Orion Taraban, PsyD: Licensed psychologist or red pill guru?

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psych_luxgirl

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Introducing Orion Taraban, PsyD Author of "The Value of Others: Understanding the Economic Model of Relationships to Get (and Keep) More of What You Want in the Sexual Marketplace" and owner of the YouTube channel PsycHacks (PsycHacks), Orion has amassed quite the audience and has appeared on several other YouTube channels such as Soft White Underbelly, The Diary of a CEO, and Leveling up Eric Siu (I am personally unfamiliar with the latter two) to speak about his opinions.

He is a licensed clinical psychologist who openly talks about people's "sexual marketplace value." He says that a woman's 'peak value' is at 18 and gradually declines throughout her life, with her best years being between 18 and 25. In contrast, he argues that men's peak value starts at 30 and continues to rise thereafter. He asserts that women should be, and I quote, "nastiest sluttiest version of yourself" to get and keep a man, even suggesting that "sex is the Trojan horse to get into the city." He supports his argument based on experiences in client therapy and consultation, saying that "a guy is not going to hit and quit a woman who does the freaky nasty **** for him because he knows he can't get that on the street corner." These quotes are based on a Soft White Underbelly interview that was done 7 months ago on love and marriage.

What is the most disconcerting is he is able to provide what sound like logical arguments, constantly able to cite research and speak from personal experience about these things, that make him sound right. As many of you are psychologists on this forum - you can understand why this is tricky when our brains rely on quick heuristics (appearance, status, education level) to make judgments based on others. Combine heuristics with knowledge (or the appearance of such), and we bypass our critical thinking skills to adopt these ways of thinking as truth.

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There are two polarizing opinions on him: People have called him the Andrew Tate that went to college (he's terrible, feeding into the red pill misogynistic agenda), and those that absolutely love and adore him (he makes perfect sense, highly applicable, saved my life).

Here are some of the comments that I have pulled from Reddit or Youtube about people's differing opinions on him:

1. "I discovered this dude a few weeks ago and while it was initially hard for me be on board with what he was saying, I do believe he has talked to hundreds of men and knows what he's talking about. A lot of what he says is very logical. I'm a woman and I don't disagree with most of it but I do also think he sometimes caters to incels, likely because he's worked with a lot of them and knows how they work."

2. "The worst part is he is articulate. He can make as many emotionally charged references to literature to explicate his concept of “love separate from relationship” and get Mark’s praise etc. but this **** is horrible. I’ve watched my family fall apart because of mentalities like this. I’ve met plenty of “high value” (capital tool) men and they are miserable. His own advice works poorly for him, as he admits he can’t get laid anymore since becoming a “rich successful psychologist.”

3. "I'm not one to easily give compliments but I'll say this, Dr. Orion Taraban is on another level. No joke, this guy’s like the Batman of psychology, you know, if Batman traded the cape for a whiteboard and started dropping Redpill wisdom like it’s Gotham at 2 AM. The way he breaks down complex topics with such logical consistency is honestly mind-blowing. It’s like watching someone solve a Rubik’s Cube with their eyes closed, except instead of colors, he’s untangling the twisted mess that is human behavior.

As a fellow psych nerd, I’ve gotta say, I’ve never seen someone apply psychological theory to real-life situations with such finesse. Most people out here are regurgitating the same old buzzwords, but Dr. Orion? He’s out here serving up gourmet-level insights while the rest of us are still nibbling on fast food. And the best part? His takes actually hold up. You can poke at them, test them, try to find a flaw, and good luck with that because the dude’s got receipts.

*fast forward a few paragraphs*

He doesn’t just talk about these deep, complex topics, he slices them up with surgical precision, and you’re left sitting there like, “How did I not see that before?” watching his videos is like getting a masterclass in logic and critical thinking. You know that feeling when you finally understand a meme that’s been flying over your head? Yeah, it’s like that, but with human behavior and psychological principles. By the time he’s done, you’re nodding along, thinking, “Okay, I get it now.”

4. "It's wild to have you put this into perspective. Simply wow. Men need to understand this. We all know woman simply won't listen to this or pretend it's not true."

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Reading some of these comments baffles me, but does not surprise me. Nor does it surprise me he has such a large audience that agrees with him. I am just astonished that someone practicing under a psychology license is able to make such sweeping claims about people and relationships publicly, as it doesn't seem ethical.

Thoughts?

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Never heard of the guy, quick google search of him, apparently he went to a known diploma mill for his doctoral degree

Apparently he's live on YouTube now answering questions from people giving him donations on YouTube. If Freud was alive today, would have a field day with this guy.
 
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I haven't heard of this person either.

If we're being ethical, we probably shouldn't sound like a guru with all the answers in a tidy (often expensive) package. Someone is always willing to sell their integrity though.

I wish it were not so lucrative to exploit lonely people with the promise that all they have to do to be happy is crack some kind of code.
 
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As I near the age of 40, I’ve only gotten hotter. Check and mate.

In all seriousness, I’ve been exposed to the ideas of economic views of relationships. I mean, I guess I can think of findings that support these ideas, but I can also identify findings that contradict such views. This dude also bases some ideas on his experience providing therapy? Oh.

Sounds like this guy is just a good talker.
 
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He asserts that women should be, and I quote, "nastiest sluttiest version of yourself" to get and keep a man, even suggesting that "sex is the Trojan horse to get into the city." He supports his argument based on experiences in client therapy and consultation, saying that "a guy is not going to hit and quit a woman who does the freaky nasty **** for him because he knows he can't get that on the street corner." These quotes are based on a Soft White Underbelly interview that was done 7 months ago on love and marriage.
Ah, can’t beat this rigorous methodology.
 
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I posted about dude on here a few months ago. He went to Alliant. Later on in life. I looked for his CV and before his rigorous graduate training he started a company to help train people up with the GRE. And yet....he could only get into Alliant. Hilarious. He just spews the same red pill stuff over and over and those dudes in that podcast space eat it up (i.e., whatever, fresh n fit, rich cooper). I've been licensed 5 years longer than bro and went to a reputable state school... And this dude charges 500/hr for "man therapy." I'm doing something wrong i guess.
 
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I posted about dude on here a few months ago. He went to Alliant. Later on in life. I looked for his CV and before his rigorous graduate training he started a company to help train people up with the GRE. And yet....he could only get into Alliant. Hilarious. He just spews the same red pill stuff over and over and those dudes in that podcast space eat it up (i.e., whatever, fresh n fit, rich cooper). I've been licensed 5 years longer than bro and went to a reputable state school... And this dude charges 500/hr for "man therapy." I'm doing something wrong i guess.

There's always been a lot of money for the snakeoil salesman and hucksters, the key is being able to live with yourself by doing it. I make very good money in the medicolegal world, but I could make multiples of that, with less effort, by operating pseudoscientific "concussion clinics" similar to Amen. We have a local shsyter here, a "school neuropsychologist," who uses QEEG and neurofeedback to treat concussions and a host of other things. The money is there for the taking, you just have to lack competence, integrity, or both.
 
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So another Jordan Peterson? Although Peterson at least had solid credentials once upon a time.
 
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Generally speaking, boards are reluctant to act when a psychologist is making public statements, regardless of how insane. Their purview is largely over things you do when performing the acts of a psychologist. That isn't to say there aren't exceptions. Shouting from the rooftops that the purple space aliens living in your butt are secretly running the US government could certainly trigger an investigation into your competence, at the very least. Things like this unfortunately are generally not going to rise to that level (even if arguably more harmful?).

Agree with others that the school is likely also a factor here. From my perspective this person doesn't have a "real" doctorate.
 
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Just from what you are saying, it sounds reductionist at best. It also doesn’t sound like anything really that revelatory. Male humans tend to see younger female humans as attractive and female humans find older male humans as more attractive. Brilliant. I would have never known. When this is broadened into making generalized statements about culture and human behavior that is where it loses any credibility. One advantage of the human primate is the adaptility of behavior to suit new environments, this includes mating rituals. Also, in other breaking news, sex sells.
 
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Just from what you are saying, it sounds reductionist at best. It also doesn’t sound like anything really that revelatory. Male humans tend to see younger female humans as attractive and female humans find older male humans as more attractive. Brilliant. I would have never known. When this is broadened into making generalized statements about culture and human behavior that is where it loses any credibility. One advantage of the human primate is the adaptility of behavior to suit new environments, this includes mating rituals. Also, in other breaking news, sex sells.
Indeed, as does capitalizing on stereotypes (particularly when spun in a way to be beneficial to the target consumer), overgeneralizations, and insecurities. Discussing and thinking about nuance and grey areas is hard; it's much easier to just be told that something is or is not true, ideally the former when you (the consumer) agree with it and the latter when you disagree.
 
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My only real take away from this, and some other recent examples, is that incels apparently have more disposable income than I once thought and are ripe for taking advantage of. Although, at this point, probably late to the game to get in a new hustle with these rubes.
 
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I posted about dude on here a few months ago. He went to Alliant. Later on in life. I looked for his CV and before his rigorous graduate training he started a company to help train people up with the GRE. And yet....he could only get into Alliant. Hilarious. He just spews the same red pill stuff over and over and those dudes in that podcast space eat it up (i.e., whatever, fresh n fit, rich cooper). I've been licensed 5 years longer than bro and went to a reputable state school... And this dude charges 500/hr for "man therapy." I'm doing something wrong i guess.

My only real take away from this, and some other recent examples, is that incels apparently have more disposable income than I once thought and are ripe for taking advantage of. Although, at this point, probably late to the game to get in a new hustle with these rubes.


While people are focusing on the school, I think that location has more to do with this than anything. As @BuckeyeLove pointed out his background is sales. He resides in a state that has the highest concentration of single men to single women in he country (Bay area) and these are well paid men given the location. His "consultations" (which he explicitly states are not psychotherapy) are $800/hr via teleconference. While he is being provocative to "sell" to a particular client base, I think it is a mistake to dismiss him (or Jordan Peterson). Between online dating apps, increased isolation in the pandemic, and a society with less clear cut gender roles, there are huge number of people struggling with what was normal social interactions and skills developed organically in the past through modeling. I was recently discussing Jonathon Haidt's "The anxious generation" over dinner with friends and I think this discussion fits nicely into that one as well. There are a lot of people that struggle with isolation and social relationships. They simply do not have the social skills or support system to cope with their struggles effectively. Without healthier alternatives in the space, people will continue to follow whatever is there.
 
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While people are focusing on the school, I think that location has more to do with this than anything. As @BuckeyeLove pointed out his background is sales. He resides in a state that has the highest concentration of single men to single women in he country (Bay area) and these are well paid men given the location. His "consultations" (which he explicitly states are not psychotherapy) are $800/hr via teleconference. While he is being provocative to "sell" to a particular client base, I think it is a mistake to dismiss him (or Jordan Peterson). Between online dating apps, increased isolation in the pandemic, and a society with less clear cut gender roles, there are huge number of people struggling with what was normal social interactions and and skills developed organically in the past through modeling. I was recently discussing Jonathon Haidt's "The anxious generation" over dinner with friends and I think this discussion fits nicely into that one as well. There are a lot of people that struggle with isolation and social relationships. They simply do not have the social skills or support system to cope with their struggles effectively. Without healthier alternatives in the space, people will continue to follow whatever is there.
This is true. I was part of a panel on a college campus with STEM students a few years ago that allowed for anonymous questions. By far the most common themes were loneliness and how to meet and talk to women. This is a big deal for a lot of young adult men, especially it seems in male dominated stem fields.
 
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While people are focusing on the school, I think that location has more to do with this than anything. As @BuckeyeLove pointed out his background is sales. He resides in a state that has the highest concentration of single men to single women in he country (Bay area) and these are well paid men given the location. His "consultations" (which he explicitly states are not psychotherapy) are $800/hr via teleconference. While he is being provocative to "sell" to a particular client base, I think it is a mistake to dismiss him (or Jordan Peterson). Between online dating apps, increased isolation in the pandemic, and a society with less clear cut gender roles, there are huge number of people struggling with what was normal social interactions and skills developed organically in the past through modeling. I was recently discussing Jonathon Haidt's "The anxious generation" over dinner with friends and I think this discussion fits nicely into that one as well. There are a lot of people that struggle with isolation and social relationships. They simply do not have the social skills or support system to cope with their struggles effectively. Without healthier alternatives in the space, people will continue to follow whatever is there.

I don't disagree, but what's the solution? Social skills training?
 
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I don't disagree, but what's the solution? Social skills training?

Social skills training wouldn't be a bad idea. Neither would support/process groups. We know that socialization and support networks are a key factor is encouraging mental health and wellness. There is a reason all the old guys hung out together at the VA gyms and Patriot cafe with their cup of coffee. Everyone needs community.
 
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Never heard of the guy, quick google search of him, apparently he went to a known diploma mill for his doctoral degree

Apparently he's live on YouTube now answering questions from people giving him donations on YouTube. If Freud was alive today, would have a field day with this guy.
I popped into that live for a few minutes. He was talking about how you should avoid dating people with personality disorders because they will always be unstable to date. Which led me to think, how can one talk so definitively about other people? Plus, many people with personality disorders go on to have good relationships with people, especially after they get treatment for their PD...
 
Generally speaking, boards are reluctant to act when a psychologist is making public statements, regardless of how insane. Their purview is largely over things you do when performing the acts of a psychologist. That isn't to say there aren't exceptions. Shouting from the rooftops that the purple space aliens living in your butt are secretly running the US government could certainly trigger an investigation into your competence, at the very least. Things like this unfortunately are generally not going to rise to that level (even if arguably more harmful?).

Agree with others that the school is likely also a factor here. From my perspective this person doesn't have a "real" doctorate.
It's really too bad boards don't have the motivation to do much in situations like this. I understand their focus is on reviewing individual competency, however it feels wrong to have such a prominent figure publicly share misleading information using the PsyD name and a legally protected title (i.e. 'psychologist') to spew their propaganda. It feels like more should be done.
 
While people are focusing on the school, I think that location has more to do with this than anything. As @BuckeyeLove pointed out his background is sales. He resides in a state that has the highest concentration of single men to single women in he country (Bay area) and these are well paid men given the location. His "consultations" (which he explicitly states are not psychotherapy) are $800/hr via teleconference. While he is being provocative to "sell" to a particular client base, I think it is a mistake to dismiss him (or Jordan Peterson). Between online dating apps, increased isolation in the pandemic, and a society with less clear cut gender roles, there are huge number of people struggling with what was normal social interactions and skills developed organically in the past through modeling. I was recently discussing Jonathon Haidt's "The anxious generation" over dinner with friends and I think this discussion fits nicely into that one as well. There are a lot of people that struggle with isolation and social relationships. They simply do not have the social skills or support system to cope with their struggles effectively. Without healthier alternatives in the space, people will continue to follow whatever is there.
You nicely spoke to the greater picture here. Well done!
 
This is true. I was part of a panel on a college campus with STEM students a few years ago that allowed for anonymous questions. By far the most common themes were loneliness and how to meet and talk to women. This is a big deal for a lot of young adult men, especially it seems in male dominated stem fields.
Definitely. Men are definitely interested in women but simply don't know how to approach them. I think there is a similar struggle with women as well. The overarching question is, How do we connect with the other?

Thinking back my own life experiences, and being friends with men who struggled with relationships - many of them did not have health family dynamics modeled to them growing up. They desperately wanted to make relationships work, but did not have the skills and knowledge to know how to. Although I know my personal experiences do not paint the full picture of this phenomena of disconnect men are experiencing - it just makes me wonder if the men who struggle with dating now did not have good role models growing up to show them how to be in a relationship. How do you approach a woman? How do you make a woman feel safe, cared for, and valued? How do you be the kind of guy who can show up in a secure way? These are usually things you learn from another person, either through observation, lived experience, being shaped by another, etc.

When you add in the high rates of rejection men face, it makes navigating dating and "figuring out" women even more difficult. I can see how it would be easier to slide into cognitive distortions to feel comfortable about repeated failures and confusion about one's experiences. It seems that PsycHacks has done a good job of providing a home for these struggling men - it is an echo chamber for their suffering, but also a community where people can feel they are not alone in their pain, and in a way can "fight back" without actually taking any action.

I agree with the suggestions for social skills training. If we're speaking in binary terms - I think training is needed on both sides, not just men. Again, speaking anecdotally, but I have often noticed the behaviors of women in my life–whether I see them on social media, in volunteering/companionship, friendship, or other personal interactions– that struggle with men. They may repeatedly engage in... questionable behaviors and ways of thinking... and ask why what they are doing is not working. Despite them all being different people and not knowing eachother, their problems seem to overlap and are similar, which highlights a need to recognize gender-specific patterns of behavior. Or perhaps the correct term is heteronormative relationship specific patterns of behavior..

Historically, we have "othered" the opposite gender - viewing eachother's function and existence on this Earth as different and separate. While modern dating and society has changed, that same problem of othering eachother still exists, it is just within our current context that pushes for equality and sameness between everyone. Gender roles no longer have harsh rules or a harsh line that you must follow, which has its benefits as people are able to do what works for them without as much stigma and shame. Plus, gender is no longer "both sides." The concept of gender has expanded beyond that, to include a spectrum of identities beyond just man or woman.

That being said, I think the push for equality in our society has unintentionally created another problem—it has almost closed the door to the common, individual needs and challenges that men and women may face in relationships. These unique differences still need to be recognized and understood, even as we strive for equality. Both men and women have their own unique struggles with the other, and those issues still need to be acknowledged and addressed somehow. And the presence of these problems, and not having a way to solve them, is likely why guys like Orion are doing really well on the internet..
 
This all reminds me of the issue finance influencers eventually run into. It takes very little time to burn through the basics that will generalize well to the majority of people. They eventually have to shift their content to attract people with broad essay-style videos or they start giving specific advice while saying they're not giving specific advice. Exotic cars also start showing up in videos. (Patrick Boyle is my favorite of the finance YouTubers.)

Any personally relevant advice when it comes to finances or relationships will likely need to be tailored to the individual client/small group of clients. If someone is able to take care of themselves financially, meets generally expected hygiene standards, and has decent emotional intelligence, it's unlikely passively consumed information will move the needle much.

I'm thinking of someone in my social circle. He meets or surpasses general expectations for a long-term partner. Good job, traditionally attractive, clean house, dresses well, etc. He ticks the boxes. He is charming and can attract a lot of women, but can't sustain a relationship for longer than a few months. He would not benefit from general advice anymore. If he became desperate to get to the next phase, he could easily fall into one of these ego-massaging grifts. A round of CBT would do wonders for him, but that's not my lane. I have my fingers crossed for him from afar.
 
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If your book is entitled "the value of others", and the only associated trait is sex, you're probably a fool.

"Hey, I learned from the collective experiences of thousands of professionals, who studied millions of people. But I don't see that I received any value from those individuals' contributions. And I use a degree granted by others, and a license granted by the millions of people in my state, but I don't see a value in their efforts. And even though I make a living off of others, the only value is sex. Ignore the fact that I am financially benefitting from my customers, not sex. In fact, sex isn't even the main factor I'm getting off of others, or even my main effort in life. Please ignore the fact that some overweight high school principal at a swingers' club is pulling in 100x more sexual partners than me. I'm the one to listen to, and I'm the one to get paid."
 
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It's really too bad boards don't have the motivation to do much in situations like this. I understand their focus is on reviewing individual competency, however it feels wrong to have such a prominent figure publicly share misleading information using the PsyD name and a legally protected title (i.e. 'psychologist') to spew their propaganda. It feels like more should be done.
I don't doubt motivation plays a role, but in many cases it is also just out of their legal purview. Also time/energy - keep in mind these are generally folks with day jobs who are effectively volunteers (or so wildly underpaid they might as well be). While I agree in principle it would be great to see boards taking action against folks like this, in practice I have mixed feelings. 1) While I dislike slippery slope arguments in general, this does raise questions about exactly where the line falls for things a board "police" with regards to public speech; and 2) Frankly, as bad as things like this are, I'm not sure I worry about it as much as I do about the mass of providers using wildly inappropriate/outdated practice techniques. By their nature, people like this are more "public" but I'm not sure what the bigger harm comes from. If we aren't going to censure providers for doing 5 years of psychoanalysis with a patient for OCD without ever even acknowledging the existence of exposure and response prevention, censuring something like this seems purely performative.
 
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I don't doubt motivation plays a role, but in many cases it is also just out of their legal purview. Also time/energy - keep in mind these are generally folks with day jobs who are effectively volunteers (or so wildly underpaid they might as well be). While I agree in principle it would be great to see boards taking action against folks like this, in practice I have mixed feelings. 1) While I dislike slippery slope arguments in general, this does raise questions about exactly where the line falls for things a board "police" with regards to public speech; and 2) Frankly, as bad as things like this are, I'm not sure I worry about it as much as I do about the mass of providers using wildly inappropriate/outdated practice techniques. By their nature, people like this are more "public" but I'm not sure what the bigger harm comes from. If we aren't going to censure providers for doing 5 years of psychoanalysis with a patient for OCD without ever even acknowledging the existence of exposure and response prevention, censuring something like this seems purely performative.

Yeah, if a board moved to try to take his license, the best case scenario is that they'd spend millions in court fighting the inevitable lawsuit. The most likely case is that they spend millions in court and he still keeps his license, and now he has a much bigger audience and more media requests than he can handle.
 
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100% agree with the sentiment of need for community and connectivity. The internet and online communities has gotten in the way of this for many who would be spending more time interacting IRL situations if they couldn’t fill their time gaming and streaming videos about how hard it is to meet people.
 
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I popped into that live for a few minutes. He was talking about how you should avoid dating people with personality disorders because they will always be unstable to date. Which led me to think, how can one talk so definitively about other people? Plus, many people with personality disorders go on to have good relationships with people, especially after they get treatment for their PD...
Lol get real, are you going to date someone with a personality disorder? Sure there are exceptions but on average, it's a losing bet and we all know it
 
I have seen very few people receive a legitimate personality disorder diagnosis. I have seen a lot of people diagnose someone with a personality disorder based on vibes.
 
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I hadn't heard of this guy. I just watched one of his videos. Seems like he holds red pill opinions. Most of us may not like him or agree with him, but I don't see how, for example, talking about "why successful men use escorts" is practicing outside the bounds of psychology. Is the issue that he is treating people online without proper informed consent, or in states he isn't licensed in?
 
I hadn't heard of this guy. I just watched one of his videos. Seems like he holds red pill opinions. Most of us may not like him or agree with him, but I don't see how, for example, talking about "why successful men use escorts" is practicing outside the bounds of psychology. Is the issue that he is treating people online without proper informed consent, or in states he isn't licensed in?

I think it's more that it his name makes it sound like he should be fighting hand to hand with Duncan Idaho on Arrakis, rather than bilking incels out of their videogames and Mountain Dew money.
 
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Generally speaking, boards are reluctant to act when a psychologist is making public statements, regardless of how insane. Their purview is largely over things you do when performing the acts of a psychologist. That isn't to say there aren't exceptions. Shouting from the rooftops that the purple space aliens living in your butt are secretly running the US government could certainly trigger an investigation into your competence, at the very least. Things like this unfortunately are generally not going to rise to that level (even if arguably more harmful?).

Agree with others that the school is likely also a factor here. From my perspective this person doesn't have a "real" doctorate.
This is what happens when you don't require a doctoral dissertation so you can charge students more and get more admissions, and then deem the resulting graduates "clinicians instead of researchers".
 
I think it's more that it his name makes it sound like he should be fighting hand to hand with Duncan Idaho on Arrakis, rather than bilking incels out of their videogames and Mountain Dew money.

I've read that Orion can be a dogwhistle name.
 
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