Opinions on "P=MD"

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I don't think you realize just how much harder Step 1 is than the MCAT. In comparison, the MCAT is a complete and total joke of a test. Step 1 is a beast that destroys everything in its path. Step 1 doesn't test minutia, school exams do. Step 1 will test basic knowledge of medical sciences and then start pushing out how many steps down the road you can take a question. If you approach Step 1 like the MCAT you will be severely disappointed in how you score.

I'm working as an instructor for EK and am currently prepping for class. It is a total joke - in retrospect, I honestly can't believe I didn't get a 45. Verbal is still difficult, but content-heavy sections are a cake walk after enduring med school. The two really aren't comparable in any sense beyond being standardized tests. Frankly I don't even understand why the MCAT is used in medical admissions at all. I'm not convinced there's any real value in the test now that I'm nearing the completion of the pre-clinical curriculum.

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So that the people that haven't done boards prep have an idea of what I'm talking about in this thread, here's a sample boards question:

A 28-year-old woman comes to the physician because of fever, chills, sweating, and body aches. She states that she recently returned from a trip to Malaysia and that the symptoms have occurred every other day, despite acetaminophen and over-the-counter flu medications. Treatment with chloroquine is begun. Which of the following immune cell types is most likely to clear the causal organism in the erythrocytic stage?

A) Neutrophil
B) NK cells
C) Tc cells
D) TH1
E) TH2

To get to the correct answer, you have to:

1) realize the woman has malaria ("every other day" symptoms, general clinical picture, treatment with chloroquine, came from an endemic area)

2) know the basics of the malarial life cycle, namely that Plasmodium infects and reproduces largely within RBCs

3) remember that RBCs don't express MHC I, which is necessary for immune responses from Tc cells

4) remember that NK cells can become activated without stimulation from MHC I (which is the correct answer)

As you can see, the question itself is not difficult. There is zero thinking involved. However, if you don't remember facts 1-4, there is no way that you can deduce the answer. Sure, you can probably get it down to neutrophils, NK cells, and Tc cells based on general principles, but distinguishing between NK and Tc cells requires recall of very specific facts (or a lucky guess).

I should also add that this is a simple example. Questions involving micro/pharm are more ludicrous. It's also possible that you studied the basics of immunology months before after you studied micro and/or pharm. So the difficulty is recalling these disparate and somewhat random facts that you were exposed to at some point over the course of two years. This is why performance in class is somewhat irrelevant. It all comes down to your ability to assimilate and understand as much content as possible during your boards prep. Doing well in class MIGHT help, but doing poorly in class doesn't mean you're screwed. Notice also how you could memorize a complete book of facts and yet your inability to recall these small things will cause you to get the question wrong.

This is why step 1 is difficult and why it really isn't comparable to the MCAT.
 
So that the people that haven't done boards prep have an idea of what I'm talking about in this thread, here's a sample boards question:

A 28-year-old woman comes to the physician because of fever, chills, sweating, and body aches. She states that she recently returned from a trip to Malaysia and that the symptoms have occurred every other day, despite acetaminophen and over-the-counter flu medications. Treatment with chloroquine is begun. Which of the following immune cell types is most likely to clear the causal organism in the erythrocytic stage?

A) Neutrophil
B) NK cells
C) Tc cells
D) TH1
E) TH2

To get to the correct answer, you have to:

1) realize the woman has malaria ("every other day" symptoms, general clinical picture, treatment with chloroquine, came from an endemic area)

2) know the basics of the malarial life cycle, namely that Plasmodium infects and reproduces largely within RBCs

3) remember that RBCs don't express MHC I, which is necessary for immune responses from Tc cells

4) remember that NK cells can become activated without stimulation from MHC I (which is the correct answer)

As you can see, the question itself is not difficult. There is zero thinking involved. However, if you don't remember facts 1-4, there is no way that you can deduce the answer. Sure, you can probably get it down to neutrophils, NK cells, and Tc cells based on general principles, but distinguishing between NK and Tc cells requires recall of very specific facts (or a lucky guess).

I should also add that this is a simple example. Questions involving micro/pharm are more ludicrous. It's also possible that you studied the basics of immunology months before after you studied micro and/or pharm. So the difficulty is recalling these disparate and somewhat random facts that you were exposed to at some point over the course of two years. This is why performance in class is somewhat irrelevant. It all comes down to your ability to assimilate and understand as much content as possible during your boards prep. Doing well in class MIGHT help, but doing poorly in class doesn't mean you're screwed. Notice also how you could memorize a complete book of facts and yet your inability to recall these small things will cause you to get the question wrong.

This is why step 1 is difficult and why it really isn't comparable to the MCAT.

Well, don't med school exams mirror step 1? Their preparation for two years solidifies it
 
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I'm working as an instructor for EK and am currently prepping for class. It is a total joke - in retrospect, I honestly can't believe I didn't get a 45. Verbal is still difficult, but content-heavy sections are a cake walk after enduring med school. The two really aren't comparable in any sense beyond being standardized tests. Frankly I don't even understand why the MCAT is used in medical admissions at all. I'm not convinced there's any real value in the test now that I'm nearing the completion of the pre-clinical curriculum.

Well, the mcat serves to test our premed knowledge, while step 1 tests preclinical knowledge. Clearly step 1 is much harder since more apt people are taking it
 
I always considered the MCAT to be more of a proving ground than a test of medically related knowledge. More of a standardized measure than GPA
 
I meant regarding content base. School exams solidify it, and step 1 prep reinforces it

Right - no, they don't, at least not in all cases. There's actually a not insignificant amount of material that is covered in Pathoma, FA, etc. that we have never covered. For example, we aren't doing male genital pathology AT ALL (???). You are also likely taught a whole BUNCH of material that is either totally irrelevant or perhaps useful in the clinical arena to some degree but not for the purposes of the boards.
 
There's where it all goes wrong - they really don't in many cases.

Can you give an example of a med school exam question somewhat related to this Step I question so we can see how far off the school exams might be?
 
Can you give an example of a med school exam question somewhat related to this Step I question so we can see how far off the school exams might be?

Eh, I don't think it's really all that helpful because as I said before every school - even every class - will be different.

As an example, though, our pharm final had an inordinate amount of questions on the CYP enzyme system and how various drugs were metabolized. This is material that was mentioned in passing in class, is not mentioned ANYWHERE in boards prep material (outside of the CYP450 system), and for all intents and purposes has no practical value in the daily practice of medicine. Yet, 10-15% of our exam was dedicated to questions on that.

We had multiple people fail that exam. I studied my ass off and barely passed. That's probably the best example I have of the huge Grand Canyon-sized disconnect between class material and boards material. Don't get me wrong, this is a particularly egregious example and by no means the norm, but there is some degree of that in every single course. The question is how much of it there is.
 
Hmm...I wonder if this problem may be alleviated if pre-clinicals are mostly taught by MD/PhDs (rather than PhDs) since the MD/PhDs would have more direct knowledge of and interest in what is clinically relevant and how the basic sciences actually connect to medicine?
 
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I don't think you realize just how much harder Step 1 is than the MCAT. In comparison, the MCAT is a complete and total joke of a test. Step 1 is a beast that destroys everything in its path. Step 1 doesn't test minutia, school exams do. Step 1 will test basic knowledge of medical sciences and then start pushing out how many steps down the road you can take a question. If you approach Step 1 like the MCAT you will be severely disappointed in how you score.

I don't, and there's no way I can until I take it. I have a decent idea of what's necessary though.

I don't think you read my post very carefully though. I said I'm going to over study (do better than just barely passing) during M1 and do school and board prep during M2, then all high yield board stuff during dedicated time. The only connection I made with the mcat was in regard to low yield, which meant M1 minutiae. I'd rather spend time learning some extra stuff than going out and drinking a few nights a week. It's not like I'm wasting board prep time, unless you're about to tell me to do board specific stuff during M1 (lol).

I don't see a problem with any of that. Do you?

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I don't, and there's no way I can until I take it. I have a decent idea of what's necessary though.

I don't think you read my post very carefully though. I said I'm going to over study (do better than just barely passing) during M1 and do school and board prep during M2, then all high yield board stuff during dedicated time. The only connection I made with the mcat was in regard to low yield, which meant M1 minutiae. I'd rather spend time learning some extra stuff than going out and drinking a few nights a week. It's not like I'm wasting board prep time, unless you're about to tell me to do board specific stuff during M1 (lol).

I don't see a problem with any of that. Do you?

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Do what makes you happy (including studying more if that's what does it for you). I say what I say more to give a perspective of "studying 12 hours a day every day and acing exams is not necessarily to do well." However there are definitely people that like studying over other things. If that's you, then whether that time will actually get you anything tangible is irrelevant.
 
So that the people that haven't done boards prep have an idea of what I'm talking about in this thread, here's a sample boards question:

A 28-year-old woman comes to the physician because of fever, chills, sweating, and body aches. She states that she recently returned from a trip to Malaysia and that the symptoms have occurred every other day, despite acetaminophen and over-the-counter flu medications. Treatment with chloroquine is begun. Which of the following immune cell types is most likely to clear the causal organism in the erythrocytic stage?

A) Neutrophil
B) NK cells
C) Tc cells
D) TH1
E) TH2

To get to the correct answer, you have to:

1) realize the woman has malaria ("every other day" symptoms, general clinical picture, treatment with chloroquine, came from an endemic area)

2) know the basics of the malarial life cycle, namely that Plasmodium infects and reproduces largely within RBCs

3) remember that RBCs don't express MHC I, which is necessary for immune responses from Tc cells

4) remember that NK cells can become activated without stimulation from MHC I (which is the correct answer)

As you can see, the question itself is not difficult. There is zero thinking involved. However, if you don't remember facts 1-4, there is no way that you can deduce the answer. Sure, you can probably get it down to neutrophils, NK cells, and Tc cells based on general principles, but distinguishing between NK and Tc cells requires recall of very specific facts (or a lucky guess).

I should also add that this is a simple example. Questions involving micro/pharm are more ludicrous. It's also possible that you studied the basics of immunology months before after you studied micro and/or pharm. So the difficulty is recalling these disparate and somewhat random facts that you were exposed to at some point over the course of two years. This is why performance in class is somewhat irrelevant. It all comes down to your ability to assimilate and understand as much content as possible during your boards prep. Doing well in class MIGHT help, but doing poorly in class doesn't mean you're screwed. Notice also how you could memorize a complete book of facts and yet your inability to recall these small things will cause you to get the question wrong.

This is why step 1 is difficult and why it really isn't comparable to the MCAT.

I can answer this just by remembering the connection between NK cells and malaria that I learned in undergrad A&P and that's exactly my point. I learned some tiny detail in a class and got lucky that it stuck with me and came up as a board question. I didn't have to take the steps you outlined because I knew the (low yield) correlation. I didn't remember the reason(s) why NK is the answer, but I could skip all the reasons why and just pick the answer because I overstudied in a class I took last summer.

Yea its unlikely to actually happen again, but if I have to study minutiae to improve my class rank anyway (and chances at AOA) then why wouldn't I do it?

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Sounds like the MCAT requires more in-depth knowledge, while Step 1 requires a larger breadth of knowledge (at least based on your post).

I don't even think the MCAT requires indepth knowledge. I remember I had a question which required integrating the equation of centripetal force and angular acceleration to predict a relationship. I was surprised they wanted this much, but that was the most detail I used. Everything else could be categorized as (with a mix between all 3):

1) common-sense
2) deductive logic
3) understanding certain scientific principles and applying them to new situations e.g. a gene may express different proteins due to splicing, post-translational modification, predicting outcomes based on factors influencing reaction rates, etc.
4) Big-picture thinking

For the MCAT, logic is far more important than knowledge. I can walk into the current MCAT today and score a 28-30 with a VR of 8-10 (I suck at verbal). The opposite appears to be true for medical school.

I won't know how much critical thought is required for Step I until next year. The only part of medical school which has required more thought from me so far has been identifying lesions in medical neuroscience. I have enjoyed this (much more than anatomy). The thought process is easier than MCAT reasoning once you memorize the rules of the game--this nerve/tract is in the pons, medulla, it runs here, contralateral, bilateral, decussates here etc. Still not an easy course though--it's a lot of crap to memorize especially because our systems curriculum is integrated it anatomy, so we happily spend six months doing anatomy. Either way, I'm happy I never have to identify chorda tympani on a lab practical again.
 
Yea its unlikely to actually happen again, but if I have to study minutiae to improve my class rank anyway (and chances at AOA) then why wouldn't I do it?

A little something called life. If overstudying makes you happy, then more power to you. But I personally would rather spend the extra time maintaing proper mental health, working out, spending time with friends, catching up on TV shows, etc. I know I'd hate med school and being a physician if I overworked myself for four years, only to be overworked even more during residency. And that's not what I want.
 
I can answer this just by remembering the connection between NK cells and malaria that I learned in undergrad A&P and that's exactly my point. I learned some tiny detail in a class and got lucky that it stuck with me and came up as a board question. I didn't have to take the steps you outlined because I knew the (low yield) correlation. I didn't remember the reason(s) why NK is the answer, but I could skip all the reasons why and just pick the answer because I overstudied in a class I took last summer.

Yea its unlikely to actually happen again, but if I have to study minutiae to improve my class rank anyway (and chances at AOA) then why wouldn't I do it?

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In that case you are lucky (which is part of the game), however most questions require more discrimination than that, i.e., you are unlikely to have many questions on which you "get lucky." The kind of question that I posted is on the simpler/easier end of the spectrum.

It's obvious that you have your own opinion and are set in it, and that's fine. Do what works for you. I'm just trying to offer you an alternate perspective so that you might perhaps use that saved time to do things that are more meaningful, enriching, and worthwhile than memorizing random facts that some guy thought were important to know because they are tangentially related to research that he does. If you think that will help you in the future, then you should go for it. That's what's great about medical school: there are many different ways for people to arrive at the exact same spot. It all comes down to your priorities and what you want out of the experience.
 
I'm a pediatrician -- the top peds residencies are not as competitive as the other "competitive" fields (surgery, derm, etc) but you still need a STRONG academic performance in med school to match.

Basically if you are happy with a noncompetitive primary care field AND you dont want a top notch academic residency program, then yes I would agree that "P = MD"

N=1. My friend matched into Peds at JHU and is staying there for cards fellowship. She told me she wasn't tops in her class and her Step was average. She had good research.
 
N=1. My friend matched into Peds at JHU and is staying there for cards fellowship. She told me she wasn't tops in her class and her Step was average. She had good research.

How was it average? Was it around the national average? Average for her class at med school? Average for the applicants applying to JHU?
 
When you look at charting outcomes you find 230's matching into neuro, ortho, etc. it's not true that failure to score 240+ categorically eliminates one from the more competitive places, although one's odds start to dribble down-hill.
 
I meant regarding content base. School exams solidify it, and step 1 prep reinforces it

Med schools don't really test Step 1 material as such. Most med school exams focus on more 1-step or 2-step questions, mostly because oftentimes there's no true "cumulative final exam" so it is difficult to make associations with other classes, and professors who teach one subject are often different from the ones that teach another- for example, if you studied pharm with Dr. G, and path with Drs. X, Y and Z, they each write questions that are relevant to their particular field- not necessarily each other. So for me at least it was rare that I'd have a question that required me to first diagnose a disease, then think of what the second-line medication was, then know what the most common dermatologic side effect of that med was in children (that would be a typical Step 1 question).
In a way it makes sense. "Teaching to the Boards" is sort of a dirty phrase that's reserved for caribbean schools. We're supposed to be taught the medicine. However, in my experience at least it's rarely that simple. We spend months and months on anatomy which is extremely under-emphasized on the boards, but again re-emphasized during your surgical clerkship. On the other hand, we spent way less time on microbiology and biochem, which show up way more on Step 1, but way less on the wards. Unfortunately the truth is you really need both, and most physicians would argue that it's more important for us to know anatomy well rather than the urea cycle defects...so what can a med school do? The problem here as far as I'm concerned is the NBME testing stuff we really don't need, not the med schools teaching the wrong things. But this is not a perfect world...


Hmm...I wonder if this problem may be alleviated if pre-clinicals are mostly taught by MD/PhDs (rather than PhDs) since the MD/PhDs would have more direct knowledge of and interest in what is clinically relevant and how the basic sciences actually connect to medicine?

Again, it's sort of irrelevant. The question is- would you rather be taught more of what's important on the wards, or what's heavily tested on Step 1? The two things are often divergent. Honestly I've had to teach a few things to underclassmen, and they're usually shortcuts and easy things to remember on the wards. That's what seems most relevant to me. I couldn't and wouldn't teach Step 1 material because first of all I remember none of it, and second as far as I'm concerned most of it was a waste of time.

In that case you are lucky (which is part of the game), however most questions require more discrimination than that, i.e., you are unlikely to have many questions on which you "get lucky." The kind of question that I posted is on the simpler/easier end of the spectrum.

It's obvious that you have your own opinion and are set in it, and that's fine. Do what works for you. I'm just trying to offer you an alternate perspective so that you might perhaps use that saved time to do things that are more meaningful, enriching, and worthwhile than memorizing random facts that some guy that were important to know because they are tangentially related to research that he does. If you think that will help you in the future, then you should go for it. That's what's great about medical school: there are many different ways for people to arrive at the exact same spot. It all comes down to your priorities and what you want out of the experience.

Agreed.
Look, some people have started studying for Step 1 the day they arrived in med school, and hated having school tests because they felt like they had to study stuff that didn't matter. Others didn't open First Aid until all med school exams were over. Some used P = MD as a reason to slack, hang out with friends, and have a life. Others took it to mean that they had more time to do more important things academically, like worry about the boards early, get more involved with research, network, etc. Different strokes for different folks really. We had a H/P/F preclinical curriculum and in my experience, most who got Honors didn't really gun for it, they just got it cause they were going to work that hard anyway and were getting extremely high scores even when the class was P/F. For us, preclinical Honors are used to determine who'll get "Junior AOA", and that can matter if you want a super competitive specialty to some extent. Still, doing well on Step 1 and very well on your clerkships is far, far more important than getting Honors in whatever preclinical class. My advice is- don't fall behind, study hard, and don't worry too much about grades in your first two years. If you're the type who studies 4 hours and gets H at the end, great. If you're the type that would need to study 8 to get the same result, then don't sweat it.

Oh and PS- to keep the "P = MD" attitude during your clinical years IS crazy. Don't do that.
 
Do what makes you happy (including studying more if that's what does it for you). I say what I say more to give a perspective of "studying 12 hours a day every day and acing exams is not necessarily to do well." However there are definitely people that like studying over other things. If that's you, then whether that time will actually get you anything tangible is irrelevant.

Yea I guess this conversation would be more clear if we could give actual amount of time spent on studying and life. I don't plan to sudy 12 hours per day at any point during school. However, I don't plan on studying only 2-3 hours per day like alot of SDNers say they do. I'm planning on being productive for around 6 hours everyday, which in experience (IRL and on SDN) is more than the average person just looking to pass.


4 hours in class, 6 hours studying, 1.5 hours in the gym, 8 hours of sleep. That leaves me with with 4.5 hours per day of whatever else I want to do. More when I learn how to do well without going to class. Less on days with doctoring classes, but that's more than enough for me.




A little something called life. If overstudying makes you happy, then more power to you. But I personally would rather spend the extra time maintaing proper mental health, working out, spending time with friends, catching up on TV shows, etc. I know I'd hate med school and being a physician if I overworked myself for four years, only to be overworked even more during residency. And that's not what I want.

Yea see above.






In that case you are lucky (which is part of the game), however most questions require more discrimination than that, i.e., you are unlikely to have many questions on which you "get lucky." The kind of question that I posted is on the simpler/easier end of the spectrum.

It's obvious that you have your own opinion and are set in it, and that's fine. Do what works for you. I'm just trying to offer you an alternate perspective so that you might perhaps use that saved time to do things that are more meaningful, enriching, and worthwhile than memorizing random facts that some guy thought were important to know because they are tangentially related to research that he does. If you think that will help you in the future, then you should go for it. That's what's great about medical school: there are many different ways for people to arrive at the exact same spot. It all comes down to your priorities and what you want out of the experience.


Yea I understand that I will likely get few, if any, questions like that.


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4 hours in class, 6 hours studying, 1.5 hours in the gym, 8 hours of sleep. That leaves me with with 4.5 hours per day of whatever else I want to do. More when I learn how to do well without going to class. Less on days with doctoring classes, but that's more than enough for me.

Rare is the day when you only have 4 hours of class. Lectures, sure, but there's also standardized patients, labs, PBL, meetings, etc etc.
 
Rare is the day when you only have 4 hours of class. Lectures, sure, but there's also standardized patients, labs, PBL, meetings, etc etc.

Yea I didn't account for labs. Besides anatomy and histology what labs are there?

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They want to take it easy like the regular undergrad engineers. P=Engineer :D
 
The med school on my UG campus is P/F. It has been suggested that the policy is to make the class more collaborative. They also publish who is in the top 10% and top 20% (theory being to reward those who deserve it).

It backfired in my opinion. It actually creates more competition. The students here are uptight, seem unhappy, and are nowhere near as collaborative as students at a standard grading school I'm equally familiar with. Probably 60% of the class is gunning for top 20%. It's a big reason I declined an interview here to attend a school with ABCF grading. At least with ABCF that person in the 79th percentile gets something for their troubles. To me that is the issue. Just rewards. If I have a class of 100 and I am 21st in the class I want to be acknowledged as 21/100 not "P". If I am 91/100 that is my own fault and I can deal.

Outright pass/fail, no honors no nothing, makes some sense for preclinical, but honestly I'll take ABCF any day. If I am a C student then so be it, my problem and my prerogative to either fix it or accept it.
 
The med school on my UG campus is P/F. It has been suggested that the policy is to make the class more collaborative. They also publish who is in the top 10% and top 20% (theory being to reward those who deserve it).

It backfired in my opinion. It actually creates more competition. The students here are uptight, seem unhappy, and are nowhere near as collaborative as students at a standard grading school I'm equally familiar with. Probably 60% of the class is gunning for top 20%. It's a big reason I declined an interview here to attend a school with ABCF grading. At least with ABCF that person in the 79th percentile gets something for their troubles. To me that is the issue. Just rewards. If I have a class of 100 and I am 21st in the class I want to be acknowledged as 21/100 not "P". If I am 91/100 that is my own fault and I can deal.

Outright pass/fail, no honors no nothing, makes some sense for preclinical, but honestly I'll take ABCF any day. If I am a C student then so be it, my problem and my prerogative to either fix it or accept it.

Most schools have an internal ranking even if they are ostensibly P/F. Only a small handful of schools are truly rank-free.
 
Most schools have an internal ranking even if they are ostensibly P/F. Only a small handful of schools are truly rank-free.

This one does too. They keep a full ranking that can be released to apply to residencies. They just don't tell the students anything but "top 10%" or "top 20%". I personally think it is a silly policy and one that is doing more harm than good.
 
The med school on my UG campus is P/F. It has been suggested that the policy is to make the class more collaborative. They also publish who is in the top 10% and top 20% (theory being to reward those who deserve it).

It backfired in my opinion. It actually creates more competition. The students here are uptight, seem unhappy, and are nowhere near as collaborative as students at a standard grading school I'm equally familiar with. Probably 60% of the class is gunning for top 20%. It's a big reason I declined an interview here to attend a school with ABCF grading. At least with ABCF that person in the 79th percentile gets something for their troubles. To me that is the issue. Just rewards. If I have a class of 100 and I am 21st in the class I want to be acknowledged as 21/100 not "P". If I am 91/100 that is my own fault and I can deal.

Outright pass/fail, no honors no nothing, makes some sense for preclinical, but honestly I'll take ABCF any day. If I am a C student then so be it, my problem and my prerogative to either fix it or accept it.

That sounds depressing :(
The 40% who fails completely at that goal hopefully would understand that they are still strong students who can get into specialties they want to. It's not like you need to be in the top 20% to be a doctor.

Working together >>> working to beat others.
 
Yea I didn't account for labs. Besides anatomy and histology what labs are there?

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Neuroanatomy/neuroscience, physical exam skills. In any given week, we'll have 4 hours of lecture a day + 2-4 hours of additional crap 2-3 times a week.
 
That sounds depressing :(
The 40% who fails completely at that goal hopefully would understand that they are still strong students who can get into specialties they want to. It's not like you need to be in the top 20% to be a doctor.

Working together >>> working to beat others.

Maybe 60% is an exaggeration to some extent but the point stands. The issue is that all of these people want to succeed, and all of them can legitimately try (smart enough, work hard enough etc. these are med students we're talking about), but not all of them will make it. So they will see "P". Why not just let people know where they are?

I can see the point of making policies being to promote a good class environment but there are other things that can be done to achieve that, specifically at this school.
 
Maybe 60% is an exaggeration to some extent but the point stands. The issue is that all of these people want to succeed, and all of them can legitimately try (smart enough, work hard enough etc. these are med students we're talking about), but not all of them will make it. So they will see "P". Why not just let people know where they are?

I can see the point of making policies being to promote a good class environment but there are other things that can be done to achieve that, specifically at this school.

I think that is actually the rationale behind unranked, true P/F pre-clinical grading. What's the point in assigning grades when, really, the difference between students is not necessarily innate intelligence but, instead, how much time you spent studying the material? Given that clinical grades are universally ABCF and are infinitely more important than pre-clinical grades, who cares if you're in the bottom 10% of your class in MS1/2 if you get all honors in MS3? For the purposes of residency your performance on the wards - not in college part 2 - is ultimately what is most important. By the same token, who cares how you did in class if you pull a 260+ for step 1. Step 1 demonstrates proficiency in the basic science material while the wards demonstrate proficiency in the more subjective aspects of medical performance plus the ability to use that basic science material in a clinical context. Pre-clinical grades seem entirely unnecessary and superfluous IMO.

(sent from my phone)
 
P = MD is true on a very basic level. The last person in your class (rank wise) will still become a Dr and practice medicine somewhere. Now this is where the basic level breaks down.

If you want a competitive specialty; then P = MD is probably not going to suit you very well if you do the bare minimum. The easiest correlation is that if you do well in your classes, know the material, you will probably do well on Step 1 and 2. Thus opening the doors to competitive specialties. We had 400 applications for 3 spots to put it in perspective.
 
I think that is actually the rationale behind unranked, true P/F pre-clinical grading. What's the point in assigning grades when, really, the difference between students is not necessarily innate intelligence but, instead, how much time you spent studying the material? Given that clinical grades are universally ABCF and are infinitely more important than pre-clinical grades, who cares if you're in the bottom 10% of your class in MS1/2 if you get all honors in MS3? For the purposes of residency your performance on the wards - not in college part 2 - is ultimately what is most important. By the same token, who cares how you did in class if you pull a 260+ for step 1. Step 1 demonstrates proficiency in the basic science material while the wards demonstrate proficiency in the more subjective aspects of medical performance plus the ability to use that basic science material in a clinical context. Pre-clinical grades seem entirely unnecessary and superfluous IMO.

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I think that's bad advice. We have an abundance of top 5% with high boards; so why would I choose someone with bottom 10% and high boards. To me, that's just being lazy in preclinical years. Now by the same token, I've met great individuals and hard workers with high boards and and low class rank; however, don't gimp yourself. Try to do the best in all parts of medical school.
 
I agree, doing your best is key. However, doing your best could lead to being below average in your school. That's my thing about rankings...just because someone is average doesn't mean they suck. It's just that the people on the tip top were beasts, and everyone else was hard workers.
 
I think that's bad advice. We have an abundance of top 5% with high boards; so why would I choose someone with bottom 10% and high boards. To me, that's just being lazy in preclinical years. Now by the same token, I've met great individuals and hard workers with high boards and and low class rank; however, don't gimp yourself. Try to do the best in all parts of medical school.

It's not really "advice," more a discussion on the stupidity of medical education. Who cares if it's lazy, though? It's proving yourself for the sake of proving yourself. It's an absolutely backward system that is based less on producing a system that measures competence and proficiency and more based on how hard your work and how you distinguish yourself from your peers - regardless of whether or not those differences are actually meaningful. Maybe it's just me, but I would consider a medical student that works 2 hours/day and has the same clinical marks and step 1 score as a student that studies 10 hours/day equivalent. I don't think you get credit for wasting time learning material that is ultimately irrelevant if your performance on the things that count are equivalent.

Put another way: if everyone demonstrates competence and excellence, who cares if they're at the bottom of the class or the top other than that for some reason it is "better" to choose a person at the top? It's illogical and ridiculous. That obviously doesn't change how things work in the "real world," where it matters to some extent, but let's stop kidding ourselves and recognize that this is more about stroking egos and less about identifying who will be a competent physician or who has demonstrated mastery of the medical school curriculum.
 
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I think that's bad advice. We have an abundance of top 5% with high boards; so why would I choose someone with bottom 10% and high boards. To me, that's just being lazy in preclinical years. Now by the same token, I've met great individuals and hard workers with high boards and and low class rank; however, don't gimp yourself. Try to do the best in all parts of medical school.

It sounds like you are at a competitive residency or in a competitive specialty, which means that you'll have an overabundance no matter how high you set the bar. Of course, this entire thread doesn't apply those who want to go into neurodermasurgery. Those people know what they are in for in any case. However, for the rest of the 99%, pre-clinical grades aren't a point of emphasis for the residency application.
 
It sounds like you are at a competitive residency or in a competitive specialty, which means that you'll have an overabundance no matter how high you set the bar. Of course, this entire thread doesn't apply those who want to go into neurodermasurgery. Those people know what they are in for in any case. However, for the rest of the 99%, pre-clinical grades aren't a point of emphasis for the residency application.

Yeah, exactly - if you're interested in neurodermasurgery then you're going to be busting your ass regardless.
 
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It's not really "advice," more a discussion on the stupidity of medical education. Who cares if it's lazy, though? It's proving yourself for the sake of proving yourself. It's an absolutely backward system that is based less on producing a system that measures competence and proficiency and more based on how hard your work and how you distinguish yourself from your peers - regardless of whether or not those differences are actually meaningful. Maybe it's just me, but I would consider a medical student that works 2 hours/day and has the same clinical marks and step 1 score as a student that studies 10 hours/day equivalent. I don't think you get credit for wasting time learning material that is ultimately irrelevant if your performance on the things that count are equivalent.

Put another way: if everyone demonstrates competence and excellence, who cares if they're at the bottom of the class or the top other than that for some reason it is "better" to choose a person at the top? It's illogical and ridiculous. That obviously doesn't change how things work in the "real world," where it matters to some extent, but let's stop kidding ourselves and recognize that this is more about stroking egos and less about identifying who will be a competent physician or who has demonstrated mastery of the medical school curriculum.

I should add that these comments are only in the context of comparing individuals that are otherwise pretty equivalent. Obviously if your board scores, MS3 grades, etc. are subpar AND you didn't do well in the pre-clinical years, then you don't have a leg to stand on.
 
Neuroanatomy/neuroscience, physical exam skills. In any given week, we'll have 4 hours of lecture a day + 2-4 hours of additional crap 2-3 times a week.

Well I had accounted for less free time on days with doctoring classes (including clinical skills classes). I didn't know neuroanatomy (which my phone just autocorrected to "negro anatomy" ) was separate from gross anatomy.

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It sounds like you are at a competitive residency or in a competitive specialty, which means that you'll have an overabundance no matter how high you set the bar. Of course, this entire thread doesn't apply those who want to go into neurodermasurgery. Those people know what they are in for in any case. However, for the rest of the 99%, pre-clinical grades aren't a point of emphasis for the residency application.

A dermatologist I saw about a year ago told me that while he was at Vanderbilt, he just focused on passing classes during the pre-clinical years. I know it's only n=1, but just some food for thought.
 
A dermatologist I saw about a year ago told me that while he was at Vanderbilt, he just focused on passing classes during the pre-clinical years. I know it's only n=1, but just some food for thought.

Was dermatology as competitive when he was a med student?

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Was dermatology as competitive when he was a med student?

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Not sure, he's pretty young though (early 30's I would guess), so I imagine it wasn't that much different when he applied for residency.

The specific quote I recall him telling me was, "No one cares if you get a B+ or an A in med school. They just want to make sure you learn the material."
 
Not sure, he's pretty young though (early 30's I would guess), so I imagine it wasn't that much different when he applied for residency.

The specific quote I recall him telling me was, "No one cares if you get a B+ or an A in med school. They just want to make sure you learn the material."

I'm not surprised he said that. Look guys, passing a class in med school isn't like passing a class in undergrad. Often times the people who fail aren't the ones who spent the whole time slacking off. At least at my school, getting a P requires a lot of effort. This is all nice in theory, "working hard to get honors" vs not, but for most people the P is hard enough without adding on the extra pressure of trying to be the very best. When you have 6 free hours in your day (which happens a lot), spending 4 of them studying isn't really so little, and adding an extra 2 to get honors may not be feasible on a daily basis. This will all make a lot more sense when you're in med school, because I remember thinking this way myself, but I promise it's not the same as undergrad. You're not in class with a bunch of slackers who bring down the curve and who have no business taking orgo, you're in there with 100+ people who care a lot about their education and have gotten that far. The average is often high and the standard deviation is small. And on every test at my school, a handful of people- the same people who got a very high MCAT and had a very high GPA (I go to a top 10-ish school)- straight up fail the test, and I know for sure they weren't out partying and drinking while I was studying because that's not how med school works.
It's a different standard. You have a different playing field. You'll be challenged by how smart your classmates are and it will be humbling and stressful and also really cool. No point in worrying about whether to put in the extra effort for Honors when you don't know how much that extra effort will really mean. For some of you, no amount of effort will lead to that. For others, just studying for classes the way you normally would will get you a higher grade.
 
Interesting how the people saying don't stress all began med school the same way, which was shooting for As like UG (which is totally understandable. We are raised like this). Thanks for all of your realistic input. While I have the same mentality of wanting to work to get the best grades possible, I guess it's all a "wait and see" type deal because us premeds just don't know what it's really like.
 
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