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kerplunk112

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so I have a friend who is mad at me because i told her if i were black or hispanic i would have an easier time getting into medical school....which last time i checked was true? it came up in a conversation we were having about affirmative action.

just wondering what ya'll minorities thought about that. do you think that many ppl simply assume that you got into to higher education based on race rather than merit? that would piss me off.. and i only ask b/c i was at one of my texas interviews at a school that shall not be named..and some guy who apparently though we were friends...refered to this african american woman sitting next to me as the "affirmative action chick." Sometimes i really hate the south..

for the record im a huge fan of urm status...i think we need reparations..just kidding..well maybe not if you american indian...i think we owe you one. and by we i mean white people. :)

oh and while this is completely unrelated.. as a PSA....hindi is a language and hindu refers to a religion.. thanks.
 

youngnflyy

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I have a feeling this post won't be around too much longer, however I personally do not care what anyone thinks of my "URM" status. I know that I will have worked just as hard, if not harder than many others to get into medical school. When you've been a minority your whole life, you kind of get used to people looking down on you, or having lowered expectations.
 
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kerplunk112

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not around too much longer? wow i tried to word it in the least offensive way possible..but yeah maybe if we dont talk about racial issues in this country they will just go away......

anyways i thought i had a valid question...apparently not....

maybe im missing the ultimate purpose of urm status
 

Falco2525

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its basic supply and demand...low supply of urms....and high demand for them as physicians...thus there is no reason that it should not be a part of the admissions process...in the end everyone earns there spot in medical school...they ones not getting interviews and blaming urms are the ones who need to look at their personal statement for the reason for becoming a physician...
 

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no - not true. I think I sorta understand why people can get so upset over the URM thing.

With a 3.9 and a 35Q MCAT - I would've gotten into WUSTL no problem if I was a URM. No problem.

At the same time, somebody's got to increase URM enrollment - so while I will admit that I will be quite resentful if I don't get accepted by wustl...even if I get waitlisted I will be resentful - I understand why this needs to be so. So my resentment would go away very quickly...I'm sure everyone goes through an initial reaction of sadness or anger when they find out they got rejected from their first choice...so my resentment would be tied into this initial natural reaction...and then disappear with it...I think it usually lasts a few days. Anyway - whatever, this is how it works so let it be.
 

Dookter

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they ones not getting interviews and blaming urms are the ones who need to look at their personal statement for the reason for becoming a physician...

Um, actually those are the ones who actually have a right to complain. Blaming URMs is not the answer, but complaining about the system seems fair. The ones with no right whatsoever to complain are upper-middle class white kids whose parents are doctors who think they are getting screwed when they do not get an interview at Harvard. However, the working class white kid who had disadvantages along the way does have a right to complain about the process when he/she gets no interviews while URMs with similar disadvantages [or MAYBE no disadvantages at all if they are wealthy URMs] and similar scores walk right through the door with an acceptance... This obviously is not specific to medical school admissions, but there is definitely an entire subset of the population who seems to consistently get screwed by actually facing disadvantages that hold them back but without the advantage(?) of the appropriate skin color to validate those disadvantages. It's the group of white kids who are in that gray area between blantant disadvantaged status with poverty and no disadvantage that are probably wondering who has their back in this whole process...
 

Falco2525

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Um, actually those are the ones who actually have a right to complain. Blaming URMs is not the answer, but complaining about the system seems fair. The ones with no right whatsoever to complain are upper-middle class white kids whose parents are doctors who think they are getting screwed when they do not get an interview at Harvard. However, the working class white kid who had disadvantages along the way does have a right to complain about the process when he/she gets no interviews while URMs with similar disadvantages [or MAYBE no disadvantages at all if they are wealthy URMs] and similar scores walk right through the door with an acceptance... This obviously is not specific to medical school admissions, but there is definitely an entire subset of the population who seems to consistently get screwed by actually facing disadvantages that hold them back but without the advantage(?) of the appropriate skin color to validate those disadvantages. It's the group of white kids who are in that gray area between blantant disadvantaged status with poverty and no disadvantage that are probably wondering who has their back in this whole process...

i concur...this is what i was tring to get at...to me urm is disadvantaged...so i guess my post was more for disadvantaged
 

sirus_virus

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no - not true. I think I sorta understand why people can get so upset over the URM thing.

With a 3.9 and a 35Q MCAT - I would've gotten into WUSTL no problem if I was a URM. No problem.

At the same time, somebody's got to increase URM enrollment - so while I will admit that I will be quite resentful if I don't get accepted by wustl...even if I get waitlisted I will be resentful - I understand why this needs to be so. So my resentment would go away very quickly...I'm sure everyone goes through an initial reaction of sadness or anger when they find out they got rejected from their first choice...so my resentment would be tied into this initial natural reaction...and then disappear with it...I think it usually lasts a few days. Anyway - whatever, this is how it works so let it be.

This is like saying "I could have nailed Angelina Jolie if I were Brad Pitt", it turns out that you are not. What makes you think you would have the same grades and MCAT if you were a URM.
 

Falco2525

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no - not true. I think I sorta understand why people can get so upset over the URM thing.

With a 3.9 and a 35Q MCAT - I would've gotten into WUSTL no problem if I was a URM. No problem.

At the same time, somebody's got to increase URM enrollment - so while I will admit that I will be quite resentful if I don't get accepted by wustl...even if I get waitlisted I will be resentful - I understand why this needs to be so. So my resentment would go away very quickly...I'm sure everyone goes through an initial reaction of sadness or anger when they find out they got rejected from their first choice...so my resentment would be tied into this initial natural reaction...and then disappear with it...I think it usually lasts a few days. Anyway - whatever, this is how it works so let it be.

I see where you are coming from...but what I have noticed during this process is numbers will only get you so far...to get into top schools you have to have more than just the numbers...(not saying that you dont because I am sure you do) but I have found that schools actually really do care what is done with extracurricular time
 

Falco2525

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no - not true. I think I sorta understand why people can get so upset over the URM thing.

With a 3.9 and a 35Q MCAT - I would've gotten into WUSTL no problem if I was a URM. No problem.

At the same time, somebody's got to increase URM enrollment - so while I will admit that I will be quite resentful if I don't get accepted by wustl...even if I get waitlisted I will be resentful - I understand why this needs to be so. So my resentment would go away very quickly...I'm sure everyone goes through an initial reaction of sadness or anger when they find out they got rejected from their first choice...so my resentment would be tied into this initial natural reaction...and then disappear with it...I think it usually lasts a few days. Anyway - whatever, this is how it works so let it be.

I see where you are coming from...but what I have noticed during this process is numbers will only get you so far...to get into top schools you have to have more than just the numbers...(not saying that you dont because I am sure you do) but I have found that schools actually really do care what is done with extracurricular time
 

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To me it boils down to "life ain't fair".

Not getting in when you have better numbers sucks, as does getting frisked at routine traffic stops. It will also suck when a classmate's dad gets them into a cush residency.

dc
 
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Dookter

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To me it boils down to "life ain't fair".

Not getting in when you have better numbers sucks, as does getting frisked at routine traffic stops. It will also suck when a classmate's dad gets them into a cush residency.

dc

Exactly. I think it is important to remember that if you do happen to feel like you got screwed by the system, remember that it is the system that screwed you....it's not the URMs. Those students are just doing their thing and filling a much needed role in the healthcare system.....
 

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Um, actually those are the ones who actually have a right to complain. Blaming URMs is not the answer, but complaining about the system seems fair. The ones with no right whatsoever to complain are upper-middle class white kids whose parents are doctors who think they are getting screwed when they do not get an interview at Harvard. However, the working class white kid who had disadvantages along the way does have a right to complain about the process when he/she gets no interviews while URMs with similar disadvantages [or MAYBE no disadvantages at all if they are wealthy URMs] and similar scores walk right through the door with an acceptance... This obviously is not specific to medical school admissions, but there is definitely an entire subset of the population who seems to consistently get screwed by actually facing disadvantages that hold them back but without the advantage(?) of the appropriate skin color to validate those disadvantages. It's the group of white kids who are in that gray area between blantant disadvantaged status with poverty and no disadvantage that are probably wondering who has their back in this whole process...

As a person who are from that "no money+ working full time while in college white kid + disadvantages" group I agree with everything you said :) Nobody cares about hardships because there are so many well qualified applicants.
 

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I'm a non-urm minority, and even then, I get comments like "oh, they'll want you cause ur not white". Someone recently even told me "I made sure I studied hard for the MCAT because the white average is higher than others".

Also, a friendship in high school deteriorated when the two of us both applied to the University of Chicago, and my white friend didn't get in and I did and she later said to me "it's probably cause ur not white".

Moral of the story: refrain from those kinds of comments, because it may be true that URM's get into certain schools and maybe the URM average at that school is lower than the non-URM, but whatever comment can easily be interpreted as "u got in because of ur race" and not merits -- and duh, people will be offended.

in my case, I'm not even a URM, and yet I recieved such comments. Just don't say anything.
 

MonkeyNuts!

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There are plenty of threads on URMs in the SDN archives.

I am closing this thread, please use the search function.
 

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This is like saying "I could have nailed Angelina Jolie if I were Brad Pitt", it turns out that you are not. What makes you think you would have the same grades and MCAT if you were a URM.
Great point. It is what AA is actually citing as the reason, but what they fail to acknowledge is that all URM's are NOT disadvantaged. The disadvantaged population, regardless of race, should be given a boost.
 

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This is like saying "I could have nailed Angelina Jolie if I were Brad Pitt", it turns out that you are not. What makes you think you would have the same grades and MCAT if you were a URM.

What makes you think you would have the same grades and MCAT if you were a URM.

There is definitely room for significant misinterpretation of that statement. You are definitely heading down Joe Biden's path....Keep it up!!!!!:rolleyes:
 

nintendo

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Wait..I may make myself sound like an ignoramus with this question...Is there no difference between the URM status and the disadvantaged status? I thought they were two different categories?
 

sirus_virus

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What people don't know is that in some states like mine, if you are from an underserved area(white, black, hispanic, etc) you get admission concessions. I support that idea since most of us don't want to practice in those areas, so they need to go recruit people likely serve those people. Guys, stop whinning.
 

riceman04

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so I have a friend who is mad at me because i told her if i were black or hispanic i would have an easier time getting into medical school....which last time i checked was true? it came up in a conversation we were having about affirmative action.

just wondering what ya'll minorities thought about that. do you think that many ppl simply assume that you got into to higher education based on race rather than merit? that would piss me off.. and i only ask b/c i was at one of my texas interviews at a school that shall not be named..and some guy who apparently though we were friends...refered to this african american woman sitting next to me as the "affirmative action chick." Sometimes i really hate the south..

for the record im a huge fan of urm status...i think we need reparations..just kidding..well maybe not if you american indian...i think we owe you one. and by we i mean white people. :)

oh and while this is completely unrelated.. as a PSA....hindi is a language and hindu refers to a religion.. thanks.

What you ask is definitely a question that many people have on their mind but refuse to bring up for fear of being labeled a bigot.

Yeah I will say that both I and the valedictorian of my high school class (a while back) were approached by several non-URM classmates who made the assumption that aa played a role in our admission to elite universities...when clearly we had the highest gpa and SAT scores in a class full of overachievers.

Obviously there is some truth to the statement that being a URM is definitely be of some benefit in the medical school application process. However, I think that that benefit is much less significant (collectively) than people would like to believe. And since most people would rather formulate arguments predicated on anecdotal evidence rather than fact, people consequently develop severely skewed views of aa.

I do want to say that there is a difference between understanding how aa may affect one's personal app status (and being upset over it) and using such policies as a reason to allow your true identity express itself in form of disparaging remarks (similar to the one that kid next to you made).

GO RICE!!!!!! TUCK FEXAS!!!!!
 

riceman04

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What people don't know is that in some states like mine, if you are from an underserved area(white or black) you get admission concessions. I support that idea since most of us don't want to practice in those areas, so they need to go recruit people likely serve those people. Guys, stop whinning.

I honestly think that those concessions are applicable at many schools across the country.
 
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BarrySanders

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Great point. It is what AA is actually citing as the reason, but what they fail to acknowledge is that all URM's are NOT disadvantaged. The disadvantaged population, regardless of race, should be given a boost.

That is why there is a section on the AMCAS to signifiy if you are disadvantaged. So, the disadvantaged population, regardless of race, is being given a boost. There are just no stats put out by the AAMC separating scores for all applicants who claimed disadvantaged status.
 

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With a 3.9 and a 35Q MCAT - I would've gotten into WUSTL no problem if I was a URM. No problem.

How can you be so sure this is true?
For top schools URMs need more than just numbers to get in. If they need just numbers well that says something about the school doesn't it?

(I do, however, believe that a URM wth those numbers will absolutely get in to some sort of MD school, though not neccessarily a top school)
 

p9142

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With a 3.9 and a 35Q MCAT - I would've gotten into WUSTL no problem if I was a URM. No problem.

That is a nonsense statement. The average at WashU is 37MCAT. I'm sure when you interviewed there you noticed the poster in the waiting room/admissions office that had the pictures of all the M1 students. When I looked at that thing I remember thinking, "Man this place is like the United Nations." There must have been 20 URM students on that poster (just guessing.) It might be true that a 35 is the average URM score at WashU, but saying that you could get in easily with a 35 is simply not true. I think that if you are a URM applying to WashU, you still need stellar stats.
 

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That is a nonsense statement. The average at WashU is 37MCAT. I'm sure when you interviewed there you noticed the poster in the waiting room/admissions office that had the pictures of all the M1 students. When I looked at that thing I remember thinking, "Man this place is like the United Nations." There must have been 20 URM students on that poster (just guessing.) It might be true that a 35 is the average URM score at WashU, but saying that you could get in easily with a 35 is simply not true. I think that if you are a URM applying to WashU, you still need stellar stats.
when i was there, i remembered seeing the same poster and thinking...where are all the asians? i only saw like, 3 or something. :/ maybe i wasn't looking hard enough. :p
 

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That is a nonsense statement. The average at WashU is 37MCAT. I'm sure when you interviewed there you noticed the poster in the waiting room/admissions office that had the pictures of all the M1 students. When I looked at that thing I remember thinking, "Man this place is like the United Nations." There must have been 20 URM students on that poster (just guessing.) It might be true that a 35 is the average URM score at WashU, but saying that you could get in easily with a 35 is simply not true. I think that if you are a URM applying to WashU, you still need stellar stats.

I disagree in regards the pictures of MS1 students. Overall, I thought the class was a lot less diverse than other schools.
 

crimsonkid85

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ha! i knew i couldn't have been the only one. i remember actually whispering the same observation out to a friend of mine while we were waiting in that stuffy room WITHOUT enough CHAIRS. also, an ASIAN assistant director of admissions. hmmmmm.......
 

QuantumMechanic

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This is like saying "I could have nailed Angelina Jolie if I were Brad Pitt", it turns out that you are not. What makes you think you would have the same grades and MCAT if you were a URM.

I'd be offended by your statement if I were an URM. Suggesting that being an URM=lower MCAT and GPA suggests that URMs have lower intelligence and work ethic than non-URMs. Although cultural factors may play into disparities in these objective measures, there are who URMs do not come from disadvantaged backgrounds (i.e. they grew up in white suburbia, goto Ivies and other nice private schools, etc.) who really aren't at the same disadvantage as the former high school dropout who grew up in the ghetto.
 

xylem29

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That is a nonsense statement. The average at WashU is 37MCAT. I'm sure when you interviewed there you noticed the poster in the waiting room/admissions office that had the pictures of all the M1 students. When I looked at that thing I remember thinking, "Man this place is like the United Nations." There must have been 20 URM students on that poster (just guessing.) It might be true that a 35 is the average URM score at WashU, but saying that you could get in easily with a 35 is simply not true. I think that if you are a URM applying to WashU, you still need stellar stats.

Do a search on mdapps and not only will you find that my statement MAYBE true - I'll concede that it is an assumption - you will see two URMs this cycle that not only have a 33 or 32 (can't remember) but a 3.7 or something...

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=5420 Here's one example.

Anyway, I don't want to get into any arguements or debates about this whole URM thingy - because from the most objective perspective, it really is for the greater good. I understand that the powers that be, at this particular point in time, feel that NON race-blind admissions policies, wrt to URM's, is the only solution to the healthcare disparities of URM patient populations; shortages of URMs in medicine; and finally to take into account the economic and social disadvantages that some URMs face. I have no problems with that.

But I gotta say, that it still feels kinda sh*tty when you see the statistics that shows that URMs are not ALWAYS subject to the same "numbers" standards...but I am certainly not bitter. Feel a bit sh*tty, yes, but this is the way it must be for now. I mean, think hard about it - if URMs need to have the exact same high numbers as everyone else - what the heck is the point of even checking off the URM box in the first place?

Maybe someone should do a poll or summarize the statistics - does checking off the URM box confer even a slight advantage for the applicant? Yes or No?
 

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Maybe someone should do a poll or summarize the statistics - does checking off the URM box confer even a slight advantage for the applicant? Yes or No?

URM status helps, sure. It's not like these applicants are bad applicants. But it certainly does help. It's not just medical school, but really higher education in general.
 

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This is like saying "I could have nailed Angelina Jolie if I were Brad Pitt", it turns out that you are not. What makes you think you would have the same grades and MCAT if you were a URM.[/QUOTE]

It was an assumption of mine - so I take back what I said.

But, I'm interpreting the bolded part to mean that if I were a URM, I may somehow be disadvantaged in my educational opportunities - Not all URMs come from this background. But all URMs are URMs in the admissions process - truly disadvantaged or not.
 
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sunnyjohn

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so I have a friend who is mad at me because i told her if i were black or hispanic i would have an easier time getting into medical school....which last time i checked was true? it came up in a conversation we were having about affirmative action.

just wondering what ya'll minorities thought about that. do you think that many ppl simply assume that you got into to higher education based on race rather than merit? that would piss me off.. and i only ask b/c i was at one of my texas interviews at a school that shall not be named..and some guy who apparently though we were friends...refered to this african american woman sitting next to me as the "affirmative action chick." Sometimes i really hate the south..

for the record im a huge fan of urm status...i think we need reparations..just kidding..well maybe not if you american indian...i think we owe you one. and by we i mean white people. :)

oh and while this is completely unrelated.. as a PSA....hindi is a language and hindu refers to a religion.. thanks.


This has to be the funniest post on the URM/AA situation psoted on SDN ever!

ROFLMNENO!!! Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Non-Existant Nuts Off! :laugh:

*Sunny nominates the OP for first prize*
 

BigRedPremed

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Do a search on mdapps and not only will you find that my statement MAYBE true - I'll concede that it is an assumption - you will see two URMs this cycle that not only have a 33 or 32 (can't remember) but a 3.7 or something...

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=5420 Here's one example.

Anyway, I don't want to get into any arguements or debates about this whole URM thingy - because from the most objective perspective, it really is for the greater good. I understand that the powers that be, at this particular point in time, feel that NON race-blind admissions policies, wrt to URM's, is the only solution to the healthcare disparities of URM patient populations; shortages of URMs in medicine; and finally to take into account the economic and social disadvantages that some URMs face. I have no problems with that.

But I gotta say, that it still feels kinda sh*tty when you see the statistics that shows that URMs are not ALWAYS subject to the same "numbers" standards...but I am certainly not bitter. Feel a bit sh*tty, yes, but this is the way it must be for now. I mean, think hard about it - if URMs need to have the exact same high numbers as everyone else - what the heck is the point of even checking off the URM box in the first place?

Maybe someone should do a poll or summarize the statistics - does checking off the URM box confer even a slight advantage for the applicant? Yes or No?


I would say that the advantage is more than just "slight." Just my opinion.
 

p9142

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Do a search on mdapps and not only will you find that my statement MAYBE true - I'll concede that it is an assumption - you will see two URMs this cycle that not only have a 33 or 32 (can't remember) but a 3.7 or something...

I'm definitely not going to disagree with you there. I personally believe URM status is a huge plus on an application. I was just disagreeing with your statement that if you have a 35 an are URM you can get into WashU easily. I don't think anyone gets into WashU, or any top 5 school for that matter, easily.
 

sunnyjohn

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"Med school applications- The one time everybody want to be black!"

That would make an interesting T-shirt or bumper sticker... (DKM... DKM... Eternal???)

ROFL! :laugh:

Ya'll need Jesus!
 

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To me it boils down to "life ain't fair".

Not getting in when you have better numbers sucks, as does getting frisked at routine traffic stops. It will also suck when a classmate's dad gets them into a cush residency.

dc

Yeh but discriminating against non-URMs in the admission process doesn't make it right. Chances are the person losing a spot to a URM with lower stats hasn't been racist at all. When this person hears about URMs getting in with lower stats do you really think they won't start becoming racist? Affirmative action is a new source of racism for those who orginally weren't.

If you want to fight racists, go after the racists and the sexists, not the people who happen to be the same race as them.
 

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I have a feeling this post won't be around too much longer, however I personally do not care what anyone thinks of my "URM" status. I know that I will have worked just as hard, if not harder than many others to get into medical school. When you've been a minority your whole life, you kind of get used to people looking down on you, or having lowered expectations.

I couldn't agree more. :thumbup:
 

QuantumMechanic

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I'm definitely not going to disagree with you there. I personally believe URM status is a huge plus on an application. I was just disagreeing with your statement that if you have a 35 an are URM you can get into WashU easily. I don't think anyone gets into WashU, or any top 5 school for that matter, easily.

I guess the point really is that all other things being equal (but they never are), the URM candidate will get in over the non-URM.
 

phantom limb

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I have a feeling this post won't be around too much longer, however I personally do not care what anyone thinks of my "URM" status. I know that I will have worked just as hard, if not harder than many others to get into medical school. When you've been a minority your whole life, you kind of get used to people looking down on you, or having lowered expectations.

This is so true. I was told in high school that my SAT score was only as high as it was because they added points due to my race. Even when you manage to "prove" yourself, it's not enough.
 

DoctaJay

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FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

1) Why aren’t Asians considered for AA?

Because the purpose of AA is to increase the number of physicians that are underrepresented in MEDICINE. As you can see above, Asians are not underrepresented in medicine.

2) Why would the AAMC desire to increase the amount of physicians underrepresented in medicine?

1) minority physicians are more willing to practice in underserved population areas 2) with an ever increasing minority population, more minority physicians are needed to serve them 3) patient satisfaction is integral to health care, and minority patients are more satisfied with minority doctors 4) more minority physicians yields more health care data from minority populations that helps in researching specific diseases plaguing these communities. 5) diverse medical school class creates culturally competent doctors 6)

3) Why not just base AA on socio-economic status?

Do you remember the section on AMCAS where you can check off whether you are disadvantaged or not? That is where socioeconomic status is taken into consideration.

4) Do all URMs get lower scores and get into medical school?

No. Most don’t get into medical school and most aren’t applying either. The average medical school has at the most 8 black students out of a class of 100 or more. About half of the ~35,000 applicants per year are not admitted to any school. About 10% of those who are admitted are URM and 10% of those who are not admitted are URM. So, currently ~15,750 non-URM do not get admitted to any school. If there were no URM, the number of non-URM who would not be admitted to any school would be ~14,000 (LizzyM)

5) Isn’t AA causing me to think that all minorities that are in my medical school got in only because of their race?

Don’t blame affirmative action. If you feel this way, there were already preconceived biases within you about the intelligence level of minorities. AA just provides an avenue to openly express these biases.

6) Can I trust a doctor who was admitted to medical school through AA?

Dr. Ben Carson would never be where he is without affirmative action (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf). Would you trust your child’s brain tumor to be extracted by him? Probably.

7) Has affirmative action worked?

Yes. In a study done by the University of Michigan (although its dated); affirmative action has worked. In the 1970s blacks made up only 2.7% of the 37,690 enrolled medical students. By 1977, blacks comprised 6.0% of the enrolled 60,039 medical students (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf)

8) Will black physicians return to black communities?

Yes. They serve predominantly black communities even when they are trained at non-minority medical schools. Also, research has shown that the nonminority peers of black medical students practice in predominantly white communities. (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf)

9) Would a race neutral medical school admissions policy produce graduates who would tend to go into underserved areas?

NO. One study shows that a race-neutral AA program produces a quite different outcome. During the 20-yyear period of 1968 to 1987 the University of California at Davis admitted 20% of its students, a total of 356 as special consideration admissions. Special admissions were defined as a race-neutral group that included students with less than a GPA of 3.0 (4.0 scale) and/or an MCAT average score less than 10 for the 4 test subscores; this group was matched with students admitted under regular admission criteria.

The special group contained 33% who did not meet the minimum GPA for regular admissions, 44% who did not meet minimum MCAT scores, and 23% who met neither. In background the special admissions students were 35% women; 46% non-Hispanic Whites; 42.7% URM in the categories of Black, Native American, Mexican American, mainland Puerto Rican; and 11% Asian and minority groups not included in the previous categories. Among the regularly admitted students, only 4% were URM students. Graduation rates were the SAME for special admission and other students, nor was there a difference in their postgraduate training choices, their specialty certification status, or their description of patients served. This indicates that race-neutral affirmative action based on lower GPA and/or MCAT scores does not predict future speciality or medical practice experience. (Davidson and Lewis 1997).

10) Is there a URM box that you check off?

No. The same box that you check off that you are Caucasian, Indian, or Asian is the same box that one checks off to designate if they are Black or Hispanic.
 

Psyche Estrelle

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This is so true. I was told in high school that my SAT score was only as high as it was because they added points due to my race. Even when you manage to "prove" yourself, it's not enough.

... are you serious?

I'm Hispanic and I'll tell you right now, nobody inflated my score. -_-
 

Baritonebass

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FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

1) Why aren’t Asians considered for AA?

Because the purpose of AA is to increase the number of physicians that are underrepresented in MEDICINE. As you can see above, Asians are not underrepresented in medicine.

2) Why would the AAMC desire to increase the amount of physicians underrepresented in medicine?

1) minority physicians are more willing to practice in underserved population areas 2) with an ever increasing minority population, more minority physicians are needed to serve them 3) patient satisfaction is integral to health care, and minority patients are more satisfied with minority doctors 4) more minority physicians yields more health care data from minority populations that helps in researching specific diseases plaguing these communities. 5) diverse medical school class creates culturally competent doctors 6)

3) Why not just base AA on socio-economic status?

Do you remember the section on AMCAS where you can check off whether you are disadvantaged or not? That is where socioeconomic status is taken into consideration.

4) Do all URMs get lower scores and get into medical school?

No. Most don’t get into medical school and most aren’t applying either. The average medical school has at the most 8 black students out of a class of 100 or more. About half of the ~35,000 applicants per year are not admitted to any school. About 10% of those who are admitted are URM and 10% of those who are not admitted are URM. So, currently ~15,750 non-URM do not get admitted to any school. If there were no URM, the number of non-URM who would not be admitted to any school would be ~14,000 (LizzyM)

5) Isn’t AA causing me to think that all minorities that are in my medical school got in only because of their race?

Don’t blame affirmative action. If you feel this way, there were already preconceived biases within you about the intelligence level of minorities. AA just provides an avenue to openly express these biases.

6) Can I trust a doctor who was admitted to medical school through AA?

Dr. Ben Carson would never be where he is without affirmative action (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf). Would you trust your child’s brain tumor to be extracted by him? Probably.

7) Has affirmative action worked?

Yes. In a study done by the University of Michigan (although its dated); affirmative action has worked. In the 1970s blacks made up only 2.7% of the 37,690 enrolled medical students. By 1977, blacks comprised 6.0% of the enrolled 60,039 medical students (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf)

8) Will black physicians return to black communities?

Yes. They serve predominantly black communities even when they are trained at non-minority medical schools. Also, research has shown that the nonminority peers of black medical students practice in predominantly white communities. (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf)

9) Would a race neutral medical school admissions policy produce graduates who would tend to go into underserved areas?

NO. One study shows that a race-neutral AA program produces a quite different outcome. During the 20-yyear period of 1968 to 1987 the University of California at Davis admitted 20% of its students, a total of 356 as special consideration admissions. Special admissions were defined as a race-neutral group that included students with less than a GPA of 3.0 (4.0 scale) and/or an MCAT average score less than 10 for the 4 test subscores; this group was matched with students admitted under regular admission criteria.

The special group contained 33% who did not meet the minimum GPA for regular admissions, 44% who did not meet minimum MCAT scores, and 23% who met neither. In background the special admissions students were 35% women; 46% non-Hispanic Whites; 42.7% URM in the categories of Black, Native American, Mexican American, mainland Puerto Rican; and 11% Asian and minority groups not included in the previous categories. Among the regularly admitted students, only 4% were URM students. Graduation rates were the SAME for special admission and other students, nor was there a difference in their postgraduate training choices, their specialty certification status, or their description of patients served. This indicates that race-neutral affirmative action based on lower GPA and/or MCAT scores does not predict future speciality or medical practice experience. (Davidson and Lewis 1997).

10) Is there a URM box that you check off?

No. The same box that you check off that you are Caucasian, Indian, or Asian is the same box that one checks off to designate if they are Black or Hispanic.

I so feel you Doc Jay....

And to all you whining liitle babys about URM your can complain When....

You inteviewing at a school with 20 people and you the only White person!!!
(yeah usually 10 white males, 6 white females, 3 asians, and me)
When the office of admission congradulates at being the 2nd black to interview (early November) and the first only accepted from Nov.- Dec. (boy I feel underrepresented).

Oh and my Mcat score was at most 2 or 3 points away from the average at the schools I interview at....

just in cause you wanted to know (Ohio state(Nov.), UAB(NOV.), Cornell(Dec.), George Wash.(Nov.), Albert Enstien (decline interview), University of Cinicnati(decline interview), UMDNJ-Newwark(decline interview))

Oh and I didn't decline the interviews because I was to good for thier school, I declined my interview cause I ran out of money for flights cause I'm disadvantaged.

Oh well I'm going to bed
 

johnnydrama

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Princeton:
Say, Kate, can I ask you a question?

Kate Monster:
Sure!

Princeton:
Well, you know Trekkie Monster upstairs?

Kate Monster:
Uh huh.

Princeton:
Well, he's Trekkie Monster, and you're Kate Monster.

Kate Monster:
Right.

Princeton:
You're both Monsters.

Kate Monster:
Yeah.

Princeton:
Are you two related?

Kate Monster:
What?! Princeton, I'm surprised at you! I find that racist!

Princeton:
Oh, well, I'm sorry! I was just asking!

Kate Monster:
Well, it's a touchy subject.
No, not all Monsters are related.
What are you trying say, huh?
That we all look the same to you?
Huh, huh, huh?

Princeton:
No, no, no, not at all. I'm sorry,
I guess that was a little racist.

Kate Monster:
I should say so. You should be much more
careful when you're talking about the
sensitive subject of race.

Princeton:
Well, look who's talking!

Kate Monster:
What do you mean?

Princeton:
What about that special Monster School you told me about?

Kate Monster:
What about it?

Princeton:
Could someone like me go there?

Kate Monster:
No, we don't want people like you-

Princeton:
You see?!

You're a little bit racist.

Kate Monster:
Well, you're a little bit too.

Princeton:
I guess we're both a little bit racist.

Kate Monster:
Admitting it is not an easy thing to do...

Princeton:
But I guess it's true.

Kate Monster:
Between me and you,
I think

Both:
Everyone's a little bit racist
Sometimes.
Doesn't mean we go
Around committing hate crimes.
Look around and you will find
No one's really color blind.
Maybe it's a fact
We all should face
Everyone makes judgments
Based on race.

Princeton:
Now not big judgments, like who to hire
or who to buy a newspaper from -

Kate Monster:
No!

Princeton:
No, just little judgments like thinking that Mexican
busboys should learn to speak goddamn English!

Kate Monster:
Right!

Both:
Everyone's a little bit racist
Today.
So, everyone's a little bit racist
Okay!
Ethinic jokes might be uncouth,
But you laugh because
They're based on truth.
Don't take them as
Personal attacks.
Everyone enjoys them -
So relax!

Princeton:
All right, stop me if you've heard this one.

Kate Monster:
Okay!

Princeton:
There's a plan going down and there's only
one paracute. And there's a rabbi, a priest...

Kate Monster:
And a black guy!

Gary Coleman:
Whatchoo talkin' 'bout Kate?

Kate Monster:
Uh...

Gary Coleman:
You were telling a black joke!

Princeton:
Well, sure, Gary, but lots of people tell black jokes.

Gary Coleman:
I don't.

Princeton:
Well, of course you don't - you're black!
But I bet you tell Polack jokes, right?

Gary Coleman:
Well, sure I do. Those stupid Polacks!

Princeton:
Now, don't you think that's a little racist?

Gary Coleman:
Well, damn, I guess you're right.

Kate Monster:
You're a little bit racist.

Gary Coleman:
Well, you're a little bit too.

Princeton:
We're all a little bit racist.

Gary Coleman:
I think that I would
Have to agree with you.

Princeton/Kate Monster:
We're glad you do.

Gary Coleman:
It's sad but true!
Everyone's a little bit racist -

All right!

Kate Monster:
All right!

Princeton:
All right!

Gary Coleman:
All right!
Bigotry has never been
Exclusively white

All:
If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit,
Even though we all know
That it's wrong,
Maybe it would help us
Get along.

Princeton:
Oh, Christ do I feel good.

Gary Coleman:
Now there was a fine upstanding black man!

Princeton:
Who?

Gary Coleman:
Jesus Christ.

Kate Monster:
But, Gary, Jesus was white.

Gary Coleman:
No, Jesus was black.

Kate Monster:
No, Jesus was white.

Gary Coleman:
No, I'm pretty sure that Jesus was black-

Princeton:
Guys, guys...Jesus was Jewish!

Brian:
Hey guys, what are you laughing about?

Gary Coleman:
Racism!

Brian:
Cool.

Christmas Eve:
BRIAN! Come back here!
You take out lecycuraburs!

Princeton:
What's that mean?

Brian:
Um, recyclables.
Hey, don't laugh at her!
How many languages do you speak?

Kate Monster:
Oh, come off it, Brian!
Everyone's a little bit racist.

Brian:
I'm not!

Princeton:
Oh no?

Brian:
Nope!

How many Oriental wives
Have you got?

Christmas Eve:
What? Brian!

Princeton:
Brian, buddy, where you been?
The term is Asian-American!

Christmas Eve:
I know you are no
Intending to be
But calling me Oriental -
Offensive to me!

Brian:
I'm sorry, honey, I love you.

Christmas Eve:
And I love you.

Brian:
But you're racist, too.

Christmas Eve:
Yes, I know.
The Jews have all
The money
And the whites have all
The power.
And I'm always in taxi-cab
With driver who no shower!

Princeton:
Me too!

Kate Monster:
Me too!

Gary Coleman:
I can't even get a taxi!

All:
Everyone's a little bit racist
It's true.
But everyone is just about
As racist as you!
If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit,
And everyone stopped being
So PC
Maybe we could live in -
Harmony!

Christmas Eve:
Evlyone's a ritter bit lacist!
 

Mr. Itchy

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I'm normally quite a troublemaker in these issues so here goes...


The AAMC can say whatever it would like about the "true" mission of URM status. The devil is in the details... URM = specific races in 90% of cases.

I was born lower middle class and my family has always worked very very hard. I never had it easy at home and I paid for my tuition completely on my own. I have always had trouble with my dad and left home before I turned 18, and will never go back to live. My family went on to do quite well but that doesn't mean I received much of it at all. Filling out the fafsa for undergrad was nice, I made a few grand and my parents made big $$$... That means that I get a piece of it right, NO!

No I don't deserve to have anyone placed in a special advantaged position over me, and I don't ask for advantage over anyone. To me, checking yourself off as a URM is cheating. That's right. Cheating. If you have the time to take this whole battery of courses that we all have to, then you have the time to get A's not D's. The financial aid out there is incredible and the dedicated student can work hard and succeed.

A disadvantaged person can be a stellar medical school candidate and write a personal statement that accurately reflects their life (as I have) without marking themselves off as URM. URM does not mean you give a rats ass about the disadvantaged and therein lies the rub. It is a crap shoot as to whether the URM is saying something to get into medical school so he can drive a Ferrarri one day or if he is in medical school to help people. As you can see from the AAMC website, its quite clear they believe URM automatically means more compassionate. If the AAMC dug deeper they may realize that disadvantaged people who struggled to attain admission, regardless of race, are more likely to feel compassion for those who were once in their position. Race need not enter the equation at all.

Yet the fact remains. URM = race = advantage in getting into medical school.



And just to throw this into the equation. My dad is not white. He's very dark and was born very poor in another country. Where I live, people call him a Mexican. I'm white. I wonder how different things could be if my skin was his color :O. Maybe I'd be tempted to cheat too. :thumbdown:
 

EndSong

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Okay I'll dive in this mess. Doctor Jay, some of your points are good, some of them are inaccurate.


2) Why would the AAMC desire to increase the amount of physicians underrepresented in medicine?

1) minority physicians are more willing to practice in underserved population areas 2) with an ever increasing minority population, more minority physicians are needed to serve them 3) patient satisfaction is integral to health care, and minority patients are more satisfied with minority doctors 4) more minority physicians yields more health care data from minority populations that helps in researching specific diseases plaguing these communities. 5) diverse medical school class creates culturally competent doctors 6)

If we just wanted to serve underserved communities, there should be a check box on the AMCAS for people with a strong, intense and DEMONSTRATED commitment to these communities (reasons 1 and 2). Last I heard, there are also some Black plastic surgeons and I am clueless on how they actually benefit the underserved. Claims 3 and 5 and dubious at best, I'm not even sure there are really any thorough studies out there that quantify a culturally competent doctors versus culturally incompetent doctor and the long-term outcome of their patients. If claims 3, 4 and 5 are true, then 5-10% of all doctors should be gay, lesbian, transexual or bisexual. Because only with a gay doctor are gay patients comfortable, and having gay doctors would allow a more thorough collection of data on the gay community. But I don't see people pro-AA standing on the soap box for including other minorities like gay people in that group.

4) Do all URMs get lower scores and get into medical school?

No. Most don’t get into medical school and most aren’t applying either. The average medical school has at the most 8 black students out of a class of 100 or more. About half of the ~35,000 applicants per year are not admitted to any school. About 10% of those who are admitted are URM and 10% of those who are not admitted are URM. So, currently ~15,750 non-URM do not get admitted to any school. If there were no URM, the number of non-URM who would not be admitted to any school would be ~14,000 (LizzyM)

The stats about how many URMs get in and how many URMs don't get in do not answer your question. A better way of answering your question is to actually talk about URM scores versus non-URM scores, not statistics on admissions.

5) Isn’t AA causing me to think that all minorities that are in my medical school got in only because of their race?

Don’t blame affirmative action. If you feel this way, there were already preconceived biases within you about the intelligence level of minorities. AA just provides an avenue to openly express these biases.

This is just a loaded question, although I think the essence is valid. Most medical students probably do not spend a lot of their time thinking: "Damn those Nigerians, they got in because of their race! OOOhhh I'm so mad!" They probably have bigger fish to fry.

6) Can I trust a doctor who was admitted to medical school through AA?

Dr. Ben Carson would never be where he is without affirmative action (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf). Would you trust your child’s brain tumor to be extracted by him? Probably.

Last time I checked, a single person does not constitute a valid study that you can draw any valid general conclusions from. A better source of data would be following a large number of black students who got in with lower stats and see how they performed on USMLE step 2 and step 3. There are news articles on this and a few written by independent think tanks. They all tend to report the same thing: URMs who get in with statistically significant lower stats tend to underperform in USMLE step 2 and step 3. See the Centers of Excellence for more details.

7) Has affirmative action worked?

Yes. In a study done by the University of Michigan (although its dated); affirmative action has worked. In the 1970s blacks made up only 2.7% of the 37,690 enrolled medical students. By 1977, blacks comprised 6.0% of the enrolled 60,039 medical students (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf)

And a follow up question to this is how have black medical students increased in medical school enrollment since 1977 to... I dunno 30 years later in 2007? The answer to this is that blacks are still URM for a reason, they still constitute approx 6% of the national medical student body. So I guess affirmative action may have worked from 1970 to 1977, but it don't seem to be doing so well in the subsequent 30 years. See the book, The Chosen and Time to Heal, for more details.
 

DoctaJay

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I'm normally quite a troublemaker in these issues so here goes...


The AAMC can say whatever it would like about the "true" mission of URM status. The devil is in the details... URM = specific races in 90% of cases.

I was born lower middle class and my family has always worked very very hard. I never had it easy at home and I paid for my tuition completely on my own. I have always had trouble with my dad and left home before I turned 18, and will never go back to live. My family went on to do quite well but that doesn't mean I received much of it at all. Filling out the fafsa for undergrad was nice, I made a few grand and my parents made big $$$... That means that I get a piece of it right, NO!

No I don't deserve to have anyone placed in a special advantaged position over me, and I don't ask for advantage over anyone. To me, checking yourself off as a URM is cheating. That's right. Cheating. If you have the time to take this whole battery of courses that we all have to, then you have the time to get A's not D's. The financial aid out there is incredible and the dedicated student can work hard and succeed.

A disadvantaged person can be a stellar medical school candidate and write a personal statement that accurately reflects their life (as I have) without marking themselves off as URM. URM does not mean you give a rats ass about the disadvantaged and therein lies the rub. It is a crap shoot as to whether the URM is saying something to get into medical school so he can drive a Ferrarri one day or if he is in medical school to help people. As you can see from the AAMC website, its quite clear they believe URM automatically means more compassionate. If the AAMC dug deeper they may realize that disadvantaged people who struggled to attain admission, regardless of race, are more likely to feel compassion for those who were once in their position. Race need not enter the equation at all.

Yet the fact remains. URM = race = advantage in getting into medical school.



And just to throw this into the equation. My dad is not white. He's very dark and was born very poor in another country. Where I live, people call him a Mexican. I'm white. I wonder how different things could be if my skin was his color :O. Maybe I'd be tempted to cheat too. :thumbdown:
Trust me, if you are truly disadvantaged, you can be as white as snow and you WILL have an advantage.
 

DoctaJay

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Okay I'll dive in this mess. Doctor Jay, some of your points are good, some of them are inaccurate.




If we just wanted to serve underserved communities, there should be a check box on the AMCAS for people with a strong, intense and DEMONSTRATED commitment to these communities (reasons 1 and 2). Last I heard, there are also some Black plastic surgeons and I am clueless on how they actually benefit the underserved. Claims 3 and 5 and dubious at best, I'm not even sure there are really any thorough studies out there that quantify a culturally competent doctors versus culturally incompetent doctor and the long-term outcome of their patients. If claims 3, 4 and 5 are true, then 5-10% of all doctors should be gay, lesbian, transexual or bisexual. Because only with a gay doctor are gay patients comfortable, and having gay doctors would allow a more thorough collection of data on the gay community. But I don't see people pro-AA standing on the soap box for including other minorities like gay people in that group.

I laugh out loud when this is suggested. Medical schools are not arbitrarily deciding that black people will go back and working in underserved areas and that non-minority people won't. RESEARCH has shown that this is that case, and the preponderance of evidence points to the fact that if you had to blindly choose a person who will go back into inner Baltimore and set up a practice, you have a better chance with a minority. And yes of course you do have those black doctors who choose to go into plastics (because it is a choice), but that doesn't mean that the majority do, and that it is bad if some don't. Here are the source proving what I'm saying:

Effects of Affirmative Action in Medical Schools: A Study of the Class of
1975, 313 New Eng. J. Med. 1519, 1524 (1985) (demonstrating that minority physicians are more likely to serve minority patients even when controlling for premedical school performance and socioeconomic backgrounds);
and Physician Race and Care of Minority and Medically Indigent Patients, 273 JAMA 1515, 1517 (1995)
(revealing that minority patients were over four times more likely
to receive care from non-white physicians than were Caucasian
patients)
and Patient-
Physician Racial Concordance and the Perceived Quality and
Use of Health Care, 159 ARCH Intern. Med. 997, 1000 (1999)
(hereinafter “Saha, Patient-Physician Concordance”)
(“[A]lthough black physicians account for less than 5% of the
total U.S. physician workforce, they served as regular health
care providers for 23% of the black individuals in [the study]
sample.”)
and Physician Service to the Underserved: Implications for Affirmative Action in Medical Education, 33
Inquiry 167, 173 (1996); see also Kington, supra, at 85 (“Strong,
compelling evidence suggests that minority physicians are
indeed more likely to provide precisely those services that may
be most likely to reduce racial and ethnic health disparities,
namely primary care services for underserved poor and minority
populations.”).



The stats about how many URMs get in and how many URMs don't get in do not answer your question. A better way of answering your question is to actually talk about URM scores versus non-URM scores, not statistics on admissions.

Good point, I'll work on that.




This is just a loaded question, although I think the essence is valid. Most medical students probably do not spend a lot of their time thinking: "Damn those Nigerians, they got in because of their race! OOOhhh I'm so mad!" They probably have bigger fish to fry.
I think that you would be surprised. Check the following thread out from the Allopathic thread...it has something interesting, of course anecdotal, stories:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=271617&highlight=URM


Last time I checked, a single person does not constitute a valid study that you can draw any valid general conclusions from. A better source of data would be following a large number of black students who got in with lower stats and see how they performed on USMLE step 2 and step 3. There are news articles on this and a few written by independent think tanks. They all tend to report the same thing: URMs who get in with statistically significant lower stats tend to underperform in USMLE step 2 and step 3. See the Centers of Excellence for more details.
While I agree about the number of people I used to draw my conclusion, the fact still remains that we can't continue to be idiots and believe that there is a direct correlation between undergraduate GPA and MCAT scores and what kind of doctor you will be. Although people who don't do well on standardized tests (many URMs) probably won't do well on the boards, if they pass, then they passed. Does the level of passing denote a good doctor? No. Ask any person in their residency,and they will tell you that it doesn't matter. What you do in the hospital is a completely different bowl of soup than a standardized test. So that correlation can't be made. Heck even PandaBear has said something to the effect that he could teach a well trained monkey to do medicine. Its not about performance of your MCAT and GPA.


And a follow up question to this is how have black medical students increased in medical school enrollment since 1977 to... I dunno 30 years later in 2007? The answer to this is that blacks are still URM for a reason, they still constitute approx 6% of the national medical student body. So I guess affirmative action may have worked from 1970 to 1977, but it don't seem to be doing so well in the subsequent 30 years. See the book, The Chosen and Time to Heal, for more details.
I think you have a crack in your logic. To say that affirmative action worked in increasing black enrollmentment from 2% to 6% is correct. But to say that it isnt' working because it hasn't increase enrollment from 6% to 12% is illogical. Actually, if affirmative action was completely abolished, black enrollment would PLUMMENT. So affirmative action is keeping it steady, meaning that it is still working. Look at the following quote taken from an AAMC brief:

Whatever
the reasons, however, the inescapable reality is this: if medical
schools were to rely only on MCAT scores and an individual’s
undergraduate GPA, the number of admitted underrepresented
minorities would plummet. Underrepresented minorities would
have been expected to constitute only 3% of those accepted to
enter medical school in 2001, instead of the 11% that was
actually observed.3 In real numbers, this would mean that, out
of the roughly 17,000 individuals who were accepted to at least
one medical school in the United States in 2001 (from among
some 34,500 applicants), the number of underrepresented
minorities who were accepted would have decreased from 1,868
to 537 students. See App. 2.
 

Stolenspatulas

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I so feel you Doc Jay....

And to all you whining liitle babys about URM your can complain When....

You inteviewing at a school with 20 people and you the only White person!!!
(yeah usually 10 white males, 6 white females, 3 asians, and me)
When the office of admission congradulates at being the 2nd black to interview (early November) and the first only accepted from Nov.- Dec. (boy I feel underrepresented).

Oh and my Mcat score was at most 2 or 3 points away from the average at the schools I interview at....

just in cause you wanted to know (Ohio state(Nov.), UAB(NOV.), Cornell(Dec.), George Wash.(Nov.), Albert Enstien (decline interview), University of Cinicnati(decline interview), UMDNJ-Newwark(decline interview))

Oh and I didn't decline the interviews because I was to good for thier school, I declined my interview cause I ran out of money for flights cause I'm disadvantaged.

Oh well I'm going to bed

Let it be on the record that I am FOR Affirmative Action and for the URM advantage.

However, it is posts like these that really irritate me. I am Asian Indian and I'm not lying when I say that I've interviewed at schools where there were more Blacks interviewing than Indians. I have never thought twice about it. It doesn't matter. I don't feel like I have the power to call upon my whole race and claim that "wow I feel very underrepresented here." That sort of reasoning is so bizarre to me. Don't you see that it psychologically holds the individual back? Even though I am the only Indian person there... who cares?! I am there. I have a shot of getting into medical school.

2-3 mcat points is a lot... you should truly realize how big of an advantage you are getting by still getting interviews at these places while having a significantly lower mcat score than there posted average.

So you declined schools because you didn't have the money to fly out. Hmm. Well I dont have any money either. So what did I do? I have taken a year off and scraped up some dollars so that when I apply I can actually follow through and visit schools that offer me interviews. Its futile to begin this process with the idea that you will turn down interviews because of money. I dont think you realize how awesome it is to get interview invites (its insane to many people on SDN that some turn down interviews because of money). If you are disadvantaged, and dont have any money, well, take a year off and make some money. Then apply. You are only doing yourself a diservice if you are not prepared for this process. Claiming that your situation is at a disadvantage is such an easy cop-out. I am at a disadvantage as an individual in many ways. I had to scrape up the dollars to apply. That doesn't mean I have to be so open to complain about it.

BTW, I am for affirmative action and the URM advantage.
 
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