Orthodontist best job in healthcare?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.

helico

New Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
What do you think?

Taken from:
http://www.engineersalary.com/overpaid.asp

4) Orthodontists
For a 35-hour week, orthodontists earn a median $369,000 a year, according to the Journal of Clinical Orthodontics. General dentists earn less than half as much working 47 hours a week on average. The difference in their training isn't like that of a transplant surgeon vs. a family practice doctor. It's an extra two years, and a rewarding investment if you're among the chosen. Dental schools have been criticized for keeping orthodontists in artificially short supply - to keep their incomes high.
This isn't neurosurgery. Orthodontists manipulate teeth -- and often leave much of the adjustment to low paid assistants (whose work they bill for). What makes their windfall earnings egregious is that they stick parents with most of the inflated bill, since orthodontia insurance benefits cover nowhere near as large a percentage as for general dentistry.
This is the same as having a low paid first year associate in a law firm handle your case (behind the scenes, completely unknown to the you), and the partner bills out the hours at his/her much higher hourly rate, which can typically run $100 to $300 more per hour. Your $1500 fee for legal work becomes a bill for $5000. It happens everyday.

Members don't see this ad.
 
What do you think?

Taken from:
http://www.engineersalary.com/overpaid.asp

4) Orthodontists
For a 35-hour week, orthodontists earn a median $369,000 a year, according to the Journal of Clinical Orthodontics. General dentists earn less than half as much working 47 hours a week on average. The difference in their training isn't like that of a transplant surgeon vs. a family practice doctor. It's an extra two years, and a rewarding investment if you're among the chosen. Dental schools have been criticized for keeping orthodontists in artificially short supply - to keep their incomes high.
This isn't neurosurgery. Orthodontists manipulate teeth -- and often leave much of the adjustment to low paid assistants (whose work they bill for). What makes their windfall earnings egregious is that they stick parents with most of the inflated bill, since orthodontia insurance benefits cover nowhere near as large a percentage as for general dentistry.
This is the same as having a low paid first year associate in a law firm handle your case (behind the scenes, completely unknown to the you), and the partner bills out the hours at his/her much higher hourly rate, which can typically run $100 to $300 more per hour. Your $1500 fee for legal work becomes a bill for $5000. It happens everyday.

Whoever wrote this should have become an orthodontist instead of a mediocre internet journalist.

Jealous, anti-free market bastard.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
What do you think?

Taken from:
http://www.engineersalary.com/overpaid.asp

4) Orthodontists
For a 35-hour week, orthodontists earn a median $369,000 a year, according to the Journal of Clinical Orthodontics. General dentists earn less than half as much working 47 hours a week on average. The difference in their training isn't like that of a transplant surgeon vs. a family practice doctor. It's an extra two years, and a rewarding investment if you're among the chosen. Dental schools have been criticized for keeping orthodontists in artificially short supply - to keep their incomes high.
This isn't neurosurgery. Orthodontists manipulate teeth -- and often leave much of the adjustment to low paid assistants (whose work they bill for). What makes their windfall earnings egregious is that they stick parents with most of the inflated bill, since orthodontia insurance benefits cover nowhere near as large a percentage as for general dentistry.
This is the same as having a low paid first year associate in a law firm handle your case (behind the scenes, completely unknown to the you), and the partner bills out the hours at his/her much higher hourly rate, which can typically run $100 to $300 more per hour. Your $1500 fee for legal work becomes a bill for $5000. It happens everyday.

Most of ortho is elective/cosmetic. If you don't want to pay, don't get it. If you think orthodontists make too much money, don't send your kids to the orthodontists. People obviously value the product that an orthodontists produces because those orthodontists are all busy and they charge and COLLECT alot for their services. The biggest difference between an orthodontist and a lawyer is that no one wants a lawyer, they don't believe in them. They are a necessary evil of todays letigious society that leaves both parties crying and the lawyers/law firms rich. Senator John Edwards is a prime example of how crooked a lawyer can be. Read his career stats. It is enough to make you sick to your stomach. No orthodontists in the entire country has such a shady past and dishonest way of making (stealing) money from people who really earn it....
 
Most of ortho is elective/cosmetic. If you don't want to pay, don't get it. If you think orthodontists make too much money, don't send your kids to the orthodontists. People obviously value the product that an orthodontists produces because those orthodontists are all busy and they charge and COLLECT alot for their services. The biggest difference between an orthodontist and a lawyer is that no one wants a lawyer, they don't believe in them. They are a necessary evil of todays letigious society that leaves both parties crying and the lawyers/law firms rich. Senator John Edwards is a prime example of how crooked a lawyer can be. Read his career stats. It is enough to make you sick to your stomach. No orthodontists in the entire country has such a shady past and dishonest way of making (stealing) money from people who really earn it....

Whoa....calm down. Nobody is attacking ortho. All the article is saying is that orthos work less than others for their money. There is no shame in that. Most people would trade jobs with an orthodontist any day. Relax, it is nothing more than an interesting internet read (and if you want to become an ortho, take it as a compliment, you have to be pretty talented to work so little for so much). :D

Also, a lot of ortho is cosmetic, but a lot of it is very functional and in some cases needed. So before you attack lawyers for what they do, make sure that you aren't maybe sticking it to your patients a little by charging them thousands of dollars for a case that your assistant will do 90% of the work on. So, does that mean you should give your patient a 90% discount? Lawyers screw people, but so do physicians, dentists, ceo's, etc. So, you may screw people over a little less, or justify your screwing by saying that it is all elective, but screwing you are doing nevertheless.
 
Whoa....calm down. Nobody is attacking ortho. All the article is saying is that orthos work less than others for their money. There is no shame in that. Most people would trade jobs with an orthodontist any day. Relax, it is nothing more than an interesting internet read (and if you want to become an ortho, take it as a compliment, you have to be pretty talented to work so little for so much). :D

Also, a lot of ortho is cosmetic, but a lot of it is very functional and in some cases needed. So before you attack lawyers for what they do, make sure that you aren't maybe sticking it to your patients a little by charging them thousands of dollars for a case that your assistant will do 90% of the work on. So, does that mean you should give your patient a 90% discount? Lawyers screw people, but so do physicians, dentists, ceo's, etc. So, you may screw people over a little less, or justify your screwing by saying that it is all elective, but screwing you are doing nevertheless.

90% of the "physical work" may be done by the assistants... BUT....

100% of the training/treatment planning/management of complications falls on the Orthodontists' shoulders. They are responsible phyiscally, ethically, and legally for their patients. And they also do no bill seperately for their assistants. If they did, under what grounds could they do that? The assitants are PA's, they are not Hygienists... they work soley under the supervision and direction of the orthodontist.
 
90% of the "physical work" may be done by the assistants... BUT....

100% of the training/treatment planning/management of complications falls on the Orthodontists' shoulders. They are responsible phyiscally, ethically, and legally for their patients. And they also do no bill seperately for their assistants. If they did, under what grounds could they do that? The assitants are PA's, they are not Hygienists... they work soley under the supervision and direction of the orthodontist.

My point is that lawyers, physicians, orthodontists, etc can all give the same excuses as to why they charge so much for their procedures. I don't see how one profession can rip on another's way of billing when they are all doing the same thing. Don't hold yourself above another profession just because your's is more glamerous, or because the media doesn't point out the bad things your profession does. We will all make a lot of money. We will all charge a lot of money for the work we do. So, we will all be screwing over our patients in a sense. Do you think orthodontics would be any less effective at $100 per patient as it is for $1000? No, the principles and techniques will work the same. Now, the technician might not be as skilled at $100, but the science is still the same.

90% of a lawyer's physical work may be done by paralegals and new graduates, but 100% of the training/treatment planning/management of complications falls on the Laywer's shoulders. They are responsible phyiscally, ethically, and legally for their patients. And they also do not bill seperately for their paralegals. They work soley under the supervision and direction of the lawyer.

Point: We are all in the same boat. :)
 
Ortho is definitely a great profession, but I don't think it's as easy as people make it out to be. Sure, they aren't working manually on patients, but they do often see 80 patients per day. That's a stressful pace no matter what you're doing. I was talking to a 3rd year ortho resident the other day and he said the current 55-60 year old orthodontists out there aren't selling their practices. It's very hard to break into a saturated market rather than work as an associate. Associates get paid $600-800 per day in some major cities.

I used to think ortho grads came out making $400K easy. It doesn't appear to be that way.

Now if you want to talk about overpaid...there's always endo...hehehe, kidding. It's a capitalist society! Income is not equal to how hard you work, how much education you have, how bright you are, or how much you perceive you deserve it.
 
Best job in healthcare is very subjective. To some, working 32 hours/week and making 350K is ideal. Others may rather work 60+ hours a week as a neurosurgeon and make 1.5 million.
 
Best job in healthcare is very subjective. To some, working 32 hours/week and making 350K is ideal. Other may rather work 60+ hours a week as a neurosurgeon and make 1.5 million.

The only problem then is finding the time to actually spend some of those millions.

:D
 
So before you attack lawyers for what they do, make sure that you aren't maybe sticking it to your patients a little by charging them thousands of dollars for a case that your assistant will do 90% of the work on.

If a lawyers paralegals did 90 percent of the case, and i only won because of the 10 percent the good lawyer did. Wouldn't it be worth every penny?


By the way. Don't ever try and compare the medical profession to the snakes, slugs, sleazbag law profession. The only thing the law profession has done in this country is help bring it down.

I do however agree with him that engineers are underpaid, since they usually invent most products that make companies rich, rich, rich.....
 
If a lawyers paralegals did 90 percent of the case, and i only won because of the 10 percent the good lawyer did. Wouldn't it be worth every penny?


By the way. Don't ever try and compare the medical profession to the snakes, slugs, sleazbag law profession. The only thing the law profession has done in this country is help bring it down.

I do however agree with him that engineers are underpaid, since they usually invent most products that make companies rich, rich, rich.....

If there weren't any lawyers to protect you, you would have no rights in this country. The law is what protects the innocent. By saying:

"The only thing the law profession has done in this country is help bring it down."

The only thing you are doing is making yourself look stupid.

There are just as many snakes, slugs, and sleazebags in medicine as there is in law. If there weren't malpractice lawsuits wouldn't be so high. Sleazebag doctors screw their patients over and then get mad when their patients sue them to get the treatment they deserved in the first place.

All I am saying is don't fall into stereotyping other professions when yours is just as bad/good as the others.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
All I am saying is don't fall into stereotyping other professions when yours is just as bad/good as the others.

Please tell me you are mainlining heroin. . . Or that you are at least smoking some of your mama's crack. . .

Are you seriously saying that dentistry/orthodontics/medicine are "just as bad" as other professions? So in your amazing calculus of relative worth to society, an Orthodontist = Physician = Used Car Salesman = Mass Tort Attorney = Yo Mama's Crack Dealer = Black Market Stolen Gun Fence = Hurricane Katrina Insurance Adjuster = ???

Do you really think that there is no difference in the importance of these occupations to Society? Or to use your own words, do you think they all "Screw People over the Same"?

Come on ButterNuts, Get back on the Methadone.
 
.

I do however agree with him that engineers are underpaid, since they usually invent most products that make companies rich, rich, rich.....

and the medical devices that have helped improved medicine/dentistry
 
What do you think?

Taken from:
http://www.engineersalary.com/overpaid.asp

4) Orthodontists
For a 35-hour week, orthodontists earn a median $369,000 a year, according to the Journal of Clinical Orthodontics. General dentists earn less than half as much working 47 hours a week on average. The difference in their training isn't like that of a transplant surgeon vs. a family practice doctor. It's an extra two years, and a rewarding investment if you're among the chosen. Dental schools have been criticized for keeping orthodontists in artificially short supply - to keep their incomes high.
This isn't neurosurgery. Orthodontists manipulate teeth -- and often leave much of the adjustment to low paid assistants (whose work they bill for). What makes their windfall earnings egregious is that they stick parents with most of the inflated bill, since orthodontia insurance benefits cover nowhere near as large a percentage as for general dentistry.
This is the same as having a low paid first year associate in a law firm handle your case (behind the scenes, completely unknown to the you), and the partner bills out the hours at his/her much higher hourly rate, which can typically run $100 to $300 more per hour. Your $1500 fee for legal work becomes a bill for $5000. It happens everyday.

Actually anyone who owns a business and has employees does the same thing that orthodontists do. Dentists employee RDA's that often do several of the tasks that the dentist would otherwise have to do. My brother-in-law worked for years at a large law firm that defended Dr.'s in malpractice suites and the big partners employ paralegals and associates to do most of the work. Anytime anyone makes a profit for something an employee did then that business owner is doing the exact same thing that the writer of that article accuses orthodontists of doing. By the way I thought that it was funny that the article doesn't include engineers on his list. I have four family members that are engineers. My old man was a chemical engineer, I have a brother that is a mechanical engineer and I have two brother-in-laws that are structural engineers. They have people working for them too. The structural engineers might spend 20 minutes to an hour crunching the numbers for a house and then they bill out 2000 grand for it. Hey and guess what? They only had to go to school for four years before they started working.
 
"The only thing the law profession has done in this country is help bring it down."

The only thing you are doing is making yourself look stupid.


Wow. Very witty comeback. You would make one $hitty lawyer, guess you chose the wrong profession.
 
If there weren't any lawyers to protect you, you would have no rights in this country. The law is what protects the innocent.

Actually genius, the bill of rights protects my rights. Lawyers (and judges...who are mostly lawyers) do their best to try and re-interpret the law to make it convenient for their cases and personal agendas.

To give an example.......I don't recall where in the constitution it states that idiots who spill hot coffee on themselves from McDonalds are entitled millions of dollars in due compensation.


(For a judicial example please see supreme court justice Darth Vader Ginsburg's record.)


You see. Shady city.
 
I quit my career as an attorney because I hated the environment and for many of the reasons mentioned here, but it always pains me to see people on this board acting no different than many of my former colleagues (pure arrogance). To summarily call everyone in the profession snakes and sleazeballs insults the many good lawyers who do fight for people's rights and work to make the world a better place.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this post either way, but really, the constitution is just a piece of paper that means nothing unless there is a means to enforce it. If you got rid of the justice system, you wouldn't have any rights because you wouldn't have a vehicle to make sure they were preserved. Lawyers are a necessary evil that do serve an important function, and there are many lawyers out there who are better people than some I know in the medical profession (overheard a first year resident at a bar the other night say "who the hell are you, I'm a doctor"), you just have to look a little harder.
 
I quit my career as an attorney because I hated the environment and for many of the reasons mentioned here, but it always pains me to see people on this board acting no different than many of my former colleagues (pure arrogance). To summarily call everyone in the profession snakes and sleazeballs insults the many good lawyers who do fight for people's rights and work to make the world a better place.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this post either way, but really, the constitution is just a piece of paper that means nothing unless there is a means to enforce it. If you got rid of the justice system, you wouldn't have any rights because you wouldn't have a vehicle to make sure they were preserved. Lawyers are a necessary evil that do serve an important function, and there are many lawyers out there who are better people than some I know in the medical profession (overheard a first year resident at a bar the other night say "who the hell are you, I'm a doctor"), you just have to look a little harder.


Finally, an intelligent response. Thank you.
 
Thanks. I just hate it when all people see in law are the frivolous lawsuits and sleazy defense attorneys. Take for instance, the following three scenarios:

1. Your daughter is sexually molested by your neighbor
2. Your office manager embezzles $500,000 from your dental office
3. You are arrested and jailed for a murder you did not commit

I don't think anyone would argue that these are frivolous examples, but one would be hard pressed to find a reasonable solution to them that didn't involve a lawyer.
 
One would be hard pressed to find a reasonable solution to them that didn't involve a lawyer.

1. Molest your neighbor's wife.
2. Molest your office manager until she returns the money.
3. Molest..oh wait no...Flee the country.
 
Thanks. I just hate it when all people see in law are the frivolous lawsuits and sleazy defense attorneys.

Unfortunately, you can't really blame people for seeing what's right in front of them on a million daytime TV ads, another million phone books, and still another million news pieces.
 
Thanks. I just hate it when all people see in law are the frivolous lawsuits and sleazy defense attorneys. Take for instance, the following three scenarios:

1. Your daughter is sexually molested by your neighbor
2. Your office manager embezzles $500,000 from your dental office
3. You are arrested and jailed for a murder you did not commit

I don't think anyone would argue that these are frivolous examples, but one would be hard pressed to find a reasonable solution to them that didn't involve a lawyer.

Are these the examples they told you to bring out in your ethics class when people question the complete loss of morality in the law profession?

I support your above examples, and i doubt you'd find anyone who wouldn't.
I also realize that it is only a certain percentage of lawyers who are ambulance chasers, criminal defense guys, etc. My problem is that 95% of all the lawyers out there actually try and defend the snakes and sleazbags who chase ambulances and sue doctors and defend the worst of the worst criminals. Do you defend their actions?

If we find unethical people or behavior in medicine and dentistry, the typical following action is for our professional organizations to denounce them, revoke their license, and say bad things about them; not whole heartedly support them like lawyers are accustomed to.
 
Ok Mr. Morality, try and explain to me how the trial lawyers in Florida are making this country better by passing a law that revokes licenses of doctors after there 3rd malpractice suit is brought against them. Regardless of how frivolous it might be. Hmmm. Wonder if they did that so every doctor would just settle instead.


I still hate the law profession.
 
I hear ya. I hate it when I find myself defending lawyers, but I feel I owe it to the good ones that I left behind because it really is an honorable profession that has just been hijacked by a bunch of dishonorable people. A generation or two ago, lawyers were held in high regard, but thanks to lax tort laws and a gross overpopulation of attornies, it has all just gone to hell.

Speaking of hijacking, I'll now stop doint that to the OP's thread.
 
I hear ya. I hate it when I find myself defending lawyers, but I feel I owe it to the good ones that I left behind because it really is an honorable profession that has just been hijacked by a bunch of dishonorable people. A generation or two ago, lawyers were held in high regard, but thanks to lax tort laws and a gross overpopulation of attornies, it has all just gone to hell.

Speaking of hijacking, I'll now stop doint that to the OP's thread.

Just remember, everyone in whatever practice their in(dental, medical, legal, etc), needs to practice to a level that they find morally acceptable. Some folks just have higher moral standards than other:eek: :rolleyes: :confused:
 
Lawyer sleeze: Look at how John Edward made his money as a lawyer.... suing doctors for a condition that was found to be congenital and had very little if anything to do with delivery of an infant. He made millions suing doctors (encouraging sad parents to prosecute) based off something that was found to be congenital. If he was honest, he would give all those millions of dollars back to insurance agencies and doctors. My 3 closest friends are practicing lawyers and when they say 7/10 lawyers are sleezy I think they would know. If you ask me which doctors at our 430 doctor group practice are sleezy or unethical it might be in the single digits.....it just so happens that three of the 7 I can think of also have concomminant JD degrees.... go figure.... class action law suits.... tort.... ambulance chasers.... there is a special place for all of them.....

Do you know why sharks don't bite lawyers?


professional courtesy!
 
Lawyer sleeze: Look at how John Edward made his money as a lawyer.... suing doctors for a condition that was found to be congenital and had very little if anything to do with delivery of an infant. He made millions suing doctors (encouraging sad parents to prosecute) based off something that was found to be congenital. If he was honest, he would give all those millions of dollars back to insurance agencies and doctors. My 3 closest friends are practicing lawyers and when they say 7/10 lawyers are sleezy I think they would know. If you ask me which doctors at our 430 doctor group practice are sleezy or unethical it might be in the single digits.....it just so happens that three of the 7 I can think of also have concomminant JD degrees.... go figure.... class action law suits.... tort.... ambulance chasers.... there is a special place for all of them.....

Do you know why sharks don't bite lawyers?


professional courtesy!

I'm kind of tired of defending a position that I don't really believe in, so I'm giving up, but as a final question, what's it like knowing two of your three closest friends are sleazeballs (or do they defy the statistics)?
 
I'm kind of tired of defending a position that I don't really believe in, so I'm giving up, but as a final question, what's it like knowing two of your three closest friends are sleazeballs (or do they defy the statistics)?

In order for the statistics to apply to esclavo's lawyer friends, we would have to be dealing with a randomly sampled population of lawyers.

This is clearly not the case, since the 3 lawyers in question were selected as esclavo's closest friends by esclavo himself. One could expect these three to exhibit traits making them acceptable to esclavo, in spite of his disdain for the sleaze amongst lawyers in general.

Therefore, your attempt at a smartass comment has ended up where it began: Sideways up your ass, ya jerk!
 
In order for the statistics to apply to esclavo's lawyer friends, we would have to be dealing with a randomly sampled population of lawyers.

This is clearly not the case, since the 3 lawyers in question were selected as esclavo's closest friends by esclavo himself. One could expect these three to exhibit traits making them acceptable to esclavo, in spite of his disdain for the sleaze amongst lawyers in general.

Therefore, your attempt at a smartass comment has ended up where it began: Sideways up your ass, ya jerk!

I know I shouldn't keep coming back for the beating, but I think I've been nothing but civil throughout this whole discussion, but I've had to deal with arrogant, rude, sweeping statements about myself and the few people who I think are worth defending in the legal profession.

However, good call on the statistics thing. That's what I get for finally giving in and getting mad and trying to take shot. I knew I shouldn't have even got involved in this thread to begin with. I've certainly learned that you can't peddle the virtues of the legal profession on a site called Student Doctor Networks...
 
I know I shouldn't keep coming back for the beating, but I think I've been nothing but civil throughout this whole discussion, but I've had to deal with arrogant, rude, sweeping statements about myself and the few people who I think are worth defending in the legal profession.

However, good call on the statistics thing. That's what I get for finally giving in and getting mad and trying to take shot. I knew I shouldn't have even got involved in this thread to begin with. I've certainly learned that you can't peddle the virtues of the legal profession on a site called Student Doctor Networks...

ya unless he chooses friends using the double-blind randomized, control-group method :)
look, ya there are some good, matter of fact some great and ethical lawyers out there (i know a few doing biotech patent law, civil rights, etc). but let's face it, as you alluded to earlier, the reputation of lawyers has gone down the toilet the last couple of decades. unfortunately the % of sleazy lawyers seems to be higher than % of sleazy _____ insert another profession.
 
I know I shouldn't keep coming back for the beating, but I think I've been nothing but civil throughout this whole discussion, ..

Ok, you've taken your lumps and dealt well. So I will say that everyone only hates lawyers until they really need one. No one is infallable.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top