osteopathic vs. allopathic

[juliejo]

i'm in medical school at UCSD and my cousin is currently applying to medical schools. however, she doesn't think her chances are that great and wants to try osteopathic schools, so i had a few questions to ask.

1. do medical students in allopathic schools consider the osteopathic school counterparts of the same caliber as their allopathic peers?

2. i also recently heard an osteopathic student state that he was going to medical school but i found out that it's actually an osteopath school, is there not a big difference between med school and this other type of osteopath med school?

i would appreciate an honest opinion b/c i don't want my cousin to go into osteopath and realize that she can't specialize or have some odd restriction such as this.

i am especially curious as to how med students view osteopath students b/c do they not all work in the same hospital?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[DrSRBS]

DO's enjoy all of the rights and privileges of allopaths. They are separate but equal. (Perhaps the only difference between DO and MD graduates is that DO graduates are obligated to do an osteopathic internship (1st year of residency) but can go on into any allopathic or osteopathic residency program as a 2nd year resident.) Why not check out any of the osteopathic websites out there, if you are interested in the distinctions between osteopathic and allopathic medicinal practices? This site we're on now has FAQ's about Osteopathic Medicine.

DO's can call their schools "Medical School" with all of the certainty of students in an MD program.

I welcome others' comments.

 

[JoeDoc]

I've known several DO's who have done residencies at places like Johns Hopkins and Mayo clinic. I can't imagine that a DO degree will hold her back from anything she wants to do.

 

[1918]

I am NOT an authority on this, but others have posted info that indicates that certain residencies are more problematic to obtain depending on the state, if you're a DO. Please look for these threads -- I believe RBorhani (DO) posted some specifics on this question.

 

[kmmath]

I am sure that I will get blasted for this, but here goes anyway...

I think your question said it all "can't get into allopathic school...apply to osteopathic school". My husband is finishing his ID fellowship. He and many of his colleagues have little respect for the education DO's receive. They take the same courses, but not of the same high calibre. They are not required to take the USMLE exams, but take an easier Osteopathic version. (and those that opt to take the USMLE's have a lower pass rate) It is an illusion to think that people who worked to get into MD programs don't think that people who go to DO school do so because they did not make it into MD school.
Many MD's do look down on DO's. I know that if there are any DO's out there right now that they probably don't want to hear that, and I am not trying to alienate anyone or hurt feelings, but it is true.
Also, MD schools are famous for their biomedical research. The profs and MD's that teach are actively involved in Medical Research....I have never seen a publication by a DO or DO school...and I think that that says something. DO schools are founded on belief in manipulative medicine in the treatment of illnes...Is someone who is taught by a teacher of lower quality (non-publishing, not actively involved in research) learning the same as someone taught by a better trained instructor (at the cutting edge)?


I don't know, do your research. If you have some friends that are in med school/DO school that are willing to be candid with you I would suggest you ask...maybe even go to visiit an osteopathic school. I could be wrong about what I say...and I invite any feedback to the contrary! (I am sure I will hear an earfull)



[This message has been edited by kmmath (edited 06-25-2000).]

 

[kmmath]

Here is a post from the osteopathic boards...which might be another resource for you by the way:MyBloodyValentine

posted 04-20-2000 05:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alright. You've probably never seen me on these boards before. But I used to be on, circa, 1996-7 (w/ a diff. name). Before I got into D.O. school...like many of you, I used to hit the board at least twice a day. I only HOPED to get an email as honest/explicit as what I'll say.
I post this here b/c I want to tell the prospective D.O. students and not the "general" (read: M.D.) audience.

1. D.O.'s don't have Pathology labs during system courses. This is a disadvantage b/c, as everyone knows, "pictures are worth a thousand words". if we don't see the pic's...the path just isn't as meaningful- and you won't learn it as strong. Also, if you plan on taking the USMLE, there's going to be plenty of glossy histo-path pics. to look over. best of luck remembering Reed-Sternberg cells from a plasma cell. ha.

1b. On a related note, have you all noticed (in brochures, web page) that many of our school's 2nd yr. curriculums are "bundled" in such a way that it's almost impossible to discern how many hours are spent in lab or lecture? that's why I never knew we wouldn't have path lab during 2nd yr. it's a slick move, bundling. instead of saying how many hours of Pharmacology, Pathology etc... they'll just call it Cardiology..GI...Endocrinology. Sure, it's presented like that during system lectures but shouldn't they have a break down as well?


2. Osteopathic Medical schools don't have paid Clinical Professors in their teaching hospitals. In fact, they don't even OWN teaching hospitals. In fact they have "volunteers" at "community hospitals". What's the differences? A paid clinical professor is obliged to teach you b/c of a financial tie w/ the school you're at. In most tradional medical programs, the school owns the hospital next door to it. Not so w/ D.O. schools. That's not a bad thing, in and of itself. However, our schools simply go out and signs up "volunteers" at conveniently located "community hospitals". At these hospitals, if you learn anything - surprise, you do it on your own (like basic science) b/c a volunteer attending physician will place your learning priorities at the very bottom for the most part (though I'm sure there are some good doc's). I guess THAT'S why we still have that outdated Internship huh?

3. Many of the schools will have rotations which are not at a hospital but in a clinic! this is not unlike what many m1/m2 students go thru w/ a physician mentor, following the doctor as s/he sees patients. you may not mind this, but realize that you won't be allowed to do ANYthing remotely involved w/ medicine (i.e anything invasive). instead, you will simply be left to history taking and physical examination. physician mentoring for months! I know you'll say "H&P is 90% of the diagnosis! so it IS good." well H&P will only go so far when you're a 4th year trying to look good in an elective, and you've got to catheterize someone.

4. in many D.O. school(s), there are mandatory classes, with examinations, which have little to do w/ anything related to medicine. the Osteopathic schools do this because they recieve cash-money grants from various sources to fill up their coffers and nothing else. Most importantly though, they take away time for more important studying.

5. Osteopathic Medicine is just not cost effective. Once you hit the real world, those 2 words, "cost effective" will hit hard. Now think about it in terms of your own personal future. Consider this: where the hell is our money going? If you're paying $18K - $25K in tuition, and you don't have a Path Lab (or Micro lab I forgot to mention (at most D.O. schools)), you don't have paid clinical staff, your school is getting extra grant money...where is the $ going and why does it still cost you 18-25K? it's simply not worth it. yet, tuition amazingly continues to rise, while quality doesn't.

6. Finally, don't ever get your hopes too high for D.O visibility. The AOA is far too busy trying to get all of us to pursue D.O. internships and residencies (oh never mind that there are more students than D.O. residencies available). No, instead the AOA will foolishly squander your dues and at the end of the year say among it's members "Yes, we have a fine advertising plan ahead of us...yes we do...". well what good is it to toot your own horn amongst yourselves? nobody in a room full of D.O's is going to argue about visiblity...go out and inform the crowd that knows nothing about it - TV Advertising! the AOA even has an ad set up ...but they they haven't put it out (except for, maybe, in Kirksville). but the AOA is too busy doing other things.


I will probably come across as someone who's bitter b/c they've failed, or they've been kicked out, or b/c they're a senior who wasn't accepted to any med school at all. The honest truth, though, is that I'm a 2nd year D.O. student who is winding up basic science and realizes they would've done things different given a 2nd chance (to go D.O or not).

I'm not disgruntled, I'll get by, but I just want people to know what I wish I knew at the time of decision-making. I'm not biting the hand that feeds me b/c what I'm saying are facts, and not opinions.

-MBV, DO2002

 

[Pilot]

Originally posted by kmmath:
They are not required to take the USMLE exams, but take an easier Osteopathic version. (and those that opt to take the USMLE's have a lower pass rate)

I would ask that you supply me with a reference to back this statement. I have looked everywhere to try and find if DO students have a lower pass rate than MD students on the USMLE, and I have not been able to substantiate this anywhere. I have been told this also, but when pressed everybody's response is "that's just what I was told." I opted for the DO route by choice, and didn't apply to an allopathic institution. Thanks in advance for supplying a reference for your statement. Pilot

 

[UHS2002]

Kristen,

ignorance is an ugly thing, and prejudice, in all its forms, comes from ignorance.

Your source of authoritative information is your husband's prejudice and the post of someone, I am assuming, you don't even know. Posting, by the way that was amply refuted by more than one person, due to all the incorrect and misleading info it contained. However, you chose to selectively ignore all the postings which pointed out to the incorrectness of MyBloodyValentine's post.

Your husband must live in a different world than the one I live in, or perhaps he is not a very keen observer. I have met more than one DO who was chief resident at an allopathic program. Last time I checked, this position was not assigned to the more inept resident at hand...

A great number of MD schools are not big into research, sorry to have to break this important news flash. Most of the faculty at MD schools is not heavily into research either. Some MD schools are indeed famous for their research, while the great majority lives contentedly in anonimity, just like the DO schools. If you want to include clinical trials in your definition of research, then the scope widens somewhat, but I must inform you that many faculty members at DO schools are involved in clinical trials too.

The COMLEX, the licensing exam for DOs, is not a lesser and easier version of the USMLE. I have no idea where you got that idea from (I assume neither you nor your husband have taken it, to be able to compare). I am also left to wonder where you got the idea that osteopathic students get a watered down version of medical school. Is it from the years you spent in med school?

I find it somewhat amusing that you think you are in a position to compare two programs, neither of which you have any experience with. Next thing we know, you are going to be giving your opinion on different treatment protocols on TB, your authority coming from being the wife of an ID fellow, ROLF...

You mention in a previous post that you are thinking about applying to med school. You will encounter, during your journey into medical school,many people who think a married woman, with kids, such as yourself, should be happy to play the mother role and the physician's wife's role and leave the doctoring to her hubby. Many MDs and many faculty members at MD schools hold this view. Does it make it right? I guess, if I am to follow your own logic, it should be since they say so and they are there "in the trenches". You will find many people, and this was a flaming war last year on this board, that hold to the opinion that older students such as yourself should not be accepted over younger students, because they will have less years to be in practice. Because some medical students and pre-meds (and many members of adcoms, as you will find out) think this, does it make it true?! You will also find that your application will not be taken seriously by many schools, because of you age and family status. Again, prejudice, IN ANY FORM, is ugly and never justified.

I don't know if there are any DOs at the medical school in Gainsville (just mentioning that because I see your profile indicates you live in Gainsville), but I know there are several DOs at Washington University Medical School, which anyone will be able to tell you is a much higher ranked medical school than Gainsville. Do you think that Wash U. and Barnes Hospital may know something about the education of osteopathic physician that you and your husband don't?! Or perhaps both of you should write them a note, informing them that DOs really took watered down classe in med school and a much easier board exam. By the way, one of this year's graduates from UHS (a DO school, no less...) is starting her residency at Wash U. (gosh, she must have lied on her application and told them she went to an MD school - this would explain why she was selected over applicants who graduted from school with "real" classes and who took "the hard boards"). One of our faculty members (who is an alumnus of our school) did his residency at Harvard, no less, they must be misinformed too. While you are at it, write to the Pentagon, since they made this horrible mistake and assigned a DO as Surgeon General of the Coast Guard and another as Surgeon General of the Army. How could they put people with a "watered down" medical education in a leadership role over so many of their MD medical officers, the ones with the "superior education", remember?!

DOs are at Johns Hopkins, at the Mayo Clinic, at the Cleveland Clinic, etc. Wake up, smell the coffee and try to base your opinions on facts.

 

[docflight2]

Kmmath,
As a practicing physician and good Christian I will not belittle you for your 'humble' opinion. We are all entitled to our own beliefs and convictions as different as they may be. I do think that your credibility went out of the window when you mentioned your source was your husband who is finishing an ID fellowship. UHS2002 posted quite correctly that your comments are unsubstantiated and based on personal bias and not fact. I am quite confident that you, your husband, and his colleagues, are not familiar with the DO curriculum and testing methods and are therefore unable to give a completely objective opinion on the validity of their training.. I currently work with and for several DO's and truly admire their intelligence and professionalism. My colleagues are well published and enjoy active teaching positions at the local medical school. Your comments will anger a few who would place some credibility in your post. Research your topic before posting- your ability to profess your opinion is quite apparent, but you will be respected more if you have an informed view of the subject matter. V/R, RDG

 

[bsthomas]

UHS2002

don't you know that an ad hominem is not the correct way to argue. Take a Phil. course and don't be so critical.

 

[wheatfarmer]

kmmath,

WHO IN THE HELL THINKS THE COMLEX IS EASIER THAN THE USMLE?! Listen friend, I took both and I would LOVE to take the USMLE anyday over the COMLEX! The COMLEX is 800 questions over two days while the USMLE is 350 in one day! The two degrees are obviously VERY similar, but there are distinctions...allopaths are better in research and osteopaths are better in physical diagnosis. Sure that is a generalized statement, but from what I have seen in my career, that appears to be the case. Listen, no one holds the patent on compassion or skill in medicine...whether they be DO or MD. Ridiculous.

 

[ewagner]

KMMATH,

Listen to UHS2002, this person always represents our profession well, so I have very little to add.
Kmmath, why would you speak in such a degrading way to others? I am not a Freudian psychologist, but what inferiority complex propells you to attack others who do nothing to you!? To even suggest that we as osteopathic medical students are some how inferior (despite the fact we take the same classes and practice in the same professional settings and are held to the same standards as MD's) is ridiculous and inflammatory. I have worked in medicine for years and have had the honor of working next to both MD's and DO's and I must say, like the rest of the humans on this planet, no profession is perfect. But I can assure you, I would not be in an osteopathic school if I thought it was crap...my goal has always been to be an orthopedic surgeon and I CHOSE a DO school because I thought it had something to offer the management and care of orthopedic patients. It was not a decision of "last resort" nor am I lesser qualified applicant. It is something that I CHOSE to do, something that will help me in orthopedics.

Now regarding some of the other *****ic things regarding pathology labs etc...please!
I FLEW through the USMLE pathology questions, with thanks to my EXCELLENT PATHOLOGY INSTRUCTOR Dr. Ed FRIEDLANDER at UHS-COM (though I would've liked more OB-GYN).

The rest of what you state is pure conjecture without proof and for the most part...ignorant.

 

[drusso]

I think that many of these issues have already been addressed in the FAQ's
http://osteopathic.com/do/about.html

 

[Diane Ev]

Dear kmmath:
The COMLEX (osteopathic board exam) this year was a harder exam than the USMLE. Most students this year took BOTH exams. DO students would prefer to take the USMLE but the COMLEX is required for graduation from all osteopathic schools. Some students do not take the USMLE because almost all programs accept the COMLEX.

Nowadays there is little difference in education. DO schools also get substantially more anatomy due to the additional courses they take on manipulation/ neurology. I've worked/ socialized with several MD's and DO's at NIH, Johns Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic. I did not see any problems.

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion.
Most DOs go into a family medicine, internal medicine or pediatrics. Although this status quo is changing, newer students are pursuing specialties with little/ no problems.

As was quoted earlier DO's and MD's are both medical doctors. In my opinion (and this is just that) I see no difference, much the same as I see no difference in Black, Asian, or Caucasian race--they are all people.

Thank you for your comments. And for all the post who helped clear up the misundertanding.
Diane Evans




[This message has been edited by Diane Ev (edited 06-25-2000).]

 

[Future DOc]

The trend about certain individuals down-playing DOs have been pretty obvious from THREE usual groups:

1) PreMeds (e.g Kristen), 2)IMGs (e.g her husband), & 3)Old School MDs (e.g maybe her husbands collegues)

Although I love hearing good debates about worthwhile topics, it can be very annoying reading comments from individuals who obviously haven't done their homework & lack the substance to back up their comments.

I don't mean to be rude, Kristen, & you are entitled to voice, but please back your comments up with some hard evidence as opposed to the "he said, she said" method. Otherwise, you will get rebuttled harshly by people on this thread....case in point!

Rob
MS III

Last point: Just b/c ONE person spoke negatively about DOs & DO Medical Schools (e.g MBV) doesn't mean it speaks about the MAJORITY.

 

[UHS2002]

BSTHOMAS

boy, I didn't know I was making a formal philosophical argument, I thought I was just replying to an argument "ad ignorance" (did you like this one?! I just made it up on the fly, no relation to the "argumentum ad ignorantiam" of Locke).

Ok buddy, you are on, you want to discuss philosophy, I am game. Last time I looked that was one of the words written on my undergrad degree (oh, did I forget to mention that I also went to grad school in philosophy before I decided to go back to square one, get into the health field and ended up in med school?!), so I think I find myself somewhat qualified to engage in this most rewarding intellectual exercise with you. Gosh, I would hate to think you could have been one of my students...Nope, no way, I am one of the "old farts" here, you were probably still in High School when I was teaching Philosophy in college. So if you want to argue philosophy, aaaaargh, kinda boring you know, all that hair splitting is best left for lawyers and ethics committees, I am game.

So, let's have at it. You call my reply to Kristen an argument ad hominen. I can tell you, in case your philosophy 101 class or logic 101 class didn't cover it, that my reply doesn't qualify as an argument to begin with, in the strict sense of the word, I don't know if you noticed that it doesn't really have a premise nor a conclusion that I claim follows from the premise (while in reality it is a non sequitur) which would then make it impossible to be an argument ad hominen.

So, your first task would be to demonstrate that my reply fulfills the criteria above, that is, that it is indeed an argument. Your second task would be to show that it is a fallacious argument because the conclusion is a non sequitur from the premise.

I am waiting. Haven't done this in years, you know, but I am really ready to roll.

I don't want to be unfair though, If you only took a couple of philosophy classes as an undergrad, you would be wise to drop it now, as I am a very vicious debater. If you took four or five years of philosophy or have a JD degree, let's have at it. By the way, for those folks who are wondering what this last paragraph is all about, this is an hybrid between an argumentum ad baculum and an argument ad verecundiam.

[This message has been edited by UHS2002 (edited 06-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by UHS2002 (edited 06-25-2000).]

 

[Pilot]

No sense fighting amongst ourselves. I think KMMATH took her toys and went home anyhow.

 

[MrAnonymous]

Hello Juliejo,
My opinions are that DO's are just as equivalent to MD's but minor separation according to practice theories. I believe that the COMLEX is as hard as a test as USMLE maybe even a little more difficult due to the broader topic that DO's cover. There is some bias towards DO's from other MD's perhaps they feel threatened by encroaching new medical field. No matter, DO's are here to stay and opinions will change over time. As for why DO's don't have many publications, its probably because they are quite new into the field and haven't been organized like they are today. I respect DO's but I wouldn't want to be on cause of my own personal beliefs. The reason is partly because of a jumbled mix of homeopathy, naturopathy, auras, etc. basically alternative medicine research. I feel that these researches are not done with a premise of non-bias approach but again that's how I feel. There are people who say if you don't believe in alternative medicine in blind faith then you are narrow-minded which is not the case at all if you know me. However alternative medicine should not be dismissed as some are truly excellent treatments (they just need to be research more which is what I advocate) and some have beneficial effects on patients (thus it could be used effectively as complementary procedure). As for your friend, I would encourage her to fullful her dreams, but the choice of either osteopathy or allopathy medicine should be a personal decision in philosophy and beliefs. And not because everyone seems to clamor around osteopathic medicine or someone feels osteopathic medicine is inferior (neither of which hold any validation as they are personal opinions). The answer simply is does your friend (or relative I forget which) have any problems with osteopathic beliefs ans structures.

 

[mj]

Originally posted by MrAnonymous:
There are people who say if you don't believe in alternative medicine in blind faith then you are narrow-minded which is not the case at all if you know me.

Now Mr. A. I retracted my characterization of you as narrow-minded in favor for this one:

par?a?dox [p?rr d?ks ] (plural par?a?dox?es) noun
1. self-contradictory statement: a statement or proposition that contradicts itself
2. person of opposites: somebody who has qualities that seem to contradict each other

My opinion was based on your statements: ?I never meant to imply that conventional medicine was better than alternative medicine? but also ?I DON'T oppose such intervention but I would NEGOTIATE a better primary treatment? Note the word better.

You had me going with the beginning of your post here. I thought you had undergone an epiphany. But, alas, no. In the end the same misinformation:

Originally posted by MrAnonymous:
I wouldn't want to be one cause of my own personal beliefs. The reason is partly because of a jumbled mix of homeopathy, naturopathy, auras, etc. basically alternative medicine research.

I?m amazed that someone who seems to possess at least a modicum of intelligence would continue to believe and argue publicly that the primary tenet of osteopathy is alternative medicine, homeopathy, naturopathy, auras...

wrong [rawng ] adjective (comparative wrong?er, superlative wrong?est)

1. incorrect: not correct or accurate
2. mistaken: holding an incorrect opinion about a person, thing, or matter

I also read your post on UCLA being your top choice with your 3.4 gpa and your 27 MCAT. Paradox fit here as well, but I also liked this one:

im?prac?ti?cal [im pr?ktik'l ] adjective

1. not workable: that will not work effectively or be without problems when put into practice.

I could be wrong, though. Dreams do come true sometimes. Maybe if you went and saw a Buddhist priest for guidance?

Oh, and Mr A. I hope the dictionary lives up to your standards for non-biased information. I chose it as my source document just for you.

mj

 

[MrAnonymous]

Paradox also means True but unexplainable but I guess with my mediocre intelligence that its amazing that I should know that. And yes I do think that the English dictionary is ethnocentric... meaning it is biased. Perhaps you should save your insults because I really don't want to hear your insults. Perhaps others like it, but I for one don't.

 

[mj]

Mr. A.

The goal wasn't to be insulting and I didn't say you had "mediocre intelligence". I said you had "at least" a "modicum".

You want to play nice? I can play nice, but please answer direct questions then:

Please substantiate your claim that the basic tenet of osteopathic medicine is "a jumbled mix of homeopathy, naturopathy, auras, etc. basically alternative medicine research".

If you can't substantiate it, please don't post it anymore and expect it not to be questioned.

mj

 

[kmmath]

Hi. Sorry it took me so long to get back to the board....

I do apologize for the hard feelings that I have created. I think that what I was trying to do was answer this girl's question: Do other allopathic practitioners see DO's as being equal? We all answered that question because yes, my opinions may certainly be colored by my husband's and his colleagues...and they are allopathic practitioners.

Have I ever seen a DO? Yes, as a matter of fact for a long time our pediatrician was a DO and I liked her very much and held her in high esteem. Also, one of my close friends from high school chose DO school over MD school and I respect his abilities! I don't have anything against DO's ... I do know however that when you are being advised about med school that if your grades aren't "up to par" or your MCAT is "weak" that it is suggested that you perhaps try the PA or DO route. This is perhaps "ignorance" on the part of the advisor...but how do you explain that the DO's require lesser grades, etc as their entrance requirements? This is a non-judgemental question. If I were a DO, that would really bother me...and attitudes from people like me would too...but where do I get this "*****ic, baseless" attitude?

Perhaps, in order to be held in the same high regard as allopathic physicians it would be preferable to raise the admissions standards so that those of you who chose osteopathic programs over allopathic programs aren't dragged down by those who got in because they couldn't get into medical school...because those individuals do exist. I do think that osteopathic programs have their benefits but would be hesitant to apply for them because of the opinions that I have run across.

My information regarding USMLE/COMPLEX scores may be found at http://www.usmle.org/oct98/news.perftbl1.htm
One could of course logically argue that the number of DO students taking the exams is quite low and that because the sample size is smaller it doesn't do the statistics any justice.
Attacking my husband's level of competence for attending UF for his fellowship is a little below the belt. My husband chose UF for several reasons including the particular laboratory research project that he is working on but his USMLE Scores and Internal Medicine Board Scores are ALL above the 92nd percentile. (Back when they used percentage ranks!) His competence is not in question and I think that that comment was probably uncalled for. I don't, by the way ever give medical advice...I am not a physician and don't pretend to be.

Should I, a mother of 3 children go into the medical profession? That is a good question. Do I have the intelligence, stamina, drive, energy, motivation, ...yes...would it be the right thing for my family? I don't know the answer to that question yet and it is one of the reasons that I have chosen to wait.
And yes, there are some med school deans that would not admit me for just those reasons....but I would have to recognize that the questions that they raise about balancing the rigors of medical training and managing a family are valid and must be thought about. I can't just dismiss them because I don't like their opinions.

I will go on back to playing with my toys now

Sincerely,

Kris

[This message has been edited by kmmath (edited 06-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by kmmath (edited 06-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by kmmath (edited 06-26-2000).]

 

[MrAnonymous]

I never intended to say that osteopathic medicine basic tenets of practice was based on alternative medicine. I wanted to present one of many key differences between osteopathic and allopathic medicine and why I choose to follow allopathic medicine.

 

[Julie]

I think it is a mis-conceived idea that it is easier (or easy) to get into a DO school. DO school are just as competitive as MD schools. The DO school I start in Aug. has about four applications per seat which was the same as the MD school I was accepted at. So that means that a person has 1/4 chance of getting accepted. (more people get turned down than get accepted for both type of schools)
Yes, most DO schools accept lower gpa's and MCAT scores. But the extra activities, letters of rec., and "life experiences" weigh more than at a MD school. I know someone who had a 33 on the MCAT and a 3.8 gpa but didn't get accepted to the DO school he really wanted to go to. It was because he was 22 and just grad. from undergrad and did not have enough "life experiences".

 

[kmmath]

For those of you that do have more experience with the DO/MD educations...what would you say are the similarities and differences? What factors helped you to lean more in the direction of osteopathic education?

Kristen

 

[UHS2002]

If you take a look at the stats for the most recent incoming classes at osteopathic schools, you will find that, with the exception of 2-3 schools which tend to have lower numbers, these entrance stats are well comparable to the stats of many MD schools and are actually higher than many of the MD schools in the lower tier.

Although there is a misconception among pre-meds and, unfortunately among some pre-med advisors, that DO schools are the alternative for those with lower scores, this is not always the case, as many disgruntled med school applicants find out every year, when their scores don't get them into the "oh so piece-of-cake" DO schools.

DO schools are a valid alternative for people who may have experienced some academic diffculty in the past BUT who have made up for it as they went along. That means: DO schools are a lot more willing than MD schools to consider applicants who may have had a 2.0 in their freshman year and perhaps dropped out of college for a while, but are now applying with a 3.4, after having gotten their priorities straighten out, their personal life in order, more maturity or whatever was that kept them from performing well in college resolved. I see DO schools as the "equal opportunity" subscribers of the medical world.

Admission requirements for DO schools have steadily gone up in recent years to equal MD requirements, with the allowance above mentioned.

DO schools also offer a good alternative for older non-traditional students and "career switchers" such as myself, who are viewed as a "risk" by most allopathic medical schools. DO schools seem to be more willing to take "risk" students, that is, those students that due to age or circumstances, are at more risk for dropping out or failing. We had students at my school who were single parents with several kids. The first year class last year had two female students who delivered days before the beginning of school.

As for the difference in scores between allopathic and osteopathic students on the USMLE, let's face it: schools not only prepare you to go on rotations, they also prepare you for the boards. Which means that they make sure to cover material in such a way as you will see in your specific boards (not different material, mind you, just different presentations of the same material). Furthermore the schedule of classes between MD and DO schools differ somewhat. Consequently, silly as it may sound, it is often the case that DO students end up taking the boards, both COMLEX and USMLE, before they have finished their coursework. Add to that the fact that MD students ONLY take the USMLE, while DO students who choose to take the USMLE have to take the COMLEX too (many of my classmates took them days apart, which is very heavy considering that the COMLEX covers 800 questions, for a total of 16 hours of testing, over two consecutive days and you add on top of that another day to take 350 more question for the USMLE). It may sound silly, why don't they wait?! It will not sound so silly if you take into account that many of these DO students are back in the classroom for another couple of months of classes AFTER taking the boards. This last item should end the misconception that DO students don't cover the same material as their MD counterparts. Since DO students take 250 hours of osteopathic manipulation, which their MD counterparts don't, their school year and lecture time ends up having to be stretched so that the "extra" 250 hours can be fitted into the curriculem somewhere.

DO schools have come a long way in recent years, to make up for lost ground in the past, and you will find their curriculum, admission standards, student body, graduates and faculty to be of comparable caliber to that of allopathic institutions. DO institutions still lag light years behind in research, but not every medical school aspires to be a research institution, be that school osteopathic or allopathic. Traditionally osteopathic schools have been interested in training practitioners rather than researchers, although this is changing rapidly for some schools. Several now offer the DO/PhD degree in conjuction with local Universities or developing research facilities and projects of their own.

 

[kmmath]

I want to apologize to everyone on this board for my rather ridiculous outburst. As I read back over the posts I am embarassed by the judgemental attitude that I took. You were all justified in your anger and I will take that in stride. It was a shocking reflection for me of the point that I have reached in my life lately.

I am frustrated by my role as "mother and doctor's wife". I met my husband in Germany (he's German) and was accepted into med school there. I turned down the opportunity at that time in order to start a family and now..I feel like the train has passed me by, I really do. I combat negative attitudes because of my husband's FMG status and the people around me in my environment..including my MOTHER...say"why medicine...can't you just be a teacher or something"(as if being a teacher isn't an important, demanding job if done right!) The NP in my husband's department told me that I should put this medicine foolishness behind me and just be a stey-at-home mom and spend the money when he finally gets out of training...Profs in my graduate department have passed over me for particular laboratory opportunities because they "fear that I will not be able to get adequate childcare". My physician husband has now adopted the attitude that it takes two people to make one good physician and I shoudln't set my sites on any type of a demanding career be it medicine or anything else. I am so frustrated!!!!!!!!!!!and I took it out on you and I apologize. I would give anything right now to be an MD or a DO.

Please accept my sincerest apologies.

Kristen

 

[MikeS 78]

Ok I'm not about to step into the earlier argument....In my opinion DO's are probably competent physicians, but most likely have a tough time securing pretigious residencies (I have yet find a DO practicing or in residency at MGH, NY presbyterian, or Barnes Jewish)

However lets get real....DO school is significantly easier to get into than allopathic....as a rule. For example compare Oklahoma state College of osteopathic compared to Oklahoma university college of medicine (allopathic)

I choose these two because the schools they are attached to (OU and OSU) are relatively equivalent academically and thus reasonably isolate the variable in question.

OU (MD) Average GPA- 3.5 Average MCAT-28
OSU (DO)Average GPA- 3.3 Average MCAT-24

I have hear of people with as low as a 20 getting into OSU

As to the claim that osteopath schools care more about personal traits, I will make the claim that 1) That is entirely based on personal experience 2)It is significantly harder to ace the mcat than to drive to volunteer 5 hours a week

Yes some osteopath schools have lower acceptance rates than some allopath schools but 4 admissions to 1 spot ratios cannot touch the most competitive allopath schools. For instance UCSF has about 50 to 1 (5300 to 133 spots).
Plus to use acceptance rate as a measure of competiveness is a gross fallacy. The lowest acceptance rate in the nation last year was at boston university (2.0%) which is 1/3 that at Harvard. However I find it hard to view BU a tougher school to get into than Harvard (I mean cmon the ave mcat is about 8 points higher at harvard)

In synopsis, Osteopathic schools are often the back up plan for many students (they were for everyone i know who cried after seeing their mcat's) because the simple fact is that they are much much easier to get into

 

[ewagner]

I don't feel like dealing with you right now, but as for the "prestigious" residencies and the lack of DO's in those residencies...well dude you ain't lookin hard enough. That's all I got to say about that and I don't care to waste my time on you...tough guy.

 

[wheatfarmer]

Wow, those are some pretty big words coming from someone in Oklahoma!

 

[UHS2002]

Well MikeS78, read one of my previous posts and weep, there are DO graduates doing their residency at Barnes. There is a young woman who graduated from my school this year who is starting her residency there. There is also a faculty member at Barnes who is an alumnus of our school and another one, if my memory is not failing me right now after all the studying I have been doing lately, who is an alumnus from the Kirskville school. These are the ones I know of personally and have met.

As for being easier to drive 5 hours to volunteer than acing the MCAT, nobody is talking about DO schools giving extra brownie points for "volunteer work". We are talking about DO schools that don't throw someone's application in the rejection pile because he/she got a 26 on the MCAT (while taking classes at night, working a full time job and having a family). Perhaps that is the kind of people with an MCAT score "as low as a 20" that you are talking about...

As for the difference between 3.3 and 3.5, what is going on, is being a pre-med fried everyones brain cells???? Take the 120 hours minimum required for a bachelor's degree and figure out what the difference between a 3.3 and a 3.5 comes out to be in terms of courses and grades. It can be as little as getting a couple of Bs rather than a couple of A's overall. To be quite honest, I would take the kid with a 3.3 who had to work his way through college over the one with a 3.5 who got an easy ride through and that is what most DO schools do, they actually look at other aspects of your application (wow, incredible, they have people who can read the essays rather than just the numbers!!! The world will never cease to amaze me!).

In case you think I am being too sarcastic, when I applied to med school I was outright sent a rejection letter by a school, which shall remain unnamed, because of a bad grade I had way back. How do I know? I called the dean of admissions and told him I was surprised that I didn't even get an interview when my stats were well within their acceptance range. The dean was kind enough to pull my file and he told me that that grade didn't look good. When I explained the circumstances around it he said they weren't aware of it, it made a difference and that I should reapply to their school next year. It just so happen I had explained the circumstances on my personnal statement, which they obviously hadn't bothered to read... Yes, they would probably have interviewed me if they had been aware of the circumstances of that grade in the first place, but it just so happen that they had a screening system set up in such a way, that certain things ended up straight in the "thanks but no thanks" pile.

[This message has been edited by UHS2002 (edited 06-26-2000).]

 

[buttercup]

UHS2002 is absolutely right, and I, like Kristen, am ashamed to admit that I was until one wek ago very prejudiced against DO schools, thinking them a "backup". Why the turnaround? I'm a Kaplan MCAT instructor now, and one of my students asked me to help them make a list of schools they could, at least in terms of sheer #s, aim for. I thought it was going to be all osteopathic schools at the bottom, but was quite mistaken as it turns out. Most of the schools with lowest #s for GPA and MCATs are, indeed, allopathic (mostly carribean schools from what I saw). It, plus one of my co-workers who will be starting a DO school after leading an already experience-rich life, helped to change my mind.

 

[dlbruch]

There was an article published recently- maybe in JAMA or New England J of Med.- that showed data on MCAT scores, undergrad GPA, and USMLE step one board scores. To sum up briefly, there was virtually no correlation between either total MCAT score (or any individual section) or undergrad GPA and success on boards.

In light of these recent findings, it seems to me that looking at numbers is a silly way of choosing a med school class. The fact that Osteopathic schools read essays, look at life/work/volunteer experiences, try to assess applicants as individuals seems to be a better way to get a feel for who the best physicians will be. I argue that allopathic schools are stubbornly holding onto traditional selection methods while Osteopathic schools are blazing a trail in a new applicant selection paradigm.

 

[MrAnonymous]

Hey dlbruch can you find out when and where that article is. I would like to read it.

 

[MikeS 78]

Yes you can find DO's in prestigious residencies, but the bottom line is for every DO there are 40 MD's. And in surgery residencies they are even more rare......ditch the "circle the wagons" mentality

And by the way, Carribean medical schools????

Since when did we start using Carribean medical schools as the basis of admissions comparison. Several of them have been blacklisted by US residency programs. And to my knowledge there is not a single carribean medical school with an ACGME or AOA accredited residency. Carribean medical schools are notorious in many aspects,(some have been found to be selling MD's to anyone with money) and even the most noble one's are well known to be the last refuge of the rejected.

But to my point I can't remember the exact number but there are around 150 allopathic schools and 10 osteopathic school

Just because you can find one or two MD schools with lower number than a few DO schools does not mean it's harder to get in.

 

[Starflyr]

A couple of things....

1) "people have gotten into the Oklahoma DO school with scores as low as 20"

Ummm...yes, and people get into Southwestern with scores as low as 20 as well. If you go to their webpage and look at the profile for EY1999, the MCAT range was 20-40. They dont have the info for EY2000 up that I could find, but just cause someone scores lower on the MCAT doesnt mean that they wont be as good a physician as someone who scored a 40.

2) Scores dont necessarily reflect how difficult it is to "get in" to a med school...DO or MD. Who is more qualified to attend med school? Someone who is 4 years out of college who has been working in healthcare for those 4 years and has a 28 MCAT(b/c its been a few years since Orgo etc), 3.5 undergrad GPA or someone who is fresh out of college with some volunteer experience, a 35 MCAT and a 3.5 GPA?? The selection criteria are different for MD and DO schools (mostly numbers vs. looking at the whole application), but that doesnt mean that simply because the numbers are lower, the med students are less qualified.

 

[dlbruch]

http://www.am-osteo-assn.org/Publications/JAOA/jaoa.htm

Here is the address for the page where this article can be accessed. My mistake- it was in the journal of the american osteopathic association.

 

[UHS2002]

So, for every DO in a prestigious residency program there are 40 MDs...where did you get your numbers from??? Made them up as you went along...?

 

[myrnafir]

I am of the osteopathy bent. I have always grown up around osteopathy and have come to appreciate the finer art of manipulation. I chose a D.O. school because the philosophy closely mirrors my own, the training is what I am looking for and MD didn't offer the kind of education that I wanted and I felt that it was too research oriented. It's a personal choice- but it's important to weigh your options closely with what you feel you want to be as a physician and what type of education will get you where you need to be.
That is it. That is all.

 

[UHS2002]

Kristen,

your situation sounds very tough, particularly because, at this moment, you lack the support you will need the most to make a go of medical school, that of your spouse. I don't think there is an easy answer to your dilemma, if there is an answer at all. However, there are many people on this board with families and trying to pursue a career in medicine. So, feel free to write and vent, and we will try to be of some support

 

[kmmath]

Thanks for your support....

Kristen

 

[Pilot]

Originally posted by MikeS 78:

However lets get real....DO school is significantly easier to get into than allopathic....as a rule. For example compare Oklahoma state College of osteopathic compared to Oklahoma university college of medicine (allopathic)

I choose these two because the schools they are attached to (OU and OSU) are relatively equivalent academically and thus reasonably isolate the variable in question.

OU (MD) Average GPA- 3.5 Average MCAT-28
OSU (DO)Average GPA- 3.3 Average MCAT-24

Oklahoma State University - Class of 2003 (latest figures available - posted on OSU-COM website)

1,361 applicants
88 accepted
Oklahoma Residents - 76 (86%)
Male - 61%
Female - 39%
Ethnic - 17%

MCAT Avg. 8.85 (26.55)
Overall GPA 3.49
Science GPA 3.39

 

[Julie]

Originally posted by MikeS 78:
Yes you can find DO's in prestigious residencies, but the bottom line is for every DO there are 40 MD's. And in surgery residencies they are even more rare......ditch the "circle the wagons" mentality

There are only 19 DO schools compared to 100 or 125 MD schools. So on shear numbers alone there are going to be more MDs per residency because there are more of them.

 

[Julie]

Originally posted by Julie:

Originally posted by MikeS 78:
Yes you can find DO's in prestigious residencies, but the bottom line is for every DO there are 40 MD's. And in surgery residencies they are even more rare......ditch the "circle the wagons" mentality"

There are only 19 DO schools compared to 100 or 125 MD schools. So on shear numbers alone there are going to be more MDs per residency because there are more of them.

 

[Batamez]

The general tenor of so many recent discussions seems to be to justify why X is better than Y at Z, whether it be DOs, MDs, DCs, PAs, etc. Here Dos are put on the defensive; in another thread, it is DCs. I also find it rather ironic that while perfectly happy to discredit other professionals, people get outraged when similar arguments are made about/against their own. I think it would be interesting to explore what each approach has to offer in terms of prevention and intervention rather than attempt to establish some sort of hierarchy. Even controversial topics regarding issues of 'territory' (should NPs prescribe medications? should DCs screen?) can be disussed with mutual respect, can't they? I'm sure that most practitioners are interested in providing the best care to their patients, and this involves assessing what they can and cannot do (MDs could use a little more humility on this front!). I think it would be extremely interesting to listen to a NP or DC describe why they feel they are competent to take on something that usually falls within the province of the MD, research it more if it interests me futher, and then make a determination about whether or not the reasoning sounds credible. However, having an open discussion with said NP or DC to begin with becomes difficult if one de facto takes the position that such practitioners are unethical upstarts in dubiously effective professions who inflate their own importance in order to aspire to the exalted status/power of MD (or DO or whatever).

Kristen,

I hope that you find a way to do all the things you want to do. Frustration is a horrible feeling and often seems to make people less invested in and effective at the things that they ARE doing. Could you perhaps set aside a discrete amount of time (a day, a half day?) to have a stock-taking with your husband and each express your visions for yourselves, individually, and for your family over the next couple of years and then go from there in formulating a shared vision that is acceptable to you both? Just a thought. Anyway, good luck with whatever it is you decide to do!

 

[MikeS 78]

You want numbers heres some:

From Getting into a residency by Kenneth V Iverson MD (which I highly recommend)

Im going to spit out the number of DO in ACGME (MD) residencies in a few surgical sub specialties as well as cardiology, and dermatology because these are typically the toughest specialties to enter

The 1st number is total number of DO's in an MD residency followed by a percentage of all MD spots occupied by DO's. The numbers came from a joint study by AOA and ACGME

Cardiology- 54: 2% DO
Colon surgery- 0: 0% DO
Dermatology- 11:less than 1% DO
Neurosurgery- 3: less than 1% DO
OB-GYN- 89: 2% DO
Opthamology- 5: less than 1% DO
ENT- 7: less than 1% DO
Orthopaedics- 15: less than 1% DO
Pediatric surgery- 0: 0% DO
Plastics- 3: less than 1% DO
Surgery- 23: less than 1% DO
Thoracic surgery- 2: less than 1% DO
Urology 6: less than 1% DO

Theoretically if all MD residencies were proportionally occupied by DO's, one would expect 10% in all specialties for there are 15 DO schools to 150 MD schools Certainly not 50 to 1 (I'm sorry 40 to 1 was a tad off you were right)

But even in family practice and preventative medicine (DO staples) there are still 15 MD's to every DO (6% DO for both)

Though I dont have numbers on it, I would bet the farm on the fact that none of those DO's in neurosurgery were doing it at MGH or Hopkins

The fact of the matter is that despite whatever you may think, DO's still face prejudices when applying to MD residencies, and even more so with surgery and areas of similiar levels of competition.

You can cry and scream at me and claim that its not true, but welcome to the way it is.

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by wheatfarmer:
Wow, those are some pretty big words coming from someone in Oklahoma!

Wheatfarmer, it's nice to see that you don't reserve your vitriolic comments just for me.

It's hilarious that a guy/girl who calls him/herself "Wheatfarmer," indeed one of the lowest possible jobs around (in your paradigm), would make fun of a guy from Oklahoma!

LOL

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by wheatfarmer:
Wow, those are some pretty big words coming from someone in Oklahoma!

Wheatfarmer, it's nice to see that you don't reserve your vitriolic comments just for me.

It's hilarious that a guy/girl who calls him/herself "Wheatfarmer," indeed one of the lowest possible jobs around (in your paradigm), would make fun of a guy from Oklahoma!

LOL

 

[Royce]

Mike,

Welcome to the fray. There are more dreamers here than can be found at a narcoleptic convention. Check out the other threads and reconsider just how much time you want to spend trying to convince these people that they're in for a rude surprise when match day comes.

 

[mig2k]

Mike: Man you are one bitter SOB! Lighten up bro.

I have that Iserson book too, and if I remember correctly, that table is a couple of years old. Its probably a little/lot better now, although I will admit that most of the hardcore surgical residencies are still run by the "good-old-boys" -- so no DOs. But so what? Most people in the DO profession go primary care anyway. If they dont, they can always apply for the DO residencies. One good thing about being a DO is that you get to apply to both programs, how sweet is that?