Osteopathic ER Residency

[Atlas]

Hey all,

I'll be starting at OUCOM next fall and I am wondering how competitive emergency medicine residencies (AOA) are to get? I'm looking into the CORE-OUCOM residencies and there are many programs that are listed as having openings, according to the AOA opportunities website. With these programs, are there certain COMLEX scores I should aim for, or will "passing" suffice?

Thanks

Atlas

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[DrQuinn]

I just spoke with a program director of an ACGME EM residency. He gave me the straight facts. With 500+ people applying for 10 spots or so in a ACGME residency, that's around 50:1 (applying, not interviewing)... You'll have MD, FMG, DOs applying for those spots. With the AOA residencies, you only have maybe 100 or so people applying for 5-8 spots. So statistically your chances are much higher, say 15-20:1. You only are going against other DO students.

I would say that the DO residencies are much easier to get into than the MD residencies. I am doing an EM elective now, and one of the interns (ACGME residency) who is a DO told me his story. He applied to several DO residencies, and was practically begged to go there... he instead chose to go to this MD residency.

This intern also dominated on his boards, and was at the top of his class.
Q

 

[DocWagner]

There are many fine DO EM residencies available, just do your homework.
I chose an MD residency primarily because of more stringent residency quality guidelines, tighter didactics, and greater depth of pathology with greater numbers of patients from the larger hospitals.

The job market is great for EM trained doctors so the outlook is bright for either the DO or MD residents.

 

[DrQuinn]

I just re-read the poster's original message... and I guess your answer was never answered. First, I"ll tell you I'm a fourth year DO student applying to residencies as we speak... so that's my background.

Like I said before, I talked with an ACGME residency director, and he said simply, that most, if not all, of the people that they will offer interviews for residency, are atleast >50% on their boards. I know several excellent interns who didn't match into EM because their board scores were not stellar....

Don't let it scare you, though, I know a DO who got into a great MD residency with less than stellar board scores. Bottom line, no one really knows what criteria people use to choose residents... so just do the best that you can on the boards. (easier said, eh?)

 

[bcrosspac]

Does anyone know which of the ACOEP ER programs are considered to be "fast track", if any? I would like to keep my osteopathic roots but do not want to spend the extra year in an internship. Have been an ER PA for 5 yrs and am OLD! I cant afford that year of internship and dont need the experience. Thanks.

Bill Cross, MS-3 NSU-COM

 

[slindsay198]

if i remember seeing it correctly, PCOM has a fastrack internship/ER program. check out the two links below for PCOM's internship and ER residency. look at the very bottom of the intership link, right about the "application for internship" heading.

http://www.pcom.edu/Graduate_Medical_Education/Internship_Programs/internship_programs.html

PCOM ER residency

hope these help.

Scott
PCOM-MSII

 

[deleted6669]

Bill-all DO ED residencies are now 4 years. check out the acoep website. I think all of the programs that are pgy 1-4( as opposed to 2-4) have a specialty option. I could be wrong, but that was my understanding.I have heard that st barnabas in NYC is the best of the DO ED residencies.
I am an ER PA with 7 yrs experience( age 33) and hope to be in your shoes soon-e

 

[Dr. Evil]

That is not correct. There are programs that you can finish in three years. I can't really list them here. Your best bet is to register at DO-online, go to the student doctor resources, then to Opportunities. Here you can search the programs and see which ones offer a fast track. If in doubt, contact the program that interests you.

 

[deleted6669]

Dr evil-apparently the AOA disagrees with you. see below from their website:
Osteopathic Graduate Medical Education FAQ

Initial Residency Period Limitations for Osteopathic Residencies
Residency Type Initial Period (years)
Includes the internship year
ANESTHESIOLOGY..............................
Critical Care Medicine..............................

DERMATOLOGY...................................
Dermatopathology.....................................
MOHS Micrographic Surgery...................

EMERGENCY MEDICINE.....................
Sports Medicine........................................

FAMILY PRACTICE...............................
Adolescent and Young Adult Medicine.......
Geriatrics...................................................
Sports Medicine........................................

INTERNAL MEDICINE..........................
Clinical Allergy and Immunology................
Cardiology.................................................
Endocrinology...........................................
Gastroenterology.......................................
Hematology..............................................
Infectious Diseases...................................
Nephrology.............................................
Oncology ................................................
Pulmonary Diseases..................................
Rheumatology...........................................
Clinical Cardiac Electrophysiology..............
Critical Care Medicine...............................
Geriatrics...................................................
Sports Medicine........................................

NUCLEAR MEDICINE...........................
In-Vivo and In-Vitro Nuclear Medicine......
Nuclear Cardiology...................................
Nuclear Imaging and Therapy....................

NEUROLOGY........................................
Child Neurology.......................................

PSYCHIATRY.......................................
Child Psychiatry.......................................

OSTETRICS/GYNECOLOGY.................
Maternal and Fetal Medicine......................
Gynecological Oncology............................
Reproductive Endocrinology......................

FACIAL PLASTIC SURGERY...............

OPHTHALMOLOGY.............................

OTORHINO/FACIAL PLASTIC SURGERY................................................

OTORHINOLARYNGOLOGY...............

ORTHOPEDIC SURGERY......................

PATHOLOGY, ANATOMIC ..................

PATHOLOGY, ANATOMIC/LABORATORY MEDICINE...............................................

PATHOLOGY, LABORATORY MEDICINE...............................................
Forensic pathology....................................
Blood Banking / Transfusion Medicine.......
Chemical Pathology....................................
Cytopathology...........................................
Dermatopathology.....................................
Hematology...............................................
Immunopathology.......................................
Medical Microbiology................................
Neuropathology.........................................

PEDIATRICS.......................................
Adolescent and Young Adult Medicine......
Neonatal Medicine.....................................
Pediatric Allergy / Immunology...................
Pediatric Cardiology .................................
Pediatric Hematology / Oncology...............
Pediatric Infectious Diseases......................
Pediatric Intensive Care..............................
Pediatric Nephrology................................
Pediatric Pulmonology................................
Pediatric Sports Medicine..........................

PREVENTIVE MEDICINE.....................

PREVENTIVE/AEROSPACE MEDICINE.............................................

PROCTOLOGY.......................................

RADIATION ONCOLOGY...................

RADIOLOGY, DIAGNOSTIC................
Angiography and Interventional Radiology..
Diagnostic Ultrasound................................
Neuroradiology .........................................
Nuclear Radiology.....................................
Radiological Imaging ..................................
Pediatric Radiology....................................

REHABILITATION MEDICINE..............
Sports Medicine.........................................

GENERAL SURGERY.............................

NEUROSURGERY ..................................

PLASTIC AND RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGERY................................................

THORACIC CARADIOVASCULAR SURGERY................................................

UROLOGICAL SURGERY.....................

GENERAL VASCULAR SURGERY.......

CRITICAL CARE SURGERY .................

OSTEOPATHIC MANIPULATIVE MEDICINE..............................................
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[William]

sorry its internship PLUS 3 years of EM in all programs by the AOA's certification standards.

many ACGME programs are also intersnhip plus 3 years of EM

 

[DocWagner]

If you would like a complete list of EM programs nationwide, both allopathic and osteopathic, go to www.saem.org

 

[Dr. Evil]

I have re-checked my sources, and I am mistaken. You must complete a year of internship before entering a three year AOA approved EM residency. The programs to which I alluded merely offer linked contracts between the internship and EM residency. They do not offer a fast-track EM program. Sorry for the confusion, and apologies to anyone I mislead.

If you want to save that extra year, you will have to limit yourself to allopathic residencies. Just be aware that there are about six states that will not allow you to practice without having completed an AOA internship. Maybe that will change someday, but until then, keep it in mind. You would also be unable to serve as a DME at an osteopathic institution. That's presumably less important to you now, but you never know. Again, it is just something to keep in mind.

 

[PACtoDOC]

I am only a first year DO student, but have been a PA for four years. I am finding med school to be less challenging than I would have hoped in some ways, but for family time I am loving it. If my board scores parallel my grades, I will probably choose to go EM. My training before PA school was as a military medic/paramedic and I think this would be helpful in getting a good ACGME residency. I would have no problem doing a DO residency but there are none in my part of the country. If my board scores are not in line with my grades, then I will do FP which is what I have done as a PA. Either way I expect I will be happy, but I know I have what it takes to be a good ER doc. The problem is that I don't want to stress out applying for an EM spot that I might not get if my board scores are marginal. I won't even waste my time applying EM unless my scores are stellar. My goal is a 240 USMLE, and as a DO student and former (actually still presently) a PA, I think I can do it. One advantage a DO student has in taking the USMLE is timing, meaning that you can take it when you want since there is no required passing of it to start 3rd year. So I plan to take it after the COMLEX to get an idea what I am deficient in, and to have some more study time. In Texas, EM residency spots are often filled by DO's. If you look at the military spots, Scott and White in Temple, and even UTH, I think they have all had DO's. So does Tech I believe. There is a fairly ruputable rumor that John Peter Smith hospital in Ft. Worth is going to start up a combined DO/MD EM program next year that would have faculty from UT Southwestern in Dallas and TCOM in Ft. Worth. Rumor has it that it will take 3 DO's and 3 MD's and the DO's will have the ability to be certified by both AOA and ACGME. I have heard that this is the wave of the future for AOA to keep DO's in their organization and keep them from going only ACGME. It sounds like a great idea. There are already combined programs out there, like the one at Albert Einstein in the northeast. I hope I will have options like this when it is time for me to apply.

 

[soluentgreen]

I dont know if Im going off the subject thread here, but is there such a thing as an unofficial "best DO EM residency" out there?

 

[DrQuinn]

I have talked to several DO EM attendings about that... and the general consensus I get is that the ones in MI or OH are probably the better of the breed. Unfortunately I cannot narrow it down to a specific program, as I didn't ask.
Q

 

[soluentgreen]

Thanks QuinnNSU!!!!!

what about the east coast programs, places such as St Barnabas or Lehigh valley or Einstein?

 

[DrQuinn]

Out of all of those places, I would wholeheartedly go to Einstein in Philly. It is a great program, MD OR DO. If you are thinking of applying there, make sure you realize they will only be accepting DO residents through ERAS... not the AOA match. They of course will still be a MD/DO dually accredited residency, but are doing ERAS only.
Einstein is a great place to train, after those 4 yrs you will know your stuff backwards/forwards/up and down.
Q

 

[Wheazer]

QuinnNSU, I'm not certain your information is accurate. I interviewed at Einstein last year and unless their criteria have changed, they take DO applicants through the AOA match first and reserve the option to snag any competetive DO a second time around in the NRMP (eras) match later. Whie interviewing the department chair specifically stated that they preferr to take DO applicants through the AOA. The advantage for them is that they can fill the DO spots earlier in the year through the AOA match and any unfilled positions can be applied to the NRMP match.

My interview impression about einstein was that of the DO programs it was one of the most well funded, organized, programs with strong didactics, great clinical experience and full of academic opportunities (teaching, research, etc). A very strong program. I did not rank the program for several reasons. One, I was applying to other MD programs and if i entered the AOA match it would force me to rank the program first if there were no other DO programs. Second the program is strong but also very stiff. Their residents work long hours from the first year to the fourth (more than most EM residencies) and the leadership seem to run a clean, rigorous and almost militant program. Too malignant for me. Again my experience based only on discussions with residents there and my interview impression. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[DrQuinn]

Wheazer...
My information is accurate, as is yours. Last year they did take DO appliacnts through the AOA match, but starting this year it will be ERAS only. Straight from the administration's mouth. (as of August 2002). If you have heard anything more recent than that, than you are indeed the more accurate.

 

[srlondon]

Sadly, USMLE scores have little correlation with either clinical acumen or your ultimate success as a doctor. Particularly in step I, the main skills being examined are (as always) your ability to take tests and your ability to retain the arcana from the first two years of med school which have only tenuous correlation to most fields of medicine.

However, aforementioned statement is mentioned solely to point out that the test should not be the end all and be all of your existence for the next two years. By all means try to do the best that you can, but having successfully made it into an allopathic academic EM program, I can assure you that your boards scores are not going to make or break your application in the match. While there are certain programs which are well-known in their prediliction for high board scores (one in SW Ohio comes to mind), most program directors are no fools when it comes to USMLE scores as their significance. The general impression I got was that if you are very low or very high, you will call attention to yourself (either unwanted or wanted, respectively), but that if your scores are within a standard deviation of the mean, you really aren't going to be helped or hurt too much. Recommendations, interviews, and clinical grades are felt to be of more value in assessing a candidate.

If, at the end of your third year you really decide that you want to do EM, you'd be nuts to let board scores dissuade you. If you are truly marginal (barely passed or failed), you should clearly have a contingency plan. But don't be so quick to sacrifice your aspirations.

Originally posted by PACtoDOC
My goal is a 240 USMLE, and as a DO student and former (actually still presently) a PA, I think I can do it.

 

[spyderdoc]

Don't bother taking the MD boards if you are a DO. Seriously, in my experience with applying to residency, only one, Loma Linda, required MD boards to better "compare" you with the MD competitors. I applied to about 30 MD programs, and interviewed 12. I matched in one of my top choices.
The MD boards may help you if you do really well on them. They can also hurt you real bad if you do jam on the DO boards and then do poorly on the MD boards....
It also costs a TON of extra money to take the MD boards, plus the extra stress of sitting there for 2 days, etc...
Of course, it is up to you, but I do not recommend taking the MD boards...Good luck

 

[docB]

I second the vote for Einstein as an excellent program. I rotated there as a med student. I would have been perfectely happy to go there as an MD. They are a 4 year and their first year is very broad (almost like a transitional year) to meet the odd PA DO license requirements. The advantage of this is that the fourth years are given a lot of autonomy in the ED. One other benefit is that you must be fourth year or higher to run traumas and the 4s there do so. The PD, Doug McGee is a fantastic teacher and a really nice guy. It's in inner city Philly and there's no shortage of interesting pathology.
docB