Osteopathic Neurosurgery Residencies

[Kujo]

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I was hoping others who will be applying to DO neurosurgery residencies could make some brief comments about the 10 programs out there. I understand that the LIJ (NYCOM) program has been described as "the best." The new programs at ARMC (Arrowhead Regional Medical Center) in CA is supposed to be strong as well. What about the new program at CCOM? I'm also curious about the programs in MI and OH as well. Lastly, is PCOM any good?

thanks

 

[Idiopathic]

A 4th year at my school 'matched' at Chicago this year, and he is pretty stoked about it. If I had my choice right now, I would probably rank:

1. LIJ: area, reputation, experience
2. Arrowhead: trauma!!!
3. Columbus: pretty much because I have heard good thing about Columbus

I think this speaks volumes to what you ask, because there just isnt a lot of information about DO NS residencies.

Honestly, if I do decide on NS, I wont turn anyone down

I dont believe these programs participate in the AOA match, either, so it is all about impressing the PD/nurses/residents, etc. on your visiting clerkship.

 

[Kujo]

A 4th year at my school 'matched' at Chicago this year, and he is pretty stoked about it. If I had my choice right now, I would probably rank:

1. LIJ: area, reputation, experience
2. Arrowhead: trauma!!!
3. Columbus: pretty much because I have heard good thing about Columbus

I think this speaks volumes to what you ask, because there just isnt a lot of information about DO NS residencies.

Honestly, if I do decide on NS, I wont turn anyone down

I dont believe these programs participate in the AOA match, either, so it is all about impressing the PD/nurses/residents, etc. on your visiting clerkship.

I've heard the same about LIJ...on scutwork.com it's labeled as "pretty much blows every other DO NS program out of the water in terms of exposure and didactics...arrowhead I hear is good...I know somebody at Grandview and they've got it REALLY rough over there...the call can be unbearable at times...The IL program at BroMenn takes 2 residents per year which is GOOD...good luck Idiopathic if you decide on NS...

 

[cooldreams]

i am also interested in this, as an osteopathic student. how do these compare with allopathic ns residencies?? are they competitive to get into (somewhat or EXTREMELY ??)

thanks guys... yea i am having a tough time finding more out about DO ns progs...

 

[Idiopathic]

Considering about ~30 or so DO's really gun for NS and there are 9-11 spots each year, it works out about the same as allo, numerically.

 

[cooldreams]

are they comperable to allopathic spots?? or are just some places very good, and others ok?? or...??

 

[DrQuinn]

Your call as a neurosurgery resident is going to suck no matter where you go. I had to do a month of neurosurgery during my internship. Ugh! Those guys are so overworked.

 

[cooldreams]

Your call as a neurosurgery resident is going to suck no matter where you go. I had to do a month of neurosurgery during my internship. Ugh! Those guys are so overworked.

im pretty interested in neuro stuff though. guess i got started through martial arts, dood ive knocked ppl out through lightly tapping pressure points!! itz kewl.

anyways, im interested in this, and right now im not interested in much of anything outside of anatomy/medicine. hmm what if that changed? would a position as a ns be flexible enough to allow me to have a family life if i changed my mind on that later on??

also, i was more interested in the quality of the ns programs, and how they compare to allopathic programs. i have already seen/heard of very good ones, just wondering how the general concensus is on the group??..

thanks everyone!

 

[VentdependenT]

People don't go into NS thinking they'll have much of a family life. Actually they don't care. They live it, breath it, and love it above all else. Or so it seems.

Its tough as hell to land an osteo spot. Nearly impossible to land allo.

 

[doc0875]

Avoid Doctors Hospital in Columbus. Very over rated. Their reputation seems to carry them, but it is not justified anymore. They have been sued many times by ex-residents that have either left or been terminated.

 

[Dr_sax]

I'm not sure how well his residency program is going, but the DO in charge of the NS at BroMenn is a cool guy. I worked with him a few years back and I really enjoyed it.

 

[cooldreams]

can you do neuro research as an fp or some other specialty, or do you have to go into ns??

 

[Fermata]

can you do neuro research as an fp or some other specialty, or do you have to go into ns??

Exactly what are you interested in researching?

 

[Idiopathic]

Nearly impossible to land allo.

An osteopath has never matched allopathic NS. One transferred in, I believe, to UC-Davis.

 

[Idiopathic]

Avoid Doctors Hospital in Columbus. Very over rated. Their reputation seems to carry them, but it is not justified anymore. They have been sued many times by ex-residents that have either left or been terminated.

Thats upsetting, I was looking forward to considering this program. Is there any info out there on this?

 

[Docgeorge]

The current Resident at UC-Davis transferred in. But Jeffry Mibbs matched into UC-Davis. He graduated a few years back and is now in practice in Chico, Ca.

I also heard of a guy at Univ of Arkansas.

 

[Docgeorge]

Also if I'm not mistaken, the guy in charge of pediatric NS at Childrens Graduated from SUNY Buffalo's program back in the 80's.

 

[RBar]

Another program to look at is Providence Hospital in Southfield, MI
The website is http://www.providence-hospital.org
Follow the medical education links



Ryan

 

[bobo]

An osteopath has never matched allopathic NS. One transferred in, I believe, to UC-Davis.

This is without a doubt 100% untrue. You really should have your facts straight before stating something as absolutely true. Anyhow, how would you know this anyway. You really do a disservice to the others reading this board. Everyone who reads this board should realize that ridiculous claptrap is constantly posted here.

 

[Idiopathic]

Show me who and where. I have looked at the NS match lists for the last 3 or 4 years, I believe, and have yet to see a DO on there. Now, to say that one didnt get a spot is probably not true (you will notice I did not say that) but I have seen no evidence that one has ever matched into a spot.

After reading your previous posts, I see that you are mainly a one-line dingus who prides himself in name-calling. Why not be constructive. It would actually make me feel better if you could prove me wrong, so I just wish you would try and go that route rather than being a dick about things.

 

[bobo]

Show me who and where. I have looked at the NS match lists for the last 3 or 4 years, I believe, and have yet to see a DO on there. Now, to say that one didnt get a spot is probably not true (you will notice I did not say that) but I have seen no evidence that one has ever matched into a spot.

After reading your previous posts, I see that you are mainly a one-line dingus who prides himself in name-calling. Why not be constructive. It would actually make me feel better if you could prove me wrong, so I just wish you would try and go that route rather than being a dick about things.

That's pretty funny. According to you, I pride myself in name-calling, yet I am called an dingus and a dick in the same paragraph. I merely pointed out that your statement that "An osteopath has never matched allopathic NS" is entirely untrue. Which it is. Please take your panties out of the wad that they seem to be in.

The proof is righthere. Scroll down to the physician at the bottom of the page. Although the letters after his name read MD, he is a DO. If you don't believe me, call PCOM, his residency program or check page 193 of the 2002 PCOM yearbook. So do us all a favor, shut your pie-hole about things you are obviously misinformed about.

bobo

 

[Docgeorge]

Did'nt I say that Mibbs matched into UC Davis. This was about 10 years ago now. He Graduated in 2001 if I'm not mistaken. I even told you where he practices.

 

[daveyboy]

That's pretty funny. According to you, I pride myself in name-calling, yet I am called an dingus and a dick in the same paragraph. I merely pointed out that your statement that "An osteopath has never matched allopathic NS" is entirely untrue. Which it is. Please take your panties out of the wad that they seem to be in.

The proof is righthere. Scroll down to the physician at the bottom of the page. Although the letters after his name read MD, he is a DO. If you don't believe me, call PCOM, his residency program or check page 193 of the 2002 PCOM yearbook. So do us all a favor, shut your pie-hole about things you are obviously misinformed about.

bobo

Maybe the word "never" has multiple meanings?

Seriously, statements like that really do cause harm to the image of the proffesion. Making a knee-jerk assumption that a DO has never matched allo NS brings a huge amount of negative implication. I am glad that there were a couple people to point out that it was totally false!

 

[Idiopathic]

That's pretty funny. According to you, I pride myself in name-calling, yet I am called an dingus and a dick in the same paragraph. I merely pointed out that your statement that "An osteopath has never matched allopathic NS" is entirely untrue. Which it is. Please take your panties out of the wad that they seem to be in.

The proof is righthere. Scroll down to the physician at the bottom of the page. Although the letters after his name read MD, he is a DO. If you don't believe me, call PCOM, his residency program or check page 193 of the 2002 PCOM yearbook. So do us all a favor, shut your pie-hole about things you are obviously misinformed about.

bobo

Trust me, Im excited...I hope to be wrong on this matter. Still no proof that any DO has ever 'matched' allopathic NS. Signed outside the match, maybe...transferred in, sure...but I still have my doubts.

It really has nothing to do with the image of the profession though...It is one of the most competitive programs out there, and each year, students from the best schools in the country (including osteopathic schools) dont match NS. It shouldnt be an extreme statement to say that it is unbelievably difficult to accomplish this feat. Perhaps my saying that it has never happened, when it might have happened twice (might) was excessive. I would still like to see some evidence. I scoured the last three years of match lists for even a sniff of a match and I couldnt find one. Also have conversed with several people intimately familiar with the field.

I suppose I can fall on my sword and take one for the team here. 'You're right'...why dont you go back to calling everyone 'stupid', 'clueless' and 'whining'? Start with me, I can take it

 

[cooldreams]

there's the spirit!

 

[bobo]

Try scouring just a little bit more.

 

[cooldreams]

hmm interesting... hehe

Sabino D'Agostino (PCOM) -- MUSC

 

[cooldreams]

are the quality of all of the osteopathic ns residencies just that much worse than allopathic, or just that its not as "cool" to do them??

after residency, do the osteopathic and allopathic have about the same chances at jobs (private sector) or is there favortism there as well??

 

[Idiopathic]

are the quality of all of the osteopathic ns residencies just that much worse than allopathic, or just that its not as "cool" to do them??

I dont understand this. DO's do not get allo ns residencies with any degree of regularity (maybe not never ) so what does this mean? Any osteopath who wants to do ns has to strongly consider the osteo residencies before even thinking about allo ones. The competition is too stiff.

With that said, I have heard some negative things about most all of the osteo ns programs, but negative things can be said about all programs, so we make of that what we will. I have heard positive things about LIJ and Arrowhead, and havent looked at the others very hard, yet.

 

[cooldreams]

eh... statisically its tough for DO or MD's to get in. but still possible if you are determined enough. it does look easier for a DO to get into a DO residency than an MD one, so that is why i asked the above questions.

 

[Bull's eye]

Idio, if you apply to the right places (enough places) you would land an n-surg spot with your numbers (assuming you want NS), no problem. Then you will be "the guy" everyone wants to talk to. Good Luck bro, I'm pulling for ya.

 

[Docgeorge]

Bull's eye where did you end up matching into?

 

[Idiopathic]

Idio, if you apply to the right places (enough places) you would land an n-surg spot with your numbers (assuming you want NS), no problem. Then you will be "the guy" everyone wants to talk to. Good Luck bro, I'm pulling for ya.

Well, I appreciate the support, its what I have always wanted to do. I also know that bobo, in his own way, supports me also

Ill let you know how it goes, those of you that are interested.

 

[cooldreams]

im quite interested. good luck.

 

[doc0875]

Thats upsetting, I was looking forward to considering this program. Is there any info out there on this?

Doctors Hospital in Columbus, Ohio somehow still carries itself on past reputation. It is a place that has definitely had a drastic "fall from grace" in recent years. Many, many students, interns, residents leave Doctors bitter & unhappy at their experience there. The hospital & DME have actually been sued several times. Ask Dr. Hilliard (the DME) about the lengthy law suit by an ex-ENT track intern by the name of Vern Reynolds, D.O. Trust me, look elsewhere for any D.O. training.

 

[RBar]

It is good to see so many people interested in neurosurgery. Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation out there. If you are seriously interested in pursuing this field, or any field for that matter, I encourage to go to the source. This site is an excellent resource but do not rely on this alone. Do not be afraid to contact these programs, their residents and their program directors. It may be difficult at times but generally you can eventually get in touch with someone. I am currently a DO neurosurgery resident and would be happy to try and help out the best I can. I have been there and realize it can be a very frustrating process. I'm currently on my neurology rotation, so I have "a little time" to play around on the internet. Good luck to all of you

Ryan Barrett, D.O.
Neyurosurgery Resident (PGY-4)
Providence Hospital and Medical Centers
Southfiled, MI
http://www.providence-hospital.org

 

[RBar]

It is good to see so many people interested in neurosurgery. Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation out there. If you are seriously interested in pursuing this field, or any field for that matter, I encourage to go to the source. This site is an excellent resource but do not rely on this alone. Do not be afraid to contact these programs, their residents and their program directors. It may be difficult at times but generally you can eventually get in touch with someone. I am currently a DO neurosurgery resident and would be happy to try and help out the best I can. I have been there and realize it can be a very frustrating process. I'm currently on my neurology rotation, so I have "a little time" to play around on the internet. Good luck to all of you

Ryan Barrett, D.O.
Neurosurgery Resident (PGY-4)
Providence Hospital and Medical Centers
Southfiled, MI
http://www.providence-hospital.org

 

[cooldreams]

doc0875... you are posting the same thing all over the place... what gives man...

 

[jdaasbo]

there was a CCOM grad (class of 96 or 97?) who landed a neurosurg spot at NYU. I am not sure of the sordid details of who he sold his soul to, but it happened.

I also remember seeing one at an allo program in california too a few years ago.

Anything is possible.

 

[novacek88]

are the quality of all of the osteopathic ns residencies just that much worse than allopathic, or just that its not as "cool" to do them??

after residency, do the osteopathic and allopathic have about the same chances at jobs (private sector) or is there favortism there as well??

They are that much worse. It's not just reputation. The AOA doesn't invest enough money in the quality of these programs. They would prefer to open new schools instead.

I think for the rare fields like radiology,the reputation of the program ceases to be an issue since those positions are so sought after in general. But if you are doing primary care like peds, it matters what program you came out of. Any University based system is what you should aim for particularly if you are doing primary care.

 

[novacek88]

I think DO's can match in any of these fields. Just remember that beyond the numbers, you need published research and great LOR's from known authors. All the DO's that matched in any ridiculously competitive allo field had more than just the numbers. Oh, they had the numbers don't get me wrong but they also had some wicked research and LOR's.

Research is what separates people in the most competitive fields. Everyone in fields like Neurosurgery has amazing numbers. But not all of them have amazing research. If you want to be the rare DO that makes it then start setting up some research.

 

[RBar]

I must disagree witn Novacek 88. Just because a neurosurgery program is a "DO program" does not automatically make it "much worse" than an MD program. You have to view each institution and each program separately. This goes for any specialty. There are several osteopathic neurosurgery programs that are quite strong. Speaking as a 4th year neurosurgery resident with personal experience at several neurosurgery programs (both MD and DO) I can attest to the fact that there are strong and weak programs in both the MD and DO profession. As always, any students with a genuine interest in pursuing neurosurgery please feel free to contact me. I am always willing to help your quest to gather information in any way I can. Just be patient becuase I can be quite busy at times and there may be a delay in resonding.

Ryan Barrett, DO

 

[novacek88]

I must disagree witn Novacek 88. Just because a neurosurgery program is a "DO program" does not automatically make it "much worse" than an MD program. You have to view each institution and each program separately. This goes for any specialty. There are several osteopathic neurosurgery programs that are quite strong. Speaking as a 4th year neurosurgery resident with personal experience at several neurosurgery programs (both MD and DO) I can attest to the fact that there are strong and weak programs in both the MD and DO profession. As always, any students with a genuine interest in pursuing neurosurgery please feel free to contact me. I am always willing to help your quest to gather information in any way I can. Just be patient becuase I can be quite busy at times and there may be a delay in resonding.

Ryan Barrett, DO

My mistake, I didn't read the ns part of his phrase. I thought he was asking about DO programs in general. For a field like neurosurgery or anything else that is ultra competitive, I don't think you should be concerned with the quality of the program because it really doesn't matter what program you go to. Neurosurgery is neurosurgery. If you can match into it, that is good. It can be in the middle of Death Valley and you should still go there. Furthermore, I'm not a Neurosurgery resident like Ryan so I will defer to him as he obviously knows more.

I don't think this question should be asked if someone is trying to match into neurosurgery, derm, radiology etc. You would be lucky to match in any hospital offering such a program whether it is an MD or DO program. The only time you should ask about the quality of an MD vs. DO field is when you are talking about less competitive fields like primary care in which you will realistically have some say as to where you can do your residency.

 

[VentdependenT]

My mistake, I didn't read the ns part of his phrase. I thought he was asking about DO programs in general. For a field like neurosurgery or anything else that is ultra competitive, I don't think you should be concerned with the quality of the program because it really doesn't matter what program you go to. Neurosurgery is neurosurgery. If you can match into it, that is good. It can be in the middle of Death Valley and you should still go there. Furthermore, I'm not a Neurosurgery resident like Ryan so I will defer to him as he obviously knows more.

I don't think this question should be asked if someone is trying to match into neurosurgery, derm, radiology etc. You would be lucky to match in any hospital offering such a program whether it is an MD or DO program. The only time you should ask about the quality of an MD vs. DO field is when you are talking about less competitive fields like primary care in which you will realistically have some say as to where you can do your residency.

You should ALWAYS be concerned with the quality of program you are going to attend.