Optometrist calling themselves as Doctors...Is that proper?

[demayette]

Every healthcare workers with a post grad degree calling themselves doctors nowadays...Last week, I had a patient who told me the eye doctor was in to see him... I thought he was referring to an ophtalmologist (MD/DO) and It's when I check the chart to see if any orders was written that I see that she was an optometrist. My question is that if both patients and other healthcare workers can not distinguish who is a medical doctor anymore ... Isn't that putting the patients' care in jeopardy. Let say if I did not look at her notes and her signature, I would have assume that she was an ophtalmologist. For instance if another physician has ordered a referral for a an ophtalmologist, I would have said to that physician that the patient has been seen by one already... I think the term DOCTOR is being obsolete now that patients' well-being are being jeopardized...

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[o Farside o]

She is a DOCTOR of optometry.......so why whats your point again?

 

[demayette]

She is a DOCTOR of optometry.......so why whats your point again?

How can a patient differenciate an optometrist from an ophtalmologist? when both of them refer themselves as the eye doctor... I know the difference; however for an average patient it is not that clear.

 

[swamprat]

Idk actually on this one... but I know in a clinical setting doctor should only be synonomous with MD/DO...however when you see an optometrist I think you call them doctor ? Maybe not in a hospital? Idk it is a 4 year degree I believe.

 

[JaggerPlate]

It's dangerous for non MD/DO to call themselves doctor in a healthcare setting. Period. If an optometrist wants to introduce themselves as Dr at a cocktail party, or in their own private practice, no problem. They have a doctorate ... no biggie. But it's not cool to stand up while someone is choking at a restaurant and scream 'MOVE I'M A DOCTOR' or call themselves doctor in a hospital. Obvious exaggerations and dumb examples, but you get my point. America has a problem with people wanting the prize without putting in the work.

 

[Insulinshock]

I can't lie I don't think I've ever NOT called my optometrist Dr. whatever. I don't know why or how this habit started, but regardless I consider them "doctors" in their own specialty.

For me, it's kind of how I call my biology professors Dr. ________ . Same principle, I guess.

 

[Black Adder]

Optometrists are like primary care docs for eyes. Calling them a doctor doesn't seem so outrageous.

 

[footprints628]

First off, I'm sorry but I think when you have limited knowledge about a profession, it is better to ask before making assumptions. All professions should be equally respected whether that person is a doctor or not. I agree with you that the dominant view in society attaches the word "doctor" to MDs. But most of these people do not directly work in the healthcare profession. There is nothing we can do to change that even if it's not true; but as you are in the healthcare field, I'm disappointed to read this from you. Also, I must disagree with you referring to these healthcare providers as "healthcare workers" as in they are somehow inferior to MDs. Each path has its own specialty and should be equally respected as they contribute to a patient's well being not only in terms of physical health but quality of life as well. You can't really say an orange is better than the banana, can you? And how does it puts a patient's care in jeopardy? A dentist is also referred Dr.A but I'm sure that the patient is perfectly aware that Dr. A is going to provide him/her with dental care or the optometrist Dr. B is going to provide vision care. I don't go to a dentist thinking that I'm going to get medical care or an optometrist expecting a lasik operation.

Anyone who hold a doctorate degree is referred to as Dr.___. If you want to be specific, I believe only MDs can be referred to as a physician.

And as your note regarding not knowing the difference between which doctor unless you check the signature, well if you are a physician or any health care provider for that matter, you are responsible for your patient's well being. Hence, you should know where you're referring your patients to or where your patient's health summary is coming from. Aren't healthcare providers supposed to work together for the benefit of their patients? I hope this misunderstanding will resolve itself in time. The reason why you enter the healthcare sector is to provide care for your patients so what does it matter who's called what?

Every healthcare workers with a post grad degree calling themselves doctors nowadays...Last week, I had a patient who told me the eye doctor was in to see him... I thought he was referring to an ophtalmologist (MD/DO) and It's when I check the chart to see if any orders was written that I see that she was an optometrist. My question is that if both patients and other healthcare workers can not distinguish who is a medical doctor anymore ... Isn't that putting the patients' care in jeopardy. Let say if I did not look at her notes and her signature, I would have assume that she was an ophtalmologist. For instance if another physician has ordered a referral for a an ophtalmologist, I would have said to that physician that the patient has been seen by one already... I think the term DOCTOR is being obsolete now that patients' well-being are being jeopardized...

 

[Limvostov]

Optometrists are like primary care docs for eyes. Calling them a doctor doesn't seem so outrageous.

If you don't call your optometrist a doctor then do you also not call your dentist, chiropractor, professor(s) (you can't tell me you wouldn't call Steven Hawking "Dr. Hawking" if you met him), and well... anyone else who has a doctorate degree doctor? I believe physician is known best as being the "medically trained" doctor, but I feel that they all deserve to be addressed as doctor since they did happen to earn the "Dr." in front of their names.

 

[MSSM2013]

DO or OD, which one is the doctor? must be a trick question to the masses.

 

[facetguy]

Every healthcare workers with a post grad degree calling themselves doctors nowadays...Last week, I had a patient who told me the eye doctor was in to see him... I thought he was referring to an ophtalmologist (MD/DO) and It's when I check the chart to see if any orders was written that I see that she was an optometrist. My question is that if both patients and other healthcare workers can not distinguish who is a medical doctor anymore ... Isn't that putting the patients' care in jeopardy. Let say if I did not look at her notes and her signature, I would have assume that she was an ophtalmologist. For instance if another physician has ordered a referral for a an ophtalmologist, I would have said to that physician that the patient has been seen by one already... I think the term DOCTOR is being obsolete now that patients' well-being are being jeopardized...

By using "nowadays", you imply that they just jumped on this bandwagon last week or something, which is obviously incorrect.

And what if the patient had said they had seen their "doctor" for knee pain. Would you not ask what type of doctor? Their PCP? An ortho? A physiatrist? Somehow though the eye is an exception in your world.

 

[AMEHigh]

Yes they are doctors, just like dentists are doctors. Not necessarily medical doctors, but doctors nonetheless. When they graduate their degree will say Doctor of Optometry.

 

[engineeredout]

I've called my optometrists doctor at their practices, have no problem with it.

 

[RG73]

I have a Ph.D. Outside my office and lab the university puts "Dr." before my name. All my correspondence from the university says "Dr." when referring to me. When I've taught, students have called me "Dr." No one has ever mistaken me for a medical doctor, sadly. Which is why I'm going back for even more schooling to earn that title.

One of my best friends is a vet. I called him the other day and his voicemail says "hello, this is Dr. xxxxxx, please leave a message." I didn't confuse him for a human medical doctor. But, he is a real life doctor (except he can treat all species of mammals except humans), and he should be called doctor.

When I go to the dentist, I call the dentist "doctor." When I go to the optometrist, same thing. Just because they may practice in a building with medical doctors, I don't get confused that they're not MDs or DOs. Hell, I'd call a chiropractor, a naturopath or a Chinese medicine doctor "doctor." It doesn't mean I don't think they're quacks, but, they are "doctors" of something and spent a lot of time and effort studying that something (even if that something is crazy). It's just not a big deal.

If there is some public emergency and you hear the cliche "is there a doctor in the house," I'm pretty sure that the optometrist, PhD or Chinese med doc aren't going to be the ones to answer the call for help. Not unless the emergency has to do with someone's eyesight, sequence alignments, or, unbalanced chi.

As far as the public confusion over optometry versus ophthalmology in a "medical setting," I'm not sure how this would ever come up. I used to see an optometrist who worked in a mall. I mean the food court was around the corner, how am I going to mix him up with a medical doctor? Many optometrists do, in fact, practice in commercial, often shopping mall settings. No one is going to see "Dr" next to Cinnabon and The Gap and then decide they want to be seen for a heart condition. And if they do, those are the sorts of people that can't really be made to understand anything to begin with.

Now if we're talking about PAs or nurses trying to usurp the title of doctor in a hospital setting, yeah, that is problematic. But if we're talking about all the allied health professionals of the world who are also "doctors" being called doctor, well, this is a non-issue. When you see chiropractors or podiatrists trying to do, oh, vascular surgery or diagnostic rads, then we can worry. But something tells me that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

 

[da Vincis World]

First off, I'm sorry but I think when you have limited knowledge about a profession, it is better to ask before making assumptions. All professions should be equally respected whether that person is a doctor or not. I agree with you that the dominant view in society attaches the word "doctor" to MDs. But most of these people do not directly work in the healthcare profession. There is nothing we can do to change that even if it's not true; but as you are in the healthcare field, I'm disappointed to read this from you. Also, I must disagree with you referring to these healthcare providers as "healthcare workers" as in they are somehow inferior to MDs. Each path has its own specialty and should be equally respected as they contribute to a patient's well being not only in terms of physical health but quality of life as well. You can't really say an orange is better than the banana, can you? And how does it puts a patient's care in jeopardy? A dentist is also referred Dr.A but I'm sure that the patient is perfectly aware that Dr. A is going to provide him/her with dental care or the optometrist Dr. B is going to provide vision care. I don't go to a dentist thinking that I'm going to get medical care or an optometrist expecting a lasik operation.

Anyone who hold a doctorate degree is referred to as Dr.___. If you want to be specific, I believe only MDs can be referred to as a physician.

And as your note regarding not knowing the difference between which doctor unless you check the signature, well if you are a physician or any health care provider for that matter, you are responsible for your patient's well being. Hence, you should know where you're referring your patients to or where your patient's health summary is coming from. Aren't healthcare providers supposed to work together for the benefit of their patients? I hope this misunderstanding will resolve itself in time. The reason why you enter the healthcare sector is to provide care for your patients so what does it matter who's called what?

I believe the physician title can also refer to DO's.

 

[demayette]

A lot of you are taking my comments out of context... An optometrist working for wallmart callling himself eye doctor is fine me as we all know they are doctors of optometry. However, calling themselves the eye doctor in a clinical setting ( hospital, nusing home etc..) can create create confusion. Where I work we have an ophthalmologist (a DO) that usually see our patients. The confusion comes in its when the patient said to me the eye doctor was in to see him. I thought the patient was referring to the ophthalmologist. I believe It would have been better for the patient or for that matter for me for that optometrist to say that "I am an optometrist" instead of saying "I am the eye doctor". For Dentists I think it's ok for them to refer themselves as doctors because there is one kind of mouth/tooth doctor... As for optometrists referring themselves as the eye doctor in clinical settings I beleive that might create confusion .I AM FINE WITH OPTOMETRISTS CALLING THEMSELVES DOCTORS.
In a clinical setting when someone says that: "I AM Dr X", Everyone and I mean absolutely everyone assume that you are a physician.

 

[JaggerPlate]

People are missing the point. There is no problem respecting the guy for being an OD. No problem calling him Dr Eye Guy in his practice. No problem with him introducing himself as Dr, etc. The point that I believe the OP was trying to make was that it is dangerous when people who are not physicians (DO/MD) calling themselves Dr in a setting where physicians work. It can be dangerous. I'm going to give an example that I think reinforces the OPs point, and leads me to my point of view. I know an OD who is a huge douche. Has nothing to do with his degree, has to do with him as a person. He has a son who is essentially bi-polar and is on a whole slew of medications because of this and WAS doing quite well. One day the OD decided, for whatever reason, that he didn't want his kid on this meds. So he went to his son's school psychologist telling him that he was a DOCTOR and because of this knew that these medications were bad or whatever and demanded he be taking of them. The psychologist relayed this information to the doctor the kid had been referred to after meeting with the psychologist, he disagreed of course, but because it was the parent's wishes and the guy said he was a doctor ... bam, done. Long story short, the kid is in a military school now and has done some things in the last year like steal a car and become physically violent with members of his family. Now, was this appropriate??? Take it as you will. The guy may have done the same thing just as a parent, not claiming he was a physician, but it's my personal example/two cents/a situation which I find absurd.

 

[175961]

Optometrists are like primary care docs for eyes. Calling them a doctor doesn't seem so outrageous.

sounds like youre implying primary care physicians calling themselves doctors could be rather outrageous

 

[demayette]

People are missing the point. There is no problem respecting the guy for being an OD. No problem calling him Dr Eye Guy in his practice. No problem with him introducing himself as Dr, etc. The point that I believe the OP was trying to make was that it is dangerous when people who are not physicians (DO/MD) calling themselves Dr in a setting where physicians work. It can be dangerous. I'm going to give an example that I think reinforces the OPs point, and leads me to my point of view. I know an OD who is a huge douche. Has nothing to do with his degree, has to do with him as a person. He has a son who is essentially bi-polar and is on a whole slew of medications because of this and WAS doing quite well. One day the OD decided, for whatever reason, that he didn't want his kid on this meds. So he went to his son's school psychologist telling him that he was a DOCTOR and because of this knew that these medications were bad or whatever and demanded he be taking of them. The psychologist relayed this information to the doctor the kid had been referred to after meeting with the psychologist, he disagreed of course, but because it was the parent's wishes and the guy said he was a doctor ... bam, done. Long story short, the kid is in a military school now and has done some things in the last year like steal a car and become physically violent with members of his family. Now, was this appropriate??? Take it as you will. The guy may have done the same thing just as a parent, not claiming he was a physician, but it's my personal example/two cents/a situation which I find absurd.

Good... at least you understand what I am trying to convey here...

 

[willen101383]

The only people that care about this sort of thing are pre meds on SDN....yes realy. If I see anyone with their doctorate in a healthcare setting I refer to them as Dr. Even if anyone mistook someone for a physician in a healthcare setting it would not have an impact on safety or patientcare.

 

[stonewall22]

People are missing the point. There is no problem respecting the guy for being an OD. No problem calling him Dr Eye Guy in his practice. No problem with him introducing himself as Dr, etc. The point that I believe the OP was trying to make was that it is dangerous when people who are not physicians (DO/MD) calling themselves Dr in a setting where physicians work. It can be dangerous. I'm going to give an example that I think reinforces the OPs point, and leads me to my point of view. I know an OD who is a huge douche. Has nothing to do with his degree, has to do with him as a person. He has a son who is essentially bi-polar and is on a whole slew of medications because of this and WAS doing quite well. One day the OD decided, for whatever reason, that he didn't want his kid on this meds. So he went to his son's school psychologist telling him that he was a DOCTOR and because of this knew that these medications were bad or whatever and demanded he be taking of them. The psychologist relayed this information to the doctor the kid had been referred to after meeting with the psychologist, he disagreed of course, but because it was the parent's wishes and the guy said he was a doctor ... bam, done. Long story short, the kid is in a military school now and has done some things in the last year like steal a car and become physically violent with members of his family. Now, was this appropriate??? Take it as you will. The guy may have done the same thing just as a parent, not claiming he was a physician, but it's my personal example/two cents/a situation which I find absurd.

I think you're missing the point. Anyone with a doctoral degree is a doctor, and they all work hard to get there, and they are all deserving of being called by their title. Since you suggest OD should not be called doctors in a clinical setting, should MD/DOs not call themselves doctors outside the clinical setting?

Regarding your example...what's to stop me from just walking into a school and proclaiming I'm a doctor, or anyone for that matter? Anyway, the example is flawed to begin with because in almost all cases parents can make any choice they want. I don't have to be a doctor to decide that my children will or will not take certain meds. Now, it would be foolish for me to not listen to a doctor's advice, but it is my choice whether I'm a doctor or not.

 

[willen101383]

People are missing the point. There is no problem respecting the guy for being an OD. No problem calling him Dr Eye Guy in his practice. No problem with him introducing himself as Dr, etc. The point that I believe the OP was trying to make was that it is dangerous when people who are not physicians (DO/MD) calling themselves Dr in a setting where physicians work. It can be dangerous. I'm going to give an example that I think reinforces the OPs point, and leads me to my point of view. I know an OD who is a huge douche. Has nothing to do with his degree, has to do with him as a person. He has a son who is essentially bi-polar and is on a whole slew of medications because of this and WAS doing quite well. One day the OD decided, for whatever reason, that he didn't want his kid on this meds. So he went to his son's school psychologist telling him that he was a DOCTOR and because of this knew that these medications were bad or whatever and demanded he be taking of them. The psychologist relayed this information to the doctor the kid had been referred to after meeting with the psychologist, he disagreed of course, but because it was the parent's wishes and the guy said he was a doctor ... bam, done. Long story short, the kid is in a military school now and has done some things in the last year like steal a car and become physically violent with members of his family. Now, was this appropriate??? Take it as you will. The guy may have done the same thing just as a parent, not claiming he was a physician, but it's my personal example/two cents/a situation which I find absurd.

Psychologists cannot prescribe medications in most states. So how would the psychologist have any opinion on which drugs the son was on? BTW not to be a conspiracy theorist...but psychiatric drugs are inappropriately prescribed in MANY cases, and I am sure the lack of drugs did little to nothing to keep this kid under control.

 

[jjmad1201]

People are missing the point. There is no problem respecting the guy for being an OD. No problem calling him Dr Eye Guy in his practice. No problem with him introducing himself as Dr, etc. The point that I believe the OP was trying to make was that it is dangerous when people who are not physicians (DO/MD) calling themselves Dr in a setting where physicians work. It can be dangerous. I'm going to give an example that I think reinforces the OPs point, and leads me to my point of view. I know an OD who is a huge douche. Has nothing to do with his degree, has to do with him as a person. He has a son who is essentially bi-polar and is on a whole slew of medications because of this and WAS doing quite well. One day the OD decided, for whatever reason, that he didn't want his kid on this meds. So he went to his son's school psychologist telling him that he was a DOCTOR and because of this knew that these medications were bad or whatever and demanded he be taking of them. The psychologist relayed this information to the doctor the kid had been referred to after meeting with the psychologist, he disagreed of course, but because it was the parent's wishes and the guy said he was a doctor ... bam, done. Long story short, the kid is in a military school now and has done some things in the last year like steal a car and become physically violent with members of his family. Now, was this appropriate??? Take it as you will. The guy may have done the same thing just as a parent, not claiming he was a physician, but it's my personal example/two cents/a situation which I find absurd.

i dont recall the op ever saying that the optometrist introduced his/herself as dr. soandso in a physician office, the patient was merely saying the eye doctor.....getting tired of all these self-righteous pre-meds....

 

[willen101383]

I think you're missing the point. Anyone with a doctoral degree is a doctor, and they all work hard to get there, and they are all deserving of being called by their title. Since you suggest OD should not be called doctors in a clinical setting, should MD/DOs not call themselves doctors outside the clinical setting?

Regarding your example...what's to stop me from just walking into a school and proclaiming I'm a doctor, or anyone for that matter? Anyway, the example is flawed to begin with because in almost all cases parents can make any choice they want. I don't have to be a doctor to decide that my children will or will not take certain meds. Now, it would be foolish for me to not listen to a doctor's advice, but it is my choice whether I'm a doctor or not.

Exactly..the only people who care about this are premeds on SDN. Nobody cares. This thread belongs in the same category with the "Should nurses with a doctor of nursing, etc be called doctors." Yes they should be called doctors. They have their doctorate. If they are introducing themselves as physicians that is a misrepresentation of credentials.

 

[Black Adder]

sounds like youre implying primary care physicians calling themselves doctors could be rather outrageous

no.

 

[RG73]

Psychologists cannot prescribe medications in most states. So how would the psychologist have any opinion on which drugs the son was on? BTW not to be a conspiracy theorist...but psychiatric drugs are inappropriately prescribed in MANY cases, and I am sure the lack of drugs did little to nothing to keep this kid under control.

Well this is true. But lets go back to the issue of an OD passing himself off as an MD to a PsyD. What if the dad in question was a surgeon on some variety or other and then told the school psych the same thing? A surgeon isn't exactly an expert on child psych or psych meds. Clinical psychologists, despite not being able to prescribe psych drugs, need to know a ton about psych drugs and the conditions they're used to treat. In my hypothetical scenario it wouldn't necessarily matter if the parent in question is an OD pretending to be an MD/DO or if the parent was, in fact, an MD/DO, but practicing in a specialty far removed from mental health. The doctor of mental health (including the psychologists) probably know more in this scenario.

That all said, I find the entire idea of school psychologists and schools being in charge of students mental health kind of creepy and I would be exactly the sort of parent who would tell the school psych where they could shove their opinion of my kid. So I have some empathy with the OD in this story, all while recognizing that I'd likely make a decision on emotion in this scenario over reason. All of this still begs the question of why the school psych didn't question the OD on his credentials. Bad job there.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I think you're missing the point. Anyone with a doctoral degree is a doctor, and they all work hard to get there, and they are all deserving of being called by their title. Since you suggest OD should not be called doctors in a clinical setting, should MD/DOs not call themselves doctors outside the clinical setting?

Regarding your example...what's to stop me from just walking into a school and proclaiming I'm a doctor, or anyone for that matter? Anyway, the example is flawed to begin with because in almost all cases parents can make any choice they want. I don't have to be a doctor to decide that my children will or will not take certain meds. Now, it would be foolish for me to not listen to a doctor's advice, but it is my choice whether I'm a doctor or not.

1. I'm not missing the point. I have no issue with any doctorate calling themselves a doctor. Just don't do it in an incorrect clinical setting, it's dangerous ... and that was the OPs point. Trust me, I've seen it happen in a hospital multiple times, it's not cool. Patient care = number 1 priority, not people's feelings.

2. (walking example) ummm nothing I guess??? I don't see your point. My point was that this guy was being misleading because he HAD a doctorate, and a patient suffered. Second, in this case the patient had no say because he was a minor and he suffered greatly because of it.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Psychologists cannot prescribe medications in most states. So how would the psychologist have any opinion on which drugs the son was on? BTW not to be a conspiracy theorist...but psychiatric drugs are inappropriately prescribed in MANY cases, and I am sure the lack of drugs did little to nothing to keep this kid under control.

Psychologist recognized bi-polar disorder and made a referral to a medical doctor??? And yeah, save the soap box lectures for another thread. The drugs really helped this kid, I can attest first hand to that.

 

[JaggerPlate]

i dont recall the op ever saying that the optometrist introduced his/herself as dr. soandso in a physician office, the patient was merely saying the eye doctor.....getting tired of all these self-righteous pre-meds....

1. He didn't say it, but it was his point. 2. I'm not being a self-righteous pre-med, I'm advocating putting ego aside for the sake of patient care. Simple. Also, unless I am mistaken ... you are a pre-med??? And if so, tell me you aren't being self-righteous by putting yourself on some higher level than the rest of us??

 

[JaggerPlate]

Exactly..the only people who care about this are premeds on SDN. Nobody cares. This thread belongs in the same category with the "Should nurses with a doctor of nursing, etc be called doctors." Yes they should be called doctors. They have their doctorate. If they are introducing themselves as physicians that is a misrepresentation of credentials.

Again, I have no problem with anyone who has a doctorate saying they are a doctor ... but it is dangerous to do so in a clinical setting where the norm for doctor is physician, and that was the OPs point.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

So should a medical doctor be referred to as "Mr." if he happens to be in an educational setting?

 

[RG73]

Again, I have no problem with anyone who has a doctorate saying they are a doctor ... but it is dangerous to do so in a clinical setting where the norm for doctor is physician, and that was the OPs point.

As I pointed out, most optometrists tend to set up shop near the food court in the mall, and thus you will not likely encounter them in a clinical setting where they might be confused with an ophthalmologist.

Optometrists being in clinical settings with MDs/Dos is a relatively low probability event. I know that we live in a society that is obsessed with legislation based upon rare events and all, but, that doesn't change the fact that there is very little possibility an optometrist can be confused with an MD/DO in a setting where it is actually important. Optometrists aren't going to be working in hospitals and they can't set up private practice as anything but optometrists. It seems the only case of "confusion" presented thus far is your one anecdotal observation. And it wasn't even confusion really. Parents tell school psychs to shove it all the time--I'm not sure the "I'm a doctor" bit really mattered. Even if it did, your n=1. Come back to us when you have enough data to do some statistics. There simply is no epidemic of optometrists being mistaken in clinical settings for being anything other than optometrists. Ditto chiropractors, podiatrists, dentists, veterinarians, naturopaths, Chinese medicine docs, PhDs in basic sciences, epidemiologists, or anyone else. It doesn't happen.

There was a PhD student in sociology at my alma mater who earlier this year passed herself off in a health care town hall meeting as a "doctor" to both a Congress critter and reporters. Since pretending to be a doctor in that state is a felony offense, I don't believe she is in any danger of being a doctor of sociology or anything else at this point. So yeah, every once in a blue moon some idiot pretends to be a medical doctor. It either has no impact on society (as in your single observation), or they get busted by the law and they wind up paying some hefty fines, do jail time, etc.

So yes, I suppose there is some very, very, very small danger some unscrupulous optometrist can decide he wants to move from next door to the food court to inside the university medical center and treat patients. I'm just not convinced this hypothetical individual would progress very far in such an endeavor before having his hypothetical ass handed to him by a number of hypothetical entities that stand in the way of just such things happening.

 

[JaggerPlate]

So should a medical doctor be referred to as "Mr." if he happens to be in an educational setting?

No, but if he is a dermatologist and he strolls into the first day in an advanced biochemistry class at Harvard, introduces himself as doctor and starts lecturing ... maybe he should explain that he's a clinical dermatologist, not a PhD in Biochem before all the students assume he is an expert in biochemistry/ their professor. The eagerness to argue on these threads never ceases to amaze me. The OP wasn't trying to make some outrageous or complicated claim.

 

[JaggerPlate]

As I pointed out, most optometrists tend to set up shop near the food court in the mall, and thus you will not likely encounter them in a clinical setting where they might be confused with an ophthalmologist.

Optometrists being in clinical settings with MDs/Dos is a relatively low probability event. I know that we live in a society that is obsessed with legislation based upon rare events and all, but, that doesn't change the fact that there is very little possibility an optometrist can be confused with an MD/DO in a setting where it is actually important. Optometrists aren't going to be working in hospitals and they can't set up private practice as anything but optometrists. It seems the only case of "confusion" presented thus far is your one anecdotal observation. And it wasn't even confusion really. Parents tell school psychs to shove it all the time--I'm not sure the "I'm a doctor" bit really mattered. Even if it did, your n=1. Come back to us when you have enough data to do some statistics. There simply is no epidemic of optometrists being mistaken in clinical settings for being anything other than optometrists. Ditto chiropractors, podiatrists, dentists, veterinarians, naturopaths, Chinese medicine docs, PhDs in basic sciences, epidemiologists, or anyone else. It doesn't happen.

There was a PhD student in sociology at my alma mater who earlier this year passed herself off in a health care town hall meeting as a "doctor" to both a Congress critter and reporters. Since pretending to be a doctor in that state is a felony offense, I don't believe she is in any danger of being a doctor of sociology or anything else at this point. So yeah, every once in a blue moon some idiot pretends to be a medical doctor. It either has no impact on society (as in your single observation), or they get busted by the law and they wind up paying some hefty fines, do jail time, etc.

So yes, I suppose there is some very, very, very small danger some unscrupulous optometrist can decide he wants to move from next door to the food court to inside the university medical center and treat patients. I'm just not convinced this hypothetical individual would progress very far in such an endeavor before having his hypothetical ass handed to him by a number of hypothetical entities that stand in the way of just such things happening.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

a lot of premed hysteria and snobbery going on here

 

[lawyerdoc2b]

I have a "Juris Doctor" degree but have never introduced myself as "Doctor."

When I attended an interview this Fall, when the interviewer called my name he said "Dr. X" I looked around to see who he was calling. It took me a second or two to realize he was calling me. Turns out he was a PH.D. teaching at a medical school and must have had some title or degree inferiority complex and was hung up on titles. Either that or he was overly curtious or wierd.

My wife is a Nurse Practioner. Another NP in the hospital where she works just finished her "DNP" - Doctor of Nursing Practice. When she started introducing herself as "Doctor X" to her patients without explaining she was a doctor of nursing rather than a physician the other NPs put a stop to it. The physicians couldn't have cared less.

 

[RG73]

I have a "Juris Doctor" degree but have never introduced myself as "Doctor."

But see J.D.'s aren't "real" doctors. You guys only had to do 3 years of school.

Since I have way too much time to wiki this stuff tonight...

There has been some debate in the United States as to whether J.D. recipients may use the title of Doctor and refer to themselves as "Doctor" (see debate section). ABA Informal Opinion 1152 (1970) and Disciplinary Rule 2-102(E) permit those who hold a Juris Doctor (J.D.) to use the title.[119] Some local bar associations in the U.S. have released opinion papers stating that J.D. holders may use the title of "doctor" in those jurisdictions.[120] The J.D. is not considered by some to be a terminal degree, leading to questions about the status of the J.D. as a doctorate and the eligibility of J.D. holders to use the "doctor" title.

I guess when you're done with med school you can be "doctor-at-law" or "doctor-squared-at-law" if you want to really be over the top with it.

 

[MSUSpartan642]

How has this thread even gotten this long.

Seriously who cares either way. If they wanna rub their ego's some I could care less.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

lawyers are referred to as doctors in latin american countries.

 

[Lewist02]

A Doctor is anyone who obtains a doctorate level degree. I called all of my professors Dr _______ if they had there PhD, and have always referred to my Optometrist as Dr. I think it is respectful because they did put their time in to earn their doctorate. Technically a lawyer is a Doctor because they earn their "Juris Doctorate," however it is questionable considering many of them complete an LLM (Masters of Law) AFTER the Doctorate. All in all, just because you are not a Doctor of Medicine does not mean you should not be referred to as "Doctor."

But I do agree with Jagger. To prevent from confusion, individuals should distinguish their degree. In our society, if you refer to yourself as a "Doctor" and not as having a "Doctorate in Philosophy," many people would be confused.

And technically, we are (will be) "Physicians," which is our proper term.

 

[RG73]

To prevent from confusion, individuals should distinguish their degree.

Again, I fail to see what the issue is. I presume all of you posting here have done your fair share of time in a hospital, so you kind of know how it works. Patients do not walk up to random people in white coats and ask to be seen or get input on medical questions. So if an optometrist is walking down the hall, there is very little danger of any lay person trying to get that ODs medical opinion on anything even eye related. Likewise, other medical staff don't just grab any random person in the hospital or clinic. So there is really little danger of medical folks confusing one type of doctor for another. It's not like cards is going to page someone in optometry. No danger there.

So if there isn't any sort of internal possibility of confusion, nor any external possibility of confusion, why do people think there is confusion? So I actually checked one of the hospital I volunteer at and they have 1 OD on staff. He's clearly listed as being on the "eye service" and clearly listed as an OD. There is also "eye care" which is clearly staffed by MD ophthalmologists. It says clearly on the website the OD gives you glasses and treats some eye pathologies. It says clearly on the website that the ophthal guys do surgery. Not sure how this could possibly confuse anyone. There is no danger if you show up to the ER with severe eye trauma of being seen by an OD. Zero.

I think the only confusion seems to be that some people are worried that the general public may not know the difference between an OD or a DO or an ophthalmologist if you quizzed them. I don't see how this makes a big difference since our health care system is pretty good about limiting patient choice in the first place. It'd be pretty hard for you to accidentally seek out the wrong sort of doctor for an eye issue. If you walk into an optometrist presenting with a serious eye pathology, they'll send you to an MD/DO. If you show up to the MD and you can't see far objects, they'll send you to Lenscrafters. If you show up to an FP DO with an eye issue that is beyond the scope of FP, they'll refer you to the ophthal person.

So color me perplexed as to how this could possibly be an issue.

 

[Lewist02]

I fail to see what the issue is.

There is no serious issue. My comment was referring to the ignorance of people in society assuming that a "Doctor" means a "Physician," which is not always the case.

Patients do not walk up to random people in white coats and ask to be seen or get input on medical questions.

And as an individual who has spent hundreds of hours interning in a hospital and wearing a long white-coat the entire time (requirement), I had many patients who pulled me aside, especially in the ED. Obviously (and thankfully for them) I did not try to treat them!

 

[beckhunter116]

After reading this whole thing the point that I take away is that since the general public is typically confused about various degrees and titles you should always check a patients chart to make sure they saw the appropriate provider for whatever ailment so there is NO CONFUSION. My concern is my patients well-being and my liability if I wasn't checking over their charts to find any coordinating information I needed to see from other providers.

Even here you all have mistakenly assigned degrees. Typically, a school psychologist has an Ed.S not a Ph.D or PsyD degree.

 

[Danae00]

Every healthcare workers with a post grad degree calling themselves doctors nowadays...Last week, I had a patient who told me the eye doctor was in to see him... I thought he was referring to an ophtalmologist (MD/DO) and It's when I check the chart to see if any orders was written that I see that she was an optometrist. My question is that if both patients and other healthcare workers can not distinguish who is a medical doctor anymore ... Isn't that putting the patients' care in jeopardy. Let say if I did not look at her notes and her signature, I would have assume that she was an ophtalmologist. For instance if another physician has ordered a referral for a an ophtalmologist, I would have said to that physician that the patient has been seen by one already... I think the term DOCTOR is being obsolete now that patients' well-being are being jeopardized...

It looks to me like the problem is not with the public, but rather with some MDs assuming that a patient referring to someone as "doctor so-and-so" must be refering to another physician.

The fact that this is such a common topic on SDN continually amazes me. I am older than many of you (still not that old though!) and I never recall a time when the title "doctor" was thought to be reserved for MDs. Even when I was 5 I knew that Dr. Bob was a "doggie-doctor" and not a "people-doctor".

 

[Limvostov]

Now if we're talking about PAs or nurses trying to usurp the title of doctor in a hospital setting, yeah, that is problematic. But if we're talking about all the allied health professionals of the world who are also "doctors" being called doctor, well, this is a non-issue. When you see chiropractors or podiatrists trying to do, oh, vascular surgery or diagnostic rads, then we can worry. But something tells me that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

I could see NP's wanting to be called "doctor" really soon as most of the programs are now going to 4 year programs, thus becoming doctorate degrees. My wife has actually entertained the idea of finishing up one of these in the coming years so she can have more freedom of mind in the world of accute care. Makes good sesnse too, NP's around here make as much or more than FP or Peds and there is no residency and the hours are really nice.

 

[demayette]

People are not seeing the real problem here with everybody calling themselves doctors. I have another example from this subject again. I know a physician assistant who was working for a doctor. This particular physician assistant has a doctorate in another field (I do not remember exactly what field it is; but it was not in any area of medicine). When he was working for the doctor, his name on his white coat was (not gonna use his real name): John Doe PA-C. Then the doctor retired and the PA bought the practice... after buying the practice suddently he puts in his coat: Dr John Doe PA-C. Do you guys think its ok for him to do that because he has a doctorate? There is an attending physician where I work who know the PA is doing that, he even said that is dangerous however he was not willing to report him.
Another thing I have been hearing people say is that Physician Assistants can not have their own practice: Yes they can... all they have to do is hiring a medical director MD or DO who is willing to take a piece of the pie. I have seen that where I am living now... There is a PA that has his own clinic and the physician stop by one day a week for about 2 hours to do chart review. That PA was my PCP when I did not have insurance and he was good.

 

[RG73]

And as an individual who has spent hundreds of hours interning in a hospital and wearing a long white-coat the entire time (requirement), I had many patients who pulled me aside, especially in the ED. Obviously (and thankfully for them) I did not try to treat them!

All bets are off in the ED. Hell, people will get so desperate that they'll try to start asking the custodial staff medical questions. But maybe it's the Minnesota nice thing here--people are hesitant to talk to strangers period here, so they wouldn't dream of trying to grab a "doctor" out of the hallway or the cafeteria to ask a question. Talking to strangers=bad in Minnesota. Nonetheless, I have noticed that at the cafeteria, for example, physicians have cultivated the awesome look of "don't even think of talking to me during the 10 minutes I have to eat before working another 8 hours." Note to self: work on that look.

So yes, I realize it is entirely possible that people could randomly grab a "non-physician" doctor or any random person in a white coat, no one is going to give out billable advice for free, and no one is going to risk lawsuits for giving out advice they're not legally trained to.

As to the larger issue of public confusion between various types of doctors/physicians and other medical folks---the public is confused by just about everything. It would be nice if there was better knowledge about these issues in the greater public. However, as I said, given the structure of medical insurance these days (and the difficulty most people have in just walking into a specialist), the cost of treatment outside of insurance, and the various legal hurdles and protections, I think it is difficult for people to get hurt over their confusion. It's hard for them to make boneheaded decisions like screwing up the difference between an OD and an ophthal doc and risky for medical professionals to step beyond the bounds of their proscribed sphere of practice.

 

[spicedmanna]

All bets are off in the ED. Hell, people will get so desperate that they'll try to start asking the custodial staff medical questions. But maybe it's the Minnesota nice thing here--people are hesitant to talk to strangers period here, so they wouldn't dream of trying to grab a "doctor" out of the hallway or the cafeteria to ask a question. Talking to strangers=bad in Minnesota. Nonetheless, I have noticed that at the cafeteria, for example, physicians have cultivated the awesome look of "don't even think of talking to me during the 10 minutes I have to eat before working another 8 hours." Note to self: work on that look.

So yes, I realize it is entirely possible that people could randomly grab a "non-physician" doctor or any random person in a white coat, no one is going to give out billable advice for free, and no one is going to risk lawsuits for giving out advice they're not legally trained to.

It's a problem for my colleagues and I, where we work, actually. Seriously, patients and their families always seem to think I'm a physician, even when I explicitly introduce myself as a medical student multiple times. I think I corrected one patient about 10 times, that I am a medical student, not a physician, and she finally said, "fine, medical doctor, then." Fail. Even the nursing staff gets confused from time to time; sometimes they think I'm a doctor and will ask me to write orders.

Anyway, if you wear a white coat and act the part, most people will think you are physician, no matter how explicit you make it that you are not. Probably non-physicians referring to themselves as "doctor" in a medical setting, such as a hospital, or ambulatory clinic, contributes to the confusion. I think things are confusing enough anyhow.

 

[JaggerPlate]

People are not seeing the real problem here with everybody calling themselves doctors. I have another example from this subject again. I know a physician assistant who was working for a doctor. This particular physician assistant has a doctorate in another field (I do not remember exactly what field it is; but it was not in any area of medicine). When he was working for the doctor, his name on his white coat was (not gonna use his real name): John Doe PA-C. Then the doctor retired and the PA bought the practice... after buying the practice suddently he puts in his coat: Dr John Doe PA-C. Do you guys think its ok for him to do that because he has a doctorate? There is an attending physician where I work who know the PA is doing that, he even said that is dangerous however he was not willing to report him.
Another thing I have been hearing people say is that Physician Assistants can not have their own practice: Yes they can... all they have to do is hiring a medical director MD or DO who is willing to take a piece of the pie. I have seen that where I am living now... There is a PA that has his own clinic and the physician stop by one day a week for about 2 hours to do chart review. That PA was my PCP when I did not have insurance and he was good.

I saw a website one time with the exact same thing. A guy had a PhD and then went back and got his PA-C and was 'Dr X' on this medical website (it was for a field of cosmetic surgery). The guy had an MD in his practice that oversaw things, signed off on scripts, etc. Not kosher.

 

[scpod]

....Anyway, if you wear a white coat and act the part, most people will think you are physician....

Actually, the only people who DON'T wear white coats in my hospital anymore are the physicians. The NPs, PAs, PTs, OTs, Students, Dieticians, Pharmacists, Social Workers....etc. ALL wear them.