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Orthodontic: training in the UK, getting a PhD

reccos

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    Has anyone gone from the US for orthodontic training in the UK? I'm wondering what options there are for people who can't get into ortho in the US?

    Also, what about those combined specialty/Phd programs? What do they really look for in their candidates?
     

    jpollei

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      reccos said:
      Has anyone gone from the US for orthodontic training in the UK? I'm wondering what options there are for people who can't get into ortho in the US?

      Also, what about those combined specialty/Phd programs? What do they really look for in their candidates?

      Our ortho department chair at UNC is from the UK (trained there BDS, ortho, etc.). She has told me that ortho training in the UK is actually ahead of what is being done here in the US on many fronts (in large part due to FDA and other regulation groups' compliance rules here).
      The only thing you'd need to check on is if UK ortho training would preclude becoming ABO certified (if that was important to you).
      I can't speak much to your second question...
       

      molarama

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        jpollei said:
        Our ortho department chair at UNC is from the UK (trained there BDS, ortho, etc.). She has told me that ortho training in the UK is actually ahead of what is being done here in the US on many fronts (in large part due to FDA and other regulation groups' compliance rules here).
        The only thing you'd need to check on is if UK ortho training would preclude becoming ABO certified (if that was important to you).
        I can't speak much to your second question...


        Very interesting question - something that's been simmering in the back of my mind for a while...since i'm in the 2 interview invites only group:) I've searched websites for about 4-5 schools and they do have seats for non-EU applicants. The major turn off for me is the price for internationals. Add that to cost of living out there and it's too much debt than it's worth in my opinion. Regarding training, i've heard that it's a little behind the US and Canada. Although Mike Mars in Manchester or Birmingham runs a top of the line cleft palate clinic. Also remember that there are different tracks (i.e. clinical ortho vs. research ortho). If anyone out there knows about scholarships etc I'd love to hear from them.
         
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        Jediwendell

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          molarama said:
          The major turn off for me is the price for internationals. Add that to cost of living out there and it's too much debt than it's worth in my opinion.

          Don't forget that it will be more dificult to get loans there. I don't think the UK has student loan programs, or if they do it isn't as good of a deal. That may turn a lot of folks off............unless you are already rich. :D
           

          Surfs up

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            Shouldn't the question be if you would be recognized as an orthodontic specialist here in the US after you complete a British residency program? The last I checked, you would need to complete an ADA accredited program in the US, Canada, or Puerto Rico to advertise as an orthodontic specialist in the States, so I would look more into it first. You don't need to be ABO board certified to practice orthodontics as a specialty in the US by the way.
             

            BlueToothHunter

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              Surfs up said:
              Shouldn't the question be if you would be recognized as an orthodontic specialist here in the US after you complete a British residency program? The last I checked, you would need to complete an ADA accredited program in the US, Canada, or Puerto Rico to advertise as an orthodontic specialist in the States, so I would look more into it first. You don't need to be ABO board certified to practice orthodontics as a specialty in the US by the way.
              The OP wanted to know if he/she could apply to a UK orthodontic program as a US dental graduate and then return to the US. The two have different pathways. If you want to obtain board eligible/board certified equivalent status in the UK, the least you need to achieve across the Pond is to obtain the FDS in Orthodontics (which is after MFDS and M.Orth).
               

              reccos

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                BlueToothHunter said:
                The OP wanted to know if he/she could apply to a UK orthodontic program as a US dental graduate and then return to the US. The two have different pathways. If you want to obtain board eligible/board certified equivalent status in the UK, the least you need to achieve across the Pond is to obtain the FDS in Orthodontics (which is after MFDS and M.Orth).


                Wha about orthodontic training wiht a combined phD, is there any benifit to applying to such programs? Has anyone here thought about applyign to a combined specialist/Phd program?

                Also, the reason I brough up the UK is that you might avoid a lot of the local compeition when applying as an international grad. Just look around in our schools, so many grad specialist programs are filled with foreign grads whom I think wouldn't get in if they applied as part of th elocal pool.
                 

                BlueToothHunter

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                  There is no easy way into orthodontics. The UK system is also equally competitive as it is here. It's a little insensitive to think that the foreign grads are being treated with kid gloves compared to the local US grads. The admissions policy works the same for both groups, and without any bias.

                  Bottom line is, if you think the foreign grads got in just because they were foreign grad, then you are sadly mistaken. It is actually much harder to apply as a non-local applicant simply because no-one knows anything about you.

                  So if you applied to the UK orthodontic programs as an international student, you would only be considered if you satisfied their requirements such as MFDS, research, house surgeon posts, vocational training etc. Oh, and you also need to show them that you have enough cash asset to apply for your student visa.

                  PS. PhD in orthdontics? That's okay if you want to stay in the academics. The PhD in the UK is very different from the US PhD system. I don't know the details. But there is no PhD in "orthodontics". You would have to read basic or clinical biomedical science subject and perform research in the field of orthodontic science, may take you 5 or 6 years. But you won't necessarily do clinical ortho training and obtain your specialist status. You will be a research scientist, not a specialist clinician, should you do a PhD in the UK. Now, in the US, there are some programs designed to let you train in both PhD and ortho specialty. But across the Pond, none (last time I checked was last week!).
                   

                  jpollei

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                    BlueToothHunter said:
                    There is no easy way into orthodontics. The UK system is also equally competitive as it is here. It's a little insensitive to think that the foreign grads are being treated with kid gloves compared to the local US grads. The admissions policy works the same for both groups, and without any bias.

                    Bottom line is, if you think the foreign grads got in just because they were foreign grad, then you are sadly mistaken. It is actually much harder to apply as a non-local applicant simply because no-one knows anything about you.

                    So if you applied to the UK orthodontic programs as an international student, you would only be considered if you satisfied their requirements such as MFDS, research, house surgeon posts, vocational training etc. Oh, and you also need to show them that you have enough cash asset to apply for your student visa.

                    PS. PhD in orthdontics? That's okay if you want to stay in the academics. The PhD in the UK is very different from the US PhD system. I don't know the details. But there is no PhD in "orthodontics". You would have to read basic or clinical biomedical science subject and perform research in the field of orthodontic science, may take you 5 or 6 years. But you won't necessarily do clinical ortho training and obtain your specialist status. You will be a research scientist, not a specialist clinician, should you do a PhD in the UK. Now, in the US, there are some programs designed to let you train in both PhD and ortho specialty. But across the Pond, none (last time I checked was last week!).

                    Good post. We have one ortho/PhD seat that began this last fall here at UNC. I know a few other programs do them from time to time (don't know all the details: funding, time, research depth, etc). But for the most part, as said above the PhD won't buy much...unless you want to be the next Proffit. :)
                     

                    molarama

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                      Dr.Millisevert said:


                      I guess every ortho association uses that kid on their website!!!!hope she's getting some royalties.
                      from what I understand, in US/Canada you can obtain ortho specialty status and PhD combined in about 6 yrs. UCONN accepts one every couple years from what I heard. Funding is there, from NIDCR especially, with the shortage of faculty crisis looming, all sorts of training perks are available. So you could do research/teach part-time yet still practice clinical orthodontics pt as well. Depends on your interests.
                       

                      Dr.Millisevert

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                        jpollei said:
                        Our ortho department chair at UNC is from the UK (trained there BDS, ortho, etc.). She has told me that ortho training in the UK is actually ahead of what is being done here in the US on many fronts (in large part due to FDA and other regulation groups' compliance rules here).
                        The only thing you'd need to check on is if UK ortho training would preclude becoming ABO certified (if that was important to you).
                        I can't speak much to your second question...

                        I think the ortho training programme here at Sydney would be acceptable for american grads. Website states, " syllabus meets the requirements of the American Board of Orthodontists". You can check it out.

                        http://www.chs.usyd.edu.au/PG/FMPro...at=Coursework_Detail.html&DegreeID=c071&-Find


                        http://www.dentistry.usyd.edu.au/
                         

                        jpollei

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                          Dr.Millisevert said:
                          I think the ortho training programme here at Sydney would be acceptable for american grads. Website states, " syllabus meets the requirements of the American Board of Orthodontists". You can check it out.

                          http://www.chs.usyd.edu.au/PG/FMPro...at=Coursework_Detail.html&DegreeID=c071&-Find


                          http://www.dentistry.usyd.edu.au/

                          Could be...we had an Australian ortho grad here in dental school a couple years ago (he'd finished dental and ortho school down under, but wanted to practice ortho here so he had to retake the 3rd and 4th years of dental school to get a license). Remember, ABO and licensure anren't the same thing. You also need to check with each state board where you'd like to practice just to ensure there are no hang-ups.
                           

                          jpollei

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                            Dr.Millisevert said:
                            I think the ortho training programme here at Sydney would be acceptable for american grads. Website states, " syllabus meets the requirements of the American Board of Orthodontists". You can check it out.

                            http://www.chs.usyd.edu.au/PG/FMPro...at=Coursework_Detail.html&DegreeID=c071&-Find


                            http://www.dentistry.usyd.edu.au/

                            Could be...we had an Australian ortho grad here in dental school a couple years ago (he'd finished dental and ortho school down under, but wanted to practice ortho here so he had to retake the 3rd and 4th years of dental school to get a license). Remember, ABO and licensure aren't the same thing. You also need to check with each state board where you'd like to practice just to ensure there are no hang-ups.
                             

                            Surfs up

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                              jpollei said:
                              Could be...we had an Australian ortho grad here in dental school a couple years ago (he'd finished dental and ortho school down under, but wanted to practice ortho here so he had to retake the 3rd and 4th years of dental school to get a license). Remember, ABO and licensure aren't the same thing. You also need to check with each state board where you'd like to practice just to ensure there are no hang-ups.

                              My question is if you are able to advertise yourself as an "orthodontist" here in the US even if you completed your ortho certificate overseas and obtained the requirements for a US dental license here. The AAO website states that you must complete an ADA-accredited ortho program here in the US, Canada, or Puerto Rico to call yourself that. Here is the AAO's definition:

                              All orthodontists are dentists, but only about 6 percent of dentists are orthodontists. An orthodontist is a specialist in the diagnosis, prevention and treatment of dental and facial irregularities. Orthodontists must first attend college, and then complete a four-year dental graduate program at a university dental school or other institution accredited by the Commission on Dental Accreditation of the American Dental Association (ADA). They must then successfully complete an additional two- to three-year residency program of advanced education in orthodontics. This residency program must also be accredited by the ADA. Through this training, the orthodontist learns the skills required to manage tooth movement (orthodontics) and guide facial development (dentofacial orthopedics).

                              Only dentists who have successfully completed this advanced specialty education may call themselves orthodontists.
                               

                              jpollei

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                                Surfs up said:
                                My question is if you are able to advertise yourself as an "orthodontist" here in the US even if you completed your ortho certificate overseas and obtained the requirements for a US dental license here. The AAO website states that you must complete an ADA-accredited ortho program here in the US, Canada, or Puerto Rico to call yourself that. Here is the AAO's definition:

                                All orthodontists are dentists, but only about 6 percent of dentists are orthodontists. An orthodontist is a specialist in the diagnosis, prevention and treatment of dental and facial irregularities. Orthodontists must first attend college, and then complete a four-year dental graduate program at a university dental school or other institution accredited by the Commission on Dental Accreditation of the American Dental Association (ADA). They must then successfully complete an additional two- to three-year residency program of advanced education in orthodontics. This residency program must also be accredited by the ADA. Through this training, the orthodontist learns the skills required to manage tooth movement (orthodontics) and guide facial development (dentofacial orthopedics).

                                Only dentists who have successfully completed this advanced specialty education may call themselves orthodontists.

                                Good point. I don't know how this individual is advertising his practice, if the program he attended has some sort of reciprocal ADA accredition (even though CODA really runs the accredidation process), or if he did subsequent work to become accredited.
                                From what you quoted above, it appears one could only advertise being an "orthodontist" if that statement was adhered to.
                                 
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