Ortho School Rankings

Discussion in 'Dental' started by akordz, May 2, 2004.

  1. akordz

    akordz New Member

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    Just wanted to get a little discussion about the top 10 Ortho programs in the country. Now, no one get mad if your favorite school isn't on someone's list...instead, why don't you post your top 10!
     
  2. imdaman

    imdaman Junior Member
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    Are u still dumb enough to care about rankings?
    Don't tell me you're a DDS/DMD candidate :smuggrin:
     
  3. ItsGavinC

    Dentist Moderator Emeritus 15+ Year Member

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    Vermont College of Polytechnic Automechanics and Fast-Food Studies ranks high on my list.
     
  4. aphistis

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    I'm thinking about applying to Lincoln Tech, myself.
     
  5. gryffindor

    Dentist 10+ Year Member

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    The top ortho program is the one you attend. Doesn't matter which one, you'll be an orthodontist coming out of any of the accredited programs in the USA. You'll only get out of the program what you put into it.

    duh.
    :rolleyes:
     
  6. HBomb

    HBomb Senior Member
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    ...and they say sarcasm is supposed to be difficult to project online.
     
  7. UNLV OMS GUNNABE

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    I hear Jacksonville is the BEST!!! :laugh:
     
  8. redicon1

    redicon1 Member
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    Uncalled for.
     
  9. akordz

    akordz New Member

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    hmm....ok, not exactly the responses i was looking for, but i was just curious. afterall, though i will be an ortho regardless of the program, i just wanted to know what programs are more respected in the field than others.

    thanks
     
  10. aphistis

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    OK, sarcasm aside, I'll try to give a straight answer. Just like with your DDS, your patients aren't going to know or be able to judge your ability based on where you pick up your MSD. Also just like dental school, you'll get the fundamental training you need to do the job no matter where you go, but most of the onus will be on you if you want to be one of the best. As competitive as ortho is to get into, you should keep all your options open.
     
  11. gryffindor

    Dentist 10+ Year Member

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    There are ortho programs out there that are thought of as the top dog programs in the field. However, unless you have supreme stats, you can't apply to ortho programs based on reputation alone. There really is no way to predict where you will get a chance to interview. For example, UNC is considered to be a "top" program, however, they only interview 18 students (out of 200+ applications) for like 5 spots. A UNC senior I met last year said 5 in his own class were part of that 18, so that basically means they'll invite 13 other valedictorians, salutatorians or academic superstars from unranked schools.

    So the best way to decide which ortho program (or any specialty for that matter) is the best is to apply everywhere you think you'd want to go, and see where you get interviews. At that point, you can make a more sound decision as to which program is better or worse b/c you actually might have a real chance at those programs, rather than trying to ask this broad & general question and choosing ortho programs based on a top 10 reputation alone.
     
  12. DrJeff

    DrJeff Senior Member
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    Any ortho program that isn't being gobbled up by "corporate ortho" companies such as OCA (Orthodontic centers of America) and thus turning their grads into "corpthodontists" as opposed to independent practitioners.

    My wife and I wrote a check this past weekend while at the American Association of Orthodontists(AAO) national meeting in Orlando to help keep the UCONN program not only fully independent, but to also help rennovate their clinic :clap: One of these days I'll learn to stop bringing our checkbook to alumni functions, although the program director does know how to hit the alumni up after the top notch alumni party at AAO each year.
     
  13. HBomb

    HBomb Senior Member
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    Bill, the minute you get serious on this board, everyone gets serious. Now everyone is saying the same thing...just in a cordial way. I think I like your sarcastic side better.
     
  14. straightsmile4u

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    There is no official ranking list for the best ortho programs. Some have a better reputation for quality of the program, faculty and research produced. I don't think it's fair to list those programs, just ask around.
    As for chosing where to apply, you should be thrilled to go anywhere! HOWEVER, some programs might not be the better for you than others. If you hate lab work, don't apply to ones that make you do all your own labwork and make your own retainers. If you hate research, don't apply to ones that require a master's.
    GOOD LUCK!
     
  15. gryffindor

    Dentist 10+ Year Member

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    Care to tell us why you put up such a random list of schools?
     
  16. akordz

    akordz New Member

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    thanks for putting up a list of schools that you think are good. has anyone heard anything good/bad about programs at: Boston, Tufts, UOP, Columbia, NYU, UPenn????? thanks again...
     
  17. gryffindor

    Dentist 10+ Year Member

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    Yup, the bad thing about all those PRIVATE schools is that they charge really high amounts of tuition for the 2 or 3 years it will take to complete the orthodontic program. Add to that the bad thing that the cost of living in all those cities is really high (Philly might be the cheapest on that list.) So I guess the good thing is that all those programs are in cool cities (well, in my definition of "cool"). Another potential good thing is that all those programs you listed are 2 year programs, except Columbia which just changed a 3 year program in 2003. However, some residents & educators feel that a 3 year program is a good thing, since you get to see your cases to completion which is a valuable learning experience as well.
     
  18. texas_dds

    texas_dds Senior Member
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    word of mouth says that UW (seattle) and UNC are the top, everything else is awesome just slightly less awesome
     
  19. osu is #1.
    obviously.
     
  20. jpollei

    jpollei Senior Member
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    Obviously this is an opinion-based response (as I'm at UNC), but in hearing the opinions of the some of those in ortho like Dr. Proffitt (the author of the ortho textbook you probably use as a DDS student), the schools I keep hearing over and over in no particular order are:

    Baylor, UNC, Ohio State, Washington, & Michigan

    I'm sure there are many others. These are based on the numbers of full-time faculty (ex. 9 at UNC), research funding/recognition (i.e. Dr. Proffitt is one of two individuals in dentistry to receive lifetime NIH funding), number of applicants vs acceptances, degree of resident involvement with predoctoral curriculum and teaching, DDS student opportunities to treat ortho patients (ex: I picked up one simple and one comprehensive case as a 2nd year), etc. Obviously it's a combination of all the above, plus many more criteria.

    That said, obviously it's an accomplishment to get into any ortho program (except maybe the new Jacksonville & Colorado programs funded by OEC...the jury's still out there). So unless you're a 4.0, 95+, all-everything candidate - as I know some of the residents here are - I imagine you should be happy with any accredited program that will teach you what you need to know with the philosophy you want to learn.
     
  21. jpollei

    jpollei Senior Member
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    Good call, DDSSlave. Just trying to help out, though previously I admitted the subjective nature of my response.
     
  22. unlv rocks

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    Soon, UNLV is going to have the best Ortho program in the nation. I'm still debating between ortho or OMS.
     
  23. gryffindor

    Dentist 10+ Year Member

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    Isn't UNLV's new ortho program going to be funded by the OEC? I thought I read on this board that after Jacksonville & Denver, Las Vegas was their next site.

    In that case, if you agree with the OEC's philosophy of orthodontic education, then yes, UNLV ortho can be #1.
     
  24. boboli_chef

    boboli_chef Member
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    What is the OEC, and their philosophy?
     
  25. texas_dds

    texas_dds Senior Member
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    please correct me if I am wrong:

    OEC is a private company started by an orthodontist who has taken it upon himself to increase the number of new orthodontists coming out of school by about 20% in the past couple years by funding these proprietary ortho residencies where the 'residents' sign a contract stating that they will work for OEC in a chain-type ortho clinic for 7 years, and if you break the contract you owe them 1 million dollars. ouch.
    the problem is accreditation - which jacksonville somehow got, though most think it was done dubiously and the decision is being reviewed. OEC is attractive to state legislatures, like colorado, where this company put out the cash for a whole new dental school
    my problem is conflict of interest. this is the height of corporate interference in education. also, from what I have heard, they are having trouble finding faculty for these OEC programs because most legit orthodontists wont have anything to do with it. The AAO is up in arms over this, so you can bet its members (ie faculty) have a bad taste in their mouths. this is bad if you have 15 residents at each of these programs (while most have about 3-6 spots) and there are no faculty... that is a red flag to me!
    my comment about "legit" orthodontists brings up another point; OEC is creating two tiers of orthodontics. people associated w/traditional residencies are not shy about scoffing at OEC, so I am sure OEC's graduates are going to be looked at as sub par, even if they are competent people. i say if you are going to bother with going through a residency, do a 'real' one because you dont want to have to explain yourself for the rest of your life!
    just my 5 cents
     
  26. jpollei

    jpollei Senior Member
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    Well said texas dds. That's pretty on from what I know as well.

    At the ADA conference for the new dentist last month, the ADA presidency and trustees expressed their concern about corporate involvement of groups like OEC in dentistry...the ADA has been careful not to come out and say they oppose or disapprove of them, but the ADA is definately not heralding these programs as wonderful, either. I tend to agree with texas dds sentiments that this might cause a tiering of orthodontists, whether justified or not. It would be somewhat akin to trying to operate a dental school without any clinical faculty...or part-timers at best. Kind of an unnerving thought. Also, another circulating thought is that unless Colorado, Jacksonville, etc is down the street from where you grew up or want to practice, those who attend these residencies are those who "couldn't get in anywhere else," although that in reality may be completely untrue.

    Technically, until the first classes graduate and such, we really won't know. If I decide to apply to an ortho residency, it would likely not be an OEC-based one. Heck, if you want to make a commitment of that nature & have to work for someone else, do a military residency. At least then you'd know the faculty and teaching standards are up to par based on years of present graduates.
     
  27. 46976

    46976 Junior Member

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    .
     
    #27 46976, Jul 17, 2004
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2010
  28. texas_dds

    texas_dds Senior Member
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    i doubt OEC graduates' treatment will be much cheaper BUT i am worried about oversaturated markets

    lets face it, OEC is marketing itself to sub-par ortho applicants sorta under the table - i have been hearing about it... scary!!!
    yet another reason to complete the masters thesis at a real residency!
     
  29. texas_dds

    texas_dds Senior Member
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    there is no dental school at the jacksonville site - just hygeine
    i imagine these programs will have a much different patient pool for their students w/o any surgery or pros cases being worked up w/other specialties.
    not a good plan for anyone who is serious about orthodontics and dentofacial orthopedics.... i hope all students who are tempted by this will just go a gpr/aegd and try again for something better next time!
     
  30. marmoreus

    marmoreus Junior Member
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    You guys are fairly well informed which is gratifiying to see. I am an ortho resident in a real program and I have friends who had classmates from dental who went to Jax Ortho. Two of these people were actually ranked in the lower half of their class and were known as jerks around school as well. There is no doubt that the residents at these OEC programs are the ones who couldn't get into a legit program.

    Ever since I heard of this OEC deal there is a phrase that keeps running through my brain: academic prostitution. I think that terms fits perfectly if you think about it.

    The other day I read a quote from the Dean at UNLV defending their decision based partly on the fact the he felt it would help students who otherwise couldn't afford it to do an ortho program. What a bunch of crap. Most of us pay for our education with loans and then we get a decent job and pay them back. These people don't want to come out and say they are doing it purely for the money, but there is no doubt this is the case. When you lower your standards and tarnish an institution and a profession in exchange for money I think you prostitute that which was entrusted to you by the profession and by society.

    The state gets money, the school gets money and Lazzarra gets money but everyone else gets screwed. Sounds like a worthy endeavor doesn't it?
     
  31. kato999

    kato999 Senior Member
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    if you are "under contract" from OEC don't you have to give around 30% of what you gross to the company? that really doesn't seem too lucrative to me. I guess i can see why those programs are generally considered the ones that people go to who can't get into a "real" residency.
     
  32. texas_dds

    texas_dds Senior Member
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    very interesting to read the official UNLV postition on this :mad:

    you know its the students who lose out, there are 2 groups:

    1) graduates of traditional programs - feel undermined in a way, like the value of their adherence to the established path is cheapened somehow. also, the squeeze in certain markets could be a problem. its already hard to start up or join a practice in san antonio, tx or even more popular, austin, tx, due to saturation. i am sure its happening in other places and will undoubtably increase due to OEC.
    2) OEC graduates - stigma. I have a lot of friends from undergrad that did DO degrees rather than MD - they always act like they have to explain or defend that fact, even though I know they worked their butts off in DO school... there is just this "2nd tier"-ness to it and that is exactly what OEC creates.

    the question becomes, will the patients know or care if they go to an OEC doctor or not? i am not sure. i really really hope that no OEC programs are going to give masters degrees - otherwise, there is going to be no distinction that would be obvious. Are OEC people eligible to take the AAO boards? What about phase 3 to become Board Certified?

    Well what I'm getting at is that i am obviously concerned about all this and wonder how in the world accreditation is done. I have talked w/some Endo professors that are worried something like this is down the pipeline for them.
     
  33. Col Sanders

    Col Sanders Senior Member
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    Funding for dental education has been a major problem lately everywhere. As vehimently opposed as many of us are to it, corporate funding is in our future and there is not much any of us can do about it unless we can pony up the money ourselves or convince taxpayers and legislators to do it for us. Its funny that Lazzara (the OEC guy) has said almost half of the current dental schools even some with ortho programs have contacted him seeking opportunities and that he has had to turn them down for now. So your school too may switch over. This may just be the tip of the iceburg as other corporations look to do the same thing at other schools and with other specialties.

    One of the main reasons I chose dentistry as a profession was to run my own business, be my own boss and have all the freedoms that come with that, it worries me that students would want to make someone else wealthy.
     
  34. texas_dds

    texas_dds Senior Member
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    youre right about corpodontics, but i dont hafta like it...
    invisalign is doing it too, donating 100 free cases (worth $2K+/case in fees collected by your dental school clinic) if they can come in and certify everyone to sell their product once they graduate. they have approached my school and I think we agreed that all juniors who take the ortho lab elective will do the invisalign course.
    i would like to ask the ortho residents what the prevailing thoughts are these days on invisalign? how does it change orthodontic practice - ie if general dentists are doing so many cases, is the specialist pt pool drying up?
    thanks!!
     
  35. tooth_sleuth

    tooth_sleuth Member
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    Is Colorado even an accredited program???? :confused:
     
  36. texas_dds

    texas_dds Senior Member
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    only jax is "accredited" right now (decision disputed by many groups)
    i bet colorado will be too, a $90 million brand spankin new dental school built 'for Colorado's underserved' will tip the political scale
    but i think its more likely that lazzaro (CEO of OEC) is gonna benefit big time - with swarms of poor souls working for him in ortho franchises - maybe they will have a drive thru.
     
  37. UNLV OMS GUNNABE

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    I'm so sick of people bagging on the oec thing. First of all I have absolutely no interest in ortho, but I have as of yet to hear some arguments that would make me hate the idea. So, are you all saying that these otho's will not be able to practice at the same level as a resident from another program? Come on, get real. How hard is it to really band up a kid. The people in the program are only interested in bread and butter ortho. They arn't interested in big complex cases involving surgery and more. They just want a big piece of the ortho pie and I say let them have it. All I hear about is how much the orthodontists complain here in vegas about how these residents won't be able to provide decent services, which is a bunch of garbage. They just don't want 12 new orthodontists a year in the city. I am very glad that our school has signed a deal with oec bc we get a brand new fatty building that will be able to house 3 or more residency programs. The debate over these programs will go on and on but the fact that UNLV has one does not say anything about the dental school itself. If I were interested in ortho and I couldn't get in anywhere else I would go there in a heartbeat. What is there to worry about? People looking down on me bc I went to "an OEC program," who cares. I would have gotten what I wanted and screw everyone else who has a problem with it. Until there is actually proof that residents from these programs consistently provide substandard care everyone should chill out.
     
  38. ItsGavinC

    Dentist Moderator Emeritus 15+ Year Member

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    And how do you know that? The funding is non-traditional, the matriculated students are non-traditional, and the curriculums are non-traditional. That doesn't mean they won't provide decent (or better!) services than more traditional programs, but it certainly leaves room for doubt until the program has proven itself. Which, it hasn't yet.
     
  39. ItsGavinC

    Dentist Moderator Emeritus 15+ Year Member

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    ... and I thought I might add that I have nothing against the OEC program. After reading the UNLV press release, it sounds like a fine partnership that will benefit both parties to some extent.
     
  40. UNLV OMS GUNNABE

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    That is exactly my point. You can't sit there and bag on the program before it has even started! It hasn't disproven itself yet either. You know they are going to do their best to crank out good ortho's bc otherwise the program will sink itself. They obviously have the resources ($$$) to be a cutting edge program. Maybe they will surprise everyone, maybe not, either way let's give them the benefit of the doubt.
     
  41. ItsGavinC

    Dentist Moderator Emeritus 15+ Year Member

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    Good call, and I agree with you.
     
  42. unlv rocks

    unlv rocks Membership Revoked
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    Please pull your panties out of your butt!
     
  43. texas_dds

    texas_dds Senior Member
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    give OEC a chance all you want
    i think its an embarrassment
    and to anyone applying to legit programs - do not let them know during interviews if you applied to any OEC places or you will be axed (info from last cycle)
     
  44. marmoreus

    marmoreus Junior Member
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    Of course you can "bag on it" before it even gets started because what's wrong with these programs is how they came into being and the basic way in which they operate. I expect they will graduate orthos with lesser skills--especially given what I have heard about Jax so far--but that's not really the point. Becoming a resident in one of these programs requires that you sell your soul to a for-profit corporation. What is defensible about that?

    Also, I wonder if unlv oms wannabe dude is serious when he says they just want to do "bread and butter" ortho, not surgical cases etc. If you were serious about that then you obviously don't have a clue. Specialty programs exist to train specialists. When an OEC grad gets referred a case that is beyond his training and capabilities is he supposed to say "I think you might need to see a specialist for this one?"

    In the end it is all about money and greed tarnishing academic and professional reputations. I have no respect for UNLV or CU or Jax. I think one reason these programs went for this deal is that none of them have a reputation to protect or alumni willing to step up.
     
  45. DDSSlave

    DDSSlave Senior Member
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    http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/adanews/adanewsarticle.asp?articleid=918

    "Last year, the American Association of Orthodontists filed formal complaints with the U.S. Department of Education and CDA asserting that, among other things, the CDA erred when it granted preliminary provisional approval to Jacksonville.

    Accrediting JU was not in compliance with Standard 1-1, said the AAO complaint..."

    Defend OEC all you want, but if the AAO believes this ortho program should not be accredited, that gives me reason enough not to give JU et al the benefit of the doubt.

    I agree with everything that marmoreus and texas_dds said. The intimate involvement of for-profit corporations goes against everything higher education has stood for since the foundation of Greek schools thousands of years ago.
     
  46. jpollei

    jpollei Senior Member
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    Couldn't agree more with texas_dds, mamoreus and ddsslave.

    If anyone, the AAO would know if orthodontics as a whole will be benefitted by OEC. OEC opening programs isn't resulting in jealousy or fear of competition from existing programs or any supposed "old boys club". The AAO and orthodontists are above that. They want to maintain the integrity of the profession. This isn't an affront on OEC applicants (necessarily), just the programs. 20 years from now if they've proved their worth and helped to maintain the integrity of orthodontics, I'll be the first to admit they have succeeded.

    Not to specifically point fingers at any other profession, but you would never have seen optometrists or pharmacists in Walmart 50 years ago...until private business got involved. I'd hate to see all of us practicing out of the front end of a department store or the likes come midway through my career. I know it may sound like a long stretch, but it did happen to others. Ask any sample of those professionals and they'll tell you it's true, though obviously not all are in that situation. As a whole, though, they wish big business had never gotten involved and made private practice so difficult. What's to say if they'd stop with ortho? Greed is infectious...and dentistry would be a very appealing, profitable next step.

    I know lots of great pharmacists and optometrists. Dentistry has learned a lot of good lessons from mistakes our counterparts in medicine have made. Let's be wise enough to learn form these other professions as well. Hopefully other businesses don't try to begin wholesale endodontic, periodontal or oral surgeon programs either. Any radical involvement of big business in any residency, not just ortho, will eventually effect dentistry.
     
  47. texas_dds

    texas_dds Senior Member
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    bread and butter ortho?????
    if thats what you want, take a 3 day CE course in the bahamas
    if thats not enough, some of the better AEGDs offer a bit more

    so now we are going to have have
    john smith, dds, 'bread and butter' orthodontist
    and jane doe, dds, real orthodontist?
    that is ridiculous!
    an analogy:
    i think im gonna go to "i only do central incisors" endo school but still call myself an endodontist - do you see how A) that is a slap in the face to real endodontists? and B) the patients will have no clue what tier of specialist they happened to be sent to.
     
  48. north2southOMFS

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    Hey UNLV OMS Wannabe,

    Just out of curiosity, if you match at an OMFS program are you going to tell your chair that a "bread and butter" oral surgery training (which is slickin' 3rds...face it) is all you need to become an oral surgeon? Would you send your kids to an oral surgeon who went to a program that only taught the "bread and butter" of oral surgery. I think you pretty damn well would like a well trained full scope Oral surgeon....so it really would upset me that you would not expect the same from our coleagues in the wire bending business. Just remember, you are going to have to work with these "piece of the pie"...."bread and butter".....orthodontists with your orthognathic cases some day,(and trust me orthodontists don't refer to other orthodontists because its a surgery case).....hey, its better to work with one who knows what is going on than one who doesn't. So i hate to say it, but UNLV has "whorred" itself out for money to those price undercutting losers....you'll understand that someday when your out and the periodontists are starting to take out your wisdom teeth. :)
     
  49. UNLV OMS GUNNABE

    10+ Year Member

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    Well, everyone has taken my b&b comment to mean much more than intended. So, instead of trying to explain and draw out this thread any more I will RESCIND my "bread & butter" comment. BTW, going through a perio residency and then being able to do oral surgery sounds good to me.....it would save me a bunch of years :laugh: jk
     
  50. DrJeff

    DrJeff Senior Member
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    There is a reason why there is a higher turn over of folks practing "corpthodontics" verses independent orthodontists :confused: :eek:

    It's quite similar to why companies like Aspen Dental and Gentle Dental have a high turn over rate at their practices. Many of us in this profession have worked many long and hard years to get to where we are, and we're often quite a bunch of stong, independent thinkers. Being "forced" to practice under the constraints of corporate policies(and there are more than you might think) doesn't sit well with alot of folks.

    Well these types of companies have some sort of place, you might want to be carefull before you run to them with open arms, since they just might become the first step to a managed care take over of our great, independent profession. BTW, if you think that managed care as a whole is a great thing, ask an MD/DO whose in their 40's+ about "the good 'ol days" vs. today and see what they think :eek: :wow:
     

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