osteo vs. allo residencies

[Hayduke]

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Any input on D.O. EM post-grad training would be appreciated.

Is there any tangible benefit to going to an M.D. program? (professional academic slots, job placement etc.)

In wandering through the morass of info. regarding the match it looks to me like the D.O. match occurs first. If you match with a D.O. program then are you stuck with it?

Can you complete an allopathic program and incorporate OMM in your practice, or is this an additional fellowship/residency?

Thanks

 

[kungfufishing]

Im a 4th year going through the match process. If you match DO, you are locked into that DO program. It looks like there might be a little more flexibility via the MD route, but probably not too much - there are quite a few good osteopathic residencies and the current dearth of EM trained physicians probably means youd have plenty of options via either route. thats what I understand, at least. had to reply, ed abbey is one of my fav writers.

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by Hayduke
Any input on D.O. EM post-grad training would be appreciated.

Is there any tangible benefit to going to an M.D. program? (professional academic slots, job placement etc.)

In wandering through the morass of info. regarding the match it looks to me like the D.O. match occurs first. If you match with a D.O. program then are you stuck with it?

Can you complete an allopathic program and incorporate OMM in your practice, or is this an additional fellowship/residency?

Thanks

If you are even thinking of going into an academic position for Emergency Medicine, your best bet is to go with an MD EM residency.

The DO Match does occur first.

The DO EM spots are so much easier and non competitive than the MD ones, believe you me. I would say an average DO student could sign outside the match at most EM residencies in the DO hospitals. Instead of 800 applications the MD residencies receive, the DO ones probably don't break 50-70.

You can always incorporate OMM into your practice if you do a MD residency. I am 1 month into my EM residency, and have used OMT on a few patients (albeit with little relief). Its all up to you how you practice.

The DO residencies tend to be at smaller hospitals with very limited pathology. Where I did my core rotations, they are planning to start an IM/EM combined residency. The ED sees LESS than 15k a year, and I would say 14,500 of thoes patients are over the age of 60.

You cannot learn Emergency Medicine in that setting. Unfortunately, the same can be said for many of the DO residencies... some have extremely little trauma exposure.

Q, DO

 

[Hayduke]

Thanks for the information. Y'all pretty much confirmed what I thought.
Quinn-did you apply only to the allo. match?

 

[DrQuinn]

I originally had planned to apply to both DO and MD residencies... had contact 4-5 DO EM resideny programs and had their applications on my floor (unfilled out). But I had received a decent # of MD EM residency interviews, so I just said "screw it!" and didn't fill out the DO ones.

I was going to use the DO programs as "back up" in case I wasn't a competitive applicant to the MD programs...

But I guess my picture of me in a low-cut power suit really helped my ERAS application, and got lots of interviews.

Q, DO

 

[Hayduke]

Quinn
Define low cut-
I thought I read an earlier thread that snagged you sportin' a y-chromosome. Then again, being in that matrimonial way, I haven't given adequate appreciation to male cleavage in a long time.
Anyway thanks for sharing your experience. I have a few lightyears to go before I start ERAs. (MSI starting Monday)
It's great to have some idea of the future as I begin.

 

[DrQuinn]

Actually I have Kleinfelter's Syndrome, so my chromosomes are a little off.

Good luck in your first year. Dont' stress out too much... and make sure you go out for a pizza or a beer or lap dance... whatever you prefer.


Q, DO

 

[maysqrd]

Hey Quinn,

I have been following several of your posts over the past few months. First off, Congratulations on landing your #1 choice.

I am an older student starting MSI in two weeks and I have been spending much of my last year doing research on residency programs. You brought up a good point about the DO programs not being very big. I have looked at the competitiveness of the EM residencies and this is obviously a concern for me. I have pretty much narrowed it down that EM is for me and will more than likely only apply to EM. I worked in one for a while during undergrad and was so addicted to the environment and the patients. Most people that know me also think that EM is a good fit. Do you think that any of the DO programs are big enough for a resident to learn good medicine??

I am wondering because my husband has a highly specified job and he can only relocate to about 4-5 cities in the US, so it really narrows down my choices for EM. I have been looking into anything near Baltimore and I see York, PA isn't very far away but wonder if you have any insights into this residency thru your research.

 

[bobo]

maysqrd,

There are a couple of DO EM residencies where there is significant pathology/volume to get a good experience. One is Einstein in Philly, a dually accredited program. I think Quinn rotated there, so s/he can add some more.

I rotated through Muhlenberg Hospital in Bethlehem PA, a DO program. The ED there was pretty nice, and seemed fairly busy. Everyone up there is all gung-ho about how good the program is. There is no trauma, but they ship you over to lehigh Valley in nearby dirty nasty as hell Allentown PA. Again they are super gung-ho over this trauma experience because it is a trauma center for a large area and they run medevacs out of there. However, this area is very rural. I am sure they get enough trauma to get a good knowledge base and satisfy all the numbers/ skills, but I doubt they have a full-fledged knife and gun club.

hope this helps

bobo

 

[DrQuinn]

Maysqrd-

First off, do well in school. Don't forget you have a husband, and don't forget you are a person. Dont' study 24 hours a day. Take time out for a pizza or a beer, or a dinner with your hubby. It will keep you sane. But also enjoy your time as an M1 and M2... they're a LOT of fun (I had an almost college-like experience my first two years...).

Anyways, do not worry about the "competitiveness" of Emergency Medicine. An average applicant will match SOMEWHERE. I think an average/above average DO student can match somewhere in an MD residency as well.

I DID do an elective month at Einstein in Philly (Albert Einstein Medical Center)... Bobo is quite observant. It is a 4 year dually accredited DO/MD program. After going there, you will be more than competent as an Emergency Physician. Lots of trauma, lots of sick patients. Lots of other residencies as well to help you out (they even have dental). I didn't rank it highly because I was not a fan of Philadelphia...

I also did an EM elective at the University of Maryland. It was my second choice, and i REALLY loved it there. They do accept DOs there.

I also interviewed at York (the MD program). It was decent.

At this stage of the game, its not important to limit yourself to DO programs or geographical areas. Right now, enjoy being an M1, do well in your classes, make some freinds, and keep your options open. Once you hit third year, then is the time to look at programs. (ALthough I admit, I was looking at EM residencies as a pre-med just like you!).

Q, DO

 

[deleted6669]

ST. Barnabas in the bronx, ny is supposed to be a good D.O. EM residency. high volume trauma ctr, etc.
I have heard both good and bad things about the hopkins md em program in baltimore so check that out if you need to stay in the area. also, like Q, I have heard only good things about university of maryland/shock trauma.

 

[maysqrd]

Thanks for your replies. It is difficult to try and find programs that are both large enough to provide adequate experiences and close enough to certain major cities that I can go there. If my husband had any other job it wouldn't be an issue but he works in the defense industry and there are only so many places he can go. He would consider changing careers and doing something else while I'm in residency but he makes more than some doctors so the $$ makes it very difficult to walk away, not to mention the fact that he loves what he does.

 

[doc1]

Another dually accreditied program is Michigan State University/Sparrow Hospital. It is a level 1 trauma center and sees 80K plus patients a year. They take 5 D.O.'s and 5 M.D.'s per year. You have do complete an osteopathic internship year first, but they are tracking internships so D.O. students interview for both internship and residency at the same time.

 

[tonem]

Slightly off topic but maybe helpful. The August Annals of Emergency Medicine has an article on DO's in EM. I haven't even taken the plain brown wrapper...I mean plastic wrap off so I can't tell you what it says.

 

[maysqrd]

Hey Quinn,

Since you rotated thru Univ. of Maryland, do you know if they require the USMLE if you are D.O. applicant? Will they accept the COMLEX scores instead? I am trying to figure out which residencies are requiring the exam if you are a DO and based on websites it is hard to tell.

Thanks,

May^2

 

[DrQuinn]

I did not take the USMLE, but did very well on the COMLEX. One of the other DOs there told me he did not take the USMLE either... but they are pretty big on board scores (both the DOs that were there at the time told me).

JHU on the other hand didn't offer me an interview. Shoot, they didn't even have the decency to reject me. Just left me hanging.

MCV in Richmond rejected me, but offered an interview to a friend of mine who did just as well as I did on COMLEX, but she took the USMLE and dominated on that one too. EVMS rejected me, and UVA didnt' even respond.

Q, DO

 

[wook]

Quinn:

Would you know of any resources that indicate which residencies accept the COMLEX scores? I'm very interested in EM, but don't want to get hung up taking two boards. I've also received advice that it can be risky taking both boards if you don't do well on both.

I've been looking at UMass Worcester, Baystate Medical Center (also Massachusetts), Burlington Vermont, Darmouth (NH), and Portland Maine (Maine Med).

Thanks!!

Wook

 

[DrQuinn]

There is no "resource" that i know of that shows which tests the programs will accept. It is a safe bet to assume they will accept the USMLE (haha)...

Here's the dilly-

I did NOT take the USMLE, and got 20+ interviews.

I know someone who DID take the USMLE as well as the COMLEX and did VERY well on both, and she got about 75-80% of her interview offers back for interviews.

If you are interested in certain programs, email the PD or Asst PD or the Residency Coordinator. It can't hurt.

One other tip I can give, that I did... I went to every single programs' website (east of the Mississippi anyways), and saw if they had a DO on their website. If they did, I more often than not applied to it (as long as it wasn't in no-man's land).

Q, DO

 

[wook]

Quinn:

Would you know of any resources that indicate which residencies accept the COMLEX scores? I'm very interested in EM, but don't want to get hung up taking two boards. I've also received advice that it can be risky taking both boards if you don't do well on both.

I've been looking at UMass Worcester, Baystate Medical Center (also Massachusetts), Burlington Vermont, Darmouth (NH), and Portland Maine (Maine Med).

Thanks!!

Wook

 

[DrQuinn]

Wook-

Read above post.



Q, DO

 

[maysqrd]

Thanks Quinn for such great advice!! It is really appreciated.

 

[soluentgreen]

Look into Saint Barnabas in the South Bronx. Its a DO, level I trauma center, they just started a trauma fellowship, the ED sees almost 100 000 patients / year and they are expanding the ED over the next year.... probably the best DO program in the nation. And its about 20 minutes away from some unbelievalbe night life - given the bridges are not clogged.

 

[DOsDad]

Does anyone have any thoughts on DO EM residencies at Genesys in Grand Blanc, MI or Doctors Hospital in Columbus OH?

 

[DrQuinn]

I have a guy who was in my medical school who is up at Columbus, he just started his internship there, he is a trackign EM resident from what i know. He seemed to be impressed with it.

Don't know much abou Genesis.

Q, DO

 

[tonem]

Hey Wook,

UMass has three DO's from NECOM in their intern class, so I'd say they are pretty DO friendly. I think they took both the COMLEX and USMLE though.

 

[rh]

Genesys is a wonderful hospital. Mostly brand new, very nice schedual, the PD is a pretty nice guy. For the most part the reidents are a very bight bunch, and easy to get along with, as are the attendings. The patient population for the most part is white middle to upper class. You will be able to treat chest pain, MI's, ect. like a pro. If you plan on practicing in a suburban ER it is good training. There didactics are very good. The physical facilities are great. The only problem is that it is a suburban white middle class ER. Also there is a lot of complaining for the other services about how the ER consults every thing. Nose bleed consult ENT. Tuft fracture with an break in the skin, consult hand for open fracture. Non-diplaced distal radius conslut ortho. A 35 y/o white female with substenal chest pain, and no risk factors has a decent chance of being admitted for risk stratifcation. You get the picture. I understand the animosity is everywhere because we bring more work to the residents of other services, but there they seem to have a lot of dislike for the ER there. Would I go there? I almost did. It was my top choice for DO porgrams, and I was a student and an intern there.

 

[maysqrd]

It is really great to get some feedback on these residencies. Scutworks has a place for people to put in their reviews but they have very few reviews put in for the DO residencies.

If any of you have the time and could put in your reviews at Scutwork.com, it would really be beneficial to others that will follow you.

Thanks again for the great info, keep it coming!!

 

[wook]

Thanks everyone for your responses to my inquiries. It may be a slow process, but I'll get it figured out eventually!!




Wook

 

[DOrk]

Any DO's in the Oregon Health Sciences program? The website just has the residents' names without DO or MD.

 

[Chris_Topher]

Originally posted by wook
Quinn:

Would you know of any resources that indicate which residencies accept the COMLEX scores? I'm very interested in EM, but don't want to get hung up taking two boards. I've also received advice that it can be risky taking both boards if you don't do well on both.

I've been looking at UMass Worcester, Baystate Medical Center (also Massachusetts), Burlington Vermont, Darmouth (NH), and Portland Maine (Maine Med).

Thanks!!

Wook

Hey Wook(ie). I (a DO) rotated EM at MMC in Portland. The hospital in general is pretty DO friendly with one in most of their residency programs. Although there are none in EM at this time, I had a great interview and positive follow-up communication, and felt as though I was competitive and would be welcome there. All of the faculty and residents were very cool with me being there.

I am not sure that Dartmouth has a EM program, so they may not take you regardless of your degree.