redshifteffect

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Just spoke to an Ontario recruiter and it's all good news for Australian trained grads.

The new pathway being created by the CPSO for jurisdiction approved countries (ie all Australian training programs) will mean that if you graduated from an Australian specialty training program you won't even require RCPSC certification! That means you only need your Australian fellowship and do not require a Canadian fellowship to be fully licensed in Ontario! She did say some Ontario hospitals may require it, but the majority do not. This pathway was conceptulised in Nov, but is in the process of being created.

In terms of GPs if you have an FRACGP you will be able to get a CCFP; you will be able to get a temporary license if you don't have the LMCC, and if you do have an LMCC you can get a full unrestricted license. You don't have to write the CFPC exam anymore since it's now equivalent to the FRACGP. There is another requirement that you need 1 year of Canadian post grad experience but she said there are two ways of getting out of this. The first is that on a case by case most Australian trained doctors are exempted from this. The second is you get a mentor to supervise you for a year, and the mentor doesn't necessarily even have to be on site.

Now here is the kicker...there is NO return of service. Yep NO RETURN OF SERVICE! For either specialists or GPs.

The only warning she gave me was that not all specialists are in demand in Ontario.

When I talked about RRIPS and the GP training hours/pay here she said the prudent thing to do would be to complete training in Australia. She said that since there is virtually no penalty for being Australian trained (in fact even less then CaRMs which may have a RoS) there really isn't any reason to even attempt CaRMs unless you want to come back sooner.

She also pointed out another pathway created by CFPC for residents (ie Intern year +RMO) from Australia (this is specifically only for Australian + American residents at the moment, but may be extended to other countries in the future). This will however require you to write the CFPC exams.

http://www.cfpc.ca/English/cfpc/education/examinations/family medicine/default.asp?s=1

*Edit*
This was from a Healthforce Ontario recruiter (provincial government), not a third party recruiter.
 
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pitman

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Cool beans, red.

Could you elaborate on this sentence, particularly what the initialisms are (e.g., is CFPC Canadian Family Practice Cert., the corresponding professional accreditation to Australia's FRACGP?), and what are the practical implications for Australian trained GPs wanting to go to Ontario...I can't tell if you're saying FRACGPs don't need anything extra, that is, is the LMCC clause referring to an extra requirement or an alternative pathway?

In terms of GPs if you have an FRACGP you will be able to get a CFPC, you will be able to get a temporary license if you don't have the LMCC, and if you do have an LMCC you can get a full unrestricted license.
 
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redshifteffect

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Basically if you have an FRACGP you apply to get a CFPC license (College of Family Physicians of Canada). At this stage they recognise it as equivalent to the FRACGP. So from what I understand you simply apply to have your credentials verified and you can get the certification in family medicine without writing their exams (which was required previously).

More info on this page:
http://www.cfpc.ca/English/cfpc/education/examinations/EQUIVALENT TRAINING/default.asp?s=1

You do not require LMCC certification to get the CFPC certification (CCFP designation) however you will require this to get a full unrestricted license in any province. If you have the CCFP designation via the CFPC reciprocity certification with the FRACGP then you can still apply for a restricted license in Ontario (ie requiring a supervisor) until such time as you can complete your LMCC certification.

I hope that makes a bit more sense.

Basically all that's happened is that now that the CFPC recognises the FRACGP designation as being equivalent to their MCFP designation Ontario will allow Australian doctors to practice there immediately. There are a few provinces that do not require their GPs to have the MCFP designation or to undergo the CFPC exams to gain a full unrestricted license, they simply required the completion of the LMCC process. So for Australian trained GPs they offered a relatively hassle free pathway to practicing medicine in Canada.

Prior to this recognition the CFPC would only allow Australian trained doctors to write their exams with a total of 5 years of GP experience, 2 of which must have been in Canada. So fresh GP graduates would have to go to provinces which did not require CFPC membership spend 5 years there and then take the exams. Upon completion of these exams they would then be able to practice in Ontario.

By the recognition of the FRACGP by the CFPC this cumbersome step is now eliminated.

*Edit*
The designation for a licensee of the CFPC is MCFP. Therefore MCFP = FRACGP.
 
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calone

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Thanks for the info, red.
I don't have the background knowledge to understand everything you said here, but I will try to catch up later.
Nevertheless, I can see that this is a good news for people from Ontario, myself included.
 

JPR22

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These changes for general practice were long overdue. It will be a good thing for those in high demand fields like family medicine, internal medicine, psychiatry. But for those in rads, path, rad-onc, GI, nephro, and a few surgical specialties, theres really a very limited number of openings. Alot of grads in these fields arent finding jobs. Nevertheless, it will benefit patients needing a family doctor the most.
 

pitman

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You do not require LMCC certification to get the CFPC certification (CCFP designation) however you will require this to get a full unrestricted license in any province. If you have the CCFP designation via the CFPC reciprocity certification with the FRACGP then you can still apply for a restricted license in Ontario (ie requiring a supervisor) until such time as you can complete your LMCC certification.

I hope that makes a bit more sense.
Much more sense, and almost clear now!

What is LMCC, and how does one get LMCC certification? And until one does, an FRACGP -> CFPC certified has to be supervised, or does time spent with the restricted license (i.e., practicing supervised) lead to LMCC certification?
 
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redshifteffect

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Much more sense, and almost clear now!

What is LMCC, and how does one get LMCC certification? And until one does, an FRACGP -> CFPC certified has to be supervised, or does time spent with the restricted license (i.e., practicing supervised) lead to LMCC certification?
JPR22 So Path isn't in demand in Ontario? That's what the recruiter warned me about (not Path specifically) but that some jobs weren't in demand.

Pitman LMCC = MCCEE + QE1 + QE2. She did say there may be some changes to this as well, but that's as it stands for now. The problem is that although not all provinces require CFPC certification, all of them require the LMCC. So without it you can only apply for a restricted license, which will require some sort of supervision. She said however it may not require on site supervision, but this varies depending on the specialty and is decided on a case by case basis.
 
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JPR22

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JPR22 So Path isn't in demand in Ontario? That's what the recruiter warned me about (not Path specifically) but that some jobs weren't in demand.

Pitman LMCC = MCCEE + QE1 + QE2. She did say there may be some changes to this as well, but that's as it stands for now. The problem is that although not all provinces require CFPC certification, all of them require the LMCC. So without it you can only apply for a restricted license, which will require some sort of supervision. She said however it may not require on site supervision, but this varies depending on the specialty and is decided on a case by case basis.
Path certainly isnt in demand in ontario. Theres very few openings to begin with, and those are mostly filled by americans. None of the grads I know of from last year got a job.
 
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redshifteffect

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Path certainly isnt in demand in ontario. Theres very few openings to begin with, and those are mostly filled by americans. None of the grads I know of from last year got a job.
I wonder why that is. In Australia there is a huge shortage of pathologists and they are having trouble filling all the jobs. It's fairly easy to get a job in all the major cities, except perhaps Melbourne where it's pretty competitive.
 

JPR22

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I think its because the US overtrains pathologists. Canada, doesnt really train that many. Once the rules were changed allowing US specialists to practice in ontario without additional exams, the shortage of pathologists vanished. If anything its a lack of protectionism.
 

pitman

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I think its because the US overtrains pathologists. Canada, doesnt really train that many. Once the rules were changed allowing US specialists to practice in ontario without additional exams, the shortage of pathologists vanished. If anything its a lack of protectionism.
I'm thinking more about why there's any disparity between the countries, not why there's no shortage there per se. But that's an interesting point.
 
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redshifteffect

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Are there private path labs in Ontario? Australia has jobs in public hospitals as well as a series of private labs around the country.

That could explain the difference as well.

This is why I'm so glad I didn't waste my time with CaRMs, wasting 5 years while making a pittance only to find out Ontario's infamous lack of opportunities strikes again.
 
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lailaa

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I actually think Australia is going to hit the same problem as USA and Canada in the next year with oversaturation of the job market where path is concerned, so I wouldn't be calling it so much an in demand specialty at the moment...maybe this year, but next year, there will be about 70 new pathologists hitting the job market around Australia with another 12-15 or so from NZ, so I think the job market is going to become quite competitive.
 

Transition

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Canadians are really screwed trying to get a FRACGP and eventually try to get the CCFM certification by CFPC.
It looks like it is now impossible for Canadians in Australia to get an internship and residency thanks to Australian Government cutbacks.
I'd recommend Canadians try and transfer to a US Medical School as soon as possible.
What evidence do you have for this?
 
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redshifteffect

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I actually think Australia is going to hit the same problem as USA and Canada in the next year with oversaturation of the job market where path is concerned, so I wouldn't be calling it so much an in demand specialty at the moment...maybe this year, but next year, there will be about 70 new pathologists hitting the job market around Australia with another 12-15 or so from NZ, so I think the job market is going to become quite competitive.

There's still a huge shortage of pathologists in Oz though, even with the high pass rate this year. Even if it means going rurally. In Ontario though there aren't even any jobs rurally, let alone in large metros. In some of the places I've been there are tonnes of Pathologists ready to retire, but just haven't been able to because of a lack of staff.