Osteopathic Political Ideology

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Dubbya

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Hey guys,
How would you judge the overall osteopaths political ideology? I am just finishing up my MPH - where the mainstream ideology is a tad to the right of Marx. I have heard the Osteos are somewhat more liberal than Allos, but what would you say? Not that it really matters to my medical education - but maybe we can start up a firey debate.
 
Well, with a screen name like Dubbya--I guess we know which side of the fence you are on...? 😉

I think it's pretty hard to generalize--just as it is with any large, heterogeneous group of people. My school is extremely conservative, probably more so than most of the allo schools in TX. Most of the DOs I've met seem like pretty middle of the road folks, however.

But if you wanna start somethin'....

Let's talk about how GWB is going to pay for that health plan of his, and how many (or few) people it's going to cover...?
 
I plan on attending OSU COM in Tulsa. While I don't know the "politically ideology" of OSU COM, I can tell you what it is here in the Tulsa area. Very conservative. For those at OSU COM who are from northeastern Oklahoma, I'd say odds are they're conservative. At any rate, I guess my answer is that it just depends on where the student came from. Though, I'm sure certain schools do attract a larger percentage of one type over the other: ie. Berkeley probably attracts very large percentages liberal students, while Oral Roberts attracts very large percentages of conservative. I guess that it can also depend partly on the political climate where the school is located, whether the school has a religious affiliation, the founding principles of the school (and whether the school still adheres to those principles)...any number of things.
 
Actually my first initial is W, so my friends started calling me that before George W was elected - but either way, you guessed my political point of view appropriately! I would agree with the previous poster - geography will probably play the largest role.
 
Sophie,
I assume you are talking about the new Medicare bill? The Medicare Discount Cards are going to help the folks that really need some assistance. I'm actually doing a presentation on the cards tommorrow for a journal club. They will succeed if the Dems (among others) don't scare half the seniors from getting them. Placing some transparency in the pharmeceutical market will go further than people think to bring prices down in the long run. I think we should give the discount cards some more time to work before implemented the dreaded full coverage in 08.
 
I guess I am concerned that the Bush plan costs the most and does the least of all the healthcare plans of the presidential candidates. I need to check my facts as they stand now, but as of last March, the proposed plan that cost the least and covered the most uninsured was that of Dennis Kucinich. Kerry's plan from what I had read at that point was less expensive and covered more than Bush's, however.

What concerns me is not that I might make less money than docs did 10 years ago, but that our current system simply will buckle under the weight (literally) of a public that is getting sicker and sicker with insurance that is more and more expensive. The uninsured are a HUGE problem, and we are all paying the price. The insurance and drug lobbies have Bush and our lawmakers in their hot little hands, just where they want them. We are going to be in the middle of a huge mess in a few years...I hope we are ready...
 
sophiejane said:
I guess I am concerned that the Bush plan costs the most and does the least of all the healthcare plans of the presidential candidates. I need to check my facts as they stand now, but as of last March, the proposed plan that cost the least and covered the most uninsured was that of Dennis Kucinich. Kerry's plan from what I had read at that point was less expensive and covered more than Bush's, however.

With all due respect, if you actually believe the costs the candidates throw out there, you're a little naive. First law of government (no matter the party in power): it'll cost more and do less than advertised.

BTW, ask the good folks of Cleveland about how great an administrator Kucinich is.

About Bush, the guy's drug plan really is between a rock and a hard place. Libs blast it for not doing nearly enough, and cons hate the idea of spending billions on another ineffective entitlement program.

And back to the OP: medicine is about as conservative a profession as you're likely to find. Pretty interesting, considering how "compassionate" we're all supposed to be. Of course, that's not to say that there aren't plenty of liberals in medicine either.
 
San_Juan_Sun said:
And back to the OP: medicine is about as conservative a profession as you're likely to find. Pretty interesting, considering how "compassionate" we're all supposed to be. Of course, that's not to say that there aren't plenty of liberals in medicine either.

BTW, liberals don't have the corner on the market when it comes to compassion. Conservatives can be very compassionate. I think, in fact, that one tenet that serves to mark someone as liberal is the belief in entitlement (which does NOT equate to compassion.) Whereas, conservatives try to limit that.

I do tend to side more with conservatives, politically, but that doesn't mean that I support everything they propose or support. I must admit, though, that there is very little about liberals that I agree with or support.
 
drlisa0318 said:
BTW, liberals don't have the corner on the market when it comes to compassion.

I never said we didn't. 🙂

It is ironic that a group sterotyped as being the exact opposite of compassionate and caring, is so completely immersed in medicine.
 
From what I've seen and read those discount cards are the most hilarously stupid idea ever. Most seniors can't even list all the drugs they're on and they are suppose to figure out which card gives them the best discounts for the types of drugs they take. What a GD joke, one card, get your discounts, get out. Making the lives of the elderly more complex isn't helping them and I don't care how many hotlines they throw at them...

BTW:

George Bush's Website:
"The President believes that everyone should be able to choose a health care plan that meets their needs at a price they can afford" -compassionate eh?

Kerry's Website:
"That?s why he will give every American access to the health care plan that the President and Members of Congress already have."

Kerry may be smoke and mirrors but at least he doesn't put a price on health.

damn, it's too early in the morning to be getting fired up about politics...
 
H0mersimps0n said:
BTW:

George Bush's Website:
"The President believes that everyone should be able to choose a health care plan that meets their needs at a price they can afford"

Kerry's Website:
"That?s why he will give every American access to the health care plan that the President and Members of Congress already have."

Kerry may be smoke and mirrors but at least he doesn't put a price on health.

Dude...I hate political arguements...but Kerry is dumb here. We (meaning the entire public health system ....republicans and democrats) have been SCREAMING for a universal coverage system for a long long time. You said it smoke and mirrors...but guess what, you can't do a health care plan without breaking the bank. I have discussed this with my fellow MPHs, Professors, and PhD students till we are blue in the face. What sucks... is the money is running out....and will be dry definently within our lifetime and possibly with in the next 20 years. its nice to have a pipe dream but damn....something realistic needs to be done. And no....Canada's system or the Orgeon Health Plan is not going to work for the whole US.

Its a realism vs optimism arguement....what's nice versus what's feasable...not easy by any means.

H0mersimps0n said:
damn, it's too early in the morning to be getting fired up about politics...

Yes...yes it is.....back to your normal programing
 
H0mersimps0n said:
damn, it's too early in the morning to be getting fired up about politics...

If it's morning, it's too early for ANYTHING! (Can you tell I'm not a morning person?) Besides, I can never get fired up about politics....so much of the time it's full of c***, whether liberal or conservative or whatever label people choose. Medicine, on the other hand, I can always get fired up about! :laugh:
 
drlisa0318 said:
BTW, liberals don't have the corner on the market when it comes to compassion. Conservatives can be very compassionate. I think, in fact, that one tenet that serves to mark someone as liberal is the belief in entitlement (which does NOT equate to compassion.) Whereas, conservatives try to limit that.QUOTE]

Wow. I am still trying to figure out the liberal-entitlement connection. If its one thing most conservatives have, its a sense of entitlement. For instance, they oppose Affirmative Action, yet they propagate the "Old Boy" network. Oh, and how about some more tax cuts for the rich!

Compassionate conservatism is an oxymoron.
 
What is your idea of compassion? more people needing government assistance? If that were the standard, than the poor people of the former Soviet Union (waiting in line for bread that wasn't there) would have had the most "compassionate" leaders in the world, right? Coservatives don't measure compassion by the number of people recieving aid. That is not to say that liberals are communists - however, compassion cannot be judged by mearly in terms of number of government programs.

Homer,
I keep hearing all this "confusion and complexity" that come along with the discount cards. Are you just reciting something you have read in the NY Times? or have you actually experienced the system CMS has set up? This is the stupidest argument ever. Here is the procedure to figure out the best prices for drugs: 1) gather your prescriptions, 2) know your zip code, 3) call 1-800-MEDICARE, 4) talk with a rep for about 5 min! How difficult is that?
 
Dubbya said:
Here is the procedure to figure out the best prices for drugs: 1) gather your prescriptions, 2) know your zip code, 3) call 1-800-MEDICARE, 4) talk with a rep for about 5 min! How difficult is that?

Pretty dang easy to get subsidised drugs.

The problem with our political mindset is that we (meaning citizens) expect something for nothing. We can have universal health care, but we're either going to pay up front or out the backside (from taxes).
 
The biggest myth about "Universal Health Care" insurance is that it MUST be a government-run single payer system to work. Conservatives are not against insuring every single citizen of our great country - however, we need to do so in a manner that will insures ownership and responsibility over your own health, while encouraging competition in the free-market. In fact that is anothe huge misnomer - 'that our current "free-market" system does not work, so we must abandon it for socialized medicine.' Our current system is anything but a free-market - for a number of reasons. One: We give tax-breaks for insurance purchased through and employer, but no tax breaks for purchasing insurance on your own? that makes absolutely no sense to me!
 
The problem is the insurance INDUSTRY and the drug INDUSTRY. Why is that not being discussed? The prices Americans pay for drugs is so insanely inflated that there is no way we can ever catch up. They say it is for research but when you crunch the numbers on what they actually SPEND on research it doesn't come anywhere close to the additional dollars they tack on to each and every pill. Enourage competition among drug companies to lower prices--that's the premise of the drug cards. What a crock. How about MANDATING legal limits on drug prices??? Why can't we do that?? Because when W. gets in bed every night, all the drug lobbyists have to scoot over to make room for him.

Insurance companies and Trial Lawyers. It IS too early for that discussion.
 
sophiejane said:
Enourage competition among drug companies to lower prices--that's the premise of the drug cards. What a crock. How about MANDATING legal limits on drug prices??? Why can't we do that??

Simple....would you want to be known as the senator that stopped a cure for diseases by limited drugs reimbursement..which leads to less research...which leads to less jobs....which leads to no progress in fighting diseases? Yeah you could blame the drug companies...but they will just point and say the goverment is holding down the industry. I agree something must be done....but how in our business like enviroment can we do it?

sophiejane said:
Because when W. gets in bed every night, all the drug lobbyists have to scoot over to make room for him.

Common....get off the republican/democratic bashing......thats what the everyone forum is for. Besides, it makes you seem bitter. I like your discussion points...lets keep it nice.

sophiejane said:
Insurance companies and Trial Lawyers.

need to be tared and feathered....maybe shot...

sophiejane said:
It IS too early for that discussion.
Yes....and its 11am now...and its still too damn early
 
Look, there are plenty of federal controls on insurance companies. Why can't we do the same with the drug industry. My point about the bed was not to bash, my point is that sometimes politicians and lawmakers have to make unpopular choices for the common good. I want to see the salaries of the drug company execs. I want to see where their money goes--because I'd bet the farm that all the money they say is for research isn't going to research.

One of the biggest expenses of the drug companies is advertising. You know all the free crap they give away...what if we all just stopped taking it? What if we refused the free dinners and the cruises? Better yet, what if it became illegal to effectively bribe doctors to prescribe a certain product ? I bet there would be a lot of money left over in the advertising budget that could be passed on to the consumer.

This is the idea behind AMSA's pharm-free initiative.
 
Yeah! Great idea, the government should mandate and control prices like they do with the flu vaccine so EVERYONE can have unlimited, cheap access . . . wait, nevermind.

On a less sarcastic note: Why the hatred towards INDUSTRY? I love how some people (libs, cough!) portray corporations as these huge, mechanical beings raping the entire world while swimming in pools of blood-soaked money. [WOW, I've apparently been around liberalism too much!] American pharmeceuticals (along with other evil INDUSTRY) have provided us (Americans and the rest of the world) with the most innovative, life-saving drugs in the world. How much has our quality of medicine improved because of these companies? Do they make a hell of a lot of money while doing it? Yes! too much? You be the judge.

Back to the discount cards: They will add transparency to a previously "blind market", which is essential for real competition and a true consumer-driven system. If you don't believe in capitalism, than that is a whole other argument.
 
sophiejane said:
One of the biggest expenses of the drug companies is advertising. You know all the free crap they give away...what if we all just stopped taking it? What if we refused the free dinners and the cruises? Better yet, what if it became illegal to effectively bribe doctors to prescribe a certain product ? I bet there would be a lot of money left over in the advertising budget that could be passed on to the consumer.

This is the idea behind AMSA's pharm-free initiative.


Very well said. Great point.
 
Dubbya said:
Yeah! Great idea, the government should mandate and control prices like they do with the flu vaccine so EVERYONE can have unlimited, cheap access . . . wait, nevermind.

On a less sarcastic note: Why the hatred towards INDUSTRY? I love how some people (libs, cough!) portray corporations as these huge, mechanical beings raping the entire world while swimming in pools of blood-soaked money. [WOW, I've apparently been around liberalism too much!] American pharmeceuticals (along with other evil INDUSTRY) have provided us (Americans and the rest of the world) with the most innovative, life-saving drugs in the world. How much has our quality of medicine improved because of these companies? Do they make a hell of a lot of money while doing it? Yes! too much? You be the judge.

Back to the discount cards: They will add transparency to a previously "blind market", which is essential for real competition and a true consumer-driven system. If you don't believe in capitalism, than that is a whole other argument.

Dubbya, dude. Take a breath. Nobody said anything about blood-soaked dollar bills. I was just trying to say (if you read the whole post) that drug companies spend a lot of money on things that are NOT research (free lunches, pens, desk do-hickeys, you name it) in an effort to get docs (their best customers and PR agents) to prescribe their drug. Free market or not, that sounds like bribery to me. Especially when many times you have to sit and listen to their little spiel to get your food. Don't get me wrong, I will listen to them and I will take their samples because it's the only way I will be able to get meds to some of my patients who can't afford them. But I will not take their food or their freebies that advertise their product, and if I have my own practice, nobody else in my office will either.

Also, I find it interesting that as soon as you criticize the president, you are a "liberal" and are "republican bashing". I'm not seeing the connection. I have particular problems with this president, not the party as a whole. I would like to think that I have more ability to think for myself than to swallow one party's ideaology hook, line, and sinker.
 
sophiejane said:
One of the biggest expenses of the drug companies is advertising. You know all the free crap they give away...what if we all just stopped taking it? What if we refused the free dinners and the cruises? Better yet, what if it became illegal to effectively bribe doctors to prescribe a certain product ? I bet there would be a lot of money left over in the advertising budget that could be passed on to the consumer.


Actually, I think it would be better to have them stop advertising to the public.
 
sophiejane said:
Look, there are plenty of federal controls on insurance companies. Why can't we do the same with the drug industry. My point about the bed was not to bash, my point is that sometimes politicians and lawmakers have to make unpopular choices for the common good. I want to see the salaries of the drug company execs. I want to see where their money goes--because I'd bet the farm that all the money they say is for research isn't going to research.

One of the biggest expenses of the drug companies is advertising. You know all the free crap they give away...what if we all just stopped taking it? What if we refused the free dinners and the cruises? Better yet, what if it became illegal to effectively bribe doctors to prescribe a certain product ? I bet there would be a lot of money left over in the advertising budget that could be passed on to the consumer.

This is the idea behind AMSA's pharm-free initiative.


Its nice...but again your talking about us americans...the same ones that worship people that play with a bouncy ball for millions....the same ones that will shell out serious money for entertainment at movie theaters and video games. There are some idealistic people out there but it really is a large amount of we're out for number one and that's what we care about mentality out there today.

You speak of an ideal world where we could turn down that stuff...and as long as it works...then they will continue to do it.

Then again you can call me a hippocrite cause I have taken those post it notes and free "educational" lunchs and I kinda like em....but I understand your point.
 
DrMom said:
Actually, I think it would be better to have them stop advertising to the public.

I always found it funny when people would come in and ask for certain drugs by name....no no I don't want that acid reducer....I want nexium cause its the little purple pill! Those ads are just so cute!
 
Sophie, c'mon! You are the one saying "W is in bed with lobbyists"! Let me guess - that was just a joke, not a personal attack? Well, my "blood-soaked dollar bills" comment is a comical representation of how libs think about all big business.

I never said, nor think, that the pharmeceutical industry is a 100% effecient or honest. They no doubt waste alot of money on stupid crap. But, that is the wonder of the free-market (if it is allowed to thrive!). If pharm company X spends too much $$$ on marketing, gifts, etc. their drug prices will be too high and nobody will buy their drug! If they set the price too high, people will choose other drugs and they will not get a maximum return on their investment. Eventually, company x's patent will run out and other companies will be allowed to produce and distribute the drug how they see fit. We have a fairly cheap pharm generic market and I personally think everyone should buy generics when available.

Regarding bribery: Physicians should always have their patient's best interest at heart - including being responsible enough to refuse "bribes" from anyone, included pharm companies.
 
Maybe the hardliners here can agree to disagree, while the other 50% in the middle can see some of the validity in both arguments and perhaps affect some change in the future? I feel like i'm reading transcripts of a poorly produced "Hannity & Colmes" here.
 
Poorly produced? How dare you! We are all veteran broadcasters here - right guys?
 
pathdawg said:
drlisa0318 said:
BTW, liberals don't have the corner on the market when it comes to compassion. Conservatives can be very compassionate. I think, in fact, that one tenet that serves to mark someone as liberal is the belief in entitlement (which does NOT equate to compassion.) Whereas, conservatives try to limit that.QUOTE]

Wow. I am still trying to figure out the liberal-entitlement connection. If its one thing most conservatives have, its a sense of entitlement. For instance, they oppose Affirmative Action, yet they propagate the "Old Boy" network. Oh, and how about some more tax cuts for the rich!

Compassionate conservatism is an oxymoron.

First, I'm not going to get fired up over the differences here - it's not worth the energy. So, if we disagree, we disagree. I won't argue the pros or cons of either.

Second, in case you're attaching a different meaning to "entitlement" than I am, this is what I mean: the government is responsible for taking care of *insert whatever problem you wish*; therefore, we need a government program to take care of it. This is not to say that government assistance in various areas is a bad thing, nor do I believe that conservatives feel that all programs should be gotten rid of completely. It is more that to be fiscally responsible, they necessarily must be limited. I'm not going to get into a debate over Bush's (or any other conservative) budget/tax plan and the merits of its fiscal soundness/unsoundness. Nor will I get into a debate over any liberal budget/tax plan. This is simply to clarify what I meant earlier.

Third, "compassion" as displayed by a government or even corporate entity, is in truth impersonal. For instance, a company can donate money to any number of worthy charities, but it doesn't necessarily involve the heart. It might simply be a tax write-off. Compassion, to me, is very personal and always involves the heart. I wish I had far more money than I do, so I could help more people; however, I'm not wealthy...heck, I don't even qualify as middle-class. So, I do what I can, within the boundaries of my pocketbook and time. To do otherwise would be fiscally irresponsible to my family. This means that I can't help even a tiny fraction of those who need help. If the U.S. government is "We, the people", then "We, the people" need to stop expecting someone else to do the helping and get personally involved ourselves in whatever capacity we can. There are tons of worthy charities dying for volunteers and money. We keep expecting the government to do all this when we (conservative and liberal, alike) will barely lift a finger. How much have you...or you...or you done to help someone in your neighborhood, your town? How much compassion have you shown to the people around you in need? When was the last time you went to a soup kitchen and served a meal? or brought a meal and a smile and an ear to an elderly shut-in? or taught an underpriveleged child to read? When was the last time you paid for the person ahead of you in the check-out line because they didn't have enough cash? When it becomes personal, THAT'S when it becomes compassion. And THAT I will get "fired up" about.

Fourth, I grew up in Texas where I think they invented the "good-ol' boy" network. I've always been strongly against it. And just because I call myself conservative, doesn't mean I agree with everything conservative politicians do or say. I've never liked being pigeon-holed.

Okay...I'm off my soapbox, now...
 
drlisa0318 said:
Third, I grew up in Texas where I think they invented the "good-ol' boy" network. I've always been strongly against it. And just because I call myself conservative, doesn't mean I agree with everything conservative politicians do or say. I've never liked being pigeon-holed.

They have this network here in Tennessee too....it reaches from local elections to county commishs to public health to medical and law school admissions at certain schools.....

Yup...it pays to know someone who knows someone.
 
What does this have to do with politics? Are all "good ol' boy" networks conservative? I know of such networks, but have never associated a political framework with them.
 
Dubbya said:
What does this have to do with politics? Are all "good ol' boy" networks conservative? I know of such networks, but have never associated a political framework with them.

I don't know...you'll have to ask Pathdawg who brought it up in an earlier post.
 
Dubbya said:
I never said, nor think, that the pharmeceutical industry is a 100% effecient or honest. They no doubt waste alot of money on stupid crap. But, that is the wonder of the free-market (if it is allowed to thrive!). If pharm company X spends too much $$$ on marketing, gifts, etc. their drug prices will be too high and nobody will buy their drug! If they set the price too high, people will choose other drugs and they will not get a maximum return on their investment. Eventually, company x's patent will run out and other companies will be allowed to produce and distribute the drug how they see fit. We have a fairly cheap pharm generic market and I personally think everyone should buy generics when available.

Regarding bribery: Physicians should always have their patient's best interest at heart - including being responsible enough to refuse "bribes" from anyone, included pharm companies.

Must be nice to see the world through rose-colored glasses.

And my comment about W. most certainly WAS personal--very astute of you to notice. What I objected to was being accused of bashing the whole party, something I clearly did not do.
 
Well, the government and corporations have more in common than both sides care to admit. Dishonesty, money loving, inefficiency, personal agendas... these things know all political ideologies.
But, even as conservative as I am, a lot of the cost of drugs is due to lobbying and not research. My undergrad is a BBA and our policy classes spent a lot of time researching this problem.
 
sophiejane said:
Dubbya, dude. Take a breath. Nobody said anything about blood-soaked dollar bills. I was just trying to say (if you read the whole post) that drug companies spend a lot of money on things that are NOT research (free lunches, pens, desk do-hickeys, you name it) in an effort to get docs (their best customers and PR agents) to prescribe their drug. Free market or not, that sounds like bribery to me. Especially when many times you have to sit and listen to their little spiel to get your food. Don't get me wrong, I will listen to them and I will take their samples because it's the only way I will be able to get meds to some of my patients who can't afford them. But I will not take their food or their freebies that advertise their product, and if I have my own practice, nobody else in my office will either.

Also, I find it interesting that as soon as you criticize the president, you are a "liberal" and are "republican bashing". I'm not seeing the connection. I have particular problems with this president, not the party as a whole. I would like to think that I have more ability to think for myself than to swallow one party's ideaology hook, line, and sinker.

Yeah! Right on, Sophie!!!!!

But, ummmm. Would it be cool to ignore the pharm rep spiel and gulp down the cocktails before the food comes out, and then eat. I mean, if you don't actually listen.......yeah, that is totally fine. No problem, I'm off to dinner and putting in ear plugs! So many restaurants and so little time.
 
daveyboy said:
Yeah! Right on, Sophie!!!!!

But, ummmm. Would it be cool to ignore the pharm rep spiel and gulp down the cocktails before the food comes out, and then eat. I mean, if you don't actually listen.......yeah, that is totally fine. No problem, I'm off to dinner and putting in ear plugs! So many restaurants and so little time.

Hey, nobody said anything about drinks, I was just talking about food...🙂

I know I sound like a righteous do-gooder when I say that, but I really mean it. We really have to stop letting drug companies and insurance companies and lobbyists run our profession. Doctors need to reclaim medicine!! Who's with me??! Come on Daveyboy, put down that free steak and let's go pharm free! 😉
 
sophiejane said:
Hey, nobody said anything about drinks, I was just talking about food...🙂

I know I sound like a righteous do-gooder when I say that, but I really mean it. We really have to stop letting drug companies and insurance companies and lobbyists run our profession. Doctors need to reclaim medicine!! Who's with me??! Come on Daveyboy, put down that free steak and let's go pharm free! 😉

I truly admire the do-gooderedness. There is a program called "no free lunch" that you should check out. They have a website.

BTW, free pharm lunches are no longer allowed at Parkland and BUMC. You should be pleased to hear that.
 
I totally agree with Dr Nick - both government and corporations can be inefficient and dishonest. I think the weasels at Enron (and the like) should spend years behind bars for how they decieved and hurt thousands of people. However, the government's job is to make sure that businesses are obeying the law - if they are not, than the Justice Dept should prosecute them appropriately. However, if we are going thrive in an effective capitalistic system, the government cannot "control" the market with a heavy hand and price controls.
 
Well this is an interesting thread. Although there are some interesting points (good one drlisa0318) I must argue with sophiejane's positions including:

>One of the biggest expenses of the drug companies is advertising. You know >all the free crap they give away...what if we all just stopped taking it? >What if we refused the free dinners and the cruises? Better yet, what if it >became illegal to effectively bribe doctors to prescribe a certain product? I >bet there would be a lot of money left over in the advertising budget that >could be passed on to the consumer.

With all due respect, are you familiar with the concept of free market? The last thing we need in healthcare, or most other aspects of our country for that matter, are more laws regulating our practice. If you don't like they way a pharmaceutical company markets its product, don't use them. Simple.

I have worked in healthcare for 10 years, from provider to educator to supervisor so I believe my opinions are based on experience not naive idealism. When misinformed politicians and idealistic activists push for increasing laws to fix an "injustice" in healthcare there are always negative consequences. Laws regulating the practice of medicine and the litigious nature of society are strangling physicians? ability to properly manage patients and actually practice medicine as well as inflating cost. I believe that as future and new physicians it is in our best interest, and our patients? best interest, to not allow any further unnecessary governmental encroachment into our profession. The solution to problems with healthcare in the US is not further legislation; it is the legislation that is the problem.

By the way, there are healthcare systems that provide free care to all, prevent lobbyists from "running our profession", and disallow drug company "bribery." It's called socialism. Didn't work then, won't work now.

Rant mode off.
 
Sinnman (my brother in capitalism),
You must understand that some people (like sophie) think that the free-market is the problem! It must be controlled and forced into functioning "properly". I just finished my MPH and you would not believe the number of people who believe Cuba, Canada, etc. has a better health care system than we do! They all claim, "but every single person has access to 'healthcare' in socialist Cuba". These same people will then turn around and complain about the low-quality of care provided by Community Health Centers in the U.S. (which is better than most facilities in Cuba) The contradictions are just mind boggling!

Sophie, do some research on the level of happiness/satisfaction among docs in Canada and other socialist medical systems. Many countries that have adopted such approaches to healthcare are having to import docs from Siberia to serve their populations!
 
Dubbya said:
Sophie, do some research on the level of happiness/satisfaction among docs in Canada and other socialist medical systems. Many countries that have adopted such approaches to healthcare are having to import docs from Siberia to serve their populations!

For someone with a masters degree, your interpretive skills are a little dubious sometimes. When did I ever say the free market was the problem? There is a huge difference between saying that an industry needs reform and blaming the entire free market system for those problems.

As much as you'd like it to be so, the world is not black and white. And when exactly did I say anything about socialized medicine? Saying that insurance and drug companies need to be reformed is a far cry from saying we need "socialized" medicine (perhaps you could do some research and share with us what that actually means?). What we need is universal health care--a system which could very easily be private and similar to what we have today but in which there is complete coverage for everyone so that we are not hemorrhaging dollars every time a poor single mom takes her kid to the ER for routine care.

Well, well see where all this leads. Stay tuned. We are all going to have front row seats, that's for sure.
 
How can you place "price-limits" (as you suggested earlier) on goods or services and still remain a FREE-market? Mandating prices is a socialist concept, you cannot apply it to the free-market and say that it is still "free"! That is just an oxymoron. You can't have it both ways Sophie.

Once again, I think we should figure out a system to provide insurance to those people who need some assistance. I recognize the extra-costs incurred by the uninsured - it raises the costs for everyone else. To cover the uninsured, a plan similar to the Federal Employees Health Benefit Program (FEHBP) would be my suggestion. This plan would give beneficiaries choice and ownership over their health insurance coverage, while still encouraging competition in the marketplace.
 
In my opinion, if the government would start limiting medicare and welfare to those that ACTUALLY NEED IT, things would start turning for the better. Nothing ticks me off more than to see someone who is perfectly able to work for a living (getting insurance in the process) only to sit back on their lazy ass, claiming some lame ass disability like "nerve problems", and collect a check for it. I would love to see how much money is spent on those bastards. Governmental assistance should be limited to the elderly that don't have private care, children, and those who are legitimately disabled. If you are able to work, there is no excuse for you not having insurance.
 
Can I hear an amen!!!!

Excellent post!!!!

I can?t begin to tell you the number of able bodied 20 and 30 year olds that are ?disabled? for anxiety and back pain. This is at the same time a 20-something year old quadriplegic I know does not qualify for Medicaid because his insurance settlement placed his income over the limit (the settlement covered a couple of months of hospitalization for what it?s worth).

But what is more aggravating to me recently is the girlfriend of a friend of mine. She is ?disabled? and receives her ?disability? check every month. A couple of days ago they were showing me pictures of their vacation and showed her parasailing and jet skiing!!!!!!!

I could go on with more stories for days.

This is our money folks!!! Spend a couple of months in just about any ER and you?ll realize this is not the exception!! I feel like I should just walk around and hand these people twenty dollars bills directly so I don?t forget where it?s really going.

Man, this thread is cause me to be hypertensive.
 
It seems as if the legislature, both statewide and federal, are too damn stupid to figure this out. Either that, or they simply don't want to figure this out.

My home state, Mississippi, just passed a bill that many people are upset over. The bill basically states that if you qualify for medicare, your medicaid will be cut off. Well, all this has done is target those age 65 and older. When this bill was being talked about, I was thinking that the idiots had finally targeted the problem and was doing something about it. Nope. Those with young children will not be cut off. I've got no problem with children, but all that is doing is continuing to allow those that like to be barefoot and pregnant all the time to continue mooching off the government. Especially in the delta. All they do is have babies and collect their goverment check off those babies. The children actually benefit very little from this. It's a sham. I mean, if you are going to make a decision to cut the people who actually need this assistance, then cut the whole damn thing.

😡
 
Dubbya said:
Sophie, do some research on the level of happiness/satisfaction among docs in Canada and other socialist medical systems. Many countries that have adopted such approaches to healthcare are having to import docs from Siberia to serve their populations!

"Canada and other socialist systems'?!?

As one who has lives under such a terrible oppressive 'socialist' health care regime in Australia, I feel just awful about being able to stagger into a world class hospital and not have to pay a cent.

Yes, I feel so ...so...socialised goddamit!

I would love to be like you brave Americans and crawl out of a car wreck into a medical clinic and be hit with a bill.

And our medical and nursing staff are sooooo depressed, it's a wonder they get out of bed in the morning.

Then there's all those darned Siberians clogging up the corridors of the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital's Outpatient section or Sir Charles Gardener A&E!

Please America - I want to be liberated too!
 
Just a little grist to the mill of this debate...

HOW AUSTRALIA'S HEALTH SERVICE COMPARES INTERNATIONALLY

Four indicators are often used to compare health services in different countries. These are: universal coverage; level of satisfaction among the population with the health system; health status and overall cost to the economy. On each of these Australia rates well.

Health status

Australians enjoy a high overall level of population health status on almost every criterion. Most measures of death and illness show Australia ranks in the middle range of developed countries.

Age-standardised death rates take into account the different age distributions across countries. Comparing the number of deaths per 100,000 people provides a comparison of a nation's overall health status.

In 1992, Australia had the fifth lowest rate among 19 comparable developed countries, bettered only by Japan, Hong Kong, Sweden and Canada (AIHW,1998). Australia's death rate was 16% lower than the rates for the USA and New Zealand, which ranked 15th and 16th respectively.

Life expectancy in Australia in 1996 was 78.2 years, one year greater than the OECD median and 2.1 years more than the USA - while infant mortality was equal to the OECD median of 5.8 per 1000 live births (Anderson 1998).

In 1995, a comparison of eight developed countries recently ranked Australia second only to Japan in achieving the lowest potential years of life lost for all causes except suicide for people under the age of 70 in 1995 (Anderson 1998).

Spending on health care

Australia's total spending on health care, as a proportion of GDP and in the proportion coming from the public sector, ranks in the middle of the developed countries for which data are available.

Note that the USA, with only 46.7% of its health care expenditure in the public sector spends 67% more than Australia as a proportion of GDP and 2.3 times as much per capita. Yet despite this additional spending, the USA reports a worse population health status and has 40 million people without any form of health insurance. Most of its higher spending simply goes in higher costs.

International health expenditure indicators, 1997

Country Amount per head Proportion of GDP % Public contribution %

Australia 1,750 8.4 68.7
USA 4,090 14.0 46.7
UK 1,347 6.7 84.5
Canada 2,095 9.3 68.7
Germany 2,339 10.4 77.4
New Zealand 1,352 7.6 77.4

Ref: International health: how Australia compares, AIHW 1998, p127

Since these figures were released, falls in the Australian dollar against the US dollar make our spending comparisons even more favourable.

Every OECD nation's health spending has risen since 1970. However, where the public sector dominates the market, such as Australia and the UK , cost rises have been slower and more controlled. In Australia the cost of health care has been relatively stable for the last 10 years.

Australia's proportion of GDP on health went from 5.2% to 8.4% between 1970 and 1995; while the USA rose from 7.4% to 14.5% over the same period (AIHW 1996). The USA rate has only plateaued in the 1990s, mainly as a result of bureaucratic "managed care" restrictions on the supply of medical services, something Australia has so far avoided.

Contrary to claims of health cost blow outs, recent trends show that the rate of increase in health care spending was slower in nearly all countries in the 1990s than it had been in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s (Anderson, 1998).

Fairness, Access and Choice

National expenditure on health care is only one measure of comparison. Other important areas include; how fairly the costs are shared; how accessible the health care services are and how much consumer choice is available.

Countries with universal health insurance cover, such as Australia, ensure that all people have access to medical and hospital care when they need it.

Countries which rely more on private funding of health care, such as the USA, emphasise the right of individuals to choose how their health care needs are met. But in reality, choice is determined by personal wealth. Around 40 million Americans or 16% of the population remain uninsured. For them, the choice may be limited to using dwindling public services, bankruptcy or going without needed care.

The UK's National Health Service provides universal health care cover, but offers only limited choice. In international terms, this system is efficient in terms of health outcomes, and fair, because nearly all health care is paid for by progressive taxation.

Getting the balance right

An effective health care system not only recognises health as a public concern, but ensures everyone has a stake in their own and each other's health. Everyone pays their fair share, according to their capacity. It accommodates the values and rights of the individual and allows for choice and active involvement in decision making about health care.

Most importantly, an effective health care system maximises access for all, so that health and health care is seen as a basic right and not a commodity for sale only to those who can afford it.

Australia has managed to walk the thin line between more extreme models by attempting to balance fairness, access and choice as well as maximise health outcomes.

Our health care system is essentially a hybrid of public and private provision. However, one key feature of its public arm is universal health insurance coverage. Universal health coverage is a feature of all OECD countries except for the USA, and means that everyone, rich and poor, is insured against major individual health care costs. Universal health coverage also ensures that all taxpayers contribute to the cost of maintaining the system, according to their capacity to do so.

If the rich were exempt from contributing to the public system via means testing or "opt out" provisions, the diminished tax base would render the public system unworkable. However, the current system ensures all Australians have access to quality care on the basis of need, a choice of GP and the right to choose and pay for private care if they wish.

There is always room for improvement in health care. Australia's system is not perfect, but by international comparisons it gets the balance right. As Dr Michael Wooldrige, Federal Minister for Health, often states: the choice is clear; what country other than Australia would you like to be sick in?

References

De Looper M and Bhatia K, International Health: How Australia Compares, Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, Canberra 1998

Anderson GF, Multinational Comparisons of Health Care, Centre for Hospital Finance and Management Johns Hopkins University USA, Commonwealth Fund,1998

August 2001

See also the Medical Journal of Australia for a physician's viewpoint http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_01_030700/leeder/leeder.html
 
Did you also know that "healthcare" is only a ~10% determinent of an individual' s actual health status? Sort of makes us future docs feel worthless, huh?

Once again, for people who haven't followed the thread, I have never contended that the US has the healthiest population (another topic) or the best healthcare system! nor have I said that Australia has a bad system. (And your "liberate us" comment is so stupid it's not worth discussing).

I actually don't know much about healthcare system "down under". It sounds like a much better system than our neighbor's to the north. I do not doubt that a quasi-social medical system can work in the short term, but what about the long-term. The progress and innnovation of medical science will inevitably slow down under such a system. Where are most drugs and medical technology researched and developed in the world? Yes, in the EVIL U.S.A.! But I'm glad Australians and the rest of the world can benefit from our pharmaceuticals.

I would agree that managed care and employer-based coverage have not provided the neccessary medical care to our citizens. We CAN provide insurance to every citizen without converting to a single-payer National Health Care system! [Sidenote: Isn't it funny how proponents of National Healthcare complain about the 'bueracracy' of HMOs!?]

Advanceable tax-credits, in conjunction with a system similar to the US Federal Employees Health Benefit Program will provide choice and ownership of health insurance to those in need while promoting the progress and quality of medicine. If you are unfamiliar with FEHBP, see http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/
 
Socialized medicine will do nothing but drive doctors away from the profession. I know that I would go into something else if this country went to some form of socialized medicine, because I won't go to school for four years and then do five years of residency only to have some damn buerocrat dictate how much money I can make.

I still say the biggest issue should be the state and federally supported benefits that go to the lazy dinguses who are perfectly capable of working but are too damn lazy to do so. They are more than able to get a job that will give them some form of business coverage on health care, and then the money saved could be used for those who are actually disabled, the elderly, and children, though there should be a limit on children to keep women from being barefoot and pregnant all the time just to collect a check.
 
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