ABSOLUTsher07

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For the moral dilemma question for the Pitt supplementary application, I wrote about how my pledge class was being hazed by my sorority, and how I decided to report it. I didn't delve too deep into the specifics of the hazing, so I'm wondering if I should include that?
Someone posted a reply about how they thought it might make me come off as a tattletale unless I was getting the **** beat out of me during hazing. It wasn't that bad, but it was bad. It kind of makes me angry because those people are the ones saying "suck it up and deal," which is why hazing occurs in the first place. I'm glad I did it, and I feel really passionate about having played a small role in stopping my organization's hazing tradition.
I know I could easily write about how I helped my friend through her eating disorder, or saw someone stealing at work, but those are such generic topics. what do you guys think? (PS sorry about the longness of this post, I just had to vent!)
 

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ABSOLUTsher07 said:
For the moral dilemma question for the Pitt supplementary application, I wrote about how my pledge class was being hazed by my sorority, and how I decided to report it. I didn't delve too deep into the specifics of the hazing, so I'm wondering if I should include that?
Someone posted a reply about how they thought it might make me come off as a tattletale unless I was getting the **** beat out of me during hazing. It wasn't that bad, but it was bad. It kind of makes me angry because those people are the ones saying "suck it up and deal," which is why hazing occurs in the first place. I'm glad I did it, and I feel really passionate about having played a small role in stopping my organization's hazing tradition.
I know I could easily write about how I helped my friend through her eating disorder, or saw someone stealing at work, but those are such generic topics. what do you guys think? (PS sorry about the longness of this post, I just had to vent!)
Well. This sounds like a genuine moral dilemma you faced. I would go ahead and write about it. Just be prepared to talk about all aspects of it in an interview.
 

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You sit through all of these anti-hazing speeches at formal rush, and then when you get in the situation you're just supposed to take it. You didn't want to be physically abused in a club that you were paying to join. They stated the rules to you guys and then went right ahead and broke them.

Now. Adcoms aren't stupid. There is a lot of underage drinking (and even sometimes a lot of drugs, diet and otherwise) that goes on in sororities, too--pregaming and all of that. You didn't object there, did you? Because underage drinking is against the law as well. Ah, the things we don't talk about in Greek life. You can't call bulls*it on one thing and not call it on the rest, in my opinion.

I am not sure if being in a sorority (or highlighting your membership) will help you more than it might hurt you, is all. In the actual world, I don't think it is seen as being a plus--most traditionally white sororities don't do much "service" besides a dance marathon or a pancake dinner or something. It is a social club.

EDIT: Look. Being in a sorority is fun. I certainly enjoyed it. A lot of people (esp. those who didn't do it) have some VERY VERY negative connotations. I am just trying to warn you about that. I have been out of school for three years and have seen what people say about it. Wrong or right, if you bring up your sorority stuff in your essay, then the whole experience is fair game at an interview. And is that what you really want to talk about? What if you get someone who is totally anti-Greek?
 
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I think that as long as you’re passionate about and put on the right spin it should be fine. Focus on your reaction. It must have been very hard to do. I’m sure that you had a lot of good friends you had to go against. It sounds like it affected you so write about it.

Every Greek chapter and organization is different. I don’t want to turn this into a Greek life debate, so just beaware that a lot of people (mostly those who are non-greek) have preconceived notions about what it is to be Greek or judge way to quickly about what the organization does. Some people out there hate Greeks because they hate greeks.

Good Luck!
 

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i think anywhere you really go, saying that you were in a sorority or fraternity would get people to roll their eyes at you, until you explain it. I know that some fraternities at NYU (my brother goes there), have really excellent business programs, do really genuine great community service work, and the like. But even then, you have to explain to any layman about it, so that they can understand that its not your run of the mill fraternity. Regardless of whichever sorority you were pledging into, it sounds like this sorority is the alternative- something Im not sure I would even mention at the risk of someone rolling their eyes at me, already impinging a predisposed bias on me. I mean if its a situation that you feel VEHEMENT about to include in your essay, by all means, do it. But, applying to medical school is almost like a game. You have to have the right set of strategies, highlighting your strengths, downplaying your weaknesses, and must employ the right players in your application to score a touchdown with adcoms. I dont think associations with sororities, or fraternities, altruisitic or not, will find a well seated place in vying for good favor in an otherwise conservative sector.
 

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jackieMD2007 said:
EDIT: Look. Being in a sorority is fun. I certainly enjoyed it. However, a lot of people (esp. those who didn't do it) have some VERY VERY negative connotations. I am just trying to warn you about that. I have been out of school for three years and have seen what people say about it. Wrong or right, if you bring up your sorority stuff in your essay, then the whole experience is fair game at an interview. And is that what you really want to talk about? What if you get someone who is totally anti-Greek?
There's no reason not to bring up Greek affiliation, it is an organization that you were part of as an undergrad. The appropriate response to the anti-Greek interviewer is: "yeah I was in a frat/sorority. I made connections with other members/alumni and went to parties like any other normal college student. It was a part of my undergraduate experience and complemented my academic and other extracurricular pursuits. I was also able to successfully complete a premedical curriculum and get invited to interviews at X number of medical schools."

At this point the interviewer will move on to more germane topics other than your social life in college.
 

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If you're going to mention a sorority or fraternity, you need to be prepared to talk at length about community service or networking -- at a lot of schools, mine included, fraternities and sororities are organized drinking clubs that sponsor parties. I don't have anything against greek organizations, but you need to be prepared to defend it if you do get someone who has a negative perception of greek life.
 

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braluk said:
I dont think associations with sororities, or fraternities, altruisitic or not, will find a well seated place in vying for good favor in an otherwise conservative sector.
Really? I think that they probably care about more relevant things like: gpa, mcat, medically related experiences, recommendation letters, community service, etc.

Not to mention that Greek organizations have been associated with the "good ole boys" conservative sectors in the past.
 

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sentry said:
fraternities and sororities are organized drinking clubs that sponsor parties.
So the moral is: if you're gonna be a doctor, you better not have had any fun in college.
 

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quantummechanic said:
So the moral is: if you're gonna be a doctor, you better not have had any fun in college.
That's not the point. The point is that it's risky to harp on an activity with many negative connotations. I agree that a lot of greek organizations provide positive experiences, but there are a lot of people who view them negatively. I know it's not fair, but it's just the way it is. Harping on the experience too much, you run the risk of having the very debate we're having in an interview, which draws the attention away from your other motivations and experiences.
 

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ADeadLois said:
That's not the point. The point is that it's risky to harp on an activity with many negative connotations. I agree that a lot of greek organizations provide positive experiences, but there are a lot of people who view them negatively. I know it's not fair, but it's just the way it is. Harping on the experience too much, you run the risk of having the very debate we're having in an interview, which draws the attention away from your other motivations and experiences.
I don't think anyone was talking about "harping" about the issue. the OP was mentioning it as a moral dilemma which she took the high road on. good for her, I dont see why anyone would turn that into a: You're a Greek therefore you're unfit for medicine, especially since you did an ethical thing while in that organization. Let's get real here, med schools like to see good character and the OP's experience shows that. With the amount of time one devotes to a frat/sorority, it should be put on the AMCAS, but unless you did some leadership its not really relevant to spend any large amount of time talking about it.
 
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I actually used my fraternity affiliation for my ethical dilemma questions. I won't go into the details.

But no one ever gave me any flack about having been in a fraternity, and I actually wound up being interviewed by another member of my fraternity at one point.
 

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Depakote said:
I actually used my fraternity affiliation for my ethical dilemma questions. I won't go into the details.

But no one ever gave me any flack about having been in a fraternity, and I actually wound up being interviewed by another member of my fraternity at one point.
I am actually a proud member of my fraternity. It was a fantastic experience in college. And yes, it is largely social. But college is partly about developing social and interpersonal skills as well as academic. Greek life is also about leadership, philanthropy, community service, school leadership, networking, and developing a sense of brotherhood and loyalty to a group larger than one's self.

Now don't get me wrong, there were parts that I did not agree with and there was a great deal of stress and difficulty along the way, even great personal loss in the death of a close friend and frat brother (from a chronic condition, not frat-related accident). But these trials, together with the fun and service, come together to contribute to the diversity of experiences that can make one a well-rounded and unique applicant.
 

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Haemulon said:
I am actually a proud member of my fraternity. It was a fantastic experience in college. And yes, it is largely social. But college is partly about developing social and interpersonal skills as well as academic. Greek life is also about leadership, philanthropy, community service, school leadership, networking, and developing a sense of brotherhood and loyalty to a group larger than one's self.

Now don't get me wrong, there were parts that I did not agree with and there was a great deal of stress and diffulty along the way, even great personal loss in the death of a close friend and frat brother. But these trials, together with the fun and service, come together to contribute the diversity of experiences that can make one a well-rounded and unique applicant.
I completely agree with this. I was just playing the devils' advocate, proposing to the OP that Greek life isn't always seen as being so positive and stories about hazing, etc can be taken all kinds of ways by the reader.
 

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jackieMD2007 said:
I completely agree with this. I was just playing the devils' advocate, proposing to the OP that Greek life isn't always seen as being so positive and stories about hazing, etc can be taken all kinds of ways by the reader.
Thats definitely true too. Heck, even greeks can view other greek organizations negatively. I know there were some dubious groups at my school for sure. But all in all, I prefer to keep with me the positve and not focus on the negative. Maybe its just selective memory :laugh:
 

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Haemulon said:
Thats definitely true too. Heck, even greeks can view other greek organizations negatively. I know there were some dubious groups at my school for sure. But all in all, I prefer to keep with me the positve and not focus on the negative. Maybe its just selective memory :laugh:
I agree, but I am sure that as a fellow older student (a few years out of school, anyway) you have seen people's varied opinions on Greek life out here in "The Real World". :) If the OP is still in college, she may not have that perspective yet, or the kinds of experiences that would make her want to be cautious about using her Greek life as an example.
 

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jackieMD2007 said:
I agree, but I am sure that as a fellow older student (a few years out of school, anyway) you have seen people's varied opinions on Greek life out here in "The Real World". :) If the OP is still in college, she may not have that perspective yet, or the kinds of experiences that would make her want to be cautious about using her Greek life as an example.
I completely agree with Jackie. Right or wrong, lots of folks have very negative impressions of Greek life. You can talk about community service, bonding, and leadership all you want; many people will still think hazing, date rape, and fratboys dropping bing cherries out of their a$$ into people's cocktails.

Also, keep in mind that your adcoms are more than likely not going to be as young as you. Many of them will be in their fifties and sixties, meaning that their exposure to fraternities/sororities was in the sixties and seventies. Greek life was a lot different back then and that's may how they still view it in their head.
 

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notdeadyet said:
I completely agree with Jackie. Right or wrong, lots of folks have very negative impressions of Greek life. You can talk about community service, bonding, and leadership all you want; many people will still think hazing, date rape, and fratboys dropping bing cherries out of their a$$ into people's cocktails.
:laugh:
Sorry. That just cracks me up.

notdeadyet said:
Also, keep in mind that your adcoms are more than likely not going to be as young as you. Many of them will be in their fifties and sixties, meaning that their exposure to fraternities/sororities was in the sixties and seventies. Greek life was a lot different back then and that's may how they still view it in their head.
In all seriousness, your post says what I was trying to get at, just more eloquently. :D
 
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ABSOLUTsher07

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That's exactly my point guys. A lot of people view the Greek community negatively, and hazing is part of that. You don't have to be in a sorority or fraternity to participate in pregame and drinking. I go to Penn State for god's sake.. what do you think most people do here on a Friday night? Study for MCATs?

I am proud to be a part of my sorority, but I wasn't proud of what I had to go through, which is why I reported the hazing. I didn't want future members to be hazed simply because they wanted to be part of something. My essay is below, PLEASE TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK, HONESTLY. Thanks for the help guys!

Notorious throughout the Greek community, "Hell Week" was a process I experienced firsthand as a newly initiated member of my sorority. Justified as a rite of passage experienced by every incoming pledge class in order to solidify the bonds of sisterhood, new members are to endure the days of Hell Week by finding comfort in each other's misery.

Although I wanted to be accepted as a sister and a part of my sorority, I found it increasingly difficult to rationalize my reasons for allowing myself to be a reluctant participant of Hell Week. When hazing occurs, it is all too easy to go along with the actions of others out of fear of appearing weak and opposing the accepted norm. No one wants to be viewed as the tattletale. The thought of reporting my sorority for hazing violations was constantly on my mind, along with questions about the outcome.

At the end of the second day of Hell Week, I anonymously reported my sorority for hazing, and I have never regretted my decision. A desire to belong should never equate with subjection to hazing. Although my chapter was sentenced to probation for the rest of the semester, the looks of relief on my pledge sisters' faces confirmed that I made the right choice. Tradition is a value that is strongly upheld by many organizations, but integrity is a principle that should be valued above all else. I am proud to have played a part in ensuring that future members of my sorority will never have to experience hazing.
 

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I like the last two sentences. I am worried that this essay might put you on thin-ice with some people, though.

What about the pro-Greek people on the AdCom? You're admitting that you were a tattletale! What about the ones who think that you should have just sucked it up and gone with it? THEY suffered through it! Why couldn't you? (All of that crap). You lose there.

What about the anti-Greek people on the AdCom? Some of your reasons in explaining sound like you're justifying things. Also, using this topic brings up some images of Greek life (for better, for worse) in people's minds. You lose there.

Either way I think you're in a lose-lose situation.
You mentioned you had other things to write about. I would go with those. You are obviously a competent writer. :luck:
 

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So are you guys advocating that one's greek affiliation should not be mentioned whatsoever?

Personally, I am proud of my affiliation and our contribution to the campus community. I understand that there are negative connotations, but you also have to think of the nature of these groups. They are long-standing groups that promote leadership and unity, two key ideals promoted in the field of medicine.

Most greek organizations have been around for 100+ years. I'm sure many adcoms were in a greek organization in college. Hell, many well known professionals and politicians are greek (see: several US presidents). The media might be giving greeks a bad name, but I think it is more likely than not that many adcoms were part of one themselves. I'd use it.
 
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jackieMD2007

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No, I put it on my AMCAS just like everyone else. But I didn't write any essays about it, and certainly nothing about hazing. I am just trying to express my concerns to the OP.
 

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What I expect someone to hit you with at some point is an ethical dilema scenario akin to the following:

You find out that the hospital you are working at is violating transplant protocol and giving foreign nationals prioroty over those on the transplant list in exchange for donations to the hospital (this actually happened). If you report this, your hospital will lose accreditation as a transplant center and be unable to serve the local popluation. Do you report this?
 

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Now, for my personal opinion, seeing how it played out.

I wouldn't write about it. Not because it was a greek related event but for the following reasons:

1. You reported it anonymously. This may be understandable, you were not in a position of power, but by seeking to avoid confrontation in this situation, you may come across as one that will not confront problems openly.

2. You still joined the group that was hazing you. You wanted to have your cake and eat it too. It's fine to have moral objections to something, but you have to actually stand against it. They were hazers and you joined them. They only stopped b/c you turned them in.

Sorry. Changing my stance.
 

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Depakote said:
What I expect someone to hit you with at some point is an ethical dilema scenario akin to the following:

You find out that the hospital you are working at is violating transplant protocol and giving foreign nationals prioroty over those on the transplant list in exchange for donations to the hospital (this actually happened). If you report this, your hospital will lose accreditation as a transplant center and be unable to serve the local popluation. Do you report this?
What about in Grey's Anatomy when Izzy crashed a patient to bump him up the transplant list? I was kinda aggrevated by the fact that she was atually going to get away with it because none of the interns would come forward. (until she decided to quit). The coverup is wht always gets you in trouble. Just look what happened to Nixon (I'm not a crook!!!).
 

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Depakote said:
Now, for my personal opinion, seeing how it played out.

I wouldn't write about it. Not because it was a greek related event but for the following reasons:

1. You reported it anonymously. This may be understandable, you were not in a position of power, but by seeking to avoid confrontation in this situation, you may come across as one that will not confront problems openly.

2. You still joined the group that was hazing you. You wanted to have your cake and eat it too. It's fine to have moral objections to something, but you have to actually stand against it. They were hazers and you joined them. They only stopped b/c you turned them in.

Sorry. Changing my stance.
good point there.
 

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it's funny how anti-hazing people still join the greek life expecting no hazing whatsoever. whether frats/sororities admit it or not, a clear majority have some type of hazing in their pledge process. if you're adamantly against hazing, you should simply avoid the greek life in the first place. i think the idea of starting pledgeship and then reporting the hazing would rub a lot of people the wrong way. also, i know this sounds bad but if you're thinking about joining a frat/sorority, you should just prepare to be hazed at some point and if you don't get any, well then you're part of the lucky minority.
 
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well excuse me if I was extremely naive in believing all the numerous anti-hazing presentations given during rush, and how all the people swear they don't haze before deciding I wanted to join... I found out they did, so I reported it. end of story.
Now I have no idea what to write about... I feel like no matter what it is, the adcom could find a way to put a negative spin on it. The safest thing to write about would be the generic "I helped a friend who was suicidal/bulimic/depressed/in danger of hurting themself." So generic! Sadly, having a friend who's hurting themselves is not that uncommon these days.
Another idea: my friend asked me to cover for her when she spent the night over at her boyfriend's by saying she was sleeping over at my house. I did it. Now the adcom could say, well would you lie about a patient's condition in order to get them higher on the transplant list? It's lose-lose no matter what!
 

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well ummm, there's no point in writing an essay about moral ambiguity if there's a clear cut answer...

...just sayin'
 

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maestro1625 said:
well ummm, there's no point in writing an essay about moral ambiguity if there's a clear cut answer...

...just sayin'
Exactly. It's not a dilemma if there's one answer. The adcom knows this. They want to see your thought process and the principles you use to get through it. By assigning this essay, they know they're gonna get controversial topics... that's what they want.

All you can contol is the extent of the controversy and the angles from which the adcom can attack your essay. There are inherent biases in human thinking... no matter what the intentions of the adcom are, those biases are gonna creep in. Greek life triggers a lot of these biases. If you choose to write this essay, focus more on your process: why do you think hazing is wrong? which convictions do you have that you think are important enough to put this group in trouble? But then, be prepared to answer: if your convictions are so great, why report anonymously? if your convictions are so great, why did you remain a part of the group?

In this particular situation, I think there are more angles that can hurt you than help. I'd look for a dilemma that tips that scale in your favor.

:luck:
 

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ABSOLUTsher07 said:
well excuse me if I was extremely naive in believing all the numerous anti-hazing presentations given during rush, and how all the people swear they don't haze before deciding I wanted to join... I found out they did, so I reported it. end of story.
Now I have no idea what to write about... I feel like no matter what it is, the adcom could find a way to put a negative spin on it. The safest thing to write about would be the generic "I helped a friend who was suicidal/bulimic/depressed/in danger of hurting themself." So generic! Sadly, having a friend who's hurting themselves is not that uncommon these days.
Another idea: my friend asked me to cover for her when she spent the night over at her boyfriend's by saying she was sleeping over at my house. I did it. Now the adcom could say, well would you lie about a patient's condition in order to get them higher on the transplant list? It's lose-lose no matter what!
i never heard of a sorority hazing, that is hilarious. what did they do, not let you shower, wear make-up etc... That is the only type of hazing that I have read about for sororities. The sororities at my school give their pledges prob 500 dollars worth of presents and stuff like that. They dont have to do anything. i am curious, please tell.
 

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It's not just Greeks that do the hazing. hell, the HONORS dorm at my ugrad hazed!!

But I agree with what maestro said, it doesn't sound like it was really a gray area. Negative connotations about sororities aside, that's the main reason why I don't think that's such a good essay topic.
 

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Depakote said:
What I expect someone to hit you with at some point is an ethical dilema scenario akin to the following:

You find out that the hospital you are working at is violating transplant protocol and giving foreign nationals prioroty over those on the transplant list in exchange for donations to the hospital (this actually happened). If you report this, your hospital will lose accreditation as a transplant center and be unable to serve the local popluation. Do you report this?
What happened in real life?
 
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