Orthodontist Starting Salary

[queenofortho16]

Hi Y'all!

Realistically, and on AVERAGE (not cities/ rural areas, thinking more along the lines of suburbs)what is the average starting salary for an orthodontist? Please no extreme examples.

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[mmc12]

most likely will be lower now than last year due to covid.

 

[wannagiveup]

250 at a corporate office.

 

[allantois]

IMHO the only specialty that makes financial sense is OMS

 

[allantois]

Pediatrics, Perio, endo do great too with less of a Truly brutal residency.

I think those options are good too as long as people don't go into another 300k of debt on top of average ds debt

 

[Anondds87]

250 at a corporate office.

Is this full time?

Why do a lot of corporate ads say "estimated full time salary 350-400k". Just going off what's online when you look up ortho jobs

 

[AONLINE]

Pediatrics, Perio, endo do great too with less of a Truly brutal residency.

Most perio programs are equally expensive as ortho.

 

[LFA20]

But income potential and future outlook of Perio is better than ortho I think.

I thought perio was the worst out of all specialties in terms of future outlook??

 

[P7898]

I thought perio was the worst out of all specialties in terms of future outlook??

Depends on your outlook lol

 

[mmc12]

But income potential and future outlook of Perio is better than ortho I think.

Do you have any statistics to back this up?

 

[P7898]

Do you have any statistics to back this up?

Dental statistics are a sham when it comes to comparing incomes. Best to just do what interests you. Who cares at the end of the day if a profession makes a little more than the other. Uncle same takes it anyways.

 

[e00z]

Anecdotally, perio tied omfs as the highest paid specialists at the Corp I worked for.

 

[LFA20]

Anecdotally, perio tied omfs as the highest paid specialists at the Corp I worked for.

what does each one do?


perio : implants
OS: 3rds

???

 

[e00z]

Yes pretty much. The perio rotated through 8 clinics each month. He usually had a full schedule of implants, extractions (including 3rds), CL, Osseous sx, and he got to restore the implants too. Very good situation for him.
OS was sedation and 3rds.

 

[wannagiveup]

Yes pretty much. The perio rotated through 8 clinics each month. He usually had a full schedule of implants, extractions (including 3rds), CL, Osseous sx, and he got to restore the implants too. Very good situation for him.
OS was sedation and 3rds.

I wonder if corporate offices will start hiring dental anesthesiologists (especially now that DA is a recognized specialty) at a lower pay rate to do sedation cases. That will really put pressure on the OS salary for better or for worse (ie perio doing 3rds and implants while DAs do sedation).

 

[LFA20]

Yes pretty much. The perio rotated through 8 clinics each month. He usually had a full schedule of implants, extractions (including 3rds), CL, Osseous sx, and he got to restore the implants too. Very good situation for him.
OS was sedation and 3rds.

does your corporate hire endodontist?

 

[e00z]

does your corporate hire endodontist?

Yes they do. Endo has good earning potential. Endo was my #1 referred procedure. Lots of RCTs for the specialist. Your income is determined by how fast or slow you are. I have heard of endos doing anywhere from 5-25 in a day. Although, in my humble opinion, I don’t think I’d let an endo do a RCT on me if he worked fast enough to do more than 15 in a day.

 

[LFA20]

Yes they do. Endo has good earning potential. Endo was my #1 referred procedure. Lots of RCTs for the specialist. Your income is determined by how fast or slow you are. I have heard of endos doing anywhere from 5-25 in a day. Although, in my humble opinion, I don’t think I’d let an endo do a RCT on me if he worked fast enough to do more than 15 in a day.

how does endo compare to perio and OS in terms of earning potential?

1. OS
2. Endo/perio

is that right?

 

[e00z]

how does endo compare to perio and OS in terms of earning potential?

1. OS
2. Endo/perio

is that right?

Yes, in general, I think so. Depends on how hard the Corp pushes implants.

I am purely talking about working in a corporate setting. Private practice I don’t have much experience with and could not say how that market climate looks.

 

[ucd2018]

I wonder if corporate offices will start hiring dental anesthesiologists (especially now that DA is a recognized specialty) at a lower pay rate to do sedation cases. That will really put pressure on the OS salary for better or for worse (ie perio doing 3rds and implants while DAs do sedation).

If this occurs it probably won't be in the near future. I think right now the annual amount of newly graduated DAs is only around 30.

While on the subject of how specialists fare in the corp, do you know how pedodontists fare in this setting?

 

[e00z]

In corporate, both pedo and ortho usually have daily guarantees around $1,000-1,500. Some jobs also factor in production/collection.

 

[e00z]

I also want to mention...in most cases as a specialist you are not working at the same office everyday. The perio/omfs/endo/ortho that I worked with, they would come only 1x or 2x a month to my location. They need to travel a lot to fill up their schedule.

 

[mmc12]

how does endo compare to perio and OS in terms of earning potential?

1. OS
2. Endo/perio

is that right?

I've worked in a corp and it seems like the OS had the most stressful/intense work out of any of the dental specialties/GPs.

 

[mmc12]

Surgery, by the nature of its risks (broken mandible, oversedation, etc) is definitely the most stressful.

Yeah. I’d rather have a job as an ortho in a Corp than an OMFS. Even if ortho sees a lot more patients, most of those appointments are very short and most of the physical work can be delegated to assistants. Not so with oral surgery or pretty much any other specialty

 

[P7898]

I'd rather not be bored.... to each their own.

 

[charlestweed]

I’d rather be bored doing the same easy things everyday than having to sit down to perform the high risk surgical procedures. And then have to deal with post op complications like pain, dry socket, prolonged bleeding, infection, parathesia etc after the office hours……and have to worry about getting sued by the patients.

I love my job because it’s easy....mostly healthy patients, who don't need medical clearance by their MDs, prior to perform dental procedures.....low chance of getting a lawsuit.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

how does endo compare to perio and OS in terms of earning potential?

Anecdotally, in 2006, a periodontist in Seattle can produce $80k in one day placing implants. That was why the moonlighting perio resident I worked with was so enthused with his specialty.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

I've worked in a corp and it seems like the OS had the most stressful/intense work out of any of the dental specialties/GPs.

The OS in my last DMO had so many hip, back and neck problems. He was doing 3 to 4 chairs at the same time and I saw his failures such as drilling into the adjacent roots. His implant placements were atrocious and unrestorable. I felt so bad for him because he looked too miserable to enjoy his high income.

 

[endodonia]

I have heard of endos doing anywhere from 5-25 in a day.

25 rct's in a day? wow. I've seen very experienced (and competently completed) endodontists max out at 7-8 cases/day and they were beat after their day. how do you feel about referring to these individuals? p.s.- thanks for the invaluable insight. care to elaborate which state or geographical region you are in?

and have to worry about getting sued by the patients.

this is why I believe Ortho is the best dental specialty. many of my weekends are ruined by the threat of litigation. its only getting worse. Orthodontists don't even cause root resorption so what is it they can they get sued for? the lack of oral hygiene and 20 cavities post bracket removal is usually the GP's fault too.

 

[Utdarsenal]

How much do the Associating periodontists usually make? And in what location if you guys don’t mind me asking?

 

[e00z]

25 rct's in a day? wow. I've seen very experienced (and competently completed) endodontists max out at 7-8 cases/day and they were beat after their day. how do you feel about referring to these individuals? p.s.- thanks for the invaluable insight. care to elaborate which state or geographical region you are in?

Yes I think he is an anomaly. Most endos aren’t passing 10 endos in a day imo. He ran 3 columns 1 hr per Pt each no staggering. I hated referring to him to be honest. I can’t wrap my head around doing 25 in a day and doing them well. But he was the endo they hired.
I have heard one other private practice endo doing 20 procedures in a day, but a lot of the RCTs were 2 stepped. So it’s less than 20 RCTs. I am in California.

 

[mmc12]

The OS in my last DMO had so many hip, back and neck problems. He was doing 3 to 4 chairs at the same time and I saw his failures such as drilling into the adjacent roots. His implant placements were atrocious and unrestorable. I felt so bad for him because he looked too miserable to enjoy his high income.

Yeah. I'd choose a "boring" ortho job over having musculoskeletal problems, high chance of being sued, stressful job environment, dealing with post-op complications that could potentially need hospitalization any day. Not to mention that having such back/neck pain can really affect your quality of life and prevent you from enjoying otherwise pleasurable hobbies/activities.

 

[Utdarsenal]

Yeah. I'd choose a "boring" ortho job over having musculoskeletal problems, high chance of being sued, stressful job environment, dealing with post-op complications that could potentially need hospitalization any day. Not to mention that having such back/neck pain can really affect your quality of life and prevent you from enjoying otherwise pleasurable hobbies/activities.

why is “high chance of being sued” an issue for O.S’ or periodontists when the patient signs a consent form accepting associated risks of treatment?

 

[LFA20]

Yeah. I'd choose a "boring" ortho job over having musculoskeletal problems, high chance of being sued, stressful job environment, dealing with post-op complications that could potentially need hospitalization any day. Not to mention that having such back/neck pain can really affect your quality of life and prevent you from enjoying otherwise pleasurable hobbies/activities.

I remember when I was a dental student assisting in perio and OS. Boy.. ergonomics go out the door when you gotta retrieve that broken piece of root in the bone lmao..

Even now I still see OS sweating bullets when taking out impacted thirds.

ortho definitely wins in terms of lifestyle

 

[Utdarsenal]

I remember when I was a dental student assisting in perio and OS. Boy.. ergonomics go out the door when you gotta retrieve that broken piece of root in the bone lmao..

Even now I still see OS sweating bullets when taking out impacted thirds.

ortho definitely wins in terms of lifestyle

I do a few impacted wisdom teeth cases per week and although I love surgery, I’ve found myself nitpicking the cases mostly based on the patient’s behavior. Surgery also involves behavior management. You can bet your behind that 17 year old just youtube’d wisdom teeth surgery the night before and is sweating bricks on the chair before you numb him. I’d rather be trying to dig root tips out on someone who can open wide/seems able to handle tough situations better than someone who opens 1 cm and seems scared when I say “open wide”. There is definitely a plus to learning sedation that O.S’ have the advantage of having.

There‘s an ortho who comes to my office 1x a month but he always is complaining to me about how difficult it is to start an ortho practice and how in debt he is.. he seems really stressed and is always telling me about it.. Just interesting hearing different views.

 

[P7898]

I’d rather be bored doing the same easy things everyday than having to sit down to perform the high risk surgical procedures. And then have to deal with post op complications like pain, dry socket, prolonged bleeding, infection, parathesia etc after the office hours……and have to worry about getting sued by the patients.

I love my job because it’s easy....mostly healthy patients, who don't need medical clearance by their MDs, prior to perform dental procedures.....low chance of getting a lawsuit.

Makes one of us. If I wanted to sit and get bored, would have stayed in finance.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

25 rct's in a day? wow. I've seen very experienced (and competently completed) endodontists max out at 7-8 cases/day and they were beat after their day. how do you feel about referring to these individuals? p.s.- thanks for the invaluable insight. care to elaborate which state or geographical region you are in?

We had a part-time endodontist at my previous DMO who schedules molar RCTs every 45 min. His work looks good on xrays but had poor & unresolved healing and lots of PO complications. I can only imagine the Cali endodontist working 3 chairs. I wouldn't refer my family to them. I schedule 90 min for a molar RCT and together with 2nd chair and Hyg, I only get about 45 min to work on it and even less if they show up late.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

why is “high chance of being sued” an issue for O.S’ or periodontists when the patient signs a consent form accepting associated risks of treatment?

Informed consent does not protect you from a law suit. During my law suit and others that I had read and discussed, there were no mention of defense with consent. An OMFS from California at a convention mentioned that in Cali, IC gets thrown out during a law suit.

Reasonable standard of care is the topic of concern at a law suit. The OS at my last DMO who perforated the adjacent roots didn't get sued but the company had to pay for the pt's implant.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Makes one of us. If I wanted to sit and get bored, would have stayed in finance.

You won't get bored with finance unless you find making "bank," and living luxuriously dull. In seriousness, according to a 20 yr reunion study on Univ of Chicago School of Business, their MBA grads make similar income with dental specialists (about $250 - 500k) and no one making more than $1 mil.

 

[Utdarsenal]

Informed consent does not protect you from a law suit. During my law suit and others that I had read and discussed, there were no mention of defense with consent. An OMFS from California at a convention mentioned that in Cali, IC gets thrown out during a law suit.

Reasonable standard of care is the topic of concern at a law suit. The OS at my last DMO who perforated the adjacent roots didn't get sued but the company had to pay for the pt's implant.

I don’t understand some things.. I’m not saying those scenario’s didn’t happen, but how in the world did we reach this point where informed consent is close to meaningless?

But also, i’d imagine it’s very difficult to prove a dentist wasn’t operating under standard of care. I mean, where do you draw the line? If you ask 3 different dentists to diagnose something, they’ll give you different answers. Unless it was a very obvious screw up (as an example: doctor drilled bone on lingual plate for a lower wisdom tooth extraction and pt gets paresthesia) but even then, how can someone even really prove if the doctor drilled the lingual plate or the pt didn’t get paresthesia from the injection? I imagine many similar situations like that are hard to prove..

that’s why I don’t understand why an informed consent can’t cover most of the bases.. sometimes, as they say, s**t just happens even though you try to avoid it all costs. Kind of like the second you step out of your house, you’re already at higher risk of catching COVID. As soon as a pt is going to undergo treatment, they’re already at higher risk of adverse events occuring.

 

[Anondds87]

You won't get bored with finance unless you find making "bank," and living luxuriously dull. In seriousness, according to a 20 yr reunion study on Univ of Chicago School of Business, their MBA grads make similar income with dental specialists (about $250 - 500k) and no one making more than $1 mil.

I'm not sure how useful MBAs are today though. My friends in finance say that in the last 5-10 years MBAs lost a huge amount of their value as so many more people get them

 

[Molar Whisperer]

I don’t understand some things.. I’m not saying those scenario’s didn’t happen, but how in the world did we reach this point where informed consent is close to meaningless?

But also, i’d imagine it’s very difficult to prove a dentist wasn’t operating under standard of care. I mean, where do you draw the line? If you ask 3 different dentists to diagnose something, they’ll give you different answers. Unless it was a very obvious screw up (as an example: doctor drilled bone on lingual plate for a lower wisdom tooth extraction and pt gets paresthesia) but even then, how can someone even really prove if the doctor drilled the lingual plate or the pt didn’t get paresthesia from the injection? I imagine many similar situations like that are hard to prove..

that’s why I don’t understand why an informed consent can’t cover most of the bases.. sometimes, as they say, s**t just happens even though you try to avoid it all costs. Kind of like the second you step out of your house, you’re already at higher risk of catching COVID. As soon as a pt is going to undergo treatment, they’re already at higher risk of adverse events occuring.

Don't mean to bring up doom & gloom. My last DMO lost a $700k or $800k law suit on paresthesia from anesth (4% Septocaine). The clinical director then is now at my DMO and mentioned that case minus the specifics at our risk mgt mtg. He said the judge threw out IC stating the pt did not consent to negligence (paresthesia from anesth is not negligence or malpractice). Also around the Pacific NW, I heard this scam from numerous sources that if a female pt gets paresthesia, the husband can sue for the wife's inability to "perform wifely duties."

 

[charlestweed]

Makes one of us. If I wanted to sit and get bored, would have stayed in finance.

If there is such ideal job that allows me to make a lot money and I get to sit around doing nothing, I too would love to have it. The problem is I am totally clueless about finance, stock trading, investments and sales etc. Therefore, I pursued dentistry, a much safer career option for me. I don't need to speak perfect English. I don't need to have good people skills. I don't need to be good in sale. It's much easier to just get a space that has low rent to set up a practice, keep the overhead as low as possible....and I get to keep more of my hard earned money.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

I'm not sure how useful MBAs are today though. My friends in finance say that in the last 5-10 years MBAs lost a huge amount of their value as so many more people get them

I think MBAs are like lawyers. In order to have an edge, one must graduate from top tier schools (Ivy League). I believe you can get MBAs online which really dilutes their value like you mentioned. The top dogs work at Goldman Sachs and McKinsey & Co., while others manage hedge funds. Keep in mind the salaries of the executives and partners at those places are quite low while their tax friendly stock options and equity stakes are worth millions. My CPA friend owns 14 commercial properties. Since a little kiosk at the local mall rents at $5k a month, I'm going to guess his monthly tax friendly passive income is about $140k.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

If there is such ideal job that allows me to make a lot money and I get to sit around doing nothing, I too would love to have it. The problem is I am totally clueless about finance, stock trading, investments and sales etc. Therefore, I pursued dentistry, a much safer career option for me. I don't need to speak perfect English. I don't need to have good people skills. I don't need to be good in sale. It's much easier to just get a space that has low rent to set up a practice, keep the overhead as low as possible....and I get to keep more of my hard earned money.

Passive income is letting your asset make money for you while at the same time taxed very friendly.

Dr. charlestweed. I believe you have good people skills and you are good at selling to be successful at your job. Not everybody can get low rent and set up a successful practice like you can.

 

[Utdarsenal]

Don't mean to bring up doom & gloom. My last DMO lost a $700k or $800k law suit on paresthesia from anesth (4% Septocaine). The clinical director then is now at my DMO and mentioned that case minus the specifics at our risk mgt mtg. He said the judge threw out IC stating the pt did not consent to negligence (paresthesia from anesth is not negligence or malpractice). Also around the Pacific NW, I heard this scam from numerous sources that if a female pt gets paresthesia, the husband can sue for the wife's inability to "perform wifely duties."

this stuff makes me so mad. How does one even work comfortably knowing there is always a lingering threat of a lawsuit like that? Can happen at any time and for the thing you’d least expect. Paresthesia is something I’m pretty sure every practitioner will experience (possibly multiple times) throughout one’s work-life.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

this stuff makes me so mad. How does one even work comfortably knowing there is always a lingering threat of a lawsuit like that? Can happen at any time and for the thing you’d least expect. Paresthesia is something I’m pretty sure every practitioner will experience (possibly multiple times) throughout one’s work-life.

I can only speak for Paresthesia from Local Anesth. Hopefully that slimy lawyer in the Pacific NW don't share that scam to your area. If your pt has paresthesia, quickly followup on it and refer after about 2 weeks. I had a funny story on a paresthesia case after a lower molar RCT. Her Left tongue was partially numb and it helped her win 2nd place out of 1500 at bowling. My last DMO banned Septocaine to appease the insurance carriers. I don't use it as well and I still occasionally get paresth pts.

 

[Utdarsenal]

I can only speak for Paresthesia from Local Anesth. Hopefully that slimy lawyer in the Pacific NW don't share that scam to your area. If your pt has paresthesia, quickly followup on it and refer after about 2 weeks. I had a funny story on a paresthesia case after a lower molar RCT. Her Left tongue was partially numb and it helped her win 2nd place out of 1500 at bowling. My last DMO banned Septocaine to appease the insurance carriers. I don't use it as well and I still occasionally get paresth pts.

I went to a lecture from an endodontist just prior to this COVID break who stated he uses both Lido and Septo for all IAN blocks. First Lido and then Septo.
Septo is freakin’ amazing. Its paresthesia incidence is still super low.. more than Lido but it’s still pretty rare.. but works way better. It sucks so much that just because of those tiny differences in paresthesia incidents that it can be considered negligence.

I don’t know how we reached this point in the USA. We’re probably the #1 lawsuit-happy country in the world.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

I went to a lecture from an endodontist just prior to this COVID break who stated he uses both Lido and Septo for all IAN blocks. First Lido and then Septo.
Septo is freakin’ amazing. Its paresthesia incidence is still super low.. more than Lido but it’s still pretty rare.. but works way better. It sucks so much that just because of those tiny differences in paresthesia incidents that it can be considered negligence.

I don’t know how we reached this point in the USA. We’re probably the #1 lawsuit-happy country in the world.

The State where I went Dental School graduates about 50 dentists a year. The same State graduates over 300 lawyers (22 yrs ago). About 25 yrs ago, my brother got rear-ended and after a few hrs, 9 law firms called to represent him against the driver's ins co. There was an article on lawyers that graduate from bottom tier law schools like Thomas Jefferson in San Diego would owe over $250k in tuition but can only find a job as a legal assistant making $14/hr.

 

[Davicaine]

I went to a lecture from an endodontist just prior to this COVID break who stated he uses both Lido and Septo for all IAN blocks. First Lido and then Septo.
Septo is freakin’ amazing. Its paresthesia incidence is still super low.. more than Lido but it’s still pretty rare.. but works way better. It sucks so much that just because of those tiny differences in paresthesia incidents that it can be considered negligence.

I don’t know how we reached this point in the USA. We’re probably the #1 lawsuit-happy country in the world.

Sad part is that pretty much every state requires an “expert witness” to start a lawsuit... so in addition to a slimeball lawyer you also need a second-rate sleezball dentist willing to attest that something isn’t the “standard of care.” You’d be surprised how incompetent these so-called “experts” are and what they’d be willing to say is or isn’t standard of care... imagine the least knowledgeable dentist you’ve ever met... that person’s unfounded opinion is enough to take something to trial. Once you’re at that point, win or lose, your insurance premiums are way up and you’ve spent 1-3 years stressing over that bs.

Obviously not all malpractice cases aren’t justified, but I’d venture that most aren’t.