Ophthalmology vs the rest

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Rajshah

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I am a believer in Ophth
Most of my Family are in this specialty - Uncles, Cousins, Siblings.
They all laugh at other colleagues in other specialties - who work so hard for so little.
I have to say that I myself will go into Ophth
It offers a very high salary for very little work - but above all I have more time for myself and family.
A little story from my cousin from UCSF:

He was 1 st year resident in Ophth and came upon one of his attendings talking to a orthopod at about 4pm
Brief outline

orthopod "Got to do 2 DHS and a Gamma nailing then hopefully sleep unless another #NOF appears"

Ophth " Got to do a LASIK and 2 cataracts then home to wife + kids in my Aston Martin. Taking kids to play baseball. Then meal at a friend's house. Hopefully catch the Matrix at the cinema. Early start tommorrow at 10pm. Hopefully no glaucoma calls"

I would say do what you enjoy, but if you are not particularly moved by the other specialties then really consider Ophth.

Raj

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Doesn't anyone go into ophthalmology out of interest in the visual system anymore? So many posts on this board revolve around lifestyle issues. My interest in the visual system was sparked nearly 10 years ago, and I went to medical school specifically to pursue ophthalmology. Call me old school, but I'm just glad someone will pay me to do this. :)
 
Originally posted by Rajshah
I am a believer in Ophth
Most of my Family are in this specialty - Uncles, Cousins, Siblings.
They all laugh at other colleagues in other specialties - who work so hard for so little.
I have to say that I myself will go into Ophth
It offers a very high salary for very little work - but above all I have more time for myself and family.
A little story from my cousin from UCSF:

He was 1 st year resident in Ophth and came upon one of his attendings talking to a orthopod at about 4pm
Brief outline

orthopod "Got to do 2 DHS and a Gamma nailing then hopefully sleep unless another #NOF appears"

Ophth " Got to do a LASIK and 2 cataracts then home to wife + kids in my Aston Martin. Taking kids to play baseball. Then meal at a friend's house. Hopefully catch the Matrix at the cinema. Early start tommorrow at 10pm. Hopefully no glaucoma calls"

I would say do what you enjoy, but if you are not particularly moved by the other specialties then really consider Ophth.

Raj

There are other fields in medicine that offer a good lifestyle and a comfortable income. Therefore, I don't think lifestyle should be the primary reason to pursue ophthalmology, and I hope that residency programs are able to screen out individuals who don't have a strong calling for ophthalmology.
 
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"There are other fields in medicine that offer a good lifestyle and a comfortable income. Therefore, I don't think lifestyle should be the primary reason to pursue ophthalmology, and I hope that residency programs are able to screen out individuals who don't have a strong calling for ophthalmology."


Future out of touch academic. Sure, perhaps choosing optho JUST for lifestyle and money is not wise. But it certainly beats taking care of gomers in the hospital, or operating at all hours of the night. The only calling I see with optho is the nice income and relatively good hours. What other calling is there?

Medicine is a job, just like any. Some medical students realize this before the match and choose their field wisely. Others will spend their lives toiling in the mine, for very little because they were brain washed by out of touch academics in our medical schools.
 
the original poster probably wants to go into dermatology but he's borderline and wants to entice all of us who's really interested in ophtho/derm to choose ophtho. what a waste of time.
 
Originally posted by oldandtired

Future out of touch academic. Sure, perhaps choosing optho JUST for lifestyle and money is not wise. But it certainly beats taking care of gomers in the hospital, or operating at all hours of the night. The only calling I see with optho is the nice income and relatively good hours. What other calling is there?

What other calling is there???

Perhaps you should spend more time in the eye clinic, and then you'll see why ophthalmologists love what they do:

1) Fight against vision threatening diseases: diabetes, cataracts, corneal degenerative diseases, macular degeneration, idiopathic and pathologic choroidal neovascular membranes, glaucoma, sarcoid, GCA, etc...

2) Identify and treat diseases that detroy vision and life: retinoblastoma, melanoma, ocular tumors, collagen/vascular diseases, aneurysms, endophthalmitis, etc...

3) Save vision by repairing ocular trauma: 10% of all trauma involve the eyes even though the eyes are less than 0.5% of the total body's surface area. Although we may not get called often, there are orbital traumas during the night. The local ophthalmologists in Iowa and attendings at the University see patients during the night.

4) Opportunity to work with patients who are completely grateful for the care they receive. Unless you have experienced the possibility of losing vision or an eye, you'll likely not appreciate the medical care provided by ophthalmologists and optometry.


It's interesting how other students/physicians will look down upon ophthalmology until they get their first retinal detachment, develop glaucoma, lose vision, or suffer ocular trauma. The attitude quickly changes.

Originally posted by oldandtired
Others will spend their lives toiling in the mine, for very little because they were brain washed by out of touch academics in our medical schools.

Perhaps these individuals have a calling. Why assume they were brain washed? Medicine is more than just a job. It's a calling for many who enter this field.

Furthermore, there are plenty of fields in medicine where you don't have to deal with, as you stated, "gomers", or operate in the middle of the night. There's even sub-specialties within internal medicine that pay well and doesn't require extensive hours: GI and cardiology comes to mind.
 
I know that optho is an important field, dont get me wrong. Every doctor thinks their field is important.

My point is that if you have to choose amongst all the important and glorious fields in medicine, you may as well choose one with good hours and pay. It is a lot different when you are older- your values change. No one lays on their death bed wishing they could have worked more, or seen a few more patients.

Medicine does become a job. Just like accounting, bookkeeping, plumbing, etc. We have more training then most, but are workers like anyone else. I did not realize this early in my training. As you advance closer to attending hood, you will realize this.

GI and cardiology suck. They work like dogs and have to go throught three painful years of medicine. Even after their fellowship they have to care for gomers at all times of the night.

Like Polk says in his book, Optho, radiology, anesthesia, pathology, derm are the specialties that make it worthwhile. The others are suckers.
 
How many of you can honestly say that you would still choose Optho if it involved tons of call, 12 hour work days and lower end pay scale?




:cool:
 
Originally posted by Goober
How many of you can honestly say that you would still choose Optho if it involved tons of call, 12 hour work days and lower end pay scale?

Don't fool yourself-not many specialties involve "tons of call" anymore. Those in the high-call specialties tend to form big groups to spread the pain, so to speak.

As for 12 hour days, if you enjoy what you're doing, I don't see a problem. Likely, that will only be for 5 days per week (How many docs work weekends nowadays, unless they're on call?).

And let's face it, no physician will be hurting financially, unless they don't know how to manage their practices. If you're really into money, medicine isn't the right field for you anyway--try business/finance. I have a friend who's a day trader. He works from home, makes his own hours, and is wealthier than I'll ever be as an ophthalmologist!
 
Originally posted by Visionary
Don't fool yourself-not many specialties involve "tons of call" anymore. Those in the high-call specialties tend to form big groups to spread the pain, so to speak.

As for 12 hour days, if you enjoy what you're doing, I don't see a problem. Likely, that will only be for 5 days per week (How many docs work weekends nowadays, unless they're on call?).

And let's face it, no physician will be hurting financially, unless they don't know how to manage their practices. If you're really into money, medicine isn't the right field for you anyway--try business/finance. I have a friend who's a day trader. He works from home, makes his own hours, and is wealthier than I'll ever be as an ophthalmologist!


Well I know quite a few eye docs. Some of them are close friends and relatives. Yes they enjoy what they are doing, but every single one of them said they chose the specialty because they wanted to do surgery but not have the surgical lifestyle. Most of them get off at 3 pm and a lot have 4 day work weeks. One word of wisdom I got from almost all older docs in all specialties is that no matter how much you think you love something, 15 years down the road it is just a job. I suggest you read the famous residency book by Iserson which I found to be pretty accurate in the politics, practice and nature of current medical practice.

There are plenty of specialties that have high call that don't have large groups to spread the pain.

OB/gyn- most groups I see are 2-5
ortho-ditto
Neurosurg - usually are in solo practice or with 2-3 docs.
cardiology- there are some mega geoups but most of the groups I have seen are much smaller.
Primary care- ditto

As for your statement that you should not go into medicine for the money, I completely agree. But I will tell you that at 90% of the social gatherings I attend with other docs money and business are the #1 topic of discussion.
 
Originally posted by Goober
One word of wisdom I got from almost all older docs in all specialties is that no matter how much you think you love something, 15 years down the road it is just a job.

Goober,

It's an active choice how people decide to live and work.

I've seen physicians who view their careers as a "job"; on the other hand, I've worked with just as many physicians who view their careers as a passion and calling. In fact, many physicians I've worked with in academics and private practice view medicine as a calling. Otherwise, most would have left years previous. I don't have statistics to back up my claim; however, I know it requires a person with passion for medicine and dedication to help others to survive the intensive training and put up with all the red tape. Because of this, medicine to some can never be "just a job".

Furthermore, remember it's a choice how you decide to work and live your life. I admire most the physicians who are 60 and still feel that medicine is a calling, and have passion to help other people.
 
Originally posted by Ophtho_MudPhud
It's an active choice how people decide to live and work.

I concur. And perhaps I'm wrong, but I can't help feeling that those who do have a passion for medicine ultimately make better doctors. For instance, they will go the extra mile to stay on the leading edge of the field, and in doing so will ensure their patients benefit from the most current advances. That is not to say that those for whom medicine is simply a job will be slackers; however, I don't see them putting forth that additional effort. Just my opinion.
 
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Originally posted by Ophtho_MudPhud
In fact, many physicians I've worked with in academics and private practice view medicine as a calling. Otherwise, most would have left years previous. I don't have statistics to back up my claim; however, I know it requires a person with passion for medicine and dedication to help others to survive the intensive training and put up with all the red tape. Because of this, medicine to some can never be "just a job".

Furthermore, remember it's a choice how you decide to work and live your life. I admire most the physicians who are 60 and still feel that medicine is a calling, and have passion to help other people.

I totally disagree. Many physicians are working ONLY for the money. They would leave the profession in a heartbeat if they could find a job that paid them a similar amount. Dedication to help others? Please! I wish I had someone like you to work with during signout rounds. Without question, I encountered the most cutthroat people in my life in med school. Who's going to hire a 60 yr old guy for $350K/yr? Security guards at the Galleria make about $8/hr. How many personal statements did you read with stories of people dreaming of going into academic medicine with their one poster that they produced 2 weeks before submitting their ERAS? How many of them end up in academic medicine afterwards?

Take FMGs, for example. What motivates someone to give up everything in one's life to come to America? They give up their family, friends, community, culture...everything...for what? To hold some old lady's hand with pneumonia and CHF at 3am? They're overworked in the worst inner city hospitals and still have a smile. Moving to the middle of nowhere just to work unopposed doesn't phase them at all. Surely there are more sick people to "help" in 3rd world countries. In fact, why aren't more American doctors spending more time overseas in the jungles to help the needy?

MudPhud, you're further along in your training than I am so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. However, most conversations I've had with residents and attendings (regardless of the specialty) revolve around money & lifestyle. If you found something to be your calling - God Bless You - consider yourself to be very fortunate. I was asked in every job interview I had since high school, "Why do you want to work here?" Each time I had to restrain myself from not screaming at the top of my lungs, "For the money, why the hell else?" I know I'm not alone. Oldandtired may be old and tired, but he's also right.

I'm not in ophtho but I think it's a good field even though it's been one of the hardest hit specialties regarding reimbursements as of late. As far as the OP is concerned, I'm sure he's just another brainwashed med student - but that's good - it will carry him through his prelim yr.

Tomorrow's NYT hot off the press:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/07/national/07DERM.html?ex=1074451054&ei=1&en=f8446615df978066
 
Originally posted by ParisHilton
I totally disagree. Many physicians are working ONLY for the money. They would leave the profession in a heartbeat if they could find a job that paid them a similar amount.

There's no doubt that financial incentives are a big draw to medicine. However, it's never as simple as you stated. There are many factors involved, and money is not the "only" reason.

Consider the recent article published in JAMA recently:

The most important factors for physician satisfaction were:
"changes in measures of clinical autonomy, including increases in hours worked and physicians' ability to obtain services for their patients".

The authors also stress that declining incomes had less to do with physician satisfaction than the above reason.

Clearly, we all must make enough money to live comfortably and send our kids to college; but, no amount of money in the world will make me satisfied if I'm not doing what I love. For me, money has never been the most important factor for pursuing a medical career. The money is only icing on the cake.

P.S. It's too bad you didn't have me around when you gave sign-out rounds. I'm one of the few who enjoy taking call because that's when I see the most interesting things. :)

____________________________________________

Changes in Career Satisfaction Among Primary Care and Specialist Physicians, 1997-2001
Bruce E. Landon, MD, MBA; James Reschovsky, PhD; David Blumenthal, MD, MPP


JAMA. 2003;289:442-449.

Context A number of forces have changed the practice of medicine in the past decade. Evidence suggests that physicians are becoming less satisfied in this environment.

Objectives To describe changes in career satisfaction in a large, nationally representative sample of physicians and to examine market and practice factors associated with changes in physician satisfaction.

Design and Setting Data were collected from the first 3 rounds of the Community Tracking Study (CTS) Physician Survey, a series of nationally representative telephone surveys of physicians in 60 US sites conducted in 1996-1997 (round 1: 12 385 respondents; 65% response rate), 1998-1999 (round 2: 12 280 respondents; 61% response rate), and 2000-2001 (round 3: 12 389 respondents; 59% response rate) for the Center for Studying Health System Change. The second and third rounds of the survey included physicians sampled in the previous round, as well as new physicians.

Participants Primary care and specialist physicians who spent at least 20 hours per week in direct patient care activities.

Main Outcome Measures Changes in physicians' overall satisfaction with their career and the proportion of dissatisfied physicians in particular sites.

Results Physician satisfaction levels declined marginally between 1997 and 2001, with most of the decline occurring between 1997 and 1999. Among primary care physicians, 42.4% were very satisfied in 1997, as were 43.3% of specialists, compared with 38.5% and 41.4%, respectively, in 2001. There were nearly equal increases in those who reported that they were somewhat satisfied. Overall means mask significant differences across the 60 sites. Among 12 sites randomly selected for more intensive study, the proportion of respondents who were somewhat or very dissatisfied ranged from 8.8% of physicians in Lansing, Mich (1999), to 34.2% in Miami, Fla (1997). Between 1997 and 1999, 25.6% of primary care physicians reported decreased satisfaction and 18.1% reported improved satisfaction, while approximately equal percentages reported increased (19.8%) and decreased (20.4%) satisfaction between 1999-2001. Findings were similar for specialist physicians. In multivariable models, the strongest and most consistent predictors of change in satisfaction were changes in measures of clinical autonomy, including increases in hours worked and physicians' ability to obtain services for their patients. Changes in exposure to managed care were weakly related to changes in satisfaction.

Conclusions Our findings demonstrate that overall physician satisfaction levels over this time period did not change dramatically. In addition, satisfaction and changes in satisfaction vary greatly among sites. Rather than declining income, threats to physicians' autonomy, to their ability to manage their day-to-day patient interactions and their time, and to their ability to provide high-quality care are most strongly associated with changes in satisfaction.
 
Originally posted by Ophtho_MudPhud
P.S. It's too bad you didn't have me around when you gave sign-out rounds. I'm one of the few who enjoy taking call because that's when I see the most interesting things. :)
Wow! Spoken like a true academic :D. I'm sure you would get a kick out of watching us play "hot potato" during sign-out.

Maybe you've read this before - this article claims a high dissatisfaction rate in ophthos on pg 6 (amongst other specialties):
http://www.americangeriatrics.org/education/geristudents/phys_career.pdf
 
I'm a 7th year md/phd and I just started back on the wards. Maybe it's just MD/PhD's but I agree with ophtho, I love what I'm doing. I'm back on the wards, and I love doing call, you do get to see the interesting cases, and yes it is a calling for me. I dunno. You guys are all so fecking cynical. I'm glad ophtho_mudphud still has his idealism. Props to you man. I'm in the midst of my 7th year of training towards my MD/PhD, and damn I love it. I wouldn't change a thing, and I'm looking forward to a career in academia, and no I didn't just make a poster a couple of weeks ago. Hahah.. Man some of you are so bitter, it's kind of funny. It's strange how ppl can go through similar experiences and end up hating it or loving it. In general though it seems to me that the mudphuds I have known have always been very laid back and have seemed to always enjoy the process. You all should stop bitching (the cynical wankers who are bitching), medicine rocks and it's hella fun, and it's much more fun than most any job out there, and ppl will still give you some props for being in medicine. And sometimes you actually can help another person out, maybe even save a person's life, and that's pretty cool too. You haters can call me naive, stupid, inexperienced, or whatever, but I'm probably enjoying my life way more than you. Cheers.

Cer
 
re: ceremony's post - maybe it's coz mdphds get a full ride & dont have a huge debt to deal w/? w/ resident's salary it's a bi#ch to try to pay for a house, car, food, insurance etc etc for u and yoru family AND deal w/ $200k debt. , and $ becomes the only thing they worry about? regardless i admire ceremony & andrew's idealism!
 
Chef, I agree with you. Not being in debt sure does help out, but I guess everyone should have known before going into med school what the debt burden would be, etc.. It's not like it was new news. I guess I am personally getting tired of ppl complaining about medicine and being so worried about reimbursment, etc. Medicine is fun, thought provoking, humanistic, and a means to help people. You're never going to be poor. Man, my family (parents, my brother and I) did great with a medium income <45K for years (my dad was a gardener for about 13 years and my mom stayed at home), and really I never ever felt in need of anything, and I had almost every opportunity intellectually, since I had great parents. I mean it is nice to help people. People do appreciate it, and that is fulfilling to me. I don't understand why ppl need to make 300,000 a year, wtf do you all want to buy and how fecking huge is your debt? I think the average debt at yale is 160K, and yalies have one of the largest debt burdens of any med school. So if you go into some kind of specialty you can probably pay off the debt in a couple of years. You can definitely pay off the debt within a reasonable amount of time in medicine. So whatsup???? Also, you can live extremely well on 100K a year and that's the "lowest" physician salary. Well, I dunno, I just don't think the reimbursment issue really makes that much sense. I tend to agree with some of the articles saying that the decrease in physician autonomy and our dependence on a managed care type of system is what's screwing up the well being of physicians.

Cer
 
i think stories like this are not too uncommon, and since it's too late for many to quit the only recourse is to try to make as much $ as possible and retire as fast as you can, hopefully w/ a few mil in the bank.


[from gen residency forum]
After a half year of residency, hardly anything is what I thought it would be. I found surgery interesting as a medical student, patient care was gratifying, and I overall thought that medicine was a good field.

6 months later, I have seen it in a completely different light. People told me that society is litiginous, patients will be ungrateful, and that you put your own health, and possibly life, at risk for this career. I heard that extensively as a medical student, but it took getting sprayed with Hep C + blood in the face, berated/ threatened by families of patients on several occasions, and being a glorified social worker that has completely changed my perspective.

I was described often while in medical school as enthusiastic and respectful towards patients needs; now all I think of is how to cover my a*s in a lawsuit. Putting yourself at risk didn't seem so bad when the population was relatively grateful, but when they treat you like a sack of sh#t, it makes you wonder why in the world I would risk my own life (Hep C, HIV) for people who resent physicians in general.

Anyways, >$100,000 of debt keeps me grounded enough not just to quit medicine and walk away, but I really do not think I want to live the rest of my career like this. I have considered switching into pathology, radiology, and internal medicine, but those all have their downsides in that I traditionally have been interested in either inflammatory bowel disease and cancer (don't know how much I could do with that in path or rads) but by going into IM, though the disease risk is lower, you still will be dealing with the angry, litiginous public.

What can I do? I recently even had to call security because a patient's family was physically threatening the staff (while high on crack.) And they even had the audacity to come back into clinic and b#tch about the care they received!

Just wanted some ideas out there by people who are going through this or have switched out of a patient care-oriented field and if they are satisfied with their choice.

thanks
 
Originally posted by chef
i think stories like this are not too uncommon, and since it's too late for many to quit the only recourse is to try to make as much $ as possible and retire as fast as you can, hopefully w/ a few mil in the bank.

Because of stories like the one above, this is why I think medicine demands a unique type of personality and character to be a physician. There's more to entering medicine than the financial rewards. Money will not make a physician happy.

Medicine has never been a safe profession. For instance, imagine being a physician during the times when tuberculosis was rampant, and there were no antibiotics. TB without treatment is more deadly and contagious than HIV. There's hundreds of deadly diseases that had no cures a hundred years ago; yet, there were still physicians who dedicated their lives to their professions. While HIV and Hep C may be deadly diseases today, it is only a matter of time before these diseases will be cured. In fact, HIV/AIDS is less deadly in the US because of all the new anti-retroviral medications. If patients take their meds, then they will do quite well. Unfortunately, AIDS is still a deadly disease in third world countries due to lack of available medications. Even diabetes is a deadly disease in these countries. Medicine, however, will never be a safe profession. We now have SARS and prion diseases to worry about.

I do agree that we live in incredibly litigious times. We definitely need drastic changes in the current medical insurance system. If malpractice premiums continue to rise, then none of us can afford to practice medicine.

While some physician-patient interactions may be negative, there are plenty of rewarding experiences in this profession to keep me excited and content. I've had my share of being yelled at by patients, being ridiculed by patient's families, and difficult patient encounters. However, for every bad experience, there are many rewarding encounters.

It's never too late to change careers. For MDs, there are research careers, academic careers, consulting jobs, and hospital administration positions. Furthermore, if you don't want patients who yell or talk back, then work for the military. In the military there are patients who will salute you. It's a choice to be a physician; and, there's always other options available if medicine is not your cup of tea.
 
Originally posted by Ceremony
I'm a 7th year md/phd and I just started back on the wards. Maybe it's just MD/PhD's but I agree with ophtho, I love what I'm doing. I'm back on the wards, and I love doing call, you do get to see the interesting cases, and yes it is a calling for me.

Cer-

Perhaps you have something there. I'm a 9th (yes, ninth) year MD/PhD--I took the long route, getting my PhD first--and I feel just as you and Andrew do (see my earlier posts). You know, it pretty much has to be a calling for someone to pursue an MD/PhD in the first place.
Unless, of course, you're insane. :hardy:
 
Originally posted by Rajshah
I am a believer in Ophth
Most of my Family are in this specialty - Uncles, Cousins, Siblings.
They all laugh at other colleagues in other specialties - who work so hard for so little.
I have to say that I myself will go into Ophth
It offers a very high salary for very little work - but above all I have more time for myself and family.
A little story from my cousin from UCSF:

He was 1 st year resident in Ophth and came upon one of his attendings talking to a orthopod at about 4pm
Brief outline

orthopod "Got to do 2 DHS and a Gamma nailing then hopefully sleep unless another #NOF appears"

Ophth " Got to do a LASIK and 2 cataracts then home to wife + kids in my Aston Martin. Taking kids to play baseball. Then meal at a friend's house. Hopefully catch the Matrix at the cinema. Early start tommorrow at 10pm. Hopefully no glaucoma calls"

I would say do what you enjoy, but if you are not particularly moved by the other specialties then really consider Ophth.

Raj
Quite a shameless post. It was embarrasing for me
to read this. Medical schools in the US efficently weed MOST of the people like you.

I wonder how much your OPTHO. parents/relatives
paid to get you in.

I wish residency directors could read your post!

An abomination to the field of medicine.


-Harps
 
Originally posted by Harps
Quite a shameless post. It was embarrasing for me
to read this. Medical schools in the US efficently weed MOST of the people like you.

I wonder how much your OPTHO. parents/relatives
paid to get you in.

I wish residency directors could read your post!

An abomination to the field of medicine.


-Harps

I don't think Medical schools in the US weed out people like this at all. I know lots of Ophtho docs and almost all of them think like he does to an extent. It actually has really little to do with how intelligent they are, or even how good of a doctor they are. Most of the eye docs I know were AOA grads with high board scores, they all wanted to surgery with the lifestyle and the $$$.

Why do you think Dermatology is such a competitive field? Do you honestly think that all those poeple who are going into it are doing it for a "calling" or passion for Skin (lol:rolleyes: )
 
Goober,
Of course not. I do, however, strongly believe that the US admissions process weeds MORE ppl than, say the admissions process in India, which is based only on scores or $$.
On to dermatology, it is quite obvious that to have passion or claim passion for SKIN sounds ridiculous. I've worked in a dermatology lab for the past 5 years, and I've seen my PI reject scores of applicants. Most of those t accepted usually show panache in research related to dermatology.
Also, dermatology is competitive not only because of the number of applicants, but because of the spots. It is widely known that in the past primary care physicians took care of derm conditions (really, prescribing retinoids isn't that difficult of a task)...the need for dermatologists was negligible (differential derm. diagnosis can be revealing of certain diseses, but nowadays derm. is primarily cosmetic...that's not medicine to me). Thus, I would say that most students that land derm. positions at university affiliated hospitals have done research to signify their interest, if not passion, in derm.
What the OP is saying is that he's doing OPTHO for PURELY monetary reasons... :scared:

-Harps
 
Originally posted by Goober
Do you honestly think that all those poeple who are going into it are doing it for a "calling" or passion for Skin (lol:rolleyes: )

It's funny that you bring this up. I think derm is an attractive field because of the hours and few calls; however, I also think physicians go into derm because it's an interesting field.

There are many auto-immune diseases and infectious etiologies that affect skin. More importantly, dermatologists can also save lives by diagnosing and treating skin cancers. Derm can be very interesting and rewarding.

Perhaps not all derm applicants feel this way, but I think the ones who manage to land a spot have a true passion for dermatology. It's also interesting that there's a good number of MD-PhDs training in dermatology; thus, residency selection definitely favors those with an interest in academics and/or with a true passion for dermatological disorders. At minimum, as Harps stated, applicants must demonstrate a true interest in dermatology.
 
andrew looks like u r showing your iowa spirit nicely now! dissin hopkins now, eh? :D
 
Originally posted by Ophtho_MudPhud
It's funny that you bring this up. I think derm is an attractive field because of the hours and few calls; however, I also think physicians go into derm because it's an interesting field.

There are many auto-immune diseases and infectious etiologies that affect skin. More importantly, dermatologists can also save lives by diagnosing and treating skin cancers. Derm can be very interesting and rewarding.

Perhaps not all derm applicants feel this way, but I think the ones who manage to land a spot have a true passion for dermatology. It's also interesting that there's a good number of MD-PhDs training in dermatology; thus, residency selection definitely favors those with an interest in academics and/or with a true passion for dermatological disorders. At minimum, as Harps stated, applicants must demonstrate a true interest in dermatology.

The point is there are many interesting fields in medicine.
Neurology is an interesting field but rarely fills in the match (with US grads anyways). Neurology also attracts a lot of MD-PhDs. So why aren't people banging down the doors to get into neurology? Where's the passion for neurology? Is dermatology really that more interesting than neurology? Why is the USMLE of the average neurology matched applicant 218, when that won't even get you an interview probably at the majority of derm programs. The answer is obvious.

The most competitive specialties are the ones with the best lifestyle and $$$$. I would argue that if dermatology had a bad lifestyle and made below average income, the number of applications would drop by 75%.

The vast majority of docs could be happy doing a number of specialties. I have met very few people who came to med school and knew they were going to be a dermatologist or ophtho doc before hand unless they were children of physicians.
 
What I don't understand is this....
back in the mid 1990's, Ophthalmology was easy, supposedly because of the big pay cuts. Now it's cut throat again...why? Salaries haven't gotten that much higher, if anything, the reimbursements have continued to fall. I guess everyone wants to be a LASIK cowboy and make their money like that.

I think there are two types of people that apply for OPH, those who love it, and those who think it's cool but like the lifestyle more than anything else.

Med students are great pretenders. I know people who told their attendings on every one of their rotations that that particular rotation was their specialty of choice. Hence, how can you weed the people out who only want OPH for money and lifestyle? I don't even want to think about the people who won't match this year who love OPH regardless of salary and lifestyle while some fancy AOA type who doesn't give a rip about OPH matches. That's just the way it is, I guess.

As for eye docs driving Aston Martins....I don't think that's very realistic...it's definitely the minority of eye docs who have this kind of lifestyle. However, you can live quite comfortably on even 100K/year, once your student loans are paid. If you really want the big bucks...get into the business side of medicine...start a biotech company or something like that. Even the richest eye doc will look poor compared to the owner/CEO of a modestly successful company. I know of a doc who worked as a professor at a NC medical school until he started a medical equipment company. Within 10 years, the guy had it all...a huge beach home, a Gulfstream V jet, cars, everything. compare that to your aston martin.

I think Radiology is the biggest joke though. All the top medical students applying for a field that doesn't involve hardly any direct patient care. It's so obvious it's because of the recent salary boom. A few years ago, anyone could do rads...and those are the people who are reaping the benefits of the salary hike. I heard apps for radiology are up 20% this year from last.

You can't predict where salaries will be in 5 years anyway, so why go into a field because it's hot now? These radiology types will probably be on the downside of the curve by the time they graduate. Maybe be OPH will be hot, maybe it won't. Maybe your FP's will be making the big bucks...who knows? Point is...I'm happy with my choice to do OPH, whether the typical work week is 30 hours or 80, pays the highest or the lowest. Anyone who goes into a job they hate just for money or whatever is making a huge mistake.
 
So this may or may not be on topic ('course, most threads are a bit serpiginous - sp?? - love that word).

I've been doing rotations and have ruled out a TON of fields. The only ones that remain from pre-3d year are ophtho and neuropath, with EM a recent addition (I'm doing the rotation and it's fun).

My only real concern is that OPH, as it's dealing with one organ (sort of), could feel restrictive (or get old) after a decade or more. Did anyone else have concerns that OPH might not have sufficient variety but discovered that not to be the case in actuality? I know this will be more clear after a few electives, but what do y'all think?

Thanks.
 
Primate,

Being too specialized is always a concern. It's truly a matter of personal preference. Even ER is a specialization in triage. :) (j/k'ing there)


Physicians are always pushed to specialized. For instance, IM fellowships in cards, renal, endo, ect...

The eye is specialized, and one can even be a sub-specialist too. However, you'll have to do rotations to determine if it's your cup of tea. I really enjoy ophthalmology. There's enough systemic diseases affecting the eye to keep me interested and challenged.

Good luck!
 
To Harps

I agree that I am simply doing ophthalmology for the money and lifestyle.
I do not exactly have a great calling for any of the medical specialties.
From my experience I have generally found that Ophthalmologists are happier with their life than other docs - both from the work they do and the time they get to enjoy outside their work.
Other people with whom I have debated the field of Ophthalmology quote similar reasons.
I mean you are helping people with vision (a very precious special sense indeed!!!!), and you are getting a very reasonable income for yourself and family with time off to enjoy yourself.
So far "time" is something which is also precious, as it can never be reclaimed.
Hence Ophthalmology has become one of the most if not the most competitive field out there.
 
Originally posted by Rajshah
To Harps

I agree that I am simply doing ophthalmology for the money and lifestyle.
I do not exactly have a great calling for any of the medical specialties.
From my experience I have generally found that Ophthalmologists are happier with their life than other docs - both from the work they do and the time they get to enjoy outside their work.
Other people with whom I have debated the field of Ophthalmology quote similar reasons.
I mean you are helping people with vision (a very precious special sense indeed!!!!), and you are getting a very reasonable income for yourself and family with time off to enjoy yourself.
So far "time" is something which is also precious, as it can never be reclaimed.
Hence Ophthalmology has become one of the most if not the most competitive field out there.

Rajshah,

I sense that you're pursuing ophthalmology for more than just the financial reward. From your post, it sounds like you have found important reasons why ophthalmology is more attractive than other specialties.

My opinion on this matter has always been the following:

Do what you love and the money is icing on the cake. If you hate what you do, then money becomes the shackle that binds you to the very thing you despise.

Good luck to you! ;)
 
The simple fact of the matter is that ophtho is COOL.

The clinic is Focused and Fun. The toys are neat. There are a ton of procedures in clinic and the OR. The surgeries are clean, precise, and you get results (good ones most of the time). You help people see and have fun doing it.

Then, on top of that, the lifestyle doesn't suck! It's just icing on the cake.

However, there are a lot of fun specialties out there. Take GI, Urology, or OB/Gyn. The nice thing about ophtho is that you don't spend every day scoping colons, doing pelvic exams, or fixing erectile dysfunction.

I'm glad that there are people who want to every specialty, because that means I do the one that fits my personality best ---OPHTHO. I wouldn't want to be a psychiatrist or a cardiologist, but I'm glad someone does.

It takes all kinds - just do what fits your personality best. Even the lowest paid physicians average above 100K a year.

Stark
 
Originally posted by Rajshah
I do not exactly have a great calling for any of the medical specialties.
Just out of curiosity, are you even in med school yet? If so, what year are you in? It's one thing to say you don't have a great calling for any of the specialties after your 3rd year, but quite another to say it before hand. Just make sure you find someone to pay for school so you can easily switch fields if you end up not matching in ophtho or even worse - matching and then hating it.
Originally posted by Rajshah
So far "time" is something which is also precious, as it can never be reclaimed. Hence Ophthalmology has become one of the most if not the most competitive field out there.
Why not go for derm or become an orthodontist if you're not in med school yet? They have the best lifestyles - zero call. Derm, integrated plastics, rads, ortho, urology, neurosurg, rad onc, ENT, cardiology, CT surg and probably a few others are all just as competitive if not more than ophtho.
 
Originally posted by GeddyLee

I think Radiology is the biggest joke though. All the top medical students applying for a field that doesn't involve hardly any direct patient care. It's so obvious it's because of the recent salary boom. A few years ago, anyone could do rads...and those are the people who are reaping the benefits of the salary hike. I heard apps for radiology are up 20% this year from last.

There was a drop in the competitiveness of radiology in the mid nineties, mostly due to dire, but inaccurate, predictions by a government agency that there would be no jobs available for rads. Prior to this, throughout much of the eighties and early nineties, radiology was just as competitive as it is now. It was the cutting edge of medicine back then with rapid advances in CT and MRI technology and it still is. So, many people that may have been interested in radiology in the mid nineties opted out due to worries about finding a position after residency rather than lack of interest.

Maybe you don't realize this, but the lack of direct patient care is part of the draw of radiology. Many people realize after third year that taking care of patients is not for them. I only realized the extreme frustration of much of patient care during my internal medicine preliminary year and am soooo thankful that I chose radiology (IM was my second choice). I love the challenging cases that I face in radiology every day and the intellectual side of radiology that I can experience without the day to day grind of clinical medicine.

So please stop stating that most people that choose radiology of being money hungry people who are only in it for the hours and money. It is definitely not so.
 
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