osteopathic medicine

[relish]

Hello MD's or future MD's,
I wanted to post a thread to get feedback on what the majority thinks about ostepathic medicine and the DO degree. In the future, I know I will have a lot of contact with MD's especially doing rotations in the 3rd and 4th year. I just wanted to get a general idea for what you see a DO as, and if you would treat them differently than your other collegues, ect..
thanks.


DMU 2007

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[PimplePopperMD]

Done rotations with DO students. no difference; except their schedule stinks compared with ours.

Don't anticipate any attitudes, or anything else. Really the same darned thing. The philosophy arguement makes me laugh. There's no difference in the most important part of med school-- clinical years.

 

[vitaminj]

No difference.

Only negative is that DO students seem to do there rotations away from their institution and are not included in ours. Kinda sucks because they miss out on some good lectures and conferences.

The manipulation therapy seems pretty cool but it has been my experience that many DOs don't use this.

 

[Fenrezz]

[Sneaking into the MD forum to make a forbidden post.....]

Relish, don't sweat it. Take whatever you heard about the whole MD/DO thing during your pre-med years and throw it out the window.

MD's and DO's work together all the time and no fist fights break out (that I've heard anyway). All the stuff you hear about how MD's look down on DO's is garbage. Even if an MD does look down on you for your degree, he/she won't let you know it. And if it does happen, just make sure you hang out with a couple of Carib MD's (just kidding).

Don't get all caught up in the whole "philosophy" nonsense, though. The idea that DO's treat the patient and MD's treat the disease really is laughable. Personally, I think it's a throwback to the days when osteopaths really were discriminated against, and that was their way of making themselves feel better.

Anyway, congrats on your acceptance to DMU, and good luck in medical school!

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by PimplePopperMD
There's no difference in the most important part of med school-- clinical years.

I wish this were true. There's been extensive discussion about this on other threads. If you are attending a DO school which doesn't have an affiliated hospital for your core requirements (most do not), then you end up having to arrange your rotations anywhere you can find them. There is little or no consistency or adherence to established guidelines for training medical students.

Although our coverage at the county hospital are the sought-after rotations for the local osteopathic students, they compare extremely poorly with the clinical experiences of the allopathic programs I'm familiar with in terms of breadth of exposure. To make matters even worse, the school also requires only half the time that the allopathic programs do.

If anything, I think that the first two years are probably comparable, and it's during the clinical years that major differences arise.

An addendum to more completely address you questions:
DOs who have demonstrated excellence in performance are little or no different than similarly performing MDs. I'm forced to say 'little' because residual biases will always exist for some. For example, my program has had a long established policy of refusing to interview DOs for surgery residency. Ironically, the first time we came close to breaking from this policy was when we had a phenomenally performing DO rotating through as a fourth year, whom we aggressively recruited for our incoming class. He declined to interview, and is currently finishing anesthesia residency at Mayo Clinic.

This actually illustrates my point, I think. Once members of the medical community work with you, they will form opinions as to your capabilities, work ethic, and so forth. All of that overrides what school you went to, what grades, what scores... So, for hard working individuals, I think you will find most doors open to you, no matter what your starting points.

Congrats, and keep up the good work.

 

[H&P-Stat]

All the stuff you hear about how MD's look down on DO's is garbage. Even if an MD does look down on you for your degree, he/she won't let you know it. And if it does happen, just make sure you hang out with a couple of Carib MD's (just kidding).

First of all, let me say that I've worked with DO students and under DO attendings. In my experience, there isn't a lot of difference in the quality of education or training (except it was pretty shocking the first time I watched a DO make an spine adjustment on a patient with low back pain).

But to say that you won't ever be looked down upon for your degree is somewhat naive. All you have to do is check out the flame wars that erupt in the preAllo/preOsteo forums. The statements in those posts are made by premeds and MD students, most of whom will carry their feelings about DO's well into practice. Although I've never seen any attitude from MD's towards DO's, I have heard derogatory statements made about DO's on several occasions outside of the hospital when no DO's were within earshot.

I'm afraid that the one letter of difference in your degree is going to be a source of some ridicule, but never to your face at least.

 

[oceandocDO]

If you are attending a DO school which doesn't have an affiliated hospital for your core requirements (most do not), then you end up having to arrange your rotations anywhere you can find them. There is little or no consistency or adherence to established guidelines for training medical students.

This is entirely untrue. All D.O. schools have affiliated hospitals, most of the hospitals dont hold the name of the school, but all are "affiliated" with the D.O. school. Alot of allopathic school hospitals arent even legally owned by the med school anymore, as the liability is too great.

Regarding the "affiliations", for example, in NY, NYCOM students can rotate through the North Shore Hospital System, which is "affiliated" with both NYCOM and NYU Med, hence NYU students rotate through the hospital as well. They rotate under the same attendings as the D.O. students, just often on different concurrent services to allow for space. North Shore was voted last year to be the best overall hospital system in the country by a national patient's advocacy group, so I dont think the D.O.s are being subjected to watered down teaching which lacks "guidelines or consistency".

Although our coverage at the county hospital are the sought-after rotations for the local osteopathic students, they compare extremely poorly with the clinical experiences of the allopathic programs I'm familiar with in terms of breadth of exposure. To make matters even worse, the school also requires only half the time that the allopathic programs do

Can you explain this a bit more? How does rotating through the same hospitals equate to poor exposure? Regarding clinical timing, in 3rd year I spend 12 weeks in surgery, 12 in medicine, and 6 each in peds, psych, FP, and OB/Gyn. Do MD students have more than 52 weeks in a year?

IMO, there's actually a hidden benefit to rotating through several different hospitals. MD students who choose to only stay only in their own hospital miss this, I feel. D.O. students get to pick and choose what hospital to do which rotation at, hence, you can tailor your rotations to which hospital has stronger departments for that particular clerkship. Plus you get to shop yourself around a bit more and observe different systems of management to see what you like best. If you really like one hospital, then you can stay there for the year and do all rotations there. It's up to you. MD students at most schools may also choose to go out-of-house, but they usually dont have anywhere near the quantity of official affiliations and hence choices that alot of D.O. students do. NYCOM has about 35 affiliated hospitals all over the NY metro area. The school sets up the rotations of your choice for you, hence you never need to pick up a phone if you dont want to. Hence, don't worry about us poor D.O. students, we dont have it as bad as you may think.

Anyway, enough for now. My $0.02 is up.

 

[oceandocDO]

I'm afraid that the one letter of difference in your degree is going to be a source of some ridicule, but never to your face at least.

These are probably the same doctors that laugh at psychiatric patients behind their backs too. Whatever. Surgeons look down at internists. Internists look down at FP docs. FP docs look down at nurse practitioners. Nurse practicioners look down at RNs. The Ivies look down at state schools. State schools look down at smaller state schools. We all look down on chiropractors. Big friggin deal. It's the American way-- I'm better than you because ____________. I'll still sleep at night.

If that's all you have to warn the original poster about, good contribution. This thread is starting to turn into yet another MD/DO battle. Just what we all need.

 

[H&P-Stat]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
If that's all you have to warn the original poster about, good contribution.

Umm... yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the original poster ask about MD attitudes, perceptions, and treatment of DO's and the osteopathic degree? It's posted in the Allopathic forum so I assume (s)he wanted honest answers from MD students.

Jeez, flamed for staying on point.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Can you explain this a bit more? How does rotating through the same hospitals equate to poor exposure? Regarding clinical timing, in 3rd year I spend 12 weeks in surgery, 12 in medicine, and 6 each in peds, psych, FP, and OB/Gyn. Do MD students have more than 52 weeks in a year

Sounds like you're in a super program, oceandocDO; can't say that there seems much to criticize there.

Forgive me, I'm a bit weary of this debate, having gone through it before. The county hospital rotation is a small, ill equipped hospital that has to send out anyone needing subspecialty care, and for many types of testing or interventions (angiography, percutanous drainages, sterotactic breast biopsies, even ultrasonography for many things). The students do a single 4 week rotation, during which they help run a very small (average inpatient census: about 4 patients), very basic general surgery service. Exposures to vascular patients, trauma patients, plastic surgery, morbid obesity...fuggedaboudit. We're lucky if we can get the students to end the rotation with basic understanding of management of GI bleeding, breast mass, and gallbladder disease. Often, most of that time is spent in trying to teach them how to do H&Ps and to write progress notes, for about half of the students seem completely unable to accomplish these basic tasks. Didactic teaching is virtually nonexistent unless enforced by the residents - some of whom are interested in teaching, and some of whom ignore the students entirely. Four weeks and they're done: that constitutes their entire inpatient surgery experience.

The students themselves complain that their clinical experiences are tremendously variable and pretty much luck of the draw. The vast majority of their experiences are outpatient, and they tell me that most of the docs limit the student to the role of observer, which explains how it is that I've worked with fourth year students who had never done a history and physical before (!!)

Hopefully I don't need to explain in what ways these experiences differ from those of more typical medical school curriculums.

 

[oceandocDO]

Granted, the rotation you speak of seems to be sub-par at best, but please dont equate that one rotation to a blanket statement of the entire profession. Every program, no matter if it's D.O. or M.D., has their weaknesses. Much of it based on geography and resources. Some D.O. schools, mainly the ones that stress primary care to underserved or rural populations, dont place alot of emphasis on the surgical clerkship. I dont necessairly agree with this, but I can understand their arguement, as these docs are going to, and desire to be, family practicioners, not surgeons. Their time is better spent learning primary care than seeing a quadruple bypass. The lack of knowledge in H&Ps is another story, maybe it's because the residents dont feel like teaching.

The vast majority of their experiences are outpatient, and they tell me that most of the docs limit the student to the role of observer, which explains how it is that I've worked with fourth year students who had never done a history and physical before (!!)

Regarding being delegated to the role of the observer, this is unfortunately commonplace for all medical students, especially in the OR, and especially in large teaching centers, which MD hospitals often are. Medical students are third and sometimes fourth in the evolutionary line when it comes to assisting. This is sometimes alleviated by rotating at a smaller community hospitals without residents, where it's you and the attending, and that's it. Granted maybe you wont see the most ground breaking surgery or technologically advanced procedures, but for 99% of medical students, you need to know see the horses before you see the zebras, and more often the smaller places will show you the horses much more intimately.

Its unfortunate that your residents arent into teaching. Why is this?

 

[H&P-Stat]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Its unfortunate that your residents arent into teaching. Why is this?

Oh boy.

 

[Behcet]

[Regarding being delegated to the role of the observer, this is unfortunately commonplace for all medical students, especially in the OR, and especially in large teaching centers, which MD hospitals often are. Medical students are third and sometimes fourth in the evolutionary line when it comes to assisting. This is sometimes alleviated by rotating at a smaller community hospitals without residents, where it's you and the attending, and that's it. Granted maybe you wont see the most ground breaking surgery or technologically advanced procedures, but for 99% of medical students, you need to know see the horses before you see the zebras, and more often the smaller places will show you the horses much more intimately.]

Depends on where you are...I'm at a school based in a large med center, with 4 major hospitals (university, VA, county, and pediatric) all in one, plus the availability of community rotations. And I can tell you, we are put front and center on many of our rotations... I can remember as a 3rd year on the first day of my first rotation, psych, getting a brief lecture on how to do an H&P, then seeing outpatients by myself in the afternoon, rounding/writing notes on inpatients the next morning, and dictating discharge summaries by the end of the first week. I did my surgery rotation at a community hospital, which was great, cause I got to be first assist on everything since there were no residents. Even in the university setting, though, on major surgeries sure they had to sit in the back of the room sometimes, but on simple cases my classmates all have stories of suturing, debriding tissue, and of course the dreaded...retracting... Even now as a 4th year, we are treated as interns on many services and expected to perform as such (for example, on most of the consult services, MS-4s are expected to see patients and present during rounds to the attending without any resident or fellow having been behind them - aside from coat length and name tags, we're given the same treatment as the residents on service). I don't know how other med schools operate, so maybe this situation is just unique to mine. If you're spending a large amount of time shadowing/observing rather than doing, that's a poor quality rotation, I think. Volume and variety are also very important - you're totally right about needing to learn the basics as well as the fascinomas, but you can't come out of med school without at least some grasp of the fascinomas (with a firm foundation already established in the basics). It's something that, looking back now, I think was the absolute most important aspect of medical education - the quality of the clinical rotations. There are MD schools with poor clinical rotations as well as DO schools, so I'm not just trying to pick on DOs here, but womansurg makes a valid point.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by Behcet
I can remember as a 3rd year on the first day of my first rotation, psych, getting a brief lecture on how to do an H&P, then seeing outpatients by myself in the afternoon, rounding/writing notes on inpatients the next morning, and dictating discharge summaries by the end of the first week....Even now as a 4th year, we are treated as interns on many services and expected to perform as such (for example, on most of the consult services, MS-4s are expected to see patients and present during rounds to the attending without any resident or fellow having been behind them - aside from coat length and name tags, we're given the same treatment as the residents on service).

In my mind, you are describing the ideal clinical experience here. This is the expectation which I have for my students and is the standard to which I hold them. I believe that your learning is just exponential in this scenario compared with that of a nonparticipatatory observer.

 

[kreno]

Changing the topic slightly... osteopathic schools flaunt the admissions criteria which "looks past the grades" and into other, arguably more important qualities such as life experiences, dedication, etc. My question is this: is this true? do oseopaths, in general, tend to be physicians which significantly richer pasts than allopaths?

What are some ideas on this? If this is the case, well, great! But if it's not, then why do osteopathic schools have such significantly lower academic and MCAT standards?

respectively
kreno

 

[oceandocDO]

Changing the topic slightly... osteopathic schools flaunt the admissions criteria which "looks past the grades" and into other, arguably more important qualities such as life experiences, dedication, etc. My question is this: is this true? do oseopaths, in general, tend to be physicians which significantly richer pasts than allopaths? What are some ideas on this? If this is the case, well, great! But if it's not, then why do osteopathic schools have such significantly lower academic and MCAT standards?

Incoming! I dont think there's ever been a study to statistically confirm that D.O.s have more life experience. From my own experience, I'd say yes, but someone else may disagree. MD students usually have a lower average matriculating age, which points to many D.O.s having previous careers. Historically, D.O. schools are not as worried about the numbers because they realize MCAT scores dont equate to the quality of the physician 4 years later. As soon as that competitive nature is thrown out the window, you can open up the grading criteria to many more intangibles than often many MD programs look past. As far as the numbers themselves, they are closer these days than they've ever been in the past, ...ie the bell curves overlap significantly. It's the upper Ivies and the lower tiered D.O. schools which swing the scales in the present direction if you really look at the numbers. The middle 50% of matriculating students in either program are not that statistically different when it comes to scores, both average between a 3.4 and 3.7 gpa and between a 26-31 MCAT. A few D.O. schools bring down the average a bit because they only accept rural students who are committed to practicing rural medicine, often rejecting other candidates who have better scores. Some also have much more aggressive recruiting of minority candidates. I'm not saying rural or minority students always have lower scores, I'm saying they're looking for a particular type of student, one that isnt dictated by numbers. With only 20 D.O. schools, a few schools who harbor philosophies like this will significantly affect the profession's matriculating average.

It's changing though. The Univ of Wisconsin released a study proclaiming osteopathic medicine to be the quickest growing sector of healthcare. As a result, the average age of a D.O. is more than a decade younger than the average MD, as a result, D.O.s on the whole havent worked their way up to the leadership positions in healthcare. Once they do, and it will happen and already has to some small extent, the profession will assume much more responsibility in directing the course of healthcare. In fact, a major inititative for medical school curricular reform, UME-21, which about 20 MD schools are participating in, is run by D.O.s. D.O.s will never outnumber MDs, but they will provide the country with a more judicious checks and balances in the healthcare realm, which should be good for all, IMO.

enough for now. hit back at will.

 

[Behcet]

this is all crap. DOs spend a lot of time claiming how you are just as good as MDs and trying to get equality and respect, and use ridiculous things to try to prove this point, yet still use phrases like "D.O.s will never outnumber MDs, but they will provide the country with a more judicious checks and balances in the healthcare realm, which should be good for all, IMO." The average (and I don't want to hear about the outliers - the people who dreamed of going to DO school all their lives and turned down MD programs even though they had MCAT scores of 40 with a 4.0 GPA) DO student is simply someone who didn't get into an MD school and chose the DO route as a way to fulfill their goal of becoming a physician. I have nothing wrong with that, I have friends who've done it. Maybe they were people who partied a little too much early in college, or realized late what career they really wanted. But this crap about DO students being more worldly or somehow having more life experience is just drivel dreamed up by a few people with inferiority complexes and large chips on their shoulders to justify being in DO school. I'm not judging people, if you have your heart set on being a physician then great, good luck to you and I wish you well, whether you're a DO or an MD. Work hard and you can accomplish that goal. But don't sit here and make up excuses like "I got rejected from MD school because they wanted nerds with high scores and couldn't accept people like me with more life experience" or whatever...

 

[oceandocDO]

Behcet,

Calm down chief. My post was not an attempt to impinge on your worldly knowledge or ego. But, I guess I struck a nerve. I dont know what a post like that accomplished, whether you feel threatened because people who didnt work as "hard" as you are considered your "equal", but I simply answered the question posed above with facts, not opinion. Sorry if the answer wasnt to your liking. Everyone has their own story and philosophy of how they should practice medicine, and I guess yours is most important. Sorry if my post offended you. Good luck to you.

 

[womansurg]

oceandocDO, you're an eloquent spokesperson for your colleagues with a lot of good observations and useful information. Don't let some displaced anger dissuade you. This is an emotional topic for a lot of folks; there's been a lot of mud slinging for a long time now. A cool discussion over the facts of the matter is necessarily going to come with some outbursts on an open forum. No biggie. Your points are being heard.

 

[H&P-Stat]

womansurg:

With all due respect, I'm going to have to side with Behcet on this one. In reading oceandocDO's posts (in this thread and in other forums), it's seems clear that his goal has been to instigate an argument, not participate in a debate. I feel that his tone has been condescending from the very beginning and his sarcastic comments were meant to draw the exact reaction from MD students that he got from Behcet. In fact, I'm surprised you've managed to remain so civil considering his remarks and the fact that he quite boldly and arrogantly belittled you and the residents in your program. Perhaps you're just a stronger person that I.

Behcet:

I think we're getting played here. I'm personally washing my hands of this thread. I don't think oceandocDO wants answers, he wants a fight.

oceandocDO:

Whatever helps you sleep at night....

 

[kumar28]

h&p,
After reading this thread pretty carefully it seems that you and Behcet have been instigating an argument. Oceandoc is merely defending the DO profession and I must say he is doing a very good job of it.

Don't CHICKEN out now h&p...anyone can just "walk away"!

I'm looking forward to the continuation of this "debate"

Peace

 

[oceandocDO]

H&P....

I apologize if my posts have been antagonistic towards you or anyone else. They have merely been spirited, not malicious, in my opinion. Dont mistake a little friendly sarcasm for arrogance. I do defend my profession vigorously and I have a right to do that when you question the validity of my degree or my credentials. I would expect the same from you.

I admit I get frustrated when a premed parades out the same old arguement of "you're a D.O., aka... an M.D. reject who's dumber and doesnt deserve my time or respect". Yada yada. When you proclaim that I want a fight and not answers, your "answers" are nothing that havent been flamed before on these boards by premeds, so offering the same product in a different box doesnt fly with me. I ask you to go find all the actual MD graduates to offer advice on the subject, 99% dont feel the same way as you, because many of them work with, or yes, maybe even under, a D.O.

Are averages on the whole at D.O. schools lower than M.D. schools, yes, but not looking at the whole picture of admission demographics is like not looking at the whole patient.

If you would like to continue this debate and maybe we can learn something from each other, feel free, if not, thanks for playing; and yes, I will sleep tonight

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

Earlier in my MS-4 year, I worked closely with a D.O. intern for the first time. For what it's worth, most of my exposure to D.O.'s to that point had been on this board, so at first I wasn't sure what to think. This person ended up being nothing short of outstanding. I was very impressed with his work ethic, background of knowledge, and ICU skills. All the other students that I know who have worked with him have said the same thing. I know he applied to both MD and DO schools for medical school and is now at an MD residency- I'm not sure what his reasons were, but our institution is lucky to have him. I'd guess that his school and his self-motivation have something to do with it- he's a pretty smart guy.

 

[volvulus]

Behcet is right on the mark with his post.

 

[JayDoc06]

I would like someone to clarify for me what are the differences then between the two educational approaches and resulting degrees. If the curriculum is comparable and the clinical training is comparable (as most of you seem to be claiming), and most DO's end up not using their manipulation training once in practice, then what is the difference? Why go to a DO school if you all you do is assimililate into MD residencies and inherit the "MD culture", if there is such a thing.


Just curious.

 

[surge]

Originally posted by JayDoc06
Why go to a DO school if you all you do is assimililate into MD residencies and inherit the "MD culture", if there is such a thing.

Honestly, and I know I'll get flamed, most (please notice I said most, not all) people probably go to a DO school because they are less competitive than most MD schools, but they make you into a doctor. I think to claim this is not a common reason is just silly.

Is there anything wrong with that? No.
Could you be at a disadvantage later? Probably.

But the bottom line is that in the end, the kind of a doctor you make is going to depend on you. If you truly are a slacker and don't have the intellectual capacity, you'll probably be a sh*tty doc, no matter what. But if you work hard and take advantage of all the opportunities given to you, you can be an excellent physician, whether you went to Ross, DMU or WashU. I would again argue that yes, the background and the environment may in itself make it more or less difficult to make the most out of your training, but in the end, I maintain it's gonna be you as a person. This is sort of reminiscient of the debate whether an unknown undergrad education will set you up for failure. While it's probably easier to get certain positions with an Ivy league education, it's certainly not impossible without one. It's all about you as a student, undergraduate or medical.

 

[oceandocDO]

I would like someone to clarify for me what are the differences then between the two educational approaches and resulting degrees. If the curriculum is comparable and the clinical training is comparable (as most of you seem to be claiming), and most DO's end up not using their manipulation training once in practice, then what is the difference? Why go to a DO school if you all you do is assimililate into MD residencies and inherit the "MD culture", if there is such a thing

This topic has been discussed ad nausem in other threads, but your question is not uncommon. The differences in the two are relatively minor these days, the differences are more in training then in actual practice. I used an analogy on another thread that suits this case as well: Think of the D.O. degree and the M.D. degree as 2 separate, yet almost identical neighboring houses. Each house was constructed by a different builder but using the same rough plans. Different mortar and different screws were used to hold it all together. Once built, the 2 neighbors furnished the houses slightly differently according to their own tastes, yet as time progressed, they learned from each other, borrowed and leant tools to one another, etc. From afar or to the layperson, the two houses look very similar, but to the owners, they still look very different. The neighbors may argue about who has the nicer lawn or better car, but at the end of the day, both houses are of equal value, and both are equally resistant to weathering.

Anyway, the point of this analogy is that to a patient (equivalent to the layperson above), both doctors perform equally well, order the same tests, use the same drugs, have similar styles, etc. However, to the doctor (equivalent to the home owners above), the practice styles are not exactly alike, and this slight difference is what often allows the doctor to practice in his/her comfort zone. I realize this may be getting a bit deep, and premed students usually want cold hard facts layered in p-values, but you'll have to do a bit of thinking on this one. As you start to develop a practice style, you may find that your philosophy is very much similar to a D.O. mentality, on paper, that's almost expected these days, as the trend in medicine, MD or DO, is to practice more holistically. D.O.s were just the first to carry the "holistic flag", so-to-speak.

Having family members who are MDs and myself experiencing a D.O. training, I've found through discussions with them the largest difference in philosophy is that the allopathic curriculum doesnt really have a philosophy, or at least one that's been illustrated to date. D.O.s are taught to be generalists first and specialists second, and IMO, there's no better specialist than one who has a firm grasp on primary care. This ideology is manifested in such things as OMM and the osteopathic rotating internship.

OMM isnt the basis of the profession, it's merely a tool to help one reinforce the idea of the body as a unit, not just a collection of organs. 95% of D.O.s dont use it in practice, yet their 300+ more hours of training in biomechanics, physiology and anatomy will help make a D.O. a better generalist, on paper at least. OMM is physical therapy, both use the same techniques with the same principles.

The osteopathic rotating internship was actually modeled after the MD rotating internship that used to be mandatory for MDs 20 years ago, but the MDs did away with it as they became more specialized and less patient in their education. However, they dont discount it's efficacy. 2 NYCOM grads who are going to harvard anesthiology this year were encouraged by harvard to do the rotating internship at a hospital of their choice that offers it because they recognize the great well-rounded training it provides.

I'll shut up now. Hope this helps. If not, I tried. good luck.

 

[Green912]

Why go to a DO school if you all you do is assimililate into MD residencies and inherit the "MD culture", if there is such a thing.

As a future D.O. I am already looking towards an allopathic residency for two reasons. The first and foremost is exposure. Allopathic teaching hospitals tend to be busier then their osteopathic counterparts, and assuming I stay with my goal of emergency medicine I would definetly prefer to train at a busy service. The second reason, which may be unique in my case, is that after med-school I want to return to my home town therefore limiting my choices. Nothing to do with desiring anyones "culture".

 

[Neurogirl]

Most of the people responding to this thread are med students or even worse, premed students. If you want to know how MDs feel about DOs then you should ask THEM...not the puppies in the premed or med forums. In the real world, most people don't care whether their collegues are DOs, MDs or IMGs. They only care about working with the smartest, hardest working, and most compasionate physicians. Sorry to be condenscending...just stating the obvious.

 

[rbassdo]

Originally posted by Behcet
this is all crap. DOs spend a lot of time claiming how you are just as good as MDs and trying to get equality and respect, and use ridiculous things to try to prove this point, yet still use phrases like "D.O.s will never outnumber MDs, but they will provide the country with a more judicious checks and balances in the healthcare realm, which should be good for all, IMO." The average (and I don't want to hear about the outliers - the people who dreamed of going to DO school all their lives and turned down MD programs even though they had MCAT scores of 40 with a 4.0 GPA) DO student is simply someone who didn't get into an MD school and chose the DO route as a way to fulfill their goal of becoming a physician. I have nothing wrong with that, I have friends who've done it. Maybe they were people who partied a little too much early in college, or realized late what career they really wanted. But this crap about DO students being more worldly or somehow having more life experience is just drivel dreamed up by a few people with inferiority complexes and large chips on their shoulders to justify being in DO school. I'm not judging people, if you have your heart set on being a physician then great, good luck to you and I wish you well, whether you're a DO or an MD. Work hard and you can accomplish that goal. But don't sit here and make up excuses like "I got rejected from MD school because they wanted nerds with high scores and couldn't accept people like me with more life experience" or whatever...

Pretty valid points made here, although I am one of those "outliers" who did the unthinkable and chose DO over MD. There may be more of us than you think. After all...not all MD programs, available to many good students, are all they're cracked up to be.

 

[Plinko]

My view on this age old argument is that issues such as these all boil down to the concept of territoriality. Those in power (mostly MDs in this scenario) in any industry are going to want to hold onto their status as being a member of the "higher ups." I think that is only natural and they cannot be blamed for it. The one immutable truth however is that the tide is definitely changing, and when the time comes when those chiming in here are in the middle of their careers they will have to assimlate their beliefs to accomodate those educated under a different set of training modalities. And while I do agree that many DO students probably would have gone to an MD school had they not been rejected, I think that is summarily changing with each passing year. For example, the Texas medical schools, both MD and DO, do not use AMCAS or AACOMAS. Instead the use their own application procedure, TMDSAS. Many people simply apply to all the Texas medical schools when filling out their forms, and take into account much less the degree ultimately earned from one school to the next. As a result you will see the same GPAs and MCAT scores across all of Texas (MD or DO) with the exception of Baylor (non-TMDSAS school) and Southwestern. I would imagine the same is the case in places like Michigan (MSU), Virginia (Virginia Tech), and Oklahoma (OSU), which are all states with well respected state institutions with an osteopathic medical school. If you crunch the admission numbers at those schools and compare them with their in-state MD counterpart schools I think you won't see much difference.

My father is an oral surgeon (DDS) and came up through the ranks when MDs did all the Oral Maxillofacial surgery. He and his colleagues had to fight like hell to get on staff at local hosptials. The MDs had no incentive to hand over that realm of medicine to someone they viewed to be inferior in their training. So the oral surgeon DDSs added extra requirements to their residency to enable them to work and do surgery in their office, thus taking some of the power structure away from the MDs. Soon after, the MDs took notice, and sure enough it was docs such as my father that were on the council of physcians who voted prospective physicians on or off the staff of his hospital. To his admitted shame, once he was in a position of power he voted "nay" to many a DO's application to his hospital. Ultimately, one group of DOs sued the hospital and won. Now he says that the DOs on that same council of physicians routinely black ball internationally trained docs and podiatrists from getting on staff at their hospital.

In short, I think the DO vs. MD argument all comes down to an emotional response to fear of the unknown, as evidenced by the heated comments on this page. Taking some of the power out of the hands of those that have held it for so long is always going to be a process steeped in unpleasantries, and I think that is why we are seeing some of the nasty comments laid down here. Ultimately, however, one fact we cannot side step is that all (DO and MD) at some point down the road are going to have work and intermingle with one another on some level, and the less successful we are in doing that, the unfortuante truth is that it is going to be the patients that suffer for it.

 

[Careofme]

"Think of the D.O. degree and the M.D. degree as 2 separate, yet almost identical neighboring houses. Each house was constructed by a different builder but using the same rough plans. Different mortar and different screws were used to hold it all together. Once built, the 2 neighbors furnished the houses slightly differently according to their own tastes, yet as time progressed, they learned from each other, borrowed and leant tools to one another, etc. From afar or to the layperson, the two houses look very similar, but to the owners, they still look very different. The neighbors may argue about who has the nicer lawn or better car, but at the end of the day, both houses are of equal value, and both are equally resistant to weathering. "


oceandocDO, Such a great analogy!!!

 

[drchris33]

Well I have been reading this forum and I had to jump in too. I am a first year at the Univeristy of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine, and I admit, I applied to both MD and DO schools because I just wanted to be a doctor. But after talking/shadowing with DOs plus analyzing the different curriculums as well as the incorporation of OPP/OMM/OMT, I am so glad I chose the DO profession. At our school, we have a systems based curriculum instead of the basic sciences approach. Our schedule is broken down into Foundations of Medicine (hodge podge from cancer to histology); Musculoskeletal, Skin/Blood/Lymph, Cardiovascular, Respiratory, and GI. That is just the first year.


What is really cool about our curriculum as well, is that we get so much clinical incorporation into our classes. We have so many practicing docs lecturing to us and clinical scenarios on our exams to get us ready for boards. At first, it was tough to get used to, but now I wouldn't want to do it any other way.

OMM is addicting as well. We have learned so much in our first year; we adjust each other every day. After long hours of studying, we get sore necks/backs, so we just go to a table, and snap, crackle, pop and we are fixed!!

I am not condonig MDs at all because I have worked with a lot of MDs before coming to medical school. If a patient goes into an office, most of them have no idea of a difference.

Well that is my input into the conversation. I am sure I am going to get shot down for something, but I just had to put in some words

Chris

 

[Tammy]

OceanDoc,

I think your posts have been very eloquently written based in fact and reason.

I am a first year at UHS in Kansas City. I chose UHS over MD and other DO schools because I fell in love with the school, not the DO or MD degree, but the school itself. As Chris mentioned, we have what is called "Genesis Curriculum." We learn biochemistry, histology, pharmacology, pathology, anatomy, etc. as it relates to each system. At the end of the six weeks we spend with each system, we have a comprehensive picture of what is normal vs. abnormal, the clinical presentation, the treatment, etc. Everything is integrated and constructed very carefully by our DO, MD and PhD professors so that we will be adequately prepared for our rotations. For me, it just made sense. I also was impressed by the low attrition rates, high board scores, high rate of students who obtained their first choice for rotations, etc.

For any pre-med students reading this forum, I would highly recommend that you visit many schools, DO and MD alike. Make your decision about the school you will attend based on personal experience with that school, not erroneous preconceptions about the quality of education, validity of a degree, a post on SDN, or anything else. You will get the best education in a school that feels most comfortable to you. Only you know what is important to you and you must seek out the answers yourself.

OK, DO-haters, bring it on! lol

- Tammy

 

[kpax18]

To me it is laughable how some might hold the view of "DO's cant make it into MD school therefore they are 2nd rated docs"
The truth of the matter is that DOs are practicing and they are growing. Whether some people like the idea of DO's existence or not, DOs are handling human health and human lives.
And to think that if DOs are really all those 2nd rated rejects from MD schools, well, then I should applaud the DO schools for making these "underacheiving" students competent doctors...
And even more so to those students that make it through and are making wonders in health care....

 

[LovelyRita]

Someone's honest question how MD's view DO's has turned into a debate of insecurities.

I appreciate OceanDoc's analogy.

We live (and learn) in the USA, land of the free, full of diversity. The MD/DO thing wouldn't have even come about (over a century ago) if this wasn't the case. If we lived in a communist society, there might be one school, one philosophy.

I wouldn't sweat it now. Just learn all you can and work toward what your patients are going to want from you someday---be the BEST doctor you can possibly be.

M.

 

[8744]

OK. I'm an MD medical student and you DO guys have convinced me.

Can we still make fun of chiropractors?

 

[Bull's eye]

Panda Bear.... You Rock.. I love that comment.
Here is a weird situation. I went to UHS (DO). My roommate went to KU Med (MD). We always had a running joke picking on every stereotype you could imagine. For example we studied path together and if I didn't know the answer I would say... Oh.....just crack his back and make it all better. If he didn't know an answer he would say in his most arrogant and berating tone possible some mumbo jumbo mixed medical terminology answer that was nonsense and would say If you went to MD school you would learn how to do that. Anyway, we had a blast in school and always made fun of each other. I think that the real world is very similar. Point being .......
Nobody cares. (well Pre meds care)

 

[lattimer13]

Originally posted by Neurogirl
Most of the people responding to this thread are med students or even worse, premed students. If you want to know how MDs feel about DOs then you should ask THEM...not the puppies in the premed or med forums. In the real world, most people don't care whether their collegues are DOs, MDs or IMGs. They only care about working with the smartest, hardest working, and most compasionate physicians. Sorry to be condenscending...just stating the obvious.

totally TRUE. Neurogirl is telling it how it is. I'll be entering med school this fall and I'm currently working in a busy Emergency Department right now and there are 2 DO's in the group of ER docs with the rest MD's. they all treat each other exactly the same as does the staff and the patients.

from my experience on SDN, most premeds are idiots about this, med students have a better idea, and actual docs really know how it is.

 

[Mav]

DO: mostly rejected MD applicants with subpar MCAT/GPA scores

DO: most common "alternative" to people with lower MCAT scores

DO: schools with students who have lower MCAT/GPA means

DO: COMLEX easier than Steps, MD boards

Simple really. Unless any DO can show me otherwise, that in my book provides the reason why the MD program continues to remain superior.

 

[nanato]

bla bla bla bla bla...
let me lay it on thick....
There is a HUGE difference between MD's and DO's... whether the DO's want to admit it.
I graduated undergrade from the University of California school system which all you know pound for pound gives you the same education as ivy league schools. I had a gpa well over 3.5 and mcats over 30....and all the other bull**** to go along with your applications, ..publications, letters, numerous volunteer activities... bla bla.. but I didn't get accepted into an MD program. granted the competition to get into UC's is slash throat, the shady private schools in the east didn't even pan out. so i got accepted to the island schools and to DO schools.... so i chose the osteo route because i didn't want to be an fmg.
scored over 90% on my usmle's -hungover i made add. graduated middle of the pack in school, nothing special but the education or lack there of comes in the clinical years. No DO can look you in the eye and say that they have a great teaching hospital with all the subspecialties.... all the programs have "affiliations" with allopathic facilities that make your 3rd and 4th year somewhat respectable. That is the bottom truth coming from a DO....there are ******* MD's just as there are ******* DO's.... everywhere.
I've done rotations at USF, Cleveland Clinic, NYC and pound for pound if you read and spend time at home increasing your own medical knowledge then the two are equal... I would school MD interns when i was a 4th year... not because I'm some genius or a DO but because i put the effort into being a hard working medical student....that's the bottom line... work hard and shut the F up.
if any MD ever made a comment to me about my education or my being a DO.... there are a few things I would say:
I scored better on YOUR boards than 90% of YOUR students
I could have had (and did) my 6 year old cousin fill out my application to St. George/AUC/ROSS and get accepted (which I did)
....and last but not least I could make your wife feel real good with my hands alone...
THe only way DO's will ever be looked at as complete equals is when the dinosaurs running the **** realize we need large hospitals, university based with 100's of full time teaching staff in dozens of specialties with millions of dollars of research grants available to our students... untill then we will have to do rotations in BFE and take advantage of other larger center.
and that's coming from a DO.

 

[Su4n2]

ok, i never get involved in these stupid argument, but recently i experienced something that i want to share/

i went to a v.expensive private school in brooklyn for high school (on scholarship) the people who attend this school and live in this community range from very well off to incredibly wealthy. recently, i have spent 2 years working rthere once a week teaching chess. whenever i heard anyone talk about any problems, they always said that the best doctor to go to was Dr.X, and everyone ranted and raved about him how amazing he was and how his office was open till midnight cause he is always so busy.
when i decidedto apply to osteo school, i needed someone to shaddow and my friend reccomended this very same doctor who turned out to be a DO. when i got to his office, all over the wall he had awards from New York magazine for being one of the top physicians of the year. This is a survey that is sent out to local hospitals and doctors who rank their peers. Every year he made the list. He really was a v.nice and caring doctor. he gave people time and took their calls and that's why they all think he is so amazing. some of the people who are his patients have been with him for thirty years. when i asked him how patients feel about his degree, he said that in fourty years of practice, he has never been asked a question about it. people came to him by word of mouth and they stayed.

what is the point of this v.long story? the only people who care about this stupid argument are premeds/med students or people who in general need to look down on others. it doesn't matter.

finally, to those who really think less od DO students, keep it to yourself. Your words are v.hurtful to people who are trying to work hard and achieve something. I would imagine that as future physicians we should think about how our actions make others feel. peace. susan

 

[kpax18]

Originally posted by Mav
DO: mostly rejected MD applicants with subpar MCAT/GPA scores

DO: most common "alternative" to people with lower MCAT scores

DO: schools with students who have lower MCAT/GPA means

DO: COMLEX easier than Steps, MD boards

Simple really. Unless any DO can show me otherwise, that in my book provides the reason why the MD program continues to remain superior.

If MD programs are so superior, then there wouldn't be DOs, and better yet, no other health professionals...

 

[msgbueno]

MD's are wannabe's

DO's pimp hoes

 

[oceandocDO]

DO: COMLEX easier than Steps, MD boards

That's why the top score on the USMLE for the past 2 years has been a D.O. student. Hmmmm...

Actually, all the people I know that have taken both the COMLEX and the USMLE have done better on the USMLE. It's not because one's easier than the other, it's more because the USMLE is a better written test and easier to take (shorter, on computer, etc).

The COMLEX I is a very clinically-oriented test compared to the USMLE I. You can parade out all the stats you want, but it's apples and oranges. Step Is are not the same test! I guarantee if you took a bunch of second year MD students and handed them the COMLEX and even threw out the OMM, you'd have a much lower pass rate than D.O. students. Why? Because it's not the same test and anyone who's studying like it's the same is in for a rude awakening!

 

[UCLA2000]

Originally posted by nanato
....and last but not least I could make your wife feel real good with my hands alone...

I betcha I could make you wife feel real good with my hands alone too!

 

[Dr. Lector]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
That's why the top score on the USMLE for the past 2 years has been a D.O. student. Hmmmm...

I've seen several DO students qoute this, do you guys have a link to where this information comes from? I'd like to know how they prepared for the USMLE.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Might wanna call the USMLE test development faculty and ask them. They sent a team of faculty to Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine last year to research why their students rocked the USMLE!!!

 

[eddieberetta]

Originally posted by PACtoDOC
Might wanna call the USMLE test development faculty and ask them. They sent a team of faculty to Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine last year to research why their students rocked the USMLE!!!

I'm sure they had their theories

 

[ramsestiger]

Wow, this is quite a thread. Here are the two points I want to add:

1. It's really amazing, the things one does to elevate his/her self-esteem. Really, both M.D. and D.O. physicians make a lot of money, help human beings on a daily basis, enjoy a very morally rewarding career, and receive a very high level of respect from the general public (I would guess that less than 1 % of the American population has a doctorate degree). Yeah, maybe osteopaths should go up to optometrists and try to condescend them when we see them at the hospitals!

2. If an M.D. really maintained a patronizing attitude toward a fellow physician (D.O.), then he/she is truly not deserving of an M.D. or a D.O. The goal is SELF-Actualization, NOT beating everyone else around you in some sort of a race. I think it's fair if there's a distinction made when hiring is taking place between the different reputations of academic institutions (I'm sure we all know Harvard Medical School would trump a lot of schools). However, it's just plain silly to behave and treat a person that you THINK is less qualified very differently than other co-workers. That's stupid and wrong.