospitals, but she certainly did not "lead" in developing this group, far as I have been able to determine - seems to be more of a European-led thing.

Last year, the Toronto Star made a freedom of information request on the background of HS - haven't heard anything so far.
 
How often do you see this?

A petition of half a million signatures was delivered to Queen's Park on Friday. The government may be softening its rhetoric, but I'm not holding my breath.

Alberta looks like a good province for pharmacists - they have some limited rights to prescribe, and they are paid for cognitive services.
 
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Kroger's (largest grocery store chain in central ohio) already cut 93 part-time central ohio pharmacists from their payroll.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/conten...2/27/krogers-part-time-pharmacy-jobs-cut.html

Kroger this week laid off 93 part-time pharmacists at stores in the central Ohio market, effective immediately.

That leaves 340 full-time pharmacists, more than enough to continue to serve the customers in the Columbus market's 126 stores, said Kroger spokeswoman Amy McCormick.

The workers were laid off with the possibility of being called back for work, and so they were not eligible for severance pay, she said.

"Based on our current business plan and the current economic climate, an adjustment in part-time pharmacists was needed," McCormick said. "It was a very difficult decision, anytime you have to make layoffs, because we value our associates' contribution to our customers and our company.

"It was necessary to make these adjustments if we are to remain a strong company in a very competitive market," she said.

This is the first time Kroger has laid off part-time pharmacists, McCormick said.

With the growth of drugstore chains such as CVS, Rite Aid and Walgreens and the addition of pharmacies in many supermarket and discount chains, "there's more choices for pharmacies than there are places where you can get groceries," McCormick said.

Tim Benedict, spokesman for the Ohio State Board of Pharmacy, said this is the first mass layoff of pharmacists the board has heard of, although he said "the jobs now are not as plentiful as they were five years ago."
 
The Kroger lay-offs occurred months ago in February. This is old news.
 
So have the Ontario Pharmacists organized a provincial walkout yet?

'Cause y'all need to get on that. Just walk away. They can't make you work. It would be bold and ballsy. The profession would be painted as cold hearted with this "American-style" move. But **** them. You'll get your way lickity split.
 
I like this! But is it a good idea really? The Ministry of Health has already been shameless in its PR campaign, for instance, putting forward statements by AIDS pts saying how their medication is horrifically expensive; they need these price cuts, etc. The government not bothering to mention that there are (mostly) no generics for HIV medication and the cost of brand name drugs would be unaffected by these changes.

If we walked off the job, all it would take was one child with cancer whose parents couldn't get their meds for, say, 24 whole hours, and we'd be villains.
 
Well, we know the bill passed :(

But the architect of this, assistant deputy Minister Helen Stevenson, the person slagging pharmacists in the media whilst pulling down a salary of nearly $300,000, is leaving, probably in late June.

Wonder what the chances are of the government putting someone in charge of Ontario Drug Benefit who is actually a health care professional? Someone who actually knows something about the drugs they are responsible for listing or delisting?
 
The Kroger lay-offs occurred months ago in February. This is old news.

I would say months ago is not old news. It is very relevant and telling of the US job market. Kroger is the largest grocery chain in the US. A whole sale lay off of pharmacists is a big deal. Kroger just revised its labor model as well reducing tech hours by 10%. I am not a profit of doom and gloom however the facts are there if you want to see them. CVS and Walgreens are at the bottom of all retail chains. It seems all the other chains are hell bent on racing each other to get there too.

I used to joke every time they cut our hours that soon it was going to be myself and one clerk doing 500 RXs a day. I am not joking about it anymore because it just may happen.
 
The government is postponing the changes.

The regulatory changes, which would eliminate the $750 million a year in so-called professional allowances that drug companies pay to pharmacies in return for shelf space, were supposed to take effect May 15 but have been put off until mid-June.

"We're taking the time it takes to make sure we get it right," Matthews said. "These are big changes. We want to do it right."

The minister insists she's not taking extra time to sweeten the deal with pharmacists, who've waged a very public war against the cuts.

But they aren't saying why there's the delay.
 
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